Is Ellie being gay going to factor into the plot of The Last of Us 2?

[Cold Shiny]

you can assume it will be front and center for 95% of the game.

 

[Silvanus]

Nice way to conveniently quote me out of context. Like I said it only becomes a statement b/c (social) media discourse poisoned the waters.

This context doesn't change a lick of anything. What's the alternative? The creators avoid including it because the media would talk about it?

The "media discourse" doesn't change what the developers' original motive was. Judge the work by its own merit, not the surrounding buzz.

I also said I personally don't care if someone is gay or not and that I don't like romance or sex in games either way.

Yes, but you also applied a standard that you wouldn't have applied if it was straight.

I'm not saying it was malice; I don't think it was. I just think it's untenable and nonsensical, and if followed through, would result in creators backing down from representation altogether.

The only thing it'll add will be the obvious bigoted white male antagonist who thinks he can fix lesbianism with his dick

James Bond?

 

[Casual Shinji]

The only thing it'll add will be the obvious bigoted white male antagonist who thinks he can fix lesbianism with his dick.

Well obviously, because if it was a woman, or better yet a woman of colour, it means they'd be pushing an agenda.

That agenda seems to get pushed by the slightest damn thing, doesn't it?

 

[Silentpony_v1legacy]

The only thing it'll add will be the obvious bigoted white male antagonist who thinks he can fix lesbianism with his dick.

Well obviously, because if it was a woman, or better yet a woman of colour, it means they'd be pushing an agenda.

That agenda seems to get pushed by the slightest damn thing, doesn't it?

Oh no its not an agenda, its just lazy writing. Game writers have no idea how to write a lesbian character, save she kisses a woman and a dude thinks she needs a dick.
It was the same shit in the early 00s with gay characters in sitcoms. All of them were just over-the-top fruity gays who likes musicals and interior decorating because that's all the writers associated with gay culture.

 

[Casual Shinji]

The only thing it'll add will be the obvious bigoted white male antagonist who thinks he can fix lesbianism with his dick.

Well obviously, because if it was a woman, or better yet a woman of colour, it means they'd be pushing an agenda.

That agenda seems to get pushed by the slightest damn thing, doesn't it?

Oh no its not an agenda, its just lazy writing. Game writers have no idea how to write a lesbian character, save she kisses a woman and a dude thinks she needs a dick.

No reason to stop trying. And I know people like to get hung up on that kiss, but there's more going on there than just 'look, they're gay'. This was a better "gay kiss" than what was done in the Left Behind DLC.


And this is just an awkward membrane people are gonna have to get through. Because whenever there's a gay kiss on screen people are automatically going to view it as 'Oh, they're just doing that to show they're gay' or 'It's just a PR stunt'. Which yes, does happen, but that mindset isn't going to go away by avoiding it completely. Even if it is lazy writing, it's important to have it be viewed just as normal as a straight couple kissing in whatever summer blockbuster.

 

[Silentpony_v1legacy]

SNIP

I have nothing against her being lesbian, that's just fine. That its a lesbian romance isn't so much an issue as it seems a lazy romance, and one fully intended to set up the aforementioned jerk bigot character, and the inevitable death scene(which will be just a bog standard death scene, but will seem more emotional because of lesbianism)
Again nothing against the lesbianism of Ellie, its her character and that's fine. But it does seem lazy, and I always thought Last of Us was praised for its writing chops, and this just seems like a holding pattern, like they couldn't think of a good enough reason for Ellie to be doing the plot, so lets just go with a standard revenge/find the girlfriend plot, but with a lady protagonist.

If indeed we just need to rip this bandage off to get well-written characters, so be it. That doesn't mean this looks any good.

 

[Casual Shinji]

SNIP

I have nothing against her being lesbian, that's just fine. That its a lesbian romance isn't so much an issue as it seems a lazy romance, and one fully intended to set up the aforementioned jerk bigot character, and the inevitable death scene(which will be just a bog standard death scene, but will seem more emotional because of lesbianism)

Could be, but then the first game opened with what could be described as a bog standard death scene, yet was still pulled off very effectively. Naughty Dog has a way of taking things we've already seen before and putting their own stamp on it. That's kinda been their M.O. since Crash Bandicoot.

Again nothing against the lesbianism of Ellie, its her character and that's fine. But it does seem lazy, and I always thought Last of Us was praised for its writing chops, and this just seems like a holding pattern, like they couldn't think of a good enough reason for Ellie to be doing the plot, so lets just go with a standard revenge/find the girlfriend plot, but with a lady protagonist.

If indeed we just need to rip this bandage off to get well-written characters, so be it. That doesn't mean this looks any good.

The unfortunate thing about the world this game takes place in is that the only proper motivation for the playable character to want or need to leave their place of safety and head out into the dangerous outdoors, is to make something bad befall them, someone they care about, or the place they live. The writing is pretty much on the wall when it comes to Ellie's motivation. And if that is the case, I just hope Naughty Dog manages to buckle down on acting performances and presentation to sell it. I'll point again to Sarah's death in the first game.

 

[Casual Shinji]

The only thing it'll add will be the obvious bigoted white male antagonist who thinks he can fix lesbianism with his dick.

Well obviously, because if it was a woman, or better yet a woman of colour, it means they'd be pushing an agenda.

That agenda seems to get pushed by the slightest damn thing, doesn't it?

Oh no its not an agenda, its just lazy writing. Game writers have no idea how to write a lesbian character, save she kisses a woman and a dude thinks she needs a dick.
It was the same shit in the early 00s with gay characters in sitcoms. All of them were just over-the-top fruity gays who likes musicals and interior decorating because that's all the writers associated with gay culture.

I wonder why any sexuality even needs to be brought into the foray in the first place. It?s going to always come across as being superficial, unnecessarily forced or akward nonsense or an agenda item unless it actually influences the game design and story progression, or even player motivation somehow.

 

[Silentpony_v1legacy]

The only thing it'll add will be the obvious bigoted white male antagonist who thinks he can fix lesbianism with his dick.

Well obviously, because if it was a woman, or better yet a woman of colour, it means they'd be pushing an agenda.

That agenda seems to get pushed by the slightest damn thing, doesn't it?

Oh no its not an agenda, its just lazy writing. Game writers have no idea how to write a lesbian character, save she kisses a woman and a dude thinks she needs a dick.
It was the same shit in the early 00s with gay characters in sitcoms. All of them were just over-the-top fruity gays who likes musicals and interior decorating because that's all the writers associated with gay culture.

I wonder why any sexuality even needs to be brought into the foray in the first place. It?s going to always come across as being superficial, unnecessarily forced or akward nonsense or an agenda item unless it actually influences the game design and story progression, or even player motivation somehow.

I can understand it in a character building way. Humans, ie players, are naturally sexual beings and having a in-game character being sexual adds to the immersion. Makes them feel real. Unfortunately game writers are little better than professional fanfic writers, so romance and sexuality aren't just part of a character or plot, they become central.
and real relationships are 99% day-to-day bullshit and little moments, things writers can't really add because A. it takes up memory and time, and B. they have to pay the voice actors. So all romances are stripped-down, forced and rushed to get to the big 'My lover is dead!' scene at the end of the first act so Ellie can go off on her revenge plot.

 

[Casual Shinji]

I wonder why any sexuality even needs to be brought into the foray in the first place. It?s going to always come across as being superficial, unnecessarily forced or akward nonsense or an agenda item unless it actually influences the game design and story progression, or even player motivation somehow.

It's because any sexuality that isn't hetero still suffers from extreme scrutiny in most of the world. So anybody that isn't hetero is going to find their sexuality to be more of a pressure point. And it would be strange to exclude that from fictional characters. Naughty Dog never even made a point to bring their characters' sexuality into the foray with Bill and Ellie, but this time they might. And again, just because it might be a tightrope doesn't mean it should just be ignored in favour of easier to write heterosexual relationships.

 

[Johnny Novgorod]

From that trailer I'd guess her relationship to that girl is going to be important. Probably as motivation for revenge.

I think Joel abandons Ellie because he finds out she's gay?

Pardon being judgemental but Joel is for all intents and purpose a american southerner/redneck, and those people are stereotyped for being bigotted to gays. And even in the face of human apocoplypse Joel is still bigotted to gays?

Eh? Nothing in TLoU suggests Joel would have any problem with anybody's sexual orientation. Bill's gay, fuck if Joel cares.

 

[Casual Shinji]

I thought the gameplay set a new standard for third person action/adventure. I?m playing through the Remastered one now on Grounded difficulty and it?s a rush. The contextual movement, the deliberate and brutally detailed and melee, the on-the-fly crafting, the aiming ?feeling? human-like vs robotic laser precision, as in you?re not some dead eye master until you gain more experience, the sprinting, finding objects in the environment to use (although this should be more dynamic in the sequel), etc.

I like the combat and surviving by the skin of your teeth type action, but it's a bit disappointing to see the only real advancement being the greater contextual flair. Especially in the wake of games like Horizon: Zero Dawn and God of War, which have a similar graphics heavy, cinematic presentation, but without sacrificing creative gameplay mechanics. Naughty Dog tends to waste its gameplay mechanics on the general default shoot and punch action gameplay.

I wonder how old Ellie was in the dance sequence. She did look a bit younger than in the gameplay. I also am wondering if the original trailer wasn?t even real at all, but a dream or premonition she had about killing them all. Maybe present day Joel is only in her head, and his death has something to do with Ellie?s newfound anger. It could be tied to the girl she was with though as well.

I think she's pretty much the same age during the dance and the gameplay, she just has her hair down a bit in the later. That original trailer was just made for the reveal of the sequel, I think. I doubt you're going to see anything from that sequence in the finished product. And Joel's not dead. It would be a pretty cheap ploy if he was. They're building up his reveal, and letting his absence simmer, because you know, he's Joel -- he's The Man.

God of War and Horizon are more fantasy-based than TLoU, so there?s probably more headroom for creative mechanics. One game has a magical ax skill tree and the other has rideable dino-bots. I love that about them, but I also love that TLoU is more grounded so to speak. It feels more like something that could be possible, so in a way the action is more tangible and relatable. It?s also far more detailed and nuanced to make up for the lack of fantastical extravagance. My hope is that they expand upon what should be possible and also smooth out the rough edges like playing with ladders and crates to get to the next area. Although if Lost Legacy is any indication they probably already did.

 

[Casual Shinji]

I wonder why any sexuality even needs to be brought into the foray in the first place. It?s going to always come across as being superficial, unnecessarily forced or akward nonsense or an agenda item unless it actually influences the game design and story progression, or even player motivation somehow.

It's because any sexuality that isn't hetero still suffers from extreme scrutiny in most of the world. So anybody that isn't hetero is going to find their sexuality to be more of a pressure point. And it would be strange to exclude that from fictional characters. Naughty Dog never even made a point to bring their characters' sexuality into the foray with Bill and Ellie, but this time they might. And again, just because it might be a tightrope doesn't mean it should just be ignored in favour of easier to write heterosexual relationships.

I enjoyed the basic platonic relationship between Nadine and Chloe from Lost Legacy more than Nate and Elana through the previous four games. Maybe it?s becaue I?m male but romance stuff doesn?t really add much of interest for me to a game, or movie for that matter. But oddly enough I don?t mind reading about them like say, in a Stephen King novel for instance.

I know homo is a tougher sell than hetero for ?normalcy? reasons, but to me the more nonchalant either is kept the better.

 

[Casual Shinji]

I enjoyed the basic platonic relationship between Nadine and Chloe from Lost Legacy more than Nate and Elana through the previous four games. Maybe it?s becaue I?m male but romance stuff doesn?t really add much of interest for me to a game, or movie for that matter. But oddly enough I don?t mind reading about them like say, in a Stephen King novel for instance.

I honestly had kind of an issue with how close that platonic relationship got even. It felt a bit forced, since it's two characters together in a Naughty Dog game, thus the law requires they become close friends. I'd much rather that state of animosity kinda remained, but in a more deluted 'just pullin' your chain' sorta way. Like there's still that budding of heads, but there's a sense of mutual respect.

God of War and Horizon are more fantasy-based than TLoU, so there?s probably more headroom for creative mechanics. One game has a magical ax skill tree and the other has rideable dino-bots. I love that about them, but I also love that TLoU is more grounded so to speak. It feels more like something that could be possible, so in a way the action is more tangible and relatable. It?s also far more detailed and nuanced to make up for the lack of fantastical extravagance. My hope is that they expand upon what should be possible and also smooth out the rough edges like playing with ladders and crates to get to the next area. Although I f Lost Legacy is any indication they probably already did.

Yeah, I realize that. I'm not asking for crazy gameplay tricks or anything. I just wished they'd utilize what they have a bit more creatively. Take the rope swinging mechanic from the last two Uncharted games for instance; It feels great to use and to swing around, but that's all it's ever used for. You can't use it to, like, pull enemies over the edge or something, or make them trip up. The rope is just there for this one thing and that's that. You never get the sense that you can really play around with your abilities, even if those abilities are a lot more grounded in reality.


From what it looks like Ellie gets a handy dandy Swiss army knife this time, and I bet you it's probably only going to be used for stealth and melee attacks. Not to maybe solve particular puzzles in a certain way, or craft something, or dismantle traps.

 

[Phoenixmgs_v1legacy]

Interesting idea, sounds like an unique driving force for basically a revenge storyline. Hopefully, the other chick getting killed isn't Ellie's main driving force for the game.

 

[Silentpony_v1legacy]

Interesting idea, sounds like an unique driving force for basically a revenge storyline. Hopefully, the other chick getting killed isn't Ellie's main driving force for the game.

Its a AAA action plot, it'll be one of three things - GF is killed and Ellie gets revenge, GF is kidnapped and Ellie goes to find her, GF betrays the people and Ellie goes to stop her.

 

[Casual Shinji]

I thought the gameplay set a new standard for third person action/adventure. I?m playing through the Remastered one now on Grounded difficulty and it?s a rush. The contextual movement, the deliberate and brutally detailed and melee, the on-the-fly crafting, the aiming ?feeling? human-like vs robotic laser precision, as in you?re not some dead eye master until you gain more experience, the sprinting, finding objects in the environment to use (although this should be more dynamic in the sequel), etc.

I like the combat and surviving by the skin of your teeth type action, but it's a bit disappointing to see the only real advancement being the greater contextual flair. Especially in the wake of games like Horizon: Zero Dawn and God of War, which have a similar graphics heavy, cinematic presentation, but without sacrificing creative gameplay mechanics. Naughty Dog tends to waste its gameplay mechanics on the general default shoot and punch action gameplay.

I wonder how old Ellie was in the dance sequence. She did look a bit younger than in the gameplay. I also am wondering if the original trailer wasn?t even real at all, but a dream or premonition she had about killing them all. Maybe present day Joel is only in her head, and his death has something to do with Ellie?s newfound anger. It could be tied to the girl she was with though as well.

I think she's pretty much the same age during the dance and the gameplay, she just has her hair down a bit in the later. That original trailer was just made for the reveal of the sequel, I think. I doubt you're going to see anything from that sequence in the finished product. And Joel's not dead. It would be a pretty cheap ploy if he was. They're building up his reveal, and letting his absence simmer, because you know, he's Joel -- he's The Man.

God of War and Horizon are more fantasy-based than TLoU, so there?s probably more headroom for creative mechanics. One game has a magical ax skill tree and the other has rideable dino-bots. I love that about them, but I also love that TLoU is more grounded so to speak. It feels more like something that could be possible, so in a way the action is more tangible and relatable. It?s also far more detailed and nuanced to make up for the lack of fantastical extravagance. My hope is that they expand upon what should be possible and also smooth out the rough edges like playing with ladders and crates to get to the next area. Although if Lost Legacy is any indication they probably already did.

I argue Horizon is more Sci-Fi based then fantasy. It doesn't have alot of fantasy tropes.

Kinda the same difference imo. They both open the door to more boundless gameplay possibilities.

I enjoyed the basic platonic relationship between Nadine and Chloe from Lost Legacy more than Nate and Elana through the previous four games. Maybe it?s becaue I?m male but romance stuff doesn?t really add much of interest for me to a game, or movie for that matter. But oddly enough I don?t mind reading about them like say, in a Stephen King novel for instance.

I honestly had kind of an issue with how close that platonic relationship got even. It felt a bit forced, since it's two characters together in a Naughty Dog game, thus the law requires they become close friends. I'd much rather that state of animosity kinda remained, but in a more deluted 'just pullin' your chain' sorta way. Like there's still that budding of heads, but there's a sense of mutual respect.

God of War and Horizon are more fantasy-based than TLoU, so there?s probably more headroom for creative mechanics. One game has a magical ax skill tree and the other has rideable dino-bots. I love that about them, but I also love that TLoU is more grounded so to speak. It feels more like something that could be possible, so in a way the action is more tangible and relatable. It?s also far more detailed and nuanced to make up for the lack of fantastical extravagance. My hope is that they expand upon what should be possible and also smooth out the rough edges like playing with ladders and crates to get to the next area. Although I f Lost Legacy is any indication they probably already did.

Yeah, I realize that. I'm not asking for crazy gameplay tricks or anything. I just wished they'd utilize what they have a bit more creatively. Take the rope swinging mechanic from the last two Uncharted games for instance; It feels great to use and to swing around, but that's all it's ever used for. You can't use it to, like, pull enemies over the edge or something, or make them trip up. The rope is just there for this one thing and that's that. You never get the sense that you can really play around with your abilities, even if those abilities are a lot more grounded in reality.

From what it looks like Ellie gets a handy dandy Swiss army knife this time, and I bet you it's probably only going to be used for stealth and melee attacks. Not to maybe solve particular puzzles in a certain way, or craft something, or dismantle traps.

I would hope they'd do more with a device that's known worldwide to be an all-in-one survival tool. From what they've shown the design for context sensitive stuff has been iterated pretty significantly. I like how you can now grab an object at full sprint and throw it at whomever in one smooth sequence. It makes it feel like the gameplay could be a lot more frantic without being shackled to prior design limitations.

But yeah, I hope there's more to the crafting system this time, and that the environments offer greater capacity for dynamic encounters and more creative "problem solving".

 

[jademunky]

It'll be a factor in the sense that the writers will probably kill her girlfriend off to provide plot fuel. AAA storytelling!!!

Or what Silentpony said.

 

[Silvanus]

It'll be a factor in the sense that the writers will probably kill her girlfriend off to provide plot fuel. AAA storytelling!!!

Or what Silentpony said.

Well, that'd make her relationship a factor, not her orientation.