Is it time for feminists to step off our hobby?

[kelstra]

Well, I'm going to have to say I disagree, in no small part because your arguments against feminists speaking their minds sound a lot like the arguments BioWare made when they wanted people to stop complaining about Mass Effect 3's ridiculous ending. The way I see it, there aren't enough major developers out their for gamers to just give up and buy someone else's games when the developers are clearly doing their jobs wrong, and when they are, the customers have the right to call them out on it, so long as it doesn't become harassment. Some people may disagree with feminists and say that the boob plate isn't sexist, just like how some people think that the reapers murdering trillions of people every 50,000 years is a logical way to prevent organic lifeforms from fighting with synthetic lifeforms, but the naysayers have the right to speak their minds in the hopes that developers will get their acts together.

I do tend to agree with ObserverStatus here. There seem to be in this thread a sad amount of defensive egotism claiming rights to an industry that they did not personally create and have been grognards lately to maintain an inflated position. This is a wide and varied community and has always been that way. Women have always been involved. Like foreigners, (Americans, Europeans, Asians, Africans, and all those others, what are they, Islanders), we are all in this industry, pull your heads out of your dark holes. You would have to be pretty blind to claim otherwise. Harassment and threats are never acceptable in a community and claiming that one persons standard of abuse must be acceptable for everyone is fractious and stupid. We do need to respect and act in accordance with the law. That being said, bad writing will always be bad, and 90% of everything is low ball tosh. You only need to read the reviews for this site to see that. Instead of actual characters many players are stuck with terrible scripting, artwork and pandering to a stereotype of the market which never really existed and doesn't exist now. But hey at least a proportion of the market will still buy it right, even if you dislike the characters, plot, gameplay and mechanics you will still play the game right. There is just a niggling feeling at the back of your skull that someone somewhere developing and designing it could have done a whole lot better, left the office once in a while, did some research and had enough passion to produce a stunning winner to join the other 10% of output. That being said thank Eris for tabletop games and role-playing. Because if you really want to maintain control to keep a game to a low status quo or broaden the script the tools are there. I picked up a roleplaying system the other day out of interest which was produced around a base of Indian culture. It surprisingly had more meat in it than the Last of Us, Tome Raider or Risen 3 combined. All of which could not fill the blood and iron requirements of my diet.

 

[Nieroshai]

First, warning, I am a woman, but I am not a feminist. However, I have friends that are and I do read some blogs written by them, and I do like to read up on some of the girl gaming sites to get different perspectives.

So I went to go look up Bioshock Infinite getting bad reviews, and The Last of Us bad reviews for the sexist angle by feminists because I hadn't heard of that much backlash. Well, none on the BI, and only some of Last of Us. It was kind of like my surprise over people saying feminists were in a frenzy over Saints Row IV, I hadn't heard that either. I was expecting something huge, I mean, the way you're speaking I was expecting some sort of huge movement in the gaming industry where women were speaking out against Elizabeth and Ellie.

For the most part all I saw was general irritation that we couldn't play as either person. And most did say "the story may have not fit the narrative, yes, but come on, you got a great female character right there, and we still can't play as her? Why are you teasing us this way?"

Most women that have issues in the gaming industry is just the fact that sometimes they'd like to have some narrative from a different perspective. We're not trying to "take over your hobby" since we need to possibly step off it. There's nothing wrong with creating some new story lines. Why not have Nintendo do a Mario story where Peach is the main character going out to save Mario? Hell, at least it would shake up the franchise a bit.

From a writers perspective, it's lazy story telling. They fall back on the same tropes over and over again, and that's where it comes down to. Yeah, of course you can have it be another dead female prostitute in LA Noire, but wouldn't it have been kind of interesting to find a male prostitute dead? For that time period, think of the story that might have set off. Think about all the twists and turns you could have had with that.

It's not only sexism, it's being lazy and complacent because people will still buy the games. Hell, I still buy the games. But I have to say, it would have been kind of fun to see what kind of trouble I could have gotten into playing as Elizabeth instead of just Booker.

This is why I like the term "Feminazi." True feminism is a push towards sexual equality, espoused by forward-thinking men as well as women. Feminazis are the female branch of the Entitlement Culture. I feel the OP is entirely reacting to current backlash, to have missed what you directly found.
As for Peach being a Main, I don't know if or when that'll happen again. Zelda having to draw the Master Sword because the Hero never appeared, and learning she had the spirit of the hero in her all along? That would be fun as well as an empowerment message that wouldn't stomp on the neck of the IP.

 

[IceStar100]

First, warning, I am a woman, but I am not a feminist. However, I have friends that are and I do read some blogs written by them, and I do like to read up on some of the girl gaming sites to get different perspectives.

So I went to go look up Bioshock Infinite getting bad reviews, and The Last of Us bad reviews for the sexist angle by feminists because I hadn't heard of that much backlash. Well, none on the BI, and only some of Last of Us. It was kind of like my surprise over people saying feminists were in a frenzy over Saints Row IV, I hadn't heard that either. I was expecting something huge, I mean, the way you're speaking I was expecting some sort of huge movement in the gaming industry where women were speaking out against Elizabeth and Ellie.

For the most part all I saw was general irritation that we couldn't play as either person. And most did say "the story may have not fit the narrative, yes, but come on, you got a great female character right there, and we still can't play as her? Why are you teasing us this way?"

Most women that have issues in the gaming industry is just the fact that sometimes they'd like to have some narrative from a different perspective. We're not trying to "take over your hobby" since we need to possibly step off it. There's nothing wrong with creating some new story lines. Why not have Nintendo do a Mario story where Peach is the main character going out to save Mario? Hell, at least it would shake up the franchise a bit.

From a writers perspective, it's lazy story telling. They fall back on the same tropes over and over again, and that's where it comes down to. Yeah, of course you can have it be another dead female prostitute in LA Noire, but wouldn't it have been kind of interesting to find a male prostitute dead? For that time period, think of the story that might have set off. Think about all the twists and turns you could have had with that.

It's not only sexism, it's being lazy and complacent because people will still buy the games. Hell, I still buy the games. But I have to say, it would have been kind of fun to see what kind of trouble I could have gotten into playing as Elizabeth instead of just Booker.

This is why I like the term "Feminazi." True feminism is a push towards sexual equality, espoused by forward-thinking men as well as women. Feminazis are the female branch of the Entitlement Culture. I feel the OP is entirely reacting to current backlash, to have missed what you directly found.
As for Peach being a Main, I don't know if or when that'll happen again. Zelda having to draw the Master Sword because the Hero never appeared, and learning she had the spirit of the hero in her all along? That would be fun as well as an empowerment message that wouldn't stomp on the neck of the IP.

That last part on Zelda yeah it would. Unless the undo all of skyword sword no one but LINK can draw the master sword. Kind of like it's DNA locked to him. Nothing really to do with the soul of a hero any more. Plus why use the Master sword why make her follow that path. You could have a whole new game. Which also make me wonder why make her follow like she some palate swap of Link. She has magic and the mind of a master strategist. Make her a hero in her own right. Think what they could do.

 

[omega 616]

No.

I wouldn't call myself a feminist (to me, it sounds like white supremacists just what equality), I do want equal representation in our media. I want to play as a gay guy, a non sexualized woman, a trans-person, a person who at the start isn't sure of who they are but during the game (which is totally unrelated to the protagonists goal) finds themselves. (like playing Mass Effect but every so often they have a conversation about who or what they are into).

I am just bored as fuck of certain things in gaming, such has playing as a 20-40 year old white male (usually with brown hair). I am bored of skimpy armor or clothing in general on women. It's why when I can, I play as women in games (saints row and elder scrolls), then dress them up in NORMAL clothes ... in saints row, I had a woman that mainly wore a black business suit with saints colored high heels and accessories, she was womanly but didn't look like a whore!

I can't see how any kind of diversity is bad, why are you all so intent on playing as the same person?

Tough. You're a feminist. (But it's OK. That's a good thing!)

Also, speaking of Saint's Row, I think it's worth it to keep in mind that Steve Jaros actually welcomes feminist critique.

Nope, I refuse that title ... despite what the old school definition is, there is a new definition of it and it's not for the equality for both sexes! It is the betterment of one over the other.

Women want equal pay to men but they don't want to pay for meals ... they want the saying "women and children first" to still apply but men have to ask women out.

Of course, not all women are like this or all feminists but if that is the public perception of feminism is, then no matter what the correct meaning is, feminism will be women over men.

It's not about the correct definition of the word, it's how people view the people who call themselves that.

Call me, some made up word like equalist or something but feminist is obviously comes from feminine AKA woman, so it's "for women" (not woman exclusive but "lets empower women"), I want nothing to do with that. I want people to be equal, not women ... I want trans people to be equal, gay people to be equal etc

 

[carnex]

I have heard of that slanted/loaded study several times, asked for study itself and didn't get the answer. I looked around the net, didn't find any study that would fit your description. Can you point me in direction of that study?

You'll have to wait until the next MRA assaults me with it. I don't keep it on hand because I'm not normally the one attempting to produce it. The British one frequently cited is the equivalent of the Klan releasing a study to the effect that white people are the most discriminated against, but there's more than one study used and they have different issues.

But since it's not my argument, I don't keep "men are raped more than women" studies around. Hell, I don't generally keep links to any study I find disingenuous, "my side" or otherwise.

So, that's a very elaborate no? It's not like anything you mentioned here for a reason why you don't want to discloses makes any sense in that context. It's not gonna wear out or change or whatever. This is exactly the type of response that makes people, me included, that it's actually imaginary, made up.

 

[Nieroshai]

First, warning, I am a woman, but I am not a feminist. However, I have friends that are and I do read some blogs written by them, and I do like to read up on some of the girl gaming sites to get different perspectives.

So I went to go look up Bioshock Infinite getting bad reviews, and The Last of Us bad reviews for the sexist angle by feminists because I hadn't heard of that much backlash. Well, none on the BI, and only some of Last of Us. It was kind of like my surprise over people saying feminists were in a frenzy over Saints Row IV, I hadn't heard that either. I was expecting something huge, I mean, the way you're speaking I was expecting some sort of huge movement in the gaming industry where women were speaking out against Elizabeth and Ellie.

For the most part all I saw was general irritation that we couldn't play as either person. And most did say "the story may have not fit the narrative, yes, but come on, you got a great female character right there, and we still can't play as her? Why are you teasing us this way?"

Most women that have issues in the gaming industry is just the fact that sometimes they'd like to have some narrative from a different perspective. We're not trying to "take over your hobby" since we need to possibly step off it. There's nothing wrong with creating some new story lines. Why not have Nintendo do a Mario story where Peach is the main character going out to save Mario? Hell, at least it would shake up the franchise a bit.

From a writers perspective, it's lazy story telling. They fall back on the same tropes over and over again, and that's where it comes down to. Yeah, of course you can have it be another dead female prostitute in LA Noire, but wouldn't it have been kind of interesting to find a male prostitute dead? For that time period, think of the story that might have set off. Think about all the twists and turns you could have had with that.

It's not only sexism, it's being lazy and complacent because people will still buy the games. Hell, I still buy the games. But I have to say, it would have been kind of fun to see what kind of trouble I could have gotten into playing as Elizabeth instead of just Booker.

This is why I like the term "Feminazi." True feminism is a push towards sexual equality, espoused by forward-thinking men as well as women. Feminazis are the female branch of the Entitlement Culture. I feel the OP is entirely reacting to current backlash, to have missed what you directly found.
As for Peach being a Main, I don't know if or when that'll happen again. Zelda having to draw the Master Sword because the Hero never appeared, and learning she had the spirit of the hero in her all along? That would be fun as well as an empowerment message that wouldn't stomp on the neck of the IP.

That last part on Zelda yeah it would. Unless the undo all of skyword sword no one but LINK can draw the master sword. Kind of like it's DNA locked to him. Nothing really to do with the soul of a hero any more. Plus why use the Master sword why make her follow that path. You could have a whole new game. Which also make me wonder why make her follow like she some palate swap of Link. She has magic and the mind of a master strategist. Make her a hero in her own right. Think what they could do.

There's that. Even then, I am NOT saying make her wear green and never speak, etc I'm saying there's plenty of reason to make her the hero. Also, the official Zelda canon is that canon changes every time a new installment comes out. They admitted that they nearly finish the game before even thinking about the story, and the situation would be that they made a female lead but the writers had to figure out what to do with her. And DNA? Do we have any direct confirmation that all Links are descended from the first one? Despite that being impossible? Zeldas are a direct line because it literally is a royal line of succession, but Link's ALWAYS been a reincarnation. In fact, Link from the Windwaker wasn't even supposed to be the hero, he was just lucky. Then there's Tetra, who turned white to inherit her princess-ness to "correct" her hereditary link to the first Zelda.

 

[Catrixa]

Oh boy.

This is gunna get buried under mountains of other conversations, but I'm going to continue mashing my fingers into some plastic like it isn't. So, members of the Escapist (or lurkers who have run into this thread), let's play a game! No worries, it's not that fun, so you don't have to tell me your score or anything. Now! Onto the game! The rules are: you can't look anything up, you have to remember things you've seen (not all that hard). Of all the controversies surrounding feminism, how many did you see at the source first? For example, a big feminist blogger talking about video games in a way that made everyone angry AFTER you read the blog? Now, how many controversies did you hear about AFTER they blew up and made everyone angry?

If you're in any way like me, most of these things you've seen after people have gone ragetastic all over them. I did not see the initial angry post about Zoe Quinn, nor did I ever see anything she had written about feminism. But I did see mouth-frothing posts about how she completely ruined gaming (isn't gaming getting completely ruined on an hourly basis now?) and how she was getting a boatload of death threats. Hell, I played Depression Quest one when it was a web game, said "yup, this game is depressing, depression sucks," saw it come out on Steam, and completely forgot about it until all of this controversy came about. Hell, I didn't even know about Feminist Frequency until people were sending Anita death threats. Are we seriously worried about people whose only notable actions have been stating their opinions on stuff? I mean, if we want to talk about getting rid of feminists because everyone in gaming is too immature to comprehend other people having thoughts they may not share, let's talk about that. I think the fact that this might be the problem a bigger issue than feminists existing, but whatever.

Let's play another game. Find a blog about women in gaming. Now, replace all instances where it talks about poor representation of women with bad voice acting, or clunky controls, or convoluted level design. Does the blog now say "we should get rid of gaming entirely, because the developers can't seem to include working controls?" if so, quit getting your blogs from tumblr. Does your real (seriously, tumblr is not "all of feminism ever," if you pretend it is, please stop. The WBC is not all of Christianity, either) blog now say something like, "voice acting in gaming could really use some fine-tuning"? If someone disagreed with this article about voice acting, do you think it would be reasonable for the author of it to get hacked, doxxed, have their life and family threatened, or have every gaming site up in arms about it? If no, what is it about women that gets people so crazy? We can criticize gameplay, story, characters, voice acting, music loadouts, level-up sounds, enemy types, controls, menus, I could go on forever, but if we say a thing about diversity, suddenly we're just creating games by committee, and they're all about ponies or something. Like that isn't happening with bland shooters already anyway ('cept these ones are all about the same muscle guy shooting brown-colored enemies through some kind of scope pushed up his nose).

...Can we just go back to arguing about how the latest Call of Duty is ruining gaming with its brown levels and overpriced map packs? I'm still mad about that, honestly.

 

[Maphysto]

If you think feminists need to "step off" of anything, you're probably part of the problem.

 

[Phasmal]

Women want equal pay to men but they don't want to pay for meals ... they want the saying "women and children first" to still apply but men have to ask women out.

Of course, not all women are like this or all feminists but if that is the public perception of feminism is, then no matter what the correct meaning is, feminism will be women over men.

I also have it on good authority that girls don't like boys.
Girls like cars and money.

Sorry, I know you added a little qualifier but these types of posts are always funny to me. They always sound like some people only know women and men who live in Stereotopia.

I've got to stop popping into threads just to add bad jokes. But it's so fun. :'(

OT: Still no. Gaming is just going through a bit of a weird phase. I'm hoping it'll come out decently on the other side, and maybe we can stop assuming stuff about people. I mean, I try not to assume that everyone against greater diversity is a reactionary gatekeeper who just wants to try and cling to some perceived ownership of our collective hobby.

 

[mecegirl]

Hey, if it gets more non-straight white males* in games, then sure they can stay as long as the like (although I'm not sure how one would go about suddenly "getting rid of them")

*[sub]I say this as a straight, white male, by the way. I just want something a little different[/sub]

Anyway, I've not heard of these "feminist demands" of which you speak. Were they etched in stone by Anita Sarkeesian, by any chance?

This is directed at everyone who shares the opinion, not just you but:
"Hey, if it gets more non-straight white males* in games, then sure they can stay as long as they like"
Why do we want this?
I mean sure, its not a bad thing if the character is different but I can't name a single game where the characters sexuality, gender or race would change a bloody thing.
Well except maybe gender, but it normally wouldn't change the game itself in any meaningful way.

A game is not going to be held up or even majorly effected by any of these factors. I'd prefer they put effort into the personality/character of the protag rather than what they look like.
Or hell, heres an idea; The gameplay!

Honestly, for myself, I'm just sick of seeing the same 20-30 year old white guy with (probably) brown hair.

For those that aren't "the norm", I imagine it will be nice for them to have some representation. I have no idea how that would feel obviously, so perhaps someone who isn't a straight white male would be able to explain better.

It depends on who's asking. As someone who is black and female the chances of ever seeing a black women in games, yet alone as a protagonist is at an all time high of 5% in the history of ever. So me personally, I've accepted this (sadly) and don't even bother trying to argue. Just advocating for women protags in general is tiring enough. A black one? Fat chance.

Of course if I did see one, man oh man would I be so fucking happy....but yeah...not happening any time soon.

Ditto to this... I have to say that with most media I watch, as a black female, its either or. You get used to seeing any diversity either be a black man, or a white woman. Anything else is a big(but welcome) surprise.

 

[omega 616]

Women want equal pay to men but they don't want to pay for meals ... they want the saying "women and children first" to still apply but men have to ask women out.

Of course, not all women are like this or all feminists but if that is the public perception of feminism is, then no matter what the correct meaning is, feminism will be women over men.

I also have it on good authority that girls don't like boys.
Girls like cars and money.

Sorry, I know you added a little qualifier but these types of posts are always funny to me. They always sound like some people only know women and men who live in Stereotopia.

I've got to stop popping into threads just to add bad jokes. But it's so fun. :'(

OT: Still no. Gaming is just going through a bit of a weird phase. I'm hoping it'll come out decently on the other side, and maybe we can stop assuming stuff about people. I mean, I try not to assume that everyone against greater diversity is a reactionary gatekeeper who just wants to try and cling to some perceived ownership of our collective hobby.

I've asked girls if they would ask a guy out and they say "no, that is a guys job" ... in a life and death situation is a guy going to say "fuck the women and children, everybody for themselves!" ....

I just can't see women giving up some of these goodies they have, in order to negate the negatives they have. I'm not saying women the world over should meet up and discuss whether they should give up having meals paid for them in exchange for equal pay.

I just can't see "yay, we have equal pay ... what do you mean now I can pay for a few dinners?".

 

[Phasmal]

I've asked girls if they would ask a guy out and they say "no, that is a guys job" ... in a life and death situation is a guy going to say "fuck the women and children, everybody for themselves!" ....

I just can't see women giving up some of these goodies they have, in order to negate the negatives they have. I'm not saying women the world over should meet up and discuss whether they should give up having meals paid for them in exchange for equal pay.

I just can't see "yay, we have equal pay ... what do you mean now I can pay for a few dinners?".

I am trying to remember the last time a guy paid for a meal for me. I think it was on my birthday, four years ago.
Funny, actually, I was in a restaurant not long ago, taking my boyfriend and his brother out to a meal, and I had asked for the bill, and had my card and purse in my hand, and the guy still hands the bill to my boyfriend's brother. It made me laugh.

Anyway, just because you personally can't `see` it, well...

Oh come on I don't really have to argue that's it's maybe not the best idea to base your entire ideas about feminism on some very anecdotal experiences?

Also you do know the `women and children first` thing was pretty much just a myth, right?
And now we have enough lifeboats for everyone so I guess we're cool right?

Hah, I'm pretty sure I've barked up this tree before, so I won't get upset because you see it like you see it, even if I personally think it's a little silly.

 

[omega 616]

I've asked girls if they would ask a guy out and they say "no, that is a guys job" ... in a life and death situation is a guy going to say "fuck the women and children, everybody for themselves!" ....

I just can't see women giving up some of these goodies they have, in order to negate the negatives they have. I'm not saying women the world over should meet up and discuss whether they should give up having meals paid for them in exchange for equal pay.

I just can't see "yay, we have equal pay ... what do you mean now I can pay for a few dinners?".

I am trying to remember the last time a guy paid for a meal for me. I think it was on my birthday, four years ago.
Funny, actually, I was in a restaurant not long ago, taking my boyfriend and his brother out to a meal, and I had asked for the bill, and had my card and purse in my hand, and the guy still hands the bill to my boyfriend's brother. It made me laugh.

Anyway, just because you personally can't `see` it, well...

Oh come on I don't really have to argue that's it's maybe not the best idea to base your entire ideas about feminism on some very anecdotal experiences?

Also you do know the `women and children first` thing was pretty much just a myth, right?
And now we have enough lifeboats for everyone so I guess we're cool right?

Hah, I'm pretty sure I've barked up this tree before, so I won't get upset because you see it like you see it, even if I personally think it's a little silly.

It's more than anecdotes, it's something that's ingrained into our culture. Things like "you don't hit a woman", it's not "you don't hit people".

It's the guy who asks the girl out, it's the guy who proposes, it's the guy who pays for the date ... I am not saying these are 100% true in every case ... girls ask guys out all the time, girls have been known to propose and you just said you attempted to pay for a date.

I am talking about socially ingrained things that the masses agree on ... what we talk about on here doesn't really matter, what does it matter is if the majority thinks.

Take music, pop is obviously short for popular music but I barely class pop as music. I think it is total trash made by people who have no love for music, they have a love for money and they chose music as an easy way to make money. However, the popular opinion is "it's good" and so remains popular music.

It's not about my singular thoughts, it's about the collective population thinks ... I think in the right circumstances, you can justify hitting a woman, (have you read any bunny boiler stories?) just as much as you can justify hitting a man but the collective population thinks "under circumstances hit a woman, they are made of glass and can't take it!"

 

[timeformime]

First, warning, I am a woman, but I am not a feminist. However, I have friends that are and I do read some blogs written by them, and I do like to read up on some of the girl gaming sites to get different perspectives.

So I went to go look up Bioshock Infinite getting bad reviews, and The Last of Us bad reviews for the sexist angle by feminists because I hadn't heard of that much backlash. Well, none on the BI, and only some of Last of Us. It was kind of like my surprise over people saying feminists were in a frenzy over Saints Row IV, I hadn't heard that either. I was expecting something huge, I mean, the way you're speaking I was expecting some sort of huge movement in the gaming industry where women were speaking out against Elizabeth and Ellie.

For the most part all I saw was general irritation that we couldn't play as either person. And most did say "the story may have not fit the narrative, yes, but come on, you got a great female character right there, and we still can't play as her? Why are you teasing us this way?"

Most women that have issues in the gaming industry is just the fact that sometimes they'd like to have some narrative from a different perspective. We're not trying to "take over your hobby" since we need to possibly step off it. There's nothing wrong with creating some new story lines. Why not have Nintendo do a Mario story where Peach is the main character going out to save Mario? Hell, at least it would shake up the franchise a bit.

From a writers perspective, it's lazy story telling. They fall back on the same tropes over and over again, and that's where it comes down to. Yeah, of course you can have it be another dead female prostitute in LA Noire, but wouldn't it have been kind of interesting to find a male prostitute dead? For that time period, think of the story that might have set off. Think about all the twists and turns you could have had with that.

It's not only sexism, it's being lazy and complacent because people will still buy the games. Hell, I still buy the games. But I have to say, it would have been kind of fun to see what kind of trouble I could have gotten into playing as Elizabeth instead of just Booker.

You got your wish! The best DLC for BI, Burial at Sea Ep. 2, is all from Elizabeth's perspective.

 

[QuietlyListening]

Most feminists I know are all about equality. Granted, I know a couple of radfems who think that sex is inherently oppressive and some that are hostile to transpersons, but they're few and far between. As a feminist myself, I consider the issue to be more about equal pay or who asks who out on a date. There are lots of structures in society that oppress both men and women, shoving them into categories that they shouldn't be forced to live in. A big part of what reinforces these structures is how men and women are portrayed in popular culture. Considering that games are such a rapidly growing medium, and the breadth of the audience that games reach, calling for higher standards in the portrayal of gender is a worthy and productive cause.

Not only that, but as someone who also greatly enjoys games and enjoys watching them grow as an art form, I believe it's good for the art to demand greater care, skill, and sophistication in the final product.

So yeah. Go feminism!

 

[IceStar100]

First, warning, I am a woman, but I am not a feminist. However, I have friends that are and I do read some blogs written by them, and I do like to read up on some of the girl gaming sites to get different perspectives.

So I went to go look up Bioshock Infinite getting bad reviews, and The Last of Us bad reviews for the sexist angle by feminists because I hadn't heard of that much backlash. Well, none on the BI, and only some of Last of Us. It was kind of like my surprise over people saying feminists were in a frenzy over Saints Row IV, I hadn't heard that either. I was expecting something huge, I mean, the way you're speaking I was expecting some sort of huge movement in the gaming industry where women were speaking out against Elizabeth and Ellie.

For the most part all I saw was general irritation that we couldn't play as either person. And most did say "the story may have not fit the narrative, yes, but come on, you got a great female character right there, and we still can't play as her? Why are you teasing us this way?"

Most women that have issues in the gaming industry is just the fact that sometimes they'd like to have some narrative from a different perspective. We're not trying to "take over your hobby" since we need to possibly step off it. There's nothing wrong with creating some new story lines. Why not have Nintendo do a Mario story where Peach is the main character going out to save Mario? Hell, at least it would shake up the franchise a bit.

From a writers perspective, it's lazy story telling. They fall back on the same tropes over and over again, and that's where it comes down to. Yeah, of course you can have it be another dead female prostitute in LA Noire, but wouldn't it have been kind of interesting to find a male prostitute dead? For that time period, think of the story that might have set off. Think about all the twists and turns you could have had with that.

It's not only sexism, it's being lazy and complacent because people will still buy the games. Hell, I still buy the games. But I have to say, it would have been kind of fun to see what kind of trouble I could have gotten into playing as Elizabeth instead of just Booker.

This is why I like the term "Feminazi." True feminism is a push towards sexual equality, espoused by forward-thinking men as well as women. Feminazis are the female branch of the Entitlement Culture. I feel the OP is entirely reacting to current backlash, to have missed what you directly found.
As for Peach being a Main, I don't know if or when that'll happen again. Zelda having to draw the Master Sword because the Hero never appeared, and learning she had the spirit of the hero in her all along? That would be fun as well as an empowerment message that wouldn't stomp on the neck of the IP.

That last part on Zelda yeah it would. Unless the undo all of skyword sword no one but LINK can draw the master sword. Kind of like it's DNA locked to him. Nothing really to do with the soul of a hero any more. Plus why use the Master sword why make her follow that path. You could have a whole new game. Which also make me wonder why make her follow like she some palate swap of Link. She has magic and the mind of a master strategist. Make her a hero in her own right. Think what they could do.

There's that. Even then, I am NOT saying make her wear green and never speak, etc I'm saying there's plenty of reason to make her the hero. Also, the official Zelda canon is that canon changes every time a new installment comes out. They admitted that they nearly finish the game before even thinking about the story, and the situation would be that they made a female lead but the writers had to figure out what to do with her. And DNA? Do we have any direct confirmation that all Links are descended from the first one? Despite that being impossible? Zeldas are a direct line because it literally is a royal line of succession, but Link's ALWAYS been a reincarnation. In fact, Link from the Windwaker wasn't even supposed to be the hero, he was just lucky. Then there's Tetra, who turned white to inherit her princess-ness to "correct" her hereditary link to the first Zelda.

One Zelda has already had her own game wand of the goblin I believe we don't talk about that. Anyway it kind of insulting. Basically lets give Link boobs. Be the same as making Samus a male just because now male hero are more interesting. Look at Devil may cry and Bayanetta. Both from the same guy and in the same Gene but they fight different act different and are different. And with respect I mean it to me what you suggest is not empowering it's pandering. It's taking to low easy rowed to make a few bucks off a markets swing. That saying she has such low important and can be thrown anywhere just to suit a need it take away her personality. She is the leader and hope of her people Link is her right hand. She no longer a queen but a solider. If your going to make a game make a game about her. She a powerful leader. Link is the lone warrior with a heart of gold. To just switch that out because degrades her and the whole game franchise. It make her replaceable.

 

[Cronenberg1]

No.

I wouldn't call myself a feminist (to me, it sounds like white supremacists just what equality), I do want equal representation in our media. I want to play as a gay guy, a non sexualized woman, a trans-person, a person who at the start isn't sure of who they are but during the game (which is totally unrelated to the protagonists goal) finds themselves. (like playing Mass Effect but every so often they have a conversation about who or what they are into).

I am just bored as fuck of certain things in gaming, such has playing as a 20-40 year old white male (usually with brown hair). I am bored of skimpy armor or clothing in general on women. It's why when I can, I play as women in games (saints row and elder scrolls), then dress them up in NORMAL clothes ... in saints row, I had a woman that mainly wore a black business suit with saints colored high heels and accessories, she was womanly but didn't look like a whore!

I can't see how any kind of diversity is bad, why are you all so intent on playing as the same person?

Tough. You're a feminist. (But it's OK. That's a good thing!)

Also, speaking of Saint's Row, I think it's worth it to keep in mind that Steve Jaros actually welcomes feminist critique.

Nope, I refuse that title ... despite what the old school definition is, there is a new definition of it and it's not for the equality for both sexes! It is the betterment of one over the other.

Women want equal pay to men but they don't want to pay for meals ... they want the saying "women and children first" to still apply but men have to ask women out.

Of course, not all women are like this or all feminists but if that is the public perception of feminism is, then no matter what the correct meaning is, feminism will be women over men.

It's not about the correct definition of the word, it's how people view the people who call themselves that.

Call me, some made up word like equalist or something but feminist is obviously comes from feminine AKA woman, so it's "for women" (not woman exclusive but "lets empower women"), I want nothing to do with that. I want people to be equal, not women ... I want trans people to be equal, gay people to be equal etc

Women and children first isn't standard protocol and hasn't been for quite a while. The guys asking girls out thing is actually criticized by many feminists as preventing women from having as much agency in starting relationships. Being a feminist doesn't require that you ignore other issues. Most people just use the label because women are far more oppressed as a gender in our current society. There is nothing preventing anyone from being both a humanist and a feminist. Sure there are some pretty crazy "feminists" on tumbler but you know what else is on tumbler? people who think they're turtles. The so called "tumbler feminism" doesn't represent feminism and has very little influence on anything.

 

[EternallyBored]

Snip

Actually, Women and children first was never a thing, period, it pretty much lived and died with the Titanic. The period before ships like the titanic in the early 1800's tended to not have many lifeboats at all, you had a couple dinghys and the general consensus at the time wasn't women and children, it was generally the captain and higher ups that got first dibs, even though setting adrift at sea in one of those little things was pretty much a guaranteed death sentence anyway before the advent of inventions like radio.

In the late 19th and early 20th century, lifeboats for the entire crew and passengers was pretty much always standard once room and size allowed passenger ships to do so, so evacuation policy generally tended to follow whoever got to the boats first, as it didn't make any sense to have people blocking halls and crowding lifeboats just to prioritize women and children first. The crew were the only ones really expected to linger so as to organize and aid the evacuation.

The women and children thing was pretty much just a story that came out of the Titanic disaster due to stories of so few lifeboats that people knew they were going to be left behind, which was mostly true given the demographics breakdown of survivors, but there's no indication that this was standard policy outside of this one event as going much farther back means there weren't really any lifeboats for anyone, if you sunk you were pretty much shit out of luck, man or woman, and in the age of titanic size passenger and cruise ships, sinkings were incredibly rare outside of warships, and tended to have enough lifeboats to accommodate everyone, man, woman, or child, so they prioritized getting people off the ship as fast as possible rather than trying to sort women and children out from the crowds.

 

[omegawyrm]

No it isn't, and that's a stupid question.

 

[Something Amyss]

As for backing down from things... women's rights, as it were, is just one of those things that aren't my pet projects. I have two, three technically, that are incredibly close to me (how people view mental health and treat them, the people of Gaza and the war, and child abuse, but that ties in with the PTSD). I would never back down from speaking up about them. And because of that, I have lost family members, friends refuse to speak to me, I have alienated people in my husbands family, and in general have made myself a very lonely person.

Yegads, Gaza. Another reason I get compared to the Nazis. Because saying "Palestinians are people, too" is the same as saying that all Jews should die. Or something. I'll never understand the extreme responses I get, but they actually kind of run parallel here.

In any case, and I'm not trying to be holier than thou, I tend to address inequity when I see it. On a gaming board, I'm most likely to be Social Justice Warrioring for women or LGBT issues, since they come up the most. In "real life," I've done political campaigning for various causes. These also include LGBT issues and feminist issues, but aren't limited to them. I am more active over some issues, and admittedly, some I just complain about because I don't have much recourse. Even then, I kind of hope people are listening.

I think I deal in women's issues the most because of sheer volume. Half the population (give or take, and varying by nation) is comprised of women, so odds are, you'll know someone impacted by these issues. They may or may not be the most severe, but...They're there.

I just realize how sad that sounded, but don't worry. I'm good at being lonely.

If it helps, I know how you feel, sort of.

I understand your point. I just wanted you to know that not everyone that is looking to get help for male domestic abuse victims is clouded by false equivalences. Sometimes it's just wanting to help those who actually need it.

Yeah, it's basically just an automatic response at this point. I get screamed at a lot on YouTube by people who are infuriated that I don't think straight white males are the most persecuted group ever. I get told I hate men, disparage men, etc., Because of dogma surrounding these concepts. And the absolute best part is that they often don't seem to be doing it to improve the social standing of men but as more of a "screw you" to women. "Men are raped, too" is often uttered in the same fashion Thunderf00t recently complained that he's been threatened, but you don't hear him complaining about it.

The Escapist's own Critical Miss did a comic on it [http://www.escapistmagazine.com/articles/view/comicsandcosplay/comics/critical-miss/9966-The-Counterpoint] way back. Oh, 2012. To think, a comic like that would only get 150 or so posts at one point.

You have to remember, I don't know EVERY feminist out there.

I understand, I'm just pointing out how broad it is. And that's one of the issues. People try and label feminists as though we all believe X or Y. For example, people complain about the term "patriarchy," and its use. You don't have to accept patriarchy, and most of the people complaining seem to think we believe it's a big manspiracy where the ill-man-ati are actively stroking their white cats in underground lairs, saying "how can we keep those miserable women down today?"

"Do you expect me to come up with a more realistic scene?"
"No, Mister Bond, I expect you to die!"

Feminists, essentially, agree one one point. Women are treated worse, overall, than men. I doubt we could even agree on the severity. Anything else? It's like trying to herd cats. I even afford for the notion that there may be feminists who actually believe in the Illu-man-ati out there. I think it's absurd. I don't think there's a systematic attempt to keep women down on a broad social level, and I wouldn't support the notion without some evidence. But I afford for them existing.

Anyway, I'm rambling because it's 2:30 in the morning and I'm only up because my spine won't play ball, so I'm loopy and in pain. Where was I?

When I say handling poverty and minimum wage and so on, see my example above about two different women having different ideologies. Until people can start having at least the same education and chances at life, then we can't expect any real change in how women are treated. The lawyer may be treated much better than that rural white girl with just the high school education. But the African American may have problems with wage gaps while the young girl may have trouble with sexual harassment.

I get what you're saying, I just can't wrap my head around it. Doesn't mean it's wrong, you're wrong, or you're bad. Just...Well, see the above ramble on my courses of action. I don't think I even could choose.

Perhaps it's a bit optimistic of me, or perhaps because I was a teacher for so long, but I have always felt that education is the first step to fixing any problem.

Well, it certainly helps. I mean, at least you're not completely off-base.

My family is very right leaning, my father being Catholic, and I haven't gotten any peace ever from being more liberal than they are. I still don't. I usually try to preface anything I say to my dad with... I know you think I'm a communist, but... It usually doesn't work, but at least I tried.

Most of my family was Fox News before there was a Fox News. Back when O'Riley was saying "fuck it, we'll do it live" and Hannity was doing...whatever it is Hannity did, I don't really care. I've given up. My parents are the liberal wing of the family, and they did civil rights protests back in the late sixties and early seventies. My father fought the draft in Vietnam, and stuck it out despite risk of deportation. And I can't imagine how any of us developed in this family of all places. But, weirdly enough, both my parents had the benefit of better education, which certainly doesn't hurt the argument that education is the cure.

I'd like to be someone I can be like, though I am just a white woman, my half brother is mixed, I'm sure he'd like to be able to play as black sometimes. But moreover, just from a writing perspective, I've always just thought it was lazy writing. Is it really that hard to think of a new character that isn't JOHN Q SMITH EVERYMAN! I mean, it's the Superman Complex. You can't keep giving him every super power because you've run out of ideas for interesting bad guys. That's your fault, not ours. Not that Superman really ever had interesting bad guys, Lex was about it... although it is early, I'm probably forgetting someone.

Gaming is still largely about power fantasy, and I'm not sure it'll ever not be largely about power fantasy. Part of that is keeping them vague enough to imprint on. Granted, I find the quality of writing in video games suspect, but I think this part is more marketing. But then, this is why I like the Saint's Row approach. Voliton let yo play as anyone. Hell, SR2 even had a "gender slider" so you could mix sexual traits. And since Saints Row was the biggest franchise THW published that wasn't a tie-in to someone else's franchise, I'd imagine it didn't hurt them any. Of course, Saints Row still has kind of weak writing. It's just that it demonstrates you can have power fantasy and still afford for an intesexed Latino with a giant afro who saves the world in a cowboy outfit and pumps.

As far as characters go, I keep hoping that we'll see more exploration in RPGs, but we don't. JRPGs play out like novels, and WRPGs tend to be rooted in the same power fantasy as other games. You're generally the wandering Messiah. I mean, sometimes it's fun to be space JAYSUS, but it gets boring.

Well I don't want to know your SSN, or your first pet name, or the street where you grew up on, or your mothers maiden name... unless you want to tell me them...

Uh uh. No way are you finding out my password is 12345!

Oh, crap.

Sometimes people tend to take my passionate, which I'm glad you understood that for what that was, as anger. I'm not a very angry person, I spent entirely too much of my life like that, and suffering from PTSD as I do, I still have inexplicable rages, so I try to focus those where they need to go, not on people that don't deserve it. And you certainly don't deserve it. We may not agree, but you are an honest and forthcoming person that I truly enjoy chatting with. Don't find that too often any longer, or at least I don't.

You should hear me rant about the things I love. I may not always pick up on it, but I do understand it.