is 0 even or odd?

Dominic Corner

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AlexMBrennan said:
You are interchanging multiplication and infinite summation, so you need to justify why you can do that here.
What does that mean?

0.9* is 0 and a decimal point with an infinite number of 9s... multiplying by 10 moves the decimal point to give 9 and a decimal point with an infinite number of 9s...

This is pretty basic mathematics (I was taught it at GCSE level as a way to deal with recurring decimals - not in such basic terms, though), so I would have thought everyone would know it.

In the form of a mathematical expression:

10 * 0.9* = 9 + 0.9*

Unless you're saying that the original 0.9* is different to the new 0.9* (and by inference that infinity - 1 != infinity...)?
 

AlexMBrennan

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Of course that's true but you still need to prove it. Your reply is an appeal to common sense and some vigorous hand waving which is not a valid technique of proof.
 

AlexMBrennan

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Infinite Summation has nothing to do with this. 0.9*
But what is 0.9*? How do you define it if not as sum(9x0.1^n) from 1 to infinity?
This is pretty basic mathematics (I was taught it at GCSE level as a way to deal with recurring decimals - not in such basic terms, though)
You're taught a lot of lies-to-children at GCSE, and then at A-level. Yes, you can exchange the order of infinite summation if certain conditions are met (they usually are, which is why students are taught this) - but you still need to show that that's the case here;
 

Dominic Corner

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OK, lets try a different approach:

1/9 == 0.1*

0.9* == 9 * 0.1*

(1/9)*9 == 9/9

9/9 == 1

QED

Just let it go... Whichever way you look at it, 0.9 recurring is equal to 1. Always has been, always will be.

Also, why is this 12 pages when it was answered correctly in the 2nd reply (post 3 "Even.").
 

SamuelT

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Sparrow said:
I love how such an simple question has spawned such debate and yet the guy who posted it still gets a low content post warning.

Regardless... well, I thought it was even before but reading some of these answers has put me off. If 0 isn't a number, is a negative number also not a number but the absence of value? I always figured it was simple in the fact that it goes even(0), odd(1), even(2), odd(3) ect..
YOU DON'T KNOW SCIENCE, YOU SHUSH.

OT: 0 can be divided by an even number and not get a decimal result. As such; it is even.
 

AlexMBrennan

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That's exactly the same problem - you need to show that 0.9* = 9x 0.1*. I'd expect something like the following:

I'll use bold N, R for natural numbers, real numbers, etc
Axiom 1.1: Every non-empty bounded set of real numbers has a least upper bound

Theorem 1.2: Given a r in R, there exists a n in N such that n>r
Proof: If it is false then r is an upper bound for N. By Axiom 1.1 N has least upper bound s. Then s-1 is not an upper bound for N so there is n in N with n>s-1. But then n+1>s, s in N contradicting s = least upper bound for N. QED

Corollary 1.3: greatest lower bound { 1/n : n in N } = 0
Proof: The set is non-empty and bounded below by 0, so t = greatest lower bound = inf {1/n : n in N} exists. Certainly t >= 0.
If t > 0 then 1/t < n for all n in N, contradicting Theorem 1.2. Hence t=0 QED

Corollary 1.4: 0.999... = 1
Proof: Let s = least upper bound = sup {a_n : n in N} where a_n = 0.99...9=1-10^-n (n nines)
Then a_n =< 1 for all n in N, so s exists by Axiom 1.1, and s =< 1. But if s<1 then by Corollary 1.3. 1-s>1-1/n for some n, so s<a_n. This is a contradiction, and hence s=1 QED

[Lecture notes for Mathematical Analysis by Prof Johnstone for the Mathematics Tripos at the University of Cambridge]
 

Dominic Corner

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No, I don't need to show that at all. It has already been shown by other people.

If you're set on it not being equal to 1 then you can go on believing it.

The fact still remains that 0.9 recurring == 1 and that there are many, many proofs of this out there.

I shouldn't be required to prove all of mathematics every time I supply a proof... Nobody is expected to do that in academic circles, so why should it be any different here?

I'm out.
 

Jake0fTrades

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zehydra said:
Buchholz101 said:
Nothingness cannot be classified into any category or class. It simply isn't.
But Zero isn't nothingness.

And wouldn't the fact that nothingness has attributes such as being unclassifiable, make it have it's own special class of being?
Zero, by definition, is nothing.
 

SeaCalMaster

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Dominic Corner said:
No, I don't need to show that at all. It has already been shown by other people.

If you're set on it not being equal to 1 then you can go on believing it.

The fact still remains that 0.9 recurring == 1 and that there are many, many proofs of this out there.

I shouldn't be required to prove all of mathematics every time I supply a proof... Nobody is expected to do that in academic circles, so why should it be any different here?

I'm out.
Um... he was agreeing that 0.999... = 1. Did you not read it at all?

AlexMBrennan said:
That's exactly the same problem - you need to show that 0.9* = 9x 0.1*. I'd expect something like the following:

I'll use bold N, R for natural numbers, real numbers, etc
Axiom 1.1: Every non-empty bounded set of real numbers has a least upper bound

Theorem 1.2: Given a r in R, there exists a n in N such that n>r
Proof: If it is false then r is an upper bound for N. By Axiom 1.1 N has least upper bound s. Then s-1 is not an upper bound for N so there is n in N with n>s-1. But then n+1>s, s in N contradicting s = least upper bound for N. QED

Corollary 1.3: greatest lower bound { 1/n : n in N } = 0
Proof: The set is non-empty and bounded below by 0, so t = greatest lower bound = inf {1/n : n in N} exists. Certainly t >= 0.
If t > 0 then 1/t < n for all n in N, contradicting Theorem 1.2. Hence t=0 QED

Corollary 1.4: 0.999... = 1
Proof: Let s = least upper bound = sup {a_n : n in N} where a_n = 0.99...9=1-10^-n (n nines)
Then a_n =< 1 for all n in N, so s exists by Axiom 1.1, and s =< 1. But if s<1 then by Corollary 1.3. 1-s>1-1/n for some n, so s<a_n. This is a contradiction, and hence s=1 QED

[Lecture notes for Mathematical Analysis by Prof Johnstone for the Mathematics Tripos at the University of Cambridge]
I think you want 1/t > n in 1.3. (That should be a greater-than sign; someone needs to fix this forum.) Also, there's a slight issue with your proof: stating that the supremum of the set is equal to 1 is not quite the same as showing that the limit of a_n as n -> infinity is equal to 1, although pointing out that the series increases monotonically clears this up.

As for your comment about rearranging terms in the infinite series, I'm not sure why it comes up, as the standard proof doesn't rearrange terms at all. It merely distributes multiplication over the infinite sum (and if you like, you can demand a proof that that works, too). In any case, all the summands are positive, so you can rearrange them all you like.
 

zehydra

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Buchholz101 said:
zehydra said:
Buchholz101 said:
Nothingness cannot be classified into any category or class. It simply isn't.
But Zero isn't nothingness.

And wouldn't the fact that nothingness has attributes such as being unclassifiable, make it have it's own special class of being?
Zero, by definition, is nothing.
rather, Zero, by definition is the lack of a quantity, not "nothing". It is an idea, not the lack thereof
 

4li3n

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zehydra said:
rather, Zero, by definition is the lack of a quantity, not "nothing". It is an idea, not the lack thereof
Dude, that's semantics...

The idea is that no matter what it represents it fits the definition of an even number, and thus is one, especially since there's no reason to make an exception for it as far as math is concerned.
 

zehydra

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4li3n said:
zehydra said:
rather, Zero, by definition is the lack of a quantity, not "nothing". It is an idea, not the lack thereof
Dude, that's semantics...

The idea is that no matter what it represents it fits the definition of an even number, and thus is one, especially since there's no reason to make an exception for it as far as math is concerned.
he was basically saying that Zero wasn't a number, which is of course wrong.
 

riverand

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Zantos said:
riverand said:
Zantos said:
Custard_Angel said:
Neither... Zero is not an integer.

The concept of even and odd only applies to integers therefore 2 is even, 3 is odd, 3.5 is neither and 0 is neither also.
Actually zero is an element in the set of integers (the Z set).

Strictly speaking it's even, since when you do set mappings you use 2*n for evens and 2n+(or -)1 for odds where n is an integer. However the principle of odd and even is only really used in natural number mappings, and 0 is not a natural number. So essentially from an analytical maths perspective it doesn't really matter but for the sake of completeness it's even.
Preach on, Zantos! I'm a high school math teacher practically hyperventilating over here with the responses. You set my mind at ease, I will be able to sleep soundly tonight knowing that your response is out there.
:)
I'm glad I could help. However would it spoil it if I said this is the ONLY time I've ever used set theory outside of an exam?

crudus said:
Zantos said:
0 is not a natural number.
Actually that just depends on who you ask. Zero is "sometimes" considered natural. "Natural Number" is actually kind of an ambiguous term to begin with
Fair enough. Our maths department is one of the "If you try to index zero in the natural numbers you WILL be beaten to death with a proof by induction" ones. I don't know how it's taught elsewhere, but I did not want to cross the man with the huge wad of proofs.
Zantos, you have ruined nothing. I often share with my students that some of what we will learn will serve them no further than just confusing the heck out of someone later in life, helping young children with their homework, or just to impress upon their parents that they learned something scholarly-sounding during their day at school!

As for this zero as a Natural number debate, Crudus, this is new to me. (Although I am aware that zero does like to be difficult whenever seemingly possible!) I have always believed zero NOT to be a Natural number as the Natural numbers are often also called the counting numbers and you can't count zero. Also, if zero IS a Natural number, what is to distinguish th set of Natural numbers from the set of whole numbers?
 

4li3n

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zehydra said:
he was basically saying that Zero wasn't a number, which is of course wrong.
Sure, but you where saying it wrong...


Of course so was he, because it being a number that represents nothing could easily allow for an exception so that it would be outside of the odd/even dynamic as long as it doesn't affect anything else (of course then the exception would be pointless anyway)... which is what he wanted to argue, that as a number that represents nothing (or a state of rest etc) it's an exception.