"Internalizing the Oppression"

[Sigmund Av Volsung]

I thought that article was nonsense because it ignored cultural norms and the fact that a US organisation was imposing itself into other cultures.

I don't believe that games, or ones including unrealistic body types that aren't balanced or stylised(see: Street Fighter) are one of the central influences in that social web of what is normal and what isn't.

Across cultures, archaeologists and historians have found enough overlap to suggest that there are quasi-universal traits that are seen as attractive, such as emphasised hips, curvature and breasts.

Games like DoA are just an extension of said cultural tendencies. I don't know if they're harmful by themselves, but I always felt personally that idealised images as presented by media(speaking as a male here) were more like the final blow rather than the ones insinuating self-hate.

If someone is in a group, or community, or what have you, that doesn't judge based on physical appearances, and you're accepted in it and you feel equally valued, chances are, that those external motivators present in the media wouldn't affect you. I think it's all a lot more low-level than what the article suggested.

 

[The Lunatic]

"Internalized Oppression". Also known as "Yes, I know I'm wrong, but, actually you are".

Honestly, It's always seemed like a very laughable term. It's only really employed when all other arguments have proved fruitless and is essentially a nebulous and meaningless term, which the user seems to expect people to accept as facts.

Much like a conspiracy theory yelling "Aliens!", I've yet to really find much merit to it.

 

[Pseudonym]

So I got called out with the title the other day during a discussion on another board resulting from the article on the Escapist (Link [http://www.escapistmagazine.com/forums/read/7.880084-Female-Game-Characters-Photoshopped-to-Average-American-Proportions]) about body images.

The short version of the discussion? "You're a terrible, troubled person for accepting and internalizing society's expectations of people."

Longer version:

So during the debate on the mentioned images, it came up that I didn't disagree with the original interpretations of the characters as being fairly reasonable and not out there by that much; though I am willing to admit that MAYBE the busts on them are a bit too big for the average woman. It went back and forth for a bit until it got to this;

"Yeah, but they're still completely unrealistic."

(Me) "No they're not. If we're excluding the obviously stylized ones like the Gerudo, most of these are perfectly obtainable and healthy for real women and women would actually be doing themselves a favor by trying to look more like them. They're obtainable by little more than mild exercise and a proper diet. Just because you don't want to put in the barest goddamn effort to take care of yourself and look decent doesn't mean you get to ***** about the expectations of society when any actual though on the standards would show they're not completely arbitrary and aren't unrealistic, or at least within the realm of possibility.

I mean, if you don't WANT to, thats fine. Its your choice and we have to respect that. But just because you choose NOT to try, or got unlucky and can't conform, does not make society wrong, or the "standard" any less desirable. I can't meet the standard of attractive for men basically at all - I don't exercise enough, and even if I did my face is pretty messed up from almost a decade of acne and pimples wrecking it. But I don't ***** at the system for not making the standard more like me - I understand that I got unlucky with my face, and that I don't feel like putting in the effort to look better, so I'm not going to go ripping the system and trying to force it to include me."

Then the line from above, and the conversation was over.

I've skimmed through the thread you linked with the search function at hand and I haven't found the conversation you spoke of. Could you link me to the specific comment where you were called a bad person and were told you were internalising societies standards? Or at least tell me on which page you were called that? I've searched through 17 pages and couldn't find it.

On topic: what actually is the topic?

 

[TwistednMean]

"Internalized Oppression" seems like something that can easily be used to dismiss what someone says, in a way that's hard to defend against. In particular it would be a way to silence someone in your own minority group that isn't agreeing with you.

This.
"Internalized oppression" roughly translates as "shut up, only my opinion is valid, because I know what's best for everyone".

Society sets unrealistic expectations for both men and women. You only need a certain level of maturity to realize that you won't become He-man or James Bond or Christian Grey. That people in real life look different from their movie counter-parts. That love and friendship in real life rarely live up to the expectations set in fiction.

Does it mean that there is a problem and we have to change fiction to lower our expectations instead of being mature and striving to be as close as our ideal as can be? I hope you don't believe that.

 

[Paragon Fury]

So I got called out with the title the other day during a discussion on another board resulting from the article on the Escapist (Link [http://www.escapistmagazine.com/forums/read/7.880084-Female-Game-Characters-Photoshopped-to-Average-American-Proportions]) about body images.

The short version of the discussion? "You're a terrible, troubled person for accepting and internalizing society's expectations of people."

Longer version:

So during the debate on the mentioned images, it came up that I didn't disagree with the original interpretations of the characters as being fairly reasonable and not out there by that much; though I am willing to admit that MAYBE the busts on them are a bit too big for the average woman. It went back and forth for a bit until it got to this;

"Yeah, but they're still completely unrealistic."

(Me) "No they're not. If we're excluding the obviously stylized ones like the Gerudo, most of these are perfectly obtainable and healthy for real women and women would actually be doing themselves a favor by trying to look more like them. They're obtainable by little more than mild exercise and a proper diet. Just because you don't want to put in the barest goddamn effort to take care of yourself and look decent doesn't mean you get to ***** about the expectations of society when any actual though on the standards would show they're not completely arbitrary and aren't unrealistic, or at least within the realm of possibility.

I mean, if you don't WANT to, thats fine. Its your choice and we have to respect that. But just because you choose NOT to try, or got unlucky and can't conform, does not make society wrong, or the "standard" any less desirable. I can't meet the standard of attractive for men basically at all - I don't exercise enough, and even if I did my face is pretty messed up from almost a decade of acne and pimples wrecking it. But I don't ***** at the system for not making the standard more like me - I understand that I got unlucky with my face, and that I don't feel like putting in the effort to look better, so I'm not going to go ripping the system and trying to force it to include me."

Then the line from above, and the conversation was over.

I've skimmed through the thread you linked with the search function at hand and I haven't found the conversation you spoke of. Could you link me to the specific comment where you were called a bad person and were told you were internalising societies standards? Or at least tell me on which page you were called that? I've searched through 17 pages and couldn't find it.

On topic: what actually is the topic?

I bold'd the important part; the conversation I'm referring to wasn't on the Escapist; the news post FROM the Escapist started the discussion on the other board.

 

[The Almighty Aardvark]

It was always more of a matter of what the ideal was, than the real/unrealism for me.

For men, the ideal is cool, hardened and muscular. The appearance of someone who is strong and capable.

For women, the ideal is tits. The appearance of someone who's attractive to male (and some female) gamers.

EDIT: As an additional note, almost everyone I've known with videogame sized boobs has hated them. They cause back issues, they're uncomfortable, and they get in the way. As well, my aunt got breast reduction surgery, my girfriend only has moderate sized breasts and she'd be happier if they were gone. I'm pretty sure that head sized breasts is a lot more of an ideal for guys than it is for girls.

 

[Dizchu]

For women, the ideal is tits. The appearance of someone who's attractive to male (and some female) gamers.

EDIT: As an additional note, almost everyone I've known with videogame sized boobs has hated them. They cause back issues, they're uncomfortable, and they get in the way. As well, my aunt got breast reduction surgery, my girfriend only has moderate sized breasts and she'd be happier if they were gone. I'm pretty sure that head sized breasts is a lot more of an ideal for guys than it is for girls.

I'm not sure about your analysis here. Breasts above a certain size often attract knee-jerk criticism, accusations of "male gaze" and often misogynistic body-policing. It's the same reason why women who get breast augmentations often get accused of doing it to attract men and that they could never actually be doing it for their own benefit. Maybe this is a hypocritical attitude? There's like a simultaneous fetishization and shaming of breasts (which is why female nipples are deemed more controversial than eviscerated corpses).

As I said before, body shape isn't the problem with female representation in video games, it's usually their clothing (or lack thereof) or even worse, their portrayal as characters.

 

[Pseudonym]

I bold'd the important part; the conversation I'm referring to wasn't on the Escapist; the news post FROM the Escapist started the discussion on the other board.

Sorry, I read over that part somehow despite reading other parts of your post several times. Whilst you don't have to link to your posts outside the escapists if you don't want to (or is it just against forum rules?) I prefer to read the original conversation, which was apparently quite heated, rather than one of the participants reports on it.

In any case, if somebody calls you a terrible person it is clear they don't want to engage you seriously anymore. Saying that someone internalises anything doesn't do much. Opinions don't become any more true or false by being internalised.

I suppose I might add something to the issue at hand. I do think there are some reasons to give why having unrepresentatively skinny or attractive looking people is not always a good thing besides societal norms it enforces which may or may not be undesirable. For one, it pulls me out of the experience sometimes. When I play a game or watch a movie or whatever I don't want it to have to break its own rules or follow rules which are obviously not the rules of the universe I'm playing in. Depending on genre and a bunch of other factors this can be a greater or lesser offense. In some cases, things put in feel like blatant fanservice which reminds me of factors outside of the world portrayed and in most cases that isn't a good thing. In the same way that I don't like when all the main charactars have a main charactar shield where they can't be hit by bullets as long as the storyteller doesn't want them to. In the same way it bothers me when too many of the charactars are all strangely attractive. Now sometimes there is an explanation for this. In some movies or books or games a specific society or part of society is portrayed where people are disproportionately attractive for some reason. However, when nothing is said on the matter I assume the world portrayed to work more or less like our own with uglier and prettier people walking around. When everyone (or everyone of one gender) looks very pretty that can on occasion weird me out. (game of thrones had that effect on me)

 

[Erttheking]

So is this thread just going to be turning into a repeat of the photoshopped pictures thread? Because this doesn't really feel like anything that wasn't already gone over in that thread.

As for your point, here's the thing. The ideal woman commonly shown in media? That woman is eye candy at best and a fuck toy at worse. My best friend is a woman and you know what she wants? Muscles. Not a slim waist, not big tits, not flowing long hair, she wants to have muscles. MEN want women to have slim waists, big tits and flowing long hair. Let's stop treating ideal forms like they're anything less than bullshit, for men and women alike. It's rooted back in caveman times where we make ourselves more appealing for a potential mate, a novelty that's worn out its welcome. I thought not focusing too much on appearances was something we all learned when we were very young.

That and can we please show something other than the perfectly ideal woman in media? Fuck's sake, I love beautiful women, but seeing them around every single corner in media is getting BORING.

 

[Aerevolt]

The problem with saying "women could look like this if they just put in a little effort" is that it's bullshit.

Most people don't have the time/discipline/energy/desire to look like a cartoon character. After all, who is it we women have to be that thin for?

There is also the problem of not being able to target where your body loses fat. People have different body types that no amount of exercise will allow for the images you selected as "realistically attainable". As most women in the world are pear-shaped they would also have much smaller breasts if they did have that small a waist.

 

[Rahkshi500]

(Comment removed by poster)

 

[Yuuki]

As for your point, here's the thing. The ideal woman commonly shown in media? That woman is eye candy at best and a fuck toy at worse. My best friend is a woman and you know what she wants? Muscles. Not a slim waist, not big tits, not flowing long hair, she wants to have muscles.

Good for her. But it's best not to label female models as "eye candy" or "fuck toys" while making it sound like your friend is an inherently better person for wanting muscles.

MEN want women to have slim waists, big tits and flowing long hair. Let's stop treating ideal forms like they're anything less than bullshit, for men and women alike. It's rooted back in caveman times where we make ourselves more appealing for a potential mate, a novelty that's worn out its welcome. I thought not focusing too much on appearances was something we all learned when we were very young.

Hmm. I can't even begin to come up with a response to this, so I will only ask one question to you: Do you believe in evolution and biology? I'm really hoping you say "no" because then your statements will be easy to understand.

 

[Yuuki]

The problem with saying "women could look like this if they just put in a little effort" is that it's bullshit.

Most people don't have the time/discipline/energy/desire to look like a cartoon character. After all, who is it we women have to be that thin for?

Why not ask that question to fellow women who put in time/effort to exercise and eat healthy?

In the last month I started going to the gym (for the first time in my life) and my jaw almost hit the floor because like 70% of the treadmills and cross-trainers had women on it. I love there is suddenly so much emphasis on female fitness.

It can only mean good things...I just hope those girls are eating healthy and aren't trying to starve themselves (or binge on junk food).

There is also the problem of not being able to target where your body loses fat. People have different body types that no amount of exercise will allow for the images you selected as "realistically attainable".

There are many exercises to target all parts of the body. Of course people come in all shapes and sizes, but it's about looking as good as YOU can. That's what people (in general) appreciate.

 

[lacktheknack]

I'm on team "Stop Talking And Start Doing".

It's hardly your business how heavy someone is. If they don't give a rip what you think, then deal with it.

It's up to you what YOU look like. The end.

And as for it being unhealthy, well, America doesn't have universal healthcare, so they don't get to fuss about it.

(Bonus Annoyance: I'm sick and tired of people saying that "With some effort, you too can look healthy and slim!" It's false. I put in a ton of effort and work for months, and what happened? My thighs shrank slightly and my weight went UP rather than down. Because that's how my body works. Wanna know what finally got me to lose weight? Laying on a straw mat, unable to eat, vomiting all over the place about sixteen or seventeen times a day. Lost 36 pounds in ten days, and continued to lose another forty during the six-month recovery up to this point. The weight isn't coming back, either. Guess what? WAS NOT WORTH IT.)

 

[visiblenoise]

I honestly don't understand what the problem is if I've been brainwashed into finding the slim figure more attractive. There's no shortage of them, and they're not constantly complaining about having to keep fit.

Slim and/or fit guys are also quite unanimously better looking than someone with a beer belly, and we all get put under the same pressure to look like that. Maybe it's just that men are more capable of not giving a shit than women.

 

[Fox12]

So you got angry and went on a rant?

Look, no ones saying that there can't be beatiful characters in fiction. No ones saying there can't be athletic characters in fiction. Heck, if you're character kills dragons for a living then it makes sense that they would be as fit as Tifa.

But the tendency is for everyone to look like that ideal all the time. What matters is that a person is comfortable with their own image independent of what society says. Personally, I don't care that much, but it would be nice to have more Breanne of Tarths and Quasi Modo's out there. For diversities sake.'its boring when everyone looks like Barbie.

The problem is that people always get upset when you criticize their fictional fap material.

 

[Erttheking]

Snip

Where did I say that she was a better person? I didn't. And I was referring to fictional media where characters are designed. (Then again there was that period where movie stars starved themselves to make themselves look unrealistically thin, so maybe I shouldn't narrow it down)

I don't really know how I can believe in biology. Isn't that basically like believing in geology?

I suppose yes. A professor told me something very interesting at one point. He more or less said that our DNA still thinks we're in caveman times. Our DNA is at still at the point where it thinks we need to eat everything we see because we might have to go long periods without food and sleep for long periods of time so that we can chase down animals to kill and eat. When we figured out how to grow food and started forming agricultural societies, we didn't need to do that anymore, but our DNA can't change on the turn of a dime (The Stone age lasted for over three million years. It's been over for 10,000 years at max). Doesn't help that the human capacity to innovate basically only got faster and faster, especially when the industrial revolution happened. In short, evolution couldn't keep up with human innovation and we still have a lot of quirks from the stone age, like thinking we need to eat a lot because our DNA thinks that we need to go hunting for the next meal. Said professor said that's why obesity rates are so bad in first world countries.

Then again, I don't think we really need to go into this in order to realize looking more attractive to the opposite sex has its roots in trying to attract a mate. Kind of something that goes without saying.

 

[Azure23]

My favorite part of this while dumb thing is everybody becoming an expert nutritionist/BMI calculator with a minor in physical education all of a sudden. It's been really fun seeing people pull all these justifications outta their ass about why Riku is "a total whale after this shop." Also fun? When some well meaning people use pop culture characters to warn teens with body image issues about the danger of eating disorders, a bunch of gamers (who, let's be honest, probably didn't bother to read the attached article and probably weren't the audience) decide to throw shit fits because it doesn't somehow also please them.

Seriously. That shit was fucking harmless, go read the article. I expect it's basic rhetoric of "media effects people, don't hurt yourself pursuing a body image, be healthy and love yourself" will piss off true believers who take affront to even such benign forms of social advocacy. But it's main thrust- eating disorders are bad, pursue health healthily, love yourself, and here's a bunch of resources if you or a loved one is suffering from a disorder? Pretty innocuous stuff really.

You know what? I'm gonna turn this on it's head, the folks over at Bulimia.com just thought to themselves one day, "gaming is getting to be pretty diverse these days yeah? And demographic info suggests that the age range of men (10-15% of eating disorders, from the national association of anorexia nervous and associated disorders) and women playing them are at risk for harmful disorders, we should do an article focused on that." And lo and behold, an article came forth, along with a group of pictures of mixed quality. Anyway, there we go. This happened because we're getting better, happy ending.

 

[Yuuki]

Then again, I don't think we really need to go into this in order to realize looking more attractive to the opposite sex has its roots in trying to attract a mate. Kind of something that goes without saying.

That seems to contradict what you said here:

MEN want women to have slim waists, big tits and flowing long hair. Let's stop treating ideal forms like they're anything less than bullshit, for men and women alike. It's rooted back in caveman times where we make ourselves more appealing for a potential mate, a novelty that's worn out its welcome. I thought not focusing too much on appearances was something we all learned when we were very young.

You called ideal forms bullshit. Even though it's a fact that getting closer to ideal forms = more likely to be healthy and have good genetics = more likely to produce genetically healthy offspring = more attractive = entire race continues to refine itself.

That cycle isn't about to stop anytime soon just because a few Tumblr/Twitter folk decided to get noisy.

The only way you will truly get rid of ideal forms is to remove every single variation in humans that makes us unique, make everyone 100% identical (no genders/races). Only then will there truly be no "ideal form" as nobody will have anything to aspire to, everyone will look identical and their standards and expectations will be identical.

Even dogs have ideal forms that humans desire (hence dog shows).

 

[The Almighty Aardvark]

I'm not sure about your analysis here. Breasts above a certain size often attract knee-jerk criticism, accusations of "male gaze" and often misogynistic body-policing. It's the same reason why women who get breast augmentations often get accused of doing it to attract men and that they could never actually be doing it for their own benefit. Maybe this is a hypocritical attitude? There's like a simultaneous fetishization and shaming of breasts (which is why female nipples are deemed more controversial than eviscerated corpses).

As I said before, body shape isn't the problem with female representation in video games, it's usually their clothing (or lack thereof) or even worse, their portrayal as characters.

I'll admit I'm not 100% sure what you're disagreeing with here, I'll give this my best shot though.

I completely realize that there's huge misconceptions with the idea that women make themselves attractive for men. It's admittedly something that took me a little while to get as well. I certainly am not claiming that there aren't women who associate large breasts with beauty, however there are lots of women who think the exact opposite. I have another friend who loves playing seductress characters, but she always plays characters with small breasts because she has massive breasts and she hates them. As well, look at "Most beautiful women" lists made for women's magazines. Cursory glances through them show that breast size really doesn't factor in as a focus. Likewise, that men and women have rather different standards for what makes a woman beautiful.

Now this is just my personal experience, so feel free to disregard it, but out of all of my female gaming friends, not one of them considers breasts the size of watermelons as a physical ideal. And all of them recognize the massive discomfort you'd have being acrobatic with breasts that large, and typically uncontained by any sort of bra. My girlfriend has relatively small breasts and she laments on how uncomfortable was the one time she decided to bike without a bra.

You can also find articles on how uncomfortable it is to run with larger breasts, and most of the characters do far more than that. I know so many people who cringe when they see the animations for Dead or Alive because of how god damn painful it looks.

I'm definitely not disagreeing with you that nobody should be shamed for their breast size. Nor about their clothing or portrayal as characters. The latter is by far my biggest issue as well. That being said, I still think that there is a problem that the extent of the female ideal portrayed in a large portion of games is sexual appeal. Maybe put something else in there every now and then?