Is Dark Souls really that good?

[Dijarida]

What I want to know is if I would enjoy it.

Don't ask someone who plays a large amount of Dark Souls if they /enjoy/ Dark Souls. Not a single person /enjoys/ Dark Souls. To quote Yahtzee, "Frustration get's shit done", and simply put at that, people play Dark Souls not because of it's fun, but rather in the mindset of someone climbing a mountain, or trying to arm wrestle a bear-gorilla crossbreed. They don't enjoy playing it, they enjoy the fulfillment of knowing that they beat it, they rose to the challenge and prospered.

To again quote someone from The Escapist, specifically Gavin's song "YOU DIED", "You must learn to take the torture in your stride".

Enjoy~

 

[MerlinCross]

Loaded question. Anyone that plays a lot of it will like Dark Souls for the most part while those that play for a few/dozen hours won't like it.

It's a challenging game if you try to rush through. You will die if you try to bumrush everything(at least early, get some upgrades and the basic dudes shouldn't be an issue). And that's part of the appeal of this game, along with all the different builds. To me it feels like playing a 3rd person dungeon crawling game from the NES era.

Are there cheap parts, yes. I don't even need to explain to vets about; Sen's Fortress, Anor Londo's Archer, Blight Town, and a personal favorite Crystal Cave. And Ghosts, forgot about like the one enemy that breaks the rules that every other character(you, players and monsters) seem to follow. Other players also kinda ruin the game from time to time. Might be a feature, but having Giant Dads halt my progress kinda isn't fun.

End of the day it's a niche title that does it's job pretty well.

 

[SmallHatLogan]

What I want to know is if I would enjoy it.

Don't ask someone who plays a large amount of Dark Souls if they /enjoy/ Dark Souls. Not a single person /enjoys/ Dark Souls. To quote Yahtzee, "Frustration get's shit done", and simply put at that, people play Dark Souls not because of it's fun, but rather in the mindset of someone climbing a mountain, or trying to arm wrestle a bear-gorilla crossbreed. They don't enjoy playing it, they enjoy the fulfillment of knowing that they beat it, they rose to the challenge and prospered.

To again quote someone from The Escapist, specifically Gavin's song "YOU DIED", "You must learn to take the torture in your stride".

Enjoy~

That's true for the first playthrough but as someone who's played through the game several times I'd say once you know the game well enough that it's not frustrating it is a lot of fun. For example, first time through Dark Souls, whenever I died usually my blood pressure would go up, now when I die I have a laugh (usually at my own stupidity or impatience).

I do feel like that first frustrating playthrough is required to fully enjoy and appreciate the game though.

captcha: pay the ferryman
How morbid.

 

[In Search of Username]

It's a difficult game, but it's one that if you dedicate yourself to it, you WILL be able to learn it. I'm really, really bad at games too, but I managed to persevere and now I can beat Dark Souls pretty reliably without dying too much. And it's a fucking great feeling.

Dark Souls is an unfriendly game but it's one that rewards practice and understanding, and that I think anyone can become good at if they try.

Also, it's just a really beautiful game, and worth experiencing for that reason alone. Like seriously aesthetically it's probably one of the best games I've ever played. Don't miss it.

Off topic and I know there was a thread about it a week or so ago but...

Really then where is the Role Playing? Where are my choices? When do I get to do something different than killing mooks?

That isn't the only thing to role-playing games and you know it. There's a levelling system, a focus on the freedom to build your character in whatever way you want (by levelling up your favourite attributes, using and upgrading your favourite weapons and armour, etc.), and also the ability to join (or attack) different covenants, and to interact with NPCs in various ways involving choices (even if those choices aren't extensive as in, say, Dragon Age, they're still there in the game); all common aspects of RPGs, along with the EXTENSIVE lore of the game, another common RPG theme.

 

[Milanezi]

If I'm to consider your gaming "experience"... Stay away from Dark Souls, or pick it up for a very low price, if only to taste the whole thing.

Dark Souls, however, is not as hard as everyone says. Or it is, depends on your point of view. Actually it boils down to: it does not forgive the player, but when you die it's almost certainly your fault; you either tried to fight something you shouldn't yet, or you went somewhere unprepared, you might also have underestimated a threat (even low level enemies remain menacing if you don't get the "hang of it"), either way, this game punishes you fairly, you will never die because the game messed up. Plus, you're always learning from your mistakes.

In most other games you learn nothing from dying, you get shot in Battlefield you just try it and try it again until you shoot the enemy first or something, and I'm not talking BF down here, it's just that it's one of those games where your death comes with no advantages, sometimes it's not even your fault, the game is simply being unfair by say, sticking you with an infinite spawn of enemies while just saving your checkpoint in a moment you were short on ammo, making progress frustrating.

Dark Souls punishes the player and does so fiercely, but the gambit here is that you'll hardly leave a point where you died and not learn something new... I'm on my second gameplay, same character, and as many have said before, it takes a while for difficulty to show the second time around, so I sorta got used to easy killing the enemies again, I'm at the Depths and there's this place with two "Casters" (they're sorta like mages) and a bunch of rats, well, I decided to rush on them, seeing how strong I am... I got attack from so many sides that it was simply humiliating. But you see, it was ME, I underestimated the situation and was punished for it. Now, I dunno if you know the death mechanics here, but when you die you lose all your souls and any humanity already on the counter (and if in human form you get back to hollow form), you don't lose it for good though, the game goats you into going again at the spot where you died, if you get there and touch your bloodstain you regain everything. That makes you think: is it worth trying that part again? How can I go at it differently?

The only infuriating thing about Dark Souls are the invasions of other players. But... I must admit it has its own charm... Every time you're in human form (advantage being you can summon other players to help you) you become a potential victim of Black Phantom invasion, the ones that are NPC are usually very easy to defeat, but the players themselves? That's PvP in it's cruelest form. Still, that's part of the game, it's a risk you take because you just made things easier by being able to "call for help", also the invader is considered a sinner, the game allows it by being part of the gameplay but also makes it possible for the victim to "punish" the invader by means of the "Letter of Indictment", you use them to send that player to a sort of "black list" if one has enough of those complaints it seems some sort of punishment befalls them (unless they honorably left a sign for you to summon them for battle, in this case, since you allowed them in, you can't indict them, because it was sorta like a duel), there are other mechanics in game that even I, having finished the game once, am only now beginning to grasp, such as "disasters" (yep, "Disasters are gone with the Gravelord Servant vanquished) and stuff.

One thing is for sure, it has it's learning curve, it's honest in terms of difficulty, it will require patience no matter how good you are and it usually doesn't allow gamers who wants to "rush into battle" (maybe after your 7th gameplay when it stops getting harder), but if get through the first moments of pain this game will certainly addict you.

It's so cheap in most places now though that I recommend you buy it anyway for a taste, even if you don't plan on finishing it, if you enjoy it then you can buy and dedicate yourself for the second one, as far as I know you won't need to play one to understand the other. Oh, as far as story goes, the main story is very weak, but fable-like in an almost charming way, the lore, however is immense and very interesting and it's where the bigger scope of story is (including the true plot some say...). It somehow reminds me of Attack on Titan hahaha

 

[DaViller]

I basically recommend dark souls to everyone and their mum since I'm a massive fanboy, so take the following with a grain (na fuck it take a full spoon) of salt.

You should definitly try it out it's great. I consider dark souls to be the best game of the last generation, would put it right up there with games like half life, ocarina of time or shadow of the collossus. The atmosphere in dark souls just sells the game so damn well, it's the only game that ever had me scared in broad daylight, in wich I realy cared for almost every character I met even though dialogue is minimal and that made me want to find out if there is more to it's story(or lore) then what i figured from my first playtrough. It's the overall package that makes the game for me, from the weighty feeling of the combat to the multiplayer elements just comes together to form a realy awesome whole.

Turning my inner fanboy switch of now, there are some definite flaws in the game that have to be mentioned.

The camera sometimes freaks the fuck out, especially when going from an open to a rather closed space.
The game gives you no clear information on how exactly stats work, though most of it can be deduced some pretty major stuff is not even indicated (dex for example reduces spell cast times and thats mentioned nowhere).
Multiplayer aspects, especially pvp, have some major lag and hacker issues.
There are a few cheap deaths via very much unavoidable traps (though only 2 or max 3).
Not realy a flaw imo, but the game is not for those easily frustrated or those who want the game to give out rewards for every little thing you do diablo style.

Despite these flaws I definitly recommend dark souls and I stand for everything said in the fanboy paragraph.

 

[lapan]

I like bleak games, monster games, zombie games whatever. But usually there's a mild amount of hope. A drive to win. Dark souls is basically only bleak. You die, and find your body again, and get your xp again, or if you fail you lose it. Any unspent xp is lost, your important human-attribute points are gone. It's not a restart, it's gone. Just gone. it's punishing for the sake of punishing. a three hit combo, that's the game. Guitar hero could do that.

Dark souls is actually less punishing than most games, it just masks it well.

If you die in most other checkpoint based games you lose everything you collected since then.
If you die in Dark souls you can keep any items you found AND have a chance to regain even your souls

It's a shame then, the one thing they advertise and they dont even do it properly. "prepare to die, a lot". A checkpoint death does mean you get to do over, dark souls means backtracking, or losing your xp

A checkpoint death means you get to do it over and you will have to backtrack to where you died and you lose anything you gained since then. A Dark souls death means you get to do it over and you will have to backtrack to where you died and you keep most of what you lost + you have a chance to recover the rest

 

[Phoenixmgs_v1legacy]

Off topic and I know there was a thread about it a week or so ago but...

Really then where is the Role Playing? Where are my choices? When do I get to do something different than killing mooks?

That isn't the only thing to role-playing games and you know it. There's a levelling system, a focus on the freedom to build your character in whatever way you want (by levelling up your favourite attributes, using and upgrading your favourite weapons and armour, etc.), and also the ability to join (or attack) different covenants, and to interact with NPCs in various ways involving choices (even if those choices aren't extensive as in, say, Dragon Age, they're still there in the game); all common aspects of RPGs, along with the EXTENSIVE lore of the game, another common RPG theme.

The role-playing isn't the focus of the game; thus Dark Souls is not an RPG. Just because you have some role-playing aspects to a game doesn't make it an RPG. Is Bioshock Infinite a platformer because it has some platforming? Hell no. Same thing with Dark Souls, it's a dungeon crawler first and foremost.

Off topic and I know there was a thread about it a week or so ago but...

Really then where is the Role Playing? Where are my choices? When do I get to do something different than killing mooks?

Choices in covenants for a start; Choices with irreversible consequences with every character you meet, whose side stories, quests and progress you can follow and get involved with; At least two murders you can see coming and either watch unfold or prevent ( and become tainted as a result); the fact that nearly a quarter of the world is entirely optional; the possibilities of acting against covenant leaders and be branded by their followers as result; two different endings.

Not to mention the fact that it is a game where stats and stat building matter to a very tight degree, and where you can create very different characters depending on the stats you favour.

All of this means choice and roleplaying even if the choices are not telegraphed through giant "DECISION TIME" dialogue wheels.

And if you want to compare it against it's peers, the Dragon Age series is undoubtedly an RPG, and is much more linear in terms of character progesssion. Diablo has always been considered an RPG and is, again, way more linear in story telling and character progression. Skyrim is a sandbox with loads of inconsequential questing; with all of those falling strong into the RPG genre, there's no reason to brand Dark souls as anything less. And to have missed on all of this, you must not have played it through to the end, and are commenting on something you don't know about.

Dark Souls doesn't focus on choices, it focuses on role-playing. Seriously, there is not that much choice in your character, I can go full rogue (dex and quickness) and the game plays very similarly as if I went full strength with a huge sword and shield. A dex-based character can block just about every attack with a light shield, you still end up playing very similar to a strength-based character. Stats aren't that important either, not nearly like say DnD. All you have to do is choose 4 stats to level (vit, end, dex or str, int or faith), you can choose to level even fewer stats if you want but you'll want more health and stamina, you'll most likely want to use dex or str weapons (you can forgo dex or str as well if you want), and you'll probably want some kind of magic (int or faith). You can cheat on the magic stat and use fire magic instead since it doesn't use a stat, just proves how the game isn't focused on stats "to a very tight degree" along with the fact that resistance is a completely useless stat as well (I don't know how a completely useless stat even made into the final game, Dark Souls is poorly designed at its very core). And Diablo isn't an RPG either.

 

[Phoenixmgs_v1legacy]

You claim Dark Souls isn't a RPG and then base your argument on the fact that you roleplay. Just... amazing.

You also state that Bioshock Infinite has platforming.

I hereby elect not to take you seriously. Thanks for the laugh, though.

You jump from platform to platform in Bioshock Infinite, that's just a fact. To be an RPG, a game needs to primarily focus on role-playing, not just have some in it like Bioshock Infinite having some platforming, but I guess you don't understand analogies. There's a role-playing section in Batman: Arkham City as Catwoman, I guess that makes it an RPG according to your logic.

 

[Phoenixmgs_v1legacy]

You claim Dark Souls isn't a RPG and then base your argument on the fact that you roleplay. Just... amazing.

You also state that Bioshock Infinite has platforming.

I hereby elect not to take you seriously. Thanks for the laugh, though.

You jump from platform to platform in Bioshock Infinite, that's just a fact. To be an RPG, a game needs to primarily focus on role-playing, not just have some in it like Bioshock Infinite having some platforming, but I guess you don't understand analogies. There's a role-playing section in Batman: Arkham City as Catwoman, I guess that makes it an RPG according to your logic.

I understand analogies pretty well.


How about this one for size: Your argument is as coherent and grounded on reality as the farts of a rainbow striped baboon are actual deep musings on the meaning of life and the secret behind Mona Lisa's smile.


And with that I'm off to play Skyrim the platformer.

What? It's totally a platformer, don't you see the jump button?

And you continue to not understand what an analogy is. I said Bioshock Infinite has platforming, not that it is a platformer.

 

[crispskittlez]

You claim Dark Souls isn't a RPG and then base your argument on the fact that you roleplay. Just... amazing.

You also state that Bioshock Infinite has platforming.

I hereby elect not to take you seriously. Thanks for the laugh, though.

You jump from platform to platform in Bioshock Infinite, that's just a fact. To be an RPG, a game needs to primarily focus on role-playing, not just have some in it like Bioshock Infinite having some platforming, but I guess you don't understand analogies. There's a role-playing section in Batman: Arkham City as Catwoman, I guess that makes it an RPG according to your logic.

I understand analogies pretty well.


How about this one for size: Your argument is as coherent and grounded on reality as the farts of a rainbow striped baboon are actual deep musings on the meaning of life and the secret behind Mona Lisa's smile.


And with that I'm off to play Skyrim the platformer.

What? It's totally a platformer, don't you see the jump button?

And you continue to not understand what an analogy is. I said Bioshock Infinite has platforming, not that it is a platformer.

Okay, then let's get back to talking about Dark Souls being an RPG. You talked a bit about character improvement but argue that it doesn't actually change much. I disagree, as character building and weapon/armour upgrades do play a large part in how situations turn out, especially close to the beginning of the game. It's an action-RPG; nobody's going to make progress with stats alone, but they are important and an integral part of the game. Even in the case of disregarding the player's stats in a SL1 playthrough, what equipment you use and how you upgrade all of it is important.

OP, I'd say give Dark Souls a shot. Generally, I'd to give Dark Souls a shot, because if they can muscle through what many consider to be a challenging game taking note of a lot of the design choices in it, they'll see how deliberately set up many of the enemy encounters and level designs are. It only punishes the player by toying with their expectations of how things should work and asking them to play with a slower, more observant style of play.

 

[Phoenixmgs_v1legacy]

Okay, then let's get back to talking about Dark Souls being an RPG. You talked a bit about character improvement but argue that it doesn't actually change much. I disagree, as character building and weapon/armour upgrades do play a large part in how situations turn out, especially close to the beginning of the game. It's an action-RPG; nobody's going to make progress with stats alone, but they are important and an integral part of the game. Even in the case of disregarding the player's stats in a SL1 playthrough, what equipment you use and how you upgrade all of it is important.

Stats don't really matter in Dark Souls, you can get by just leveling vitality and endurance. You can put an element on a weapon to not need to scale its damage with a stat. You can use fire magic to use magic without needing any stat investment. The other poster said stats matter "to a very tight degree" and that is complete BS. I'm not even referencing SL1 playthroughs at all. For any player, I would recommend evenly leveling vitality, endurance, dex or str (for the kind of weapons you want to use), and int or faith (for a type of magic to use). You can easily get through the game allocating stat points just like that and have a wealth of options at your disposal. Dark Souls is very far from say DnD where literally every point you put into stats is extremely important. All these Souls players make the game out to be way more than it is, weapon/armor upgrades are really only important with regards of where you want to take said piece of equipment like make it divine, lightning, fire, occult, etc. It's not like if you don't level up your shield properly, you can't block attacks or anything like that. I was able to block just about every enemy's attacks with a level 5 light shield as a dex-based character. Dark Souls disappointed me greatly because I wanted to play a rogue-like character but I never felt like a rogue, I just felt like normal fighter that was slightly quicker and that was about it, I blocked enemy attacks and then attacked them afterward, that's how a strength-based character will play as well. In my opinion, Bayonetta (through different weapons and accessories and its combat system) has more playstyles than Dark Souls. Lastly, all stats in Dark Souls only affect combat so I can't see how the game can be classified as an RPG just due to that alone.

 

[crispskittlez]

Stats don't really matter in Dark Souls, you can get by just leveling vitality and endurance. You can put an element on a weapon to not need to scale its damage with a stat. You can use fire magic to use magic without needing any stat investment. The other poster said stats matter "to a very tight degree" and that is complete BS. I'm not even referencing SL1 playthroughs at all. For any player, I would recommend evenly leveling vitality, endurance, dex or str (for the kind of weapons you want to use), and int or faith (for a type of magic to use). You can easily get through the game allocating stat points just like that and have a wealth of options at your disposal. Dark Souls is very far from say DnD where literally every point you put into stats is extremely important. All these Souls players make the game out to be way more than it is, weapon/armor upgrades are really only important with regards of where you want to take said piece of equipment like make it divine, lightning, fire, occult, etc. It's not like if you don't level up your shield properly, you can't block attacks or anything like that. I was able to block just about every enemy's attacks with a level 5 light shield as a dex-based character. Dark Souls disappointed me greatly because I wanted to play a rogue-like character but I never felt like a rogue, I just felt like normal fighter that was slightly quicker and that was about it, I blocked enemy attacks and then attacked them afterward, that's how a strength-based character will play as well. In my opinion, Bayonetta (through different weapons and accessories and its combat system) has more playstyles than Dark Souls. Lastly, all stats in Dark Souls only affect combat so I can't see how the game can be classified as an RPG just due to that alone.

In Devil Survivor, stats effect combat only, and it's an RPG. In WoW, stats effect combat only, and it's an RPG. In GW2, stats effect combat only, and it's an RPG. In Pokemon, stats effect combat only, and it's an RPG. And then there are RPGs where stats effect more than just combat, etc. Dark Souls may not fit your definition of RPG, because you're defining it too narrowly/incorrectly.

Pyromancy in Dark Souls needs to be invested in to become more powerful like most things in the game. Upgrading weapons along paths that don't take influence from a character's stats frees up the player to invest in things like health and stamina, but they won't reach the raw damage output of a player using a fully upgraded divine weapon with high faith. You wanted to play a rogue-ish character, so I'm assuming you wore armour light enough to move around quickly in. Others decide they want a higher defense at the expense of speed and dodges. This is an outlet for the player's playstyle, and the very definition of orthogonal unit differentiation; balancing the raw statistics against one's ability to perform execution challenges.

 

[Phoenixmgs_v1legacy]

In Devil Survivor, stats effect combat only, and it's an RPG. In WoW, stats effect combat only, and it's an RPG. In GW2, stats effect combat only, and it's an RPG. In Pokemon, stats effect combat only, and it's an RPG. And then there are RPGs where stats effect more than just combat, etc. Dark Souls may not fit your definition of RPG, because you're defining it too narrowly/incorrectly.

Pyromancy in Dark Souls needs to be invested in to become more powerful like most things in the game. Upgrading weapons along paths that don't take influence from a character's stats frees up the player to invest in things like health and stamina, but they won't reach the raw damage output of a player using a fully upgraded divine weapon with high faith. You wanted to play a rogue-ish character, so I'm assuming you wore armour light enough to move around quickly in. Others decide they want a higher defense at the expense of speed and dodges. This is an outlet for the player's playstyle, and the very definition of orthogonal unit differentiation; balancing the raw statistics against one's ability to perform execution challenges.

I don't think any of those are RPGs (at least the ones I know of from that list aren't RPGs). The problem is people define RPGs far too broadly to the point where people say "well, any game can be an RPG" since you play as a character in just about every one of them. Here's a rather simple definition of an RPG:
A role-playing game is a game in which players assume the roles of characters in a fictional setting. Players take responsibility for acting out these roles within a narrative, either through literal acting or through a process of structured decision-making or character development.

Most video game RPGs don't qualify as RPGs under that definition. An RPG needs to primarily focus on the role-playing to be an RPG just like a shooter has to primarily focus on the shooting that's why COD is a shooter and Mirror's Edge is not. A game where you dungeon crawl pretty much all game is not an RPG, it's a hack and slash or dungeon crawler at that point. Dark Souls is really like DnD if you took the role-playing out of DnD and only fought monsters in dungeons.

The reason pyromancy is broken is because it doesn't factor into your level and due to Dark Souls having an online component. A level 20 character who uses pryomancy can be easily made stronger than a level 20 character that uses scorcery or miracles due to there being not stat investment needed for pyromancy. Dark Souls 2 will fix that and many other things like resistance actually doing something (how did a stat literally not doing anything make it into the final game when something like that should not have never even made it out of the conceptual stages? And Dark Souls is the SECOND game in the series, it's not like it was the developers 1st try at an RPG, that's why I have no faith in From Software to actually make a good game when they can't even get something so basic right). Another problem with Dark Souls' stats is the diminishing returns so it's not worth it to keep investing in say dex after a certain point. I played with my weight below 25% but I didn't feel any different than a fighter since I could block everything with a light shield, which I thought was stupid. Even in freaking Kingdom of Amalur my rogue had worse blocking when compared to Dark Souls. A dex-based character doesn't get anything for stealth like a rogue should. Dark Souls doesn't play much different if you go full dex or full strength as you'll still be fighting very similarly, dex character will swing faster as with less damage per hit vs a strength character swinging slower with more damage per hit, both characters can still block just about everything. Like I said before, Bayonetta has more differences in playstyle than Dark Souls, which is pretty sad.

 

[crispskittlez]

A role-playing game is a game in which players assume the roles of characters in a fictional setting. Players take responsibility for acting out these roles within a narrative, either through literal acting or through a process of structured decision-making or character development.

As long as we're pulling definitions off of Wikipedia, I should mention every game I named is defined as an RPG there as well. Dark Souls does fall under that definition, too, as well as having the macro gameplay being largely stat based. Don't get me wrong, the micro is almost entirely an execution challenge, but that alone doesn't forfeit it from being an RPG. Give me some examples of what you'd consider an RPG. Tabletop is the mother of all RPGs, sure, but I'd imagine some people forgo most of the actually roleplaying in favour of exploration and combat. That doesn't suddenly make a group's DnD campaign "not an RPG".

I agree that Mirror's Edge is not a shooter. I don't have much to add to that point, but you're right about it.

The reason pyromancy is broken is because it doesn't factor into your level and due to Dark Souls having an online component. A level 20 character who uses pryomancy can be easily made stronger than a level 20 character that uses scorcery or miracles due to there being not stat investment needed for pyromancy. Dark Souls 2 will fix that and many other things like resistance actually doing something (how did a stat literally not doing anything make it into the final game when something like that should not have never even made it out of the conceptual stages? And Dark Souls is the SECOND game in the series, it's not like it was the developers 1st try at an RPG, that's why I have no faith in From Software to actually make a good game when they can't even get something so basic right). Another problem with Dark Souls' stats is the diminishing returns so it's not worth it to keep investing in say dex after a certain point. I played with my weight below 25% but I didn't feel any different than a fighter since I could block everything with a light shield, which I thought was stupid. Even in freaking Kingdom of Amalur my rogue had worse blocking when compared to Dark Souls. A dex-based character doesn't get anything for stealth like a rogue should. Dark Souls doesn't play much different if you go full dex or full strength as you'll still be fighting very similarly, dex character will swing faster as with less damage per hit vs a strength character swinging slower with more damage per hit, both characters can still block just about everything. Like I said before, Bayonetta has more differences in playstyle than Dark Souls, which is pretty sad.

The bit about pyromancy is half-true, yes. Low level characters forgoing leveling up for upgrading pyromancy for one reason of another can be annoying if they fashion themselves as a ganker, but choosing to level up pyromancy with no regards for player stats will leave them vulnerable in a lot of the later areas they will no do be in while trying to gather souls for pyromancy. Resistance technically did do something, but it was so minor and dumb that I can't disagree with you.

Surely you weren't blocking everything with your light shield while playing. With the lower stability, you probably had to dodge a lot of the largest enemies attacks when a heavy guy with a greatshield could have just stood there and taken it. I'd bet you had a much easier time just plain dodging attacks when compared to a player with heavy armour. That's something that has a large impact on playstyle for sure. I haven't played Bayonetta in a few years, so I can't really comment on differences of playstyles in that game, but I don't see any reason why having more differences in playstyle in one game makes the other sad, even when comparing games from different genres.

 

[Phoenixmgs_v1legacy]

A role-playing game is a game in which players assume the roles of characters in a fictional setting. Players take responsibility for acting out these roles within a narrative, either through literal acting or through a process of structured decision-making or character development.

As long as we're pulling definitions off of Wikipedia, I should mention every game I named is defined as an RPG there as well. Dark Souls does fall under that definition, too, as well as having the macro gameplay being largely stat based. Don't get me wrong, the micro is almost entirely an execution challenge, but that alone doesn't forfeit it from being an RPG. Give me some examples of what you'd consider an RPG. Tabletop is the mother of all RPGs, sure, but I'd imagine some people forgo most of the actually roleplaying in favour of exploration and combat. That doesn't suddenly make a group's DnD campaign "not an RPG".

I agree that Mirror's Edge is not a shooter. I don't have much to add to that point, but you're right about it.

Video games aren't categorized by the simple definition of an RPG for some stupid reason. Dark Souls does not fall under that definition as Dark Souls has nothing along the lines of the bolded section of the definition, which is the key part of the definition as without that any game can be categorized as an RPG. I don't care if an RPG is purely based on character stats or player skill, that has nothing to do with whether a game is an RPG or not.

I used Mirror's Edge as an example because it has shooting but it's not a shooter because it has a whole lot more platforming than shooting. Same thing with Dark Souls, it has way more dungeon crawling/fighting than role-playing so it's first and foremost a dungeon crawler or hack and slash so it's not an RPG even though it has some role-playing.

The bit about pyromancy is half-true, yes. Low level characters forgoing leveling up for upgrading pyromancy for one reason of another can be annoying if they fashion themselves as a ganker, but choosing to level up pyromancy with no regards for player stats will leave them vulnerable in a lot of the later areas they will no do be in while trying to gather souls for pyromancy. Resistance technically did do something, but it was so minor and dumb that I can't disagree with you.

Surely you weren't blocking everything with your light shield while playing. With the lower stability, you probably had to dodge a lot of the largest enemies attacks when a heavy guy with a greatshield could have just stood there and taken it. I'd bet you had a much easier time just plain dodging attacks when compared to a player with heavy armour. That's something that has a large impact on playstyle for sure. I haven't played Bayonetta in a few years, so I can't really comment on differences of playstyles in that game, but I don't see any reason why having more differences in playstyle in one game makes the other sad, even when comparing games from different genres.

When you have players VSing each other as a part of the game, you can't allow for builds where one character is much better than another character at the same level. If Dark Souls was purely an offline game, then it's not really an issue.

You can block most boss attacks with a light shield and almost all regular enemies as well. A dex-based character shouldn't be able to block the knights for example. I'm fully aware there's a few enemies you can't block but they are very few in number. The reason I say it's sad is because in Bayonetta, you only play as Bayonetta (I think there's a character or 2 you can unlock though). In Dark Souls, it's an RPG where you build a character from scratch and the playstyles don't vary as much as the playstyles in a game where you just play as one character.

 

[Skin]

You can block most boss attacks with a light shield and almost all regular enemies as well. A dex-based character shouldn't be able to block the knights for example. I'm fully aware there's a few enemies you can't block but they are very few in number. The reason I say it's sad is because in Bayonetta, you only play as Bayonetta (I think there's a character or 2 you can unlock though). In Dark Souls, it's an RPG where you build a character from scratch and the playstyles don't vary as much as the playstyles in a game where you just play as one character.

What? There is a huge variation in playstyles. End game PVP has thousands and thousands of different builds. Some min/max, others "Roleplaying" and everything you could want inbetween. And if we are talking PvE, there are all the challenge runs/cosplay runs, etc that people have done.

Now, to a certain extent, I do agree with you that equipment is overpowered in the game. You can finish the game as a level 1, but you cannot finish without good equipment. I guess all you can do is say "well, thats Dark Souls" and move on. It is just another learning mechanic of the game. They don't tell you that equipment is much more important than levels, you just find out on your own.

As for the role playing/blocking thing you keep bringing up, later in the game, blocking without a heavy set of armor on, will not help you at all (4K for example) and you will need to get rolling. Also, if you have anything to do with PvP at all, you will find that just blocking your opponents attacks will lead to your swift demise. It is only really just the start of the game where all you need to do is block-hit-move to go on.

 

[crispskittlez]

When you have players VSing each other as a part of the game, you can't allow for builds where one character is much better than another character at the same level. If Dark Souls was purely an offline game, then it's not really an issue.

You can block most boss attacks with a light shield and almost all regular enemies as well. A dex-based character shouldn't be able to block the knights for example. I'm fully aware there's a few enemies you can't block but they are very few in number. The reason I say it's sad is because in Bayonetta, you only play as Bayonetta (I think there's a character or 2 you can unlock though). In Dark Souls, it's an RPG where you build a character from scratch and the playstyles don't vary as much as the playstyles in a game where you just play as one character.

When you say a dex-based character shouldn't be able to block larger attacks, it feels like you're supporting genre conventions for no solid reason other than "this is the way it's been before, so why stray from it." As for the PvP elements, I'm right there with you that it's not entirely balanced. Being ganked by groups of players equipped with much better gear who are obviously farming other players is not fun or balanced, and I really hope DS2 is better balanced for it. Also, it shouldn't be sad that Bayonetta has a large variety of playstyles supported when games with more characters/player created characters don't have as much. It just makes it sound like Bayonetta is really good. (which it is from what I remember about it)

Video games aren't categorized by the simple definition of an RPG for some stupid reason. Dark Souls does not fall under that definition as Dark Souls has nothing along the lines of the bolded section of the definition, which is the key part of the definition as without that any game can be categorized as an RPG. I don't care if an RPG is purely based on character stats or player skill, that has nothing to do with whether a game is an RPG or not.

I used Mirror's Edge as an example because it has shooting but it's not a shooter because it has a whole lot more platforming than shooting. Same thing with Dark Souls, it has way more dungeon crawling/fighting than role-playing so it's first and foremost a dungeon crawler or hack and slash so it's not an RPG even though it has some role-playing.

Dungeon Crawlers are subsets of RPGs, anyway, and Dark Souls does indeed fall under the bold portion of the definition. There are structured decisions that players make in DS, potentially without even realizing it, while taking responsibility for being the chosen undead in the story. That definition mentions nothing about how much agency the player has over their character or the story, and any game can have varying amounts while still being an RPG. Disregarding player stats and required skill, every game I've previously mentioned is also covered by that definition, and it's such a broad definition in the first place. That's why there are so many sub-genres, because defining everything by things like 'RPG', 'Shooter', or 'Adventure' leads to so much overlap between gameplay mechanics, individual player preferences, and possibility spaces, that two games that seem barely similar on the surface can still be shadowed by the same genre.

 

[barbzilla]

It's very clear that I suck at video games and I have a very hard time learning the ins and outs of a game's mechanics. Dark souls is scrotum-twistingly difficult and REQUIRES you to learn the ins and outs of it's mechanics, otherwise it will leave you as little more than a red smear on the sidewalk.

Personally, I think Dark Souls is incredible simple in its mechanics. It's strength is that it takes these simple mechanics and and turns them into a surprisingly deep and difficult experience. Then again, I tend to find most games simple to pick up, so maybe I'm not that trustworthy on the matter.

Anyways, if you've already accepted the fact that you're going to die a lot, that will certainly take out a lot of the frustration. If you don't like dying a lot, then maybe the game isn't for you because dying is just a major part of the game, but at the same time, I don't think anyone likes dying a lot, yet Dark Souls manages to be fun even while dying. To me, the biggest turn-off of the game is how slowly you move through it. If you don't mind investing a lot of time to make comparatively little progress, then go for it. If you don't feel like investing that kind of time, then maybe you should think about giving it a pass.

I think this post sums my feelings up the best. While I love Dark Souls, and still boot it up to this day to play on my Faithromancer who is on his 4th ng+, the progression rate in the early levels is frustratingly slow. I probably spent 2 whole days playing about in the first real area of the game (after you fly away from the starting area). After those two days were spent though, I did fairly well. Anytime I hit a difficulty wall, I'd step back and see what I could change, improve upon, or otherwise adjust to get my stats, gear, and tactics just so that I could pass that spot.

So, if you are patient, and don't mind potentially losing all the souls you have been farming for hours to upgrade your weapon because you died twice in a row, then definitely give this game a go. If you aren't patient, and get frustrated when things don't go your way (which it doesn't sound likely to be like you since you still game, despite any hardships you may endure), then definitely stay away from Dark Souls.

Oh, and if you are just someone who loves exploring into little nooks and crannies to find something wonderful someone else left behind, this game may just be for you.

 

[barbzilla]

Video games aren't categorized by the simple definition of an RPG for some stupid reason. Dark Souls does not fall under that definition as Dark Souls has nothing along the lines of the bolded section of the definition, which is the key part of the definition as without that any game can be categorized as an RPG. I don't care if an RPG is purely based on character stats or player skill, that has nothing to do with whether a game is an RPG or not.

I used Mirror's Edge as an example because it has shooting but it's not a shooter because it has a whole lot more platforming than shooting. Same thing with Dark Souls, it has way more dungeon crawling/fighting than role-playing so it's first and foremost a dungeon crawler or hack and slash so it's not an RPG even though it has some role-playing

Sorry to interrupt here, but I'd have to say that Dark Souls is more of an RPG than most games that get categorized as an RPG, seeing as how in Dark Souls you can make choices to sway the entire story one way or the other, meanwhile in 90% of what I see called RPGs these days, you go through a linear story line where you are fed narrative (often with your character speaking their own mind without any input from you, or you having only one or two options to push that typically don't really represent what is about to be said).

I do know that there are some out there that manage to really make an experience that feels like you are walking in someone else's shoes and running their life, and that is great. But, saying Dark Souls isn't an RPG because there isn't a spoken narrative for you to explore is just false when something as simple as choosing to kill something can change your entire path from bringer of light, to bringer of darkness.