Oh, a reply. I didn't realize that. Been busy. Anyway, I'm glad I can interact.
gandhi the peacemake said:
Why such a defensive tone? It seems I've struck a nerve. Well, you make some perfectly valid points; I don't think they rebut my argument (insofar as I have one; like I said, a lot of this is just a sort of thought exercise, an untested hypothesis), but they're valid points all the same.
Did I? Maybe because I think you're underestimating the audience's (Japanese, in this case) intelligence or ability to differentiate between fantasy/fiction and reality. I'm already tired of people accusing games and anime "poisoning" the kids, yet here you are with similar comments to those people.
gandhi the peacemake said:
I'm well aware of suspension of disbelief: the ability of the audience to accept that the world of the story operates on different rules than our own. However, this ability is limited, perhaps more limited than audiences like to think. Those worlds are themselves relevant to our world, with our multitudinous value sets; they do not exist in a vacuum, even though we might assume and treat them as if they do.
So what? The anime shows that you're talking about already did their homework by building a universe different from ours with different morals and values. Furthermore, those series themselves still condemn the act of violence such as beatings, rape, killings, even robbing and stealing. In series like Naruto, One Piece or Bleach, the MCs are all peace-loving teenagers. They only do violence for training or because they are provoked or they see some bad guys doing violence to other innocent people and they want to stop them or fighting against tyranny. Context is important. Do people blame police officers when they arrest killers and robbers with some force or when they shoot at terrorists? Do people blame the young soldiers of Allied Forces during WW2 for blasting Nazi soldiers' asses in the past? How about Luke Skywalker in Star Wars who killed dozens (if not hundreds) of Imperial officers by blasting the Death Star? You wanna blame his character and the story too? You might wanna blame every work of fiction which has young protagonists fighting their enemies with violence in a kill-or-be-killed and survival situation while you're at it.
Since you prefer the colorful, cheerful, glamorous and Disney-ish Macross to Gundam, do you want every real-robot shows to be "Disney-fied" like that?
gandhi the peacemake said:
I could argue that because the robots are glamorized, the characters behind them are as well, to an extent. There is, after all, a pattern of mecha anime associating specific mecha with specific characters. The two are tied together; depicting one depicts the other, to an extent. Break the Gundam, and you break the character, to an extent. Upgrade the Gundam, and you upgrade the pilot, to an extent. Depict the Gundam in a cool pose, and you depict the character as a cool character. To an extent.
However the work treats something, it's how the world OUTSIDE that work treats that same something that matters here. These Gundam designs are made to look "cool," to appeal to and more importantly affect OUR sensibilities, not necessarily that world's.
Just because something is done to achieve one goal doesn't mean it doesn't achieve others. If I drain a lake to make space for more urban development, I am also displacing wildlife and disrupting an ecosystem. Intent is not necessarily the same thing as result.
Your "if the robot is cool, the MC is cool too"-argument is true to an extent. But most of the times, what the robots do won't affect the Japanese audience's psyche or personalities, not even the youngest ones. Heck, when Gundam Wing was new and popular in USA, do you see kids and teenagers there imitating whatever act of violence that the giant robots do? I don't think so. Most people in Japan who don't live under a rock and aware of the entertainment industry in their country (even children) know that the flashy robot-fights in Gundam series aren't made to be imitated and only there to sell toys. In fact, you'll see more children imitating the action of protagonists from live-action Tokusatsu shows (Ultraman, Kamen Rider, Sentai/Power Ranger, etc) than anything mecha shows, let alone real-robot shows like Gundam. After all, those children cannot fly, nor separate and combine their bodies in a glorious style, nor have the means to blow things up using cannons and beam sabers. That's what toys are for.
In short, the audiences (who like Gundam shows) might think the giant robots and their fights as cool, that's it. You wanna know the common reaction of audience who thought the Gundams are cool and like it very much? They ask to themselves: "I want more of those, where can I buy the toys & merchandise? " and followed by the act of buying the merchandise of the related Gundam shows, not imitating the act of violence done by the robots.
gandhi the peacemake said:
Suicide in Japan has been a national epidemic for several decades now. (One of the criticisms of the recent Suicide Forest horror movie was that it reduced this national epidemic to a cheap ghost film.) How does it relate to IBO? I don't know, which is why I made the disclaimer in my OP.
My initial thoughts might go something like this:
1.) IBO promotes an unrealistic ideal of the young male by way of its main protagonist, Mikazuki.
2.) Boys and young men internalize this unrealistic ideal, and aim (either consciously or unconsciously) to shape themselves after that ideal.
3.) When they fail to meet those untenable standards, they are at greater risk to self-harm.
That's simplifying things significantly, and of course it must be reiterated that these are just some of my initial thoughts and have yet to be put to the test, but there you are. That's how suicide and IBO are potentially related.
1. The MCs in IBO are never depicted as ideal role models. The MCs are all broken individuals and the show promotes and advertises them as such. Did you never seen or read fictional works where the protagonists are young antiheroes or downright villains? See Death Note, Overlord, Akame ga Kill, Ichi the Killer, etc. The MC in those anime do not scream 'role models IRL' to its audience.
2. It depends on the state of mind of those who does that. But mentally-healthy people with moral values will certainly not do that. They'll be busier trying to act normal to fit in their society by imitating real people than a broken anime character.
3. See my answer to your no. 2 thought. And why would a mentally-healthy people harm themselves for failing to live like a broken anime character? Many suicides in Japan are actually done by people who can't deal with the pressure of their working or school environment or intense bullying or even broken heart due to romantic reasons, not mere anime.
gandhi the peacemake said:
"There are successful adults today" and "the suicide rate in Japan is abnormally high" can both be (and are) true statements that coexist.
And the suicides are most likely aren't heavily connected to anime (let alone caused by it). If you think otherwise, you might wanna do some filtering:
Out of all those suicides, how many are done by people who routinely watch anime or fans of anime?
After you get the result, how many of those suicides are actually related to anime in any way?
After you get the result, how many of those suicides are related to Gundam franchise in any way?
I'm not gonna be surprised if the result is zero.
gandhi the peacemake said:
I've come to understand that such things as popularity and longevity rarely have to do with how "good" something is. There are dozens of mecha anime that I consider far better, far more "good," than Gundam, but they won't be nearly as popular or live as long in the public consciousness as Gundam. Whatever the quality of Gundam, it owes just as much of its existence to the confluence of external factors that propelled it to where it is.
In other words, Gundam didn't do it all on its own. It came out at the right time in the right place with the right story told to the right people.
You can be popular through sheer dumb luck and fans' persistence (see Twilights movies), but many popular things out there actually have merits. For example, I'm not a fan of Justin Bieber (even borderline on disliking his recent attitude caught by media) but his Youtube debut that made him popular is actually good. He has a nice voice & performance in it. So, in many cases, you still need a certain level of quality and competence in your field to be popular while the rest can be attributed to luck (being in the right time and the right place etc).
As for longevity, that is something you definitely cannot get by just luck or external factors alone, especially in entertainment business where people can easily get bored. McDonalds may be able to remains this long coz (almost) everybody likes burgers by default ever since the food is introduced to the masses. But there's no such convenience in entertainment business, especially the competitive and unforgiving anime-industry. If the animated show that you produce is not inherently good and liked by the audience, they'll just ignore your product and leave your business in the dust (something that a former Manglobe anime studio has experienced. They finally went bankrupt despite being a producer of such great anime like Samurai Champloo & Ergo Proxy during their heydays). You have to continually adapt and evolve your product to meet audience's expectation or even surpass them. The fact that the Gundam franchise survives and being embraced by a lot of people (Japanese or otherwise) for 30+ years is a testament to how good their products are in general. Sure, there have been stumbles and duds along the way just like what happened to any other big franchises out there, but Gundam managed to survive a continuous bombardment of other real-robot anime series (which themselves born thanks to the first Gundam series) due to their quality products. In fact, did you know that the very first Gundam show (MSG) actually flopped when it aired? It's probably due to its unique, pioneering, almost- deconstructive (closer to realistic) approach compared to other super-robots shows at the time that audience were taken aback and considered it weird at first. Yeah, the franchise did not get instant popularity like, say, Twilight movies. But thanks to Sunrise/Bandai who saw the potential in it and continued to promote it using toys, Japanese audience were willing to give it a second chance and it becomes extremely popular after that coz people finally realized the quality in its storytelling and great characters which other series have tried to replicate some of those formulas for their own series. For example, Shinji in Evangelion is just an extreme version of Amuro Ray (MC of MSG), Lelouch from Code Geass is basically an extreme teenage version of Char Aznable if you place him in the MC shoes, and the fact that the giant robots are just military vehicles that can be mass produced instead of a one-of-a-kind super-duper-ultra special weapons like in super-robot series. They're practically just advanced tanks/subs /fighter-planes with arms and legs which aren't really the focus of the story.
It's funny how you largely dismiss Gundam's inner quality and longevity and claim its success are mostly due to external factors when in actuality the franchise always strife to be relevant by taking notes from the condition of the world we're living in and continually trying to make and release fresh social-commentary products where the consumers can relate to and enjoy.