In the NIU shooting, guess what's first to blame?

[Raan_Amano]

Ok. As much as I want to avoid flaming (which wasn't my intention), I don't believe every country that doesn't have guns is instantly assaulted. My primary point in all of this is the fact that I'm getting tired of people from other countries talk as if they're somehow superior because they outlawed guns and the US hasn't. That's what annoys me. I don't generally have a problem with foreigners, but I DO have a problem when they decide that they're somehow superior. We have our reasons. If you don't like them, that's your problem.

Oh, and about putting myself in the burglars shoes, if someone is stupid enough to enter my home when myself or my family are there, I'm going to automatically assume that they're there to cause harm anyway. I can't think of any other reason why someone would enter another person's home uninvited while the residents are actually at home. Oh, and since you're not actually from the US, you don't get the fact that we have violent types who will enter your home to kill you for no other reason than as an initiation for a gang.

And no. I don't want a gun to kill burglars. Hell, I don't even have a gun. If my country were to be invaded, I'd sure as hell find one, though. And, unlike some people (I'm talking both foreigners and Americans), I would have balls enough to fight back, right alongside the military.

 

[Raan_Amano]

It's amazing that if an objective person were to compare the number of school massacres in the US to the number in, just as an example, Australia, they'd find that there are none here. And it's not because we play videogames if you know what I mean. It's because the last time there was a gun massacre our PM and the general public were sensible enough to PUT TWO AND TWO TOGETHER AND REALISE GUNS MAKE MASSACRES EASY, NOT VIDJAGAEMS. And then banned them.

Precisely. If your country has arranged things so that a teenager can get his hands on a loaded firearm with ease, than your country has screwed up something awful.

I propose shipping all the intelligent people in America to smarter Western societies before the place sinks like Atlantis under the brunt of its own stupidity.

Thank you, I was starting to feel like the insane gun nuts outnumbered the people who understand that guns equals more violence, not less.

Clearly, we have a different definition of the expression "gun nuts". In America, the gun nuts are the ones who collect so many weapons that the government kept their eye more closely on them than anyone else.

 

[propertyofcobra]

Ok. As much as I want to avoid flaming (which wasn't my intention), I don't believe every country that doesn't have guns is instantly assaulted. My primary point in all of this is the fact that I'm getting tired of people from other countries talk as if they're somehow superior because they outlawed guns and the US hasn't. That's what annoys me. I don't generally have a problem with foreigners, but I DO have a problem when they decide that they're somehow superior. We have our reasons. If you don't like them, that's your problem.

Oh, and about putting myself in the burglars shoes, if someone is stupid enough to enter my home when myself or my family are there, I'm going to automatically assume that they're there to cause harm anyway. I can't think of any other reason why someone would enter another person's home uninvited while the residents are actually at home. Oh, and since you're not actually from the US, you don't get the fact that we have violent types who will enter your home to kill you for no other reason than as an initiation for a gang.

And no. I don't want a gun to kill burglars. Hell, I don't even have a gun. If my country were to be invaded, I'd sure as hell find one, though. And, unlike some people (I'm talking both foreigners and Americans), I would have balls enough to fight back, right alongside the military.

I currently am residing in the US, actually. And I see more "man shot nephew because he thought he was a burglar" than I see "burglar kills man", to be honest. Maybe it's just the part of the US I'm in, or something.

 

[Raan_Amano]

Ok. As much as I want to avoid flaming (which wasn't my intention), I don't believe every country that doesn't have guns is instantly assaulted. My primary point in all of this is the fact that I'm getting tired of people from other countries talk as if they're somehow superior because they outlawed guns and the US hasn't. That's what annoys me. I don't generally have a problem with foreigners, but I DO have a problem when they decide that they're somehow superior. We have our reasons. If you don't like them, that's your problem.

Oh, and about putting myself in the burglars shoes, if someone is stupid enough to enter my home when myself or my family are there, I'm going to automatically assume that they're there to cause harm anyway. I can't think of any other reason why someone would enter another person's home uninvited while the residents are actually at home. Oh, and since you're not actually from the US, you don't get the fact that we have violent types who will enter your home to kill you for no other reason than as an initiation for a gang.

And no. I don't want a gun to kill burglars. Hell, I don't even have a gun. If my country were to be invaded, I'd sure as hell find one, though. And, unlike some people (I'm talking both foreigners and Americans), I would have balls enough to fight back, right alongside the military.

I currently am residing in the US, actually. And I see more "man shot nephew because he thought he was a burglar" than I see "burglar kills man", to be honest. Maybe it's just the part of the US I'm in, or something.

LOL!!! Yeah, probably. There are some pretty violent places here in America. I've been fortunate enough to not live in any of them.

Look. I'll admit that outlawing guns would probably help, but America just isn't conducive to that sort of thing.

 

[SaintSinner]

Hooah.

SFC, ret. 12 yr vet.

Aah, here we go. Deconstructed and then raised and bred on violence, taught that killing is the only true answer, add a bit of light propaganda on the side and fierce blind nationalism. No wonder you think like you do. Now I get it. Nevermind the entire situation here.
I'm against killing, you're all for it. No wonder we disagree.

F#$k off, you moronic a$$hat.

In addition to have multiple combat tours, I also have a Masters degree in Philosophy.

I was raised the son of a State Supreme Court Judge.

I know of no other person who promotes peace more than one who has been in combat.

I've killed, and I'm against it unless there is no other means.

You, you just like to talk a lot of sh!t about something you know nothing about.

Fine, we'll let everyone have guns. When a random mugger gets to his gun before you get to yours, don't come running to me.

The only time I'll come running to you, is when I want to learn the best way to forceably ram my own head up my a$$.

-SS

 

[sammyfreak]

Hooah.

SFC, ret. 12 yr vet.

Aah, here we go. Deconstructed and then raised and bred on violence, taught that killing is the only true answer, add a bit of light propaganda on the side and fierce blind nationalism. No wonder you think like you do. Now I get it. Nevermind the entire situation here.
I'm against killing, you're all for it. No wonder we disagree.

Fine, we'll let everyone have guns. When a random mugger gets to his gun before you get to yours, don't come running to me.


(Note: No, all military people are not automatically violence-loving meatheads. But there sure are a few of them, mainly the ones that think "if you outlaw guns, only outlaws will have guns" is genuinely true and funny.)

Propertyofcobra: You are being very rude and etnocentric. In debates one does not make issues personal, it doesnt serve as an argument and just casts your own point in a negative light. The right to carry guns is rather important for quite a few americans and you need to understand american culture and ideology to understand why.

 

[Raan_Amano]

I will admit that I am not military. Never was, and, God willing, never will be. I do appreciate the men and women in the US Armed Forces. However, I'm more than happy to stand up and fight for my country, should it ever be invaded. And, no, I don't believe everything my government tells me. I think a healthy dose of skepticism when dealing with any government is necessary.

I'm beginning to feel that people from other countries view all Americans as a bunch of gun-nuts who like to start wars. If they see us that way, I'd just like for them to know that we're not all like that. And, I find it highly disrespectful for anyone, of any nationality, to accuse any warrior of any country of being warmongers.

Oh, and SS, you and other members of the military are entirely underpaid.

 

[tiredinnuendo]

This conversation turned ugly fast, didn't it?

I figure what the hell, I'll throw in my two cents.

I have no problems with a society that is allowed to arm themselves. I don't even have a problem (in theory) with a society that allows carry permits. The problem comes when these things occur in a country that is hemorrhaging common sense more and more every day.

I was visiting Arizona, and I watched a buddy of mine (Dustin) get ready to head out one morning. It should be noted that Dustin rides a motorcycle. So I watch him suit up in all his gear, and then spend multiple minutes strapping on his sidearm to make sure that it doesn't move while he's riding. By the time he's done, he's got this chunk of heavy metal strapped to his leg in a manner that must've restricted mobility, but whatever. Then he goes off.... to run errands.

A little while later he comes back and goes through the whole process of taking the gun off and I just couldn't take it.

"Dustin," I says, "what in the hell are you doing? You look like a jackass with that thing on."
"I've got a permit for it, it's legal."
"It's legal for me to wear squid as a hat, but it would be uncomfortable, I wouldn't use it, and it would make me look like a jackass too. Who's going to mug you in this town? There's forty people in it and you know them all on a first name basis."

So yeah, I have no problem with his right to carry a gun. I do, however, take issue with him not feeling manly if he doesn't have it. And that's the core of my whole problem with guns. If they could be approached responsibly by the majority of the people who would actually want them, that might be something. But most of the people I know who actively want to buy guns appear to believe either: a) it is a toy --or-- b) it will make them more manly.

And you don't want people like that armed.

- J

EDIT: I also know people who are into hunting, but they usually don't buy handguns. I personally own a gun for home defense, and aside from when I clean it and the very rare trip to a firing range to keep it primed, it is locked away and never seen. Aside from my wife, no one is even aware that I have it. I'm not saying I'm anti-guns, clearly, as I own one. I'm anti-people-who-should-not-own-guns, and I'm of the belief that most people fall into that group.

 

[propertyofcobra]

Propertyofcobra: You are being very rude and etnocentric. In debates one does not make issues personal, it doesnt serve as an argument and just casts your own point in a negative light. The right to carry guns is rather important for quite a few americans and you need to understand american culture and ideology to understand why.

I'm aware. Being double-teamed in any argument very easily brings out the worst in a person. The list of things that suck more than being ganged up on in an argument is short and generally reads something like "Yo mama jokes", "hitler comparisons", "escalation to physical violence".

And I believe that the need to carry guns is part of America having an extremely short and bloody history, compared to most countries. Most civilized nations can count the wars they've been in in the past hundred years on one hand, while the US has had, what, half of it's wars in that same timeframe?

 

[Melaisis]

Bah. News Corp and I have a special relationship: I go on MySpace, and it talks trash about my hobbies, blaming them for the downfall of society whilst all the time hosting the infamous British show Skins on the aforementioned social network. Ironically, the TV show consists of wonderful, 'topical' themes such as depression, suicide, advocating drug use and mediocre romance in adolescents; subjects games would never brave for the obvious risk of being branded the Devil. But FOX still allow it on, technically, their site? Yeah, its fine though, 'cause its just TV, right?

Of course I won't point out how just a few decades ago television was a scapegoat for every damn 'evil' on the planet, because it goes without saying. Oh, but I said it anyway. Whatever. The point is, these corporations will never cease to be the fountain of hypocrisy they are simply because it brings in the views. After all, inconsistency doesn't matter if there's no one around to point it out. Let's face it, most of these media outlets are read and watched by a very large percentage of people, but I like to think that most of them have the sanity not to believe everything they say. Hopefully.

On the other hand, I personally can't wait for the day when a black, Scottish cyclops blows up a school proclaiming 'They gonna have to but yoo back togethah; IN HELL!'

Touch wood.

 

[ZenMonkey47]

I think the American time line of blame goes like this:
Witches: They prance around on the solstice and weigh as much as a duck! What more proof of their moral degradation do you need?!

Foreigners: Arguably, this one hasn't gone away away. Especially not in Japan (I have more than a few stories on that, but that's another rant all together)

Masturbation: A pretty major one at the turn of the 18th century (but heroin, cocaine, hash, and good ol tobacco are good for you at this point in history). Even being suspected of such could get a person fired (assuming they didn't go blind first), and the devices designed to prevent the act would make an inquisitor flinch.

Dancing: Hey! You're moving somewhat in time with music! Get'em!

Lipstick: You're a McDonald not a whore!

Marijuana: Youtube Reefer Madness. The mockumentry Showtime did with the same name is worth a watch as well.

Rock and Roll: I read in a Christian comic book (why do they insist on giving the rest of us a bad name?!) that they use the same drum beats as African witchdoctors. Speaking of which...

Comic Books: Words, now with pictures! 50% more evil!

Dungeons and Dragons: Dice and overpriced rulebooks will drive you to Satanism and suicide. It's true, Jack Chick (again, giving the rest of us a bad name) said so.

Rap: Cop Killa by Ice Cube (who now plays a cop on TV. Take THAT irony!)

Video Games: It's like a murder simulator, without the murder or the simulator.

So to make a long story short, people have been robbing and killing people LONG before either video games or gunpowder were invented and will continue to do so. Afterwards the mob media will blame it on whatever happens to be popular at the time, and "experts" will come out of the woodwork to confirm those beliefs (Wizard's First Rule) It's happened since before I was born and I'll expect it to happen long after I'm dead.

 

[Girlysprite]

Games are also such easy scapegoats because nowadays, about every youngster plays games. So naturally, (almost) every killer will have played games. So concluding something about games and shootings would be like; all highschool shooters have 2 arms; thus 2 arms is evil; lets all amputate an arm.

ps- as a side note; Im another European twat, but even *I* have grown tired of the ol' bash America thing.

 

[Raan_Amano]

I don't give to craps about the whole "Blame the Game" thing. Until American polititions get it into their mind that making guns legal for everyone is a bad thing, I don't give to craps. They have never been attacked and everyone who says "we all have the right to protect ourselves" is just an ignorant redneck who just wants to shoot some kid trespassing his fence to get this soccer ball.

Who killed the students? The guns or the games? It's like forbidding needles to stop drugs.

Take away the gun, not the powder!

I'm not a redneck. I'm Native American (not completely, but in part). And yes, ALL human beings have the right to protect themselves. And the fact that you see all people who say that they have the right protect themselves as ignorant rednecks shows your own ignorance. I've met more than enough people of any race, religion, etc, that agree. While outlawing guns in your own countries may work for you, it doesn't necessarily mean that it would work for America. The general consensus with the people I know is this: Even IF America outlawed all guns today, it would be virtually impossible to round up all the guns and dispose of them.

I totally agree with ZenMonkey and Girlysprite. Killing has always taken place, and probably always will. Girlysprite made me think of another argument. The fact is that people who are anti-game seem to have already came up with a "profile" for gamers. Apparently, all gamers are teenage to 20 year old males with serious emotional problems and play games to "rehearse" crimes.

 

[laikenf]

I'm tired of everyone blaming the games for sh*t. You'd think that they would actually research things and realize that it was the fact that the guy quit taking his medication. What is it with people and their need to ignore facts like that? Basically, the guy was a nutjob to begin with, and shouldn't have been let around a game. Apparently, people don't want to blame mental illness for it, though. Why? Because you can't sue a mental illness. You can't retaliate against a mental illness. So what next? Blame a person, or a company, or a hobby that had nothing to do with the person having the mental illness in the first place.

And, as an aside, I'm getting tired of people outside the US telling us to outlaw guns. Remember that. When your country gets invaded by a foreign power, we'll have this discussion again.

Usually the military deals with invaders, not peasants and citizens with shot guns.

 

[Cooper42]

The thing is with the US and guns, which most of us Europeans / Canadians / Auzzies etc. will never understand is that it's not just about 'protecting your home and family' from random violent criminals (who will likely also be carrying a gun because, well, they can...), it's because although they most don't really believe it's likely - it's possible, just - that the government, police and military might turn against them.

Despite the patriotism, there seems to be a deep-seated mistrust of governmental agencies. Who have guns. The logic thus follows: If the populations has guns, the governmental agencies are less likely to screw them over.

Basically, you never know when you might have to pop a cap in King George's ass.

 

[Hengst2404]

People who take these issues and turn them into Anti-American rants, well you cannot really reach those folks, not through reason and logic, nor through anger and vitriol. As someone who has worked in Law Enforcement for over 9 years now I have seen plenty of folks on both sides of the gun issue. I have yet in my 9 years to see somebody killed by an actual gun. In my experience guns are fired by people, sometimes by accident and sometimes in anger and sometimes out of necessity, but always by a person.

People have found ways to kill others for thousands of years, we have just gotten more efficient with technology and found easier ways to do it. If it wasn't guns, it would be improvised explosive devices or knives or poison or some other means of killing others. You really think these disturbed kids becomes killers because of guns? Seems to me like they become ill and look for a means to cause harm to others and merely look for an accessible route to accomplish that.

As the actual issue dealt with Counterstrike being blamed for this tragedy, well its far easier to blame videogames or gun laws then it is to focus on the fact that it was a man off his meds who did the killing. Just as people on these boards use theses tragedies as a way to knock Americans and American gun laws, our pundits look for likely scapegoats in these incidents.

 

[xMacx]

Yes, criminals fearing violence against them from their inteded victims is a good thing. If you don't think it is, you're a retard.

I've always found this to be a bit of a logical fallacy - more from people who haven't lived with/understand the mentality of those who choose to live in a manner that breaks the law. Your quote may reflect your personal outlook on criminals fearing violence.

Let me frame it in another way - if you're a professional criminal, you may have already decided that you like being a bad ass. You may like being a predator, and may look at the segment of society as a bunch of sheep. To that extent, the only thing that makes you wary is if the sheep has a gun. But if you have a gun, too, then the sheep's not so tough.

I don't know if that explains it that well, but it was a common occurence when I was coming up. Growing up in an area with a lot of illegal guns, you see it regularly. You know the guy down the street breaks into houses, and someone in the neighborhood said to him "If you come up in my house, I'm going to put a hotball in you." Then the guy who breaks into houses started carrying a gun, and he wasn't shy about letting people now. Then all of us were a little less safe. It's not as clean as criminals being scared. If crime's what you do, then odds are you think people should be scared of you, not the other way around.

A second example; a guy attempted to break in my house while I happened to be home (crappy neighborhood, I know). He came in (no gun), and I ran him off with a quickness. Neighbors heard the noise and called the police. He got picked up at the end of the corner. Now if I had a gun then, I might have used it. If he had a gun, he might have used it. But instead, the situation got handled with nobody dying & without me getting arrested along with him.

I don't think it's as simple as banning guns, but I don't think it's nearly as simple as your statement, either.

Apparently, you would. I choose a government where people frankly don't have a choice to shoot me in the head, but that's me, personally. Less people able to shoot me in the skull is a good thing for me.

Yeah, because no one is a victim of a gun related violent crime in Canada, the UK, or Australia...

-SS[/quote]

http://www.who.int/violence_injury_prevention/violence/world_report/en/annex.pdf

World Health Organization Annual report - page 322. Compare our nation's firearm related homicides to any country you want. And the numbers are staggeringly lower for all the other countries you mentioned. Your last point doesn't really hold water as a comeback.


And like Sammy said, try to keep it civil. It's all opinion at the end of the day, and sometimes its fun to argue and see how well your points stand up to other's point of view.

 

[VikingRhetoric]

I don't see why forbidding guns should not work for America.

Because 9 times out of 10, it's not a legally owned gun that commits a crime.Sure, every once in a while, so nutjob buys a gun through legal means to shoot people with, but all that calls for is a psych test before you can purchase a gun.

Guns and games don't kill people, people do.A gun is nothing more than a paperweight until someone picks it up and uses it.I find it odd that the same people saying "Blaming video games is just a way of shifting the blame off of the real problem" think it's okay when they do the same things with guns.My guns have never killed anyone while I've owned them, and chances are good they never will.

Banning all guns is not only impossible to do in america, it's also quite idiotic to suggest.America is far too large for it to be effective or properly enforced.It's the equivalent of banning all cars because some nut can get in one and kill far more people than they could with a gun.