Is it selfish to prevent people from commiting suicide?
- Thread starter krazykidd
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Not really, it's more just out of disgust that I would refuse to do anything.Housebroken Lunatic said:
It's your body. You have the right to do with it what you want, so long as you aren't hurting others in the process. (Oh, and "making your mother sad" doesn't count as hurting someone else in the process as far as legal matters go. I'm talking about killing someone else in the process, not just causing a sad face or two)
Context doesn't matter. Suicide can be a good choice or a stupid choice, depending on the context. However, selfishness and selflessness in this matter are both in the eye of the beholder. There is no line to be drawn. No clear-cut definition on the matter. One would see a person sacrificing themselves to save others as selfless, while another would see it as selfish- He did it for the glory, knowing that rescue was on the way anyway. Neither person is wrong in this case.
Er... back on topic. Aren't we all "selfish" though? Face it, it's true. With the rare exception of a few truly selfless people, we are all unwilling to spend the money we've saved up for that new car helping poor people in India. We're unwilling to stop eating the food we like while the poor starve. Yet, when people come and say "We're taking a bit of your money to help these people", the response is far less than positive. Human nature has us looking out for ourselves first, and others second. The issue of suicide is no different. To be perfectly honest, the word kind of loses it's meaning when you look at it that way. Why are you on the internet on an off-topic discussion forum when you could be doing volunteer work! You disgust me.
Personally, I say it's no more selfish than any of those things listed above. It's an action in which you kind of ignore what others might think just like almost everything else we do today. The only difference is that the "others" in question in this case refer to all the nameless faces you usually ignore, plus a few more people you usually don't. Big deal.
Context doesn't matter. Suicide can be a good choice or a stupid choice, depending on the context. However, selfishness and selflessness in this matter are both in the eye of the beholder. There is no line to be drawn. No clear-cut definition on the matter. One would see a person sacrificing themselves to save others as selfless, while another would see it as selfish- He did it for the glory, knowing that rescue was on the way anyway. Neither person is wrong in this case.
Er... back on topic. Aren't we all "selfish" though? Face it, it's true. With the rare exception of a few truly selfless people, we are all unwilling to spend the money we've saved up for that new car helping poor people in India. We're unwilling to stop eating the food we like while the poor starve. Yet, when people come and say "We're taking a bit of your money to help these people", the response is far less than positive. Human nature has us looking out for ourselves first, and others second. The issue of suicide is no different. To be perfectly honest, the word kind of loses it's meaning when you look at it that way. Why are you on the internet on an off-topic discussion forum when you could be doing volunteer work! You disgust me.
Personally, I say it's no more selfish than any of those things listed above. It's an action in which you kind of ignore what others might think just like almost everything else we do today. The only difference is that the "others" in question in this case refer to all the nameless faces you usually ignore, plus a few more people you usually don't. Big deal.
You might have a point if you understood what I was saying. You're person A and B tells me you have literally no concept of love. Person A isn't stopping person B because it causes Person A grief, they are doing it because they love them. They want better for them. They want to see them happy again, not for some selfish reason, but because they are capable of love. Your inability to rationalize someone doing something without concern for themselves is depressing. My argument is easy to understand, you just have to care for others more than yourself. When that happens, it's tough for your actions to be selfish.Shadesong said:
I'm not going to waste my time further in a lengthy discussion here. You clearly spend most of your time in self pity, which I understand as I used to do the same. Living in fear of pain attacks is something you can overcome if you truly desire it. Your first step though has to be understanding that you are never in control of your life. You simply do the best with the time you have. Your talk about these clinics also sickens me. I propose exactly one question to you about it. Tell me, exactly what happens when you die? Those clinics might be doing a service if you or I had any way of knowing what happens to people when they die, because for all we know it could be speeding up the process of not existing or B) maybe several of the leading world religions like Islam or Judaism or Christianity is right and there is an afterlife. Considering that, death doesn't necessarily seem like a cut and dry, great thing to accelerate. There is a reason for self preservation, fighting it removes your humanity.SinisterGehe said:
All this is coming from a person who doesn't enjoy life. I may not be suicidal anymore but I sure don't enjoy my time here. However I stopped caring about me, and started using my time to help others. That gives me a reason to wake up in the morning, knowing I can make life better, even if it's just a little, for others. The person I know that has your condition is one of my greatest motivators, she lives for others and as such actually has a smile on her face most of the time. She is an inspiration to us all, and we love her dearly. Because even with her pain and torturous condition, she still finds ways of thinking about others. It is a truly an honor to be her friend. Just something to think about. I hope for both your sake that a treatment becomes available, I know there are several breakthrough treatments being tested as we speak.
Only he's not an insufferable dick in real life, it's his TV personality. Have you ever met the man before? He's probably one of the most humble, respectable celebrities I have ever had the pleasure of meeting.Housebroken Lunatic said:
A tad bit presumptuous, are we? I was like you once. Thinking I knew it all. But, surprise surprise. Wrong again! You don't think I rationalize decisions I make or that they are based firmly in reality? Idealism is not counter-realism. If anything, it is channelling optimism for the sake of bringing real world change. At least, that is the goal.
But if you choose to be powerless, by all means.
Yes, I know what a sociopath is. Didn't know that it has lost all scientific and academic value though. Doesn't mean I wont use it as a label for someone I find to be sociopathic. Seems very similar to the school of thought behind autism.
Funny, I could say the same thing about your stubborn refusal to accept the possibility that humanity might be associated with decency and consideration for others. And frankly, I don't give a crap if others want to view me as experienced and wise. Some already do anyway. I sure as hell don't need to convince the entire world. Hell, I wouldn't care if they hated me. Wouldn't stop me.
Most of the arguments you try to make I at least have an answer for. I'm still waiting on the answer to my original question.
The holocaust happened. There are rapists and serial killers. Lots of civilians died in the war on terror. Therefore, all of humanity is evil.
Right?
Stupid logic right there. Life is only cheap when it becomes a statistic. Why do you think some serial killers try to dehumanize their targets before they kill them. Some can't psychologically cope with the fact that the person might be more than the object their psyche has distorted them into believing they are seeing. Does that not carry some, small significance?
For added warmth. From now on, refer to your family and friends as numbers. That's all they are to you.
You clearly didn't read everything I wrote. I said what if they don't feel all warm and fuzzy after the fact? What if they are walking around feeling guilt or worry? It could happen if they left without closure or if the person was not in the right mindset. And, yes, you can care for strangers. You don't think that if this scenario happened, they would open up to you? After that point, they are no longer strangers.
But you're right. It's very self-righteous and these people should be hated! The correct course of action would be to let it happen. Forget the possibility that it may be the person who is suicidal that may be seeking understanding, or even a need to be heard. That's all nonsense. They are past the point of no return, so just let them do it. It's a lot easier to not do anything at all anyway!
Again, you simplify and generalize. You're assuming that these people are not trying to understand where they are coming from. You're assuming that they are simply following a checklist of 'right things to do' for the sake of achieving sainthood or something. People are not that simple. And while I am sure that there are some who would do it strictly to feel good about themselves, some would try to relate if they could. Besides, I would rather have the douchebag Saint-in-training pretend to relate to someone who is troubled than a bastard who would encourage the guy to off himself.
Also, political turmoil, guerilla warfare, exploitation of farmlands by the west and the list goes on. Lots of people die needlessly, doesn't mean everyone desires more death.
But how is getting pleasure after solving a problem bad or selfish in any way? You did good, you get rewarded. Would you rather be shot in the arm? Or yelled at? Would that make it less selfish? You are being way too broad with the definition and maybe even stepping outside of it.
You can definitely plot your own motivations for doing something, but you cannot plot someone elses. You are not them. You do not know what is going on inside their head so you can only assume. You just have to remember that not every selfless action feels good after the fact, yet some will continue doing it.
You can spin anything a million ways, doesn't make it true. But even though I'm still upset you haven't answered my very simple question, I will play along anyway.
When I got into my first and only car accident, a stranger pulled over to see if I was ok. It was a single car collision (I was cut off by someone) so I was the only one involved. They had checked to see if I was injured, delirious, in shock, all that jazz. Fortunately, the guy happened to be a former police officer so he made all the necessary calls for me. He was a very charitable, respectable guy. His reasons for pulling over, 'he just happened to witness it occur'. What's worse, the guy had to cancel an appointment because the ambulance took far too long to arrive and he refused to leave until it got there. The guy shrugged it off and left as soon as he could. He left me his card and I gave him a bottle of fine wine for all his trouble.
Now, please tell me why I should believe that this man was a actually a selfish douchebag.
Then your complaint is with the dictionary people, not me.
If you remember my very first post, I said I was in favour of suicide if the person was living with unbearable pain that cannot be effectively treated. Especially if they do not have the means to end it themselves.
You can't stop someone who is hell bent on suicide. Hell, you can't stop someone with a stubborn ego. If they really want to kill themselves, they will probably find a way to do it through the path of least resistance. In the uber-rare circumstance that someone is trying to kill themselves in a public domain, they are likely doing so to get some sort of attention because they are desperate. Choosing to be the receiver for their attention is probably doing them a world of good and might even be potentially dangerous for yourself if they have a weapon. But, who's to say that they won't give you some half-assed heart to heart and then off themselves alone? They very well could.
Reiterating what I've said before, if you have ever been in a situation where someone is crying out for understanding, you want to try and understand where they are coming from (or at the very least, you should). There is a possibility that you have been in the same place before, or struggling with the same disease/issue. And if you haven't, they could at the very least talk it out. Any form of direct communication is the path to tranquility.
And you can't take away someone's right to choose unless you somehow physically force them. The person who is suicidal has the only say in what ultimately happens.
As someone who has been suicidal in the past (I'm somewhat better now. Well, a bit better.), I have to say that I truly appreciate the people who intervened when it got serious and stopped me from going through with it.
It's a bit selfish to save someone's life to ease your conscience. But to stop a friend from offing themselves is called being a good friend.
It's a bit selfish to save someone's life to ease your conscience. But to stop a friend from offing themselves is called being a good friend.
I agree. The right to do with one's self what one wishes as well as the rights of the few versus the rights of the many are the crux of this topic, and the consequences go farther and deeper than you may realize. Please consider that.Tanthius said:
Also, I did not say that suicide is not selfish. In fact, I think I drove the selfishness of the act home rather forcefully. Though, I would contend that calling it "disgustingly" selfish is a touch extreme. It is no more "disgustingly" selfish than expecting someone to do something because not doing it would upset someone else.
Also, there are many definitions of love. For example: "Love is the condition in which the happiness of another person is essential to your own," --Robert A. Heinlein. That is, in and of itself, a selfish modus operandi. Though could we agree that is a use of selfishness that benefits others?
I think the elephant in the room that should be addressed is the nature of selfishness. It is true that, as a global culture, we see selfishness as a negative trait. We have all heard the Grandmotherly admonition "Don't be selfish," and that experience has fixed in our heads that "selfish" must be bad. It corrupts our understanding of what it means to be concerned for one's self.
Selfishness can be good as well. For example: "For Queen and Country." There is an unspoken word in that statement: my. "For my Queen and my country" is a far more cumbersome a phrase, but communicates the same idea, "What I do now, I do for what is mine." There are definitions of self that do not, necessarily, concern an individual. For the Americans here, "Remember the Alamo/Maine/WTC/etc." translates rather well into "Remember what they did to us." "Us" is the collective "me" here, and is no more and no less selfish in its disregard of "Them."
I am not saying that suicide is a good example of selfishness, but I posit that it is not necessarily a bad one either.
Please indulge me a parting question. If the individual committing suicide is "weak" because of their inability to cope with their situation, would not those close to this individual also be "weak" for their inability to cope with the loss?
I don't see it as weak or cowardly. I see it as outside the nature of brave or cowardly, it is neither. The real shame in this is that when you don't see it coming you spend the rest of your days wondering what signs you should have looked for. You see, the people in this argument that have not had someone close kill themselves can't actually comprehend it. Ive lost tons of family, several friends, and suffered through 2 suicides. Nothing else is like them. I don't wish I could have saved my uncle so I could feel better, I wish I could have saved him cause I miss him and wish he still had the opportunity to enjoy life. But you spend tons of time every time you think about it wondering what you could have done. It was this realization that stopped me from killing myself. I actually don't take medication for depression anymore, I still suffer from it and my psych and doctor both agree I'm a rare case in that I can deal with it effectively without drugs now. The only reason why was seeing how terrible it is. There is nothing like it, and if you haven't experienced it, and I pray none of you have, it's hard to fathom.Thistlehart said:
As for your line on selfish, you would have a good point if the definition of selfish didn't carry a negative denotation.
Definition of SELFISH
1
: concerned excessively or exclusively with oneself : seeking or concentrating on one's own advantage, pleasure, or well-being without regard for others
2
: arising from concern with one's own welfare or advantage in disregard of others
This is pulled from Webster online, which I think may have it correct. Selfish is not an emotion you can link with protecting ones person or belongings, country, etc. Concern for yourself is fine, it is not selfish, its normal behavior. Concern for yourself at the expense of others is selfishness. That makes a huge difference.
Your original post felt like it didn't apply to me as you did not mention my particular situation. That is why I did not reply to it, but I brought it up because it seemed like it gave an out to the idea that people have no right to say it's bad. Self-Murder is bad, just like murdering someone else is bad. As far as I am concerned there is no difference other than having no target to be mad at.
I don't believe that there is anything after you die, you just stop existing and rot away. There is no afterlife for me, there is no god to be afraid. My life I shit by my standards. And I think those who choose to die trough the clinics aren't afraid anything hypothetical supernatural being. I think they are the bravest people on earth, ready to accept their immortality and willing to let go.Tanthius said:
So your prove of afterlife is based on the fact that there is lot of people who believe there is something after it. You have insulted me in this discussion, not respecting my right to die because there might be a god judging me.
I am a pure atheist, been since birth. I see no prove of existence of gods. I see no reason why I should be afraid of them. This is my life that is reserved for me and only for me, it is not for god or other supernatural idea that is used to suppress people's freedom and thoughts. I do not live for other people, to a country, god or anything like that. I live for myself.
Also, like this great man, that I once knew who died a because of painful cancer that slowly destroyed hes ability to take nutrients and to breath, said: "I believe there is nothing after this, there is no god for you to be afraid. But if there is, soon I will know the truth about it"
If there indeed is something after life, may it be a god or rebirth or whatever. I see that it is my right still to explore this live and use it as I see fit and then face the consequences. If there is a god then this issue of suicide is between me and it. Not between anyone else.
But far as I understand this world. Life is a random accident that could just as well have not happened. No one made it, no one controls it and no one answers for its actions. There is no god to me. So stop insulting me by saying that I should limit my actions because there might be, if there is, he is not my god.
You sir, ma'am, what the fuck ever you are, have insulted my intellect, my freedom and me as a being. I have a right to die and you are in no position to stop me or to stop anyone because of it. If you do stop someone then you deserve to die. You seem to acting like you live trough others, that your being is reflected trough other beings, take responsibility of you own existence and find yourself a reason to exist that doesn't demand other people to it. You apparently need other living beings around you to exist and nothing is more selfish to me than demand the existence of other in order for you to exist yourself.
It can be, but not in and of itself. If I want to stop you killing yourself because I don't want to feel bad about it, or because I'm morally conflicted about letting you do it, then sure. If I want to stop you killing yourself because I think you're just not thinking straight, or because there is a much better way to resolve your problems, then I might be acting in your interests or even for the greater good.krazykidd said:
Consider this as another possible non-selfish reason: Why would I let you kill yourself when that action would inconvenience other people? Can I not act in their interests? Furthermore, suppose there would be nobody directly inconvenienced by your death - couldn't I turn your living body over for medical and scientific research instead, possibly helping millions of people in a way that your self-determined death would exclude?
Is that callous with respect to the person's wishes? Sure. But disregarding your opinion and desire does not make my action selfish.
Killing yourself on train lines - plain selfish. Preventing them from doing so - the opposite of selfish.
By killing yourself in front of a vehicle, you will probably scar the driver who has to witness it - who might then feel like a murderer to no fault of his own - especially a high speed train where turning isn't even an option.
It then takes time to clear up the 'mess' disrupting train lines. That means people don't get to work, don't get home, don't get to interviews, miss funerals, weddings, birthdays etc. So one persons death disrupts 1000s of strangers lives.
I always thought that to some extent that is why suicide is technically illegal in many places. Because I do believe you have the right to take your own life but I don't think it is fair to destroy or disrupt other people's in doing so.
I don't mind people commiting suicide. I gave up caring a while ago when it used to freak me out that anyone I knew could do it at any moment. But I think you need to be considerate if you have a family and at the very least you have no life insurance to cover you. Then I see it as terribly selfish and you're fucking up other people's lives beyond the usual 'you're going to emotionally hurt your family and friends by doing it'.
By killing yourself in front of a vehicle, you will probably scar the driver who has to witness it - who might then feel like a murderer to no fault of his own - especially a high speed train where turning isn't even an option.
It then takes time to clear up the 'mess' disrupting train lines. That means people don't get to work, don't get home, don't get to interviews, miss funerals, weddings, birthdays etc. So one persons death disrupts 1000s of strangers lives.
I always thought that to some extent that is why suicide is technically illegal in many places. Because I do believe you have the right to take your own life but I don't think it is fair to destroy or disrupt other people's in doing so.
I don't mind people commiting suicide. I gave up caring a while ago when it used to freak me out that anyone I knew could do it at any moment. But I think you need to be considerate if you have a family and at the very least you have no life insurance to cover you. Then I see it as terribly selfish and you're fucking up other people's lives beyond the usual 'you're going to emotionally hurt your family and friends by doing it'.
I asked you to question these things. I did not push anything on you at all. Your decision to flip out like someone just threw a bible at you was your decision, not mine. I merely asked you to question what happens when you die. I never even presented a position on what happens, I tossed out a few possibilities. Casting life away is foolish when you don't know what exists beyond it. To me it seems ludicrous to even think you can make an informed and intelligent decision when you literally have no idea what happens next. I take the stance I do from a position of experience, I try to stop suicide everywhere I find it, because I do not worship death. I believe in promoting people to better the lives of everyone around them, if you do not have the strength to improve someone else life then it's time to try harder. This planet has enough egocentric individuals but rather than get rid of people who I don't agree with I beg you to live... odd that isn't it?SinisterGehe said:
You latched on to a small part of what I said to you and let it drive you to anger, and anger over what? You're ability to murder yourself? When you calm down you should reread your last paragraph and tell me it sounds like its coming from a person of rational and sound mind. Saying that people deserve to die because they stop people from killing themselves is perhaps one of the darkest and saddest comments I've heard in a long time. Also your haphazard attack on my position seems to miss the entire point of "dying to self". The idea that I need others to exist in order for myself to exist is odd... I don't think you understand the concept of selflessness. I demand nothing of other people, I simply offer what I can give. What good have you ever done the world by dwelling on yourself, your rights, your "humanity." Who benefits from you focusing on just you. Leave your mark on the world by leaving it a better place for your having been here, but to do that you have to focus on other people. And someone can't do that when they're dead. That is why suicide is selfish. I used to be the most selfish bastard around. I hope you come to a better place in your thinking soon. I'm sure you would have a great number of positive things to contribute if you focused on them, you're obviously a bright individual.
Oh calm down. Having a bible thumped in your direction isn't an insult. People are going to express their beliefs. If I was a religious man, should your proclamation of atheism be an insult to my intellect and "me as a being"? You sound like more of a zealot than they did.SinisterGehe said:
As to the question of suicide and selfishness...
Going purely by the most rapidly available definition of selfishness...a sort of extraordinary level of self-interest that knowingly burdens others in order to benefit oneself...yes, suicide is selfish, and no, trying to prevent a suicide is not selfish. Self-interested, perhaps, but not selfish. While you might be acting to prevent pain for yourself, you're also intervening to prevent pain caused to others, and even more specifically to prevent death in the case of the suicidal individual. That's closer to altruism than selfishness.
Naturally this cannot and should not include doctor assisted suicide in the case of extraordinary suffering or terminal and debilitating illness. Life should only be considered preferable to death if said life has some semblance of quality, or at least a reasonable hope that it can be attained. Excepting someone to suffer to an unreasonable extent because you're uncomfortable with loss or the spiritual ramifications of suicide? Selfish.
However, "extraordinary suffering" does not include teenage angst, clinical depressions or roils of self-pity about how you're alone in the universe and no one can understand your trials and tribulations, as if this wasn't transitional and something everyone goes through at some point or another, and comes out the other side just fine.
Finally, a suicide/suicide prevention isn't a 1:1 pact between the suicidee and the preventing party, where one is selfish and the other is not. Regardless of how mean and tiny you feel your life is, the web of your family, friends and acquaintances...the web of lives that you affect just by existing...is always a lot broader than you realize. You can cause pain, guilt, confusion and grief in INNUMERABLE people just to relieve your own (often temporary) suffering with an act of suicide. And that pain, guilt, confusion and grief can last a life time for those people, and seriously negate their own quality of life.
So...in the vast majority of cases...suicide is a horribly selfish, thoughtless act, and if you do something to prevent it, you should feel proud of yourself. If that's self interest, we could use a little more of it.
One of my friends committed suicide a month ago. He was one of the happiest and nicest people I have known in my entire life and in the time leading up to the incident he had everything in the world to look forward to. He also had clinical depression.Housebroken Lunatic said:
Do you think he was an idiot?
I don't think it's selfish to stop someone killing themselves. A lot of people who have attempted suicide and been saved have said that when it came right down to it, they realized that they didn't want to die. Then again, I also tend to think suicide is kind of selfish, too. I was crippingly insecure and depressed when I was in high school, and I thought about ending it all. but then I thought about the kind of effect it would have on my family and friends. More than anything else, that is what dissuaded me. I didn't care about my life (and I didn't really think anyone else did either), but I didn't want them to have to deal with the stigma of being the family of a girl who killed herself.