I've got nothing to add. Lollipop Chainsaw is a pop culture parody, like, I don't know, every game Suda51's ever done.Mikeyfell said:
I love that Monty Python comparison. Suda really is kind of Japan's Monty Python.
is lollipop chainsaw bastardizing our industry?
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I love that Monty Python comparison. Suda really is kind of Japan's Monty Python.
The reason it got so much publicity is the fact that it is a suda 51 game and therefore it gets instant interest from fans of suda 51 games the same way that COD fans get excited about COD, Bethesda fans get excited about elder scrolls so they get instant exposure from their makers reputation. Or maybe because it is a colourful game so it stands out compared to all the brown when people see it even if you took the blonde cheerleader out of it.omega 616 said:
From this and your other posts it really seems to me like you're the one who's fixated on the "sexual" aspect of it. People defending the game have been defending just that-the game, whereas you seem to be drawn only to the apparent perviness of it.omega 616 said:
It could just be the Bayonetta thing all over again. Some people(myself included) see a solid action game. Other people see nothing but fap bait.
If you think the game is just about perving up the protagonist, then I'm afraid to say you don't understand it.omega 616 said:
And it's not a flimsy defense, it's not "oh you just don't understand, it's ART!", because it's not art, it's satirical. The way the game references zombies and highschool girls are homages to things like Dawn of the Dead (San ROMERO High School), Buffy the Vampire Slayer, as well as using zombies because of how fond the industry uses them.
You can't judge it as "perving" just because it has such a stylised main character, was Bayonetta "perving" because it was hyper sexualised? (Not that your opinion on such things even matters when you don't even like the genre).
What game are you referencing? It obviously doesn't have any publicity if you can't even be bothered to name or link it.
The game is getting publicity because it looks fun , it looks batshit crazy.
It'll sell because it appeals to people who like the genre , I admit that they're not buying it because it's satire, they're buying it because they like the look of it, whether that is in due part to the fact you have an overly stylised,cliche, trope ridden, representation of people's fetishes with schoolgirls remains to be seen, as nobody knows it's "selling like hotcakes".
Last bit is all just your opinion, which as someone who doesn't like other games in the genre, isn't really that relevant. I find that the juxtaposition of killing zombies with chainsaws and seeing them spew pink hearts and sparkles to be unique, in that I know of no other games that are the same.
And calling everyone who buys this game "nerds" is just stupid. This game is in the similar vein to Bulletstorm, a game which was, say it with me, satire.
I look forward to my copy arriving so I can play the hell out of it, because it'll be fun , not because I'm a perverted nerd.
Reminds me of that South Park where the kids wrote "The tale of Scrotie McBoogerBalls" and all of America dug deep and argued that it was about conservative values, or maybe a relationship with God, when it was just classless and funny "on purpose" garbage that's nice to have every once in a while because life shouldn't be so damned serious and over-analyzed all the time. LPC is that nice, silly diversion, with no point because things should be pointless sometimes, and I LOVED No More Heroes for the exact same reason.
Really, the gaming community is better off because we have Goichi Suda, not the opposite. Because Killer 7, No More Heroes, and LPC come around and inject weird, experimental energy into the industry right at times when people are saying that things feel samey and copypasta, and we ask why nobody has original ideas. Then the original ideas are not purchased. Yahtzee has a nice game with a pencil for those folks.
I believe it is a common mistake to put the weight of the entire industry on the shoulders of a single game. The problem with so many games is not an individual example of exploitation, its the systemics, universal use of certain tropes. One game that goes heavilly for shallow sex appeal is completely fine, and quite enjoyable. It's when every game needs to have impossibly proportioned sex kittens (Or a large percentage of games far outstripping the more reasonable of female characters) that you run into problems.
More to the point, with Lolipop Chainsaw, it is quite apparent that the sexuality is rather tongue in cheek: it's more self-aware parody then anything else. The lesson here is that we need to focus not on removing overly sexualized female characters, but on ADDING MORE reasonable, multidimensional, relatable and interesting female characters of all stripes. If we do that, we might be left with better female characters, and even the most enjoyable shallow sex pots who suddenly don't feel like they are a dime a dozen. While your at it, you can add in a few sexualized males to appeal to females. Ill get over it, and it's more fair to the women.
More to the point, with Lolipop Chainsaw, it is quite apparent that the sexuality is rather tongue in cheek: it's more self-aware parody then anything else. The lesson here is that we need to focus not on removing overly sexualized female characters, but on ADDING MORE reasonable, multidimensional, relatable and interesting female characters of all stripes. If we do that, we might be left with better female characters, and even the most enjoyable shallow sex pots who suddenly don't feel like they are a dime a dozen. While your at it, you can add in a few sexualized males to appeal to females. Ill get over it, and it's more fair to the women.
No, LPC is not bastardizing the industry. LPC just proves how some people will make as much noise as possible because of the character design choice because they are:
1) Trolls looking for attention
2) Moral high horse
3) Looking to get more attention to a website (certain reviewers)
4) Completely insecure
5) Believe they are intellectually superior (goes hand in hand with moral high horse)
6) All or any combination of the above
Before you criticize LPC for its shallow gameplay, vapid pandering, etc. take a look at the rest of the games available and see how retarded that argument is. I can say that ALL FPS games are blatant pandering to warmongers, TERA is a overly blatant pandering to pedophiles and pandering to 14 yo sexual fantasy (which those kids shouldn't even be playing and false), and that ALL games are repetitive and boring because the gameplay mechanics are shite (I wonder what you do in a FPS all day hmmm?).
To say LPC is bastardizing the industry is completely false and to the people who think this game is original or not, Oneechanbara has this game beat by quite a few years. If you don't know what Oneechanbara is, look it up.
1) Trolls looking for attention
2) Moral high horse
3) Looking to get more attention to a website (certain reviewers)
4) Completely insecure
5) Believe they are intellectually superior (goes hand in hand with moral high horse)
6) All or any combination of the above
Before you criticize LPC for its shallow gameplay, vapid pandering, etc. take a look at the rest of the games available and see how retarded that argument is. I can say that ALL FPS games are blatant pandering to warmongers, TERA is a overly blatant pandering to pedophiles and pandering to 14 yo sexual fantasy (which those kids shouldn't even be playing and false), and that ALL games are repetitive and boring because the gameplay mechanics are shite (I wonder what you do in a FPS all day hmmm?).
To say LPC is bastardizing the industry is completely false and to the people who think this game is original or not, Oneechanbara has this game beat by quite a few years. If you don't know what Oneechanbara is, look it up.
No, shadows of the damned sold around 24,000 copies on both consoles in a year... I suspect many more people have bought this game, although I am just guessing since the game hasn't been out a week yet.getoffmycloud said:
"The game received generally mixed to positive reviews upon release. Aggregating review websites GameRankings and Metacritic gave the PlayStation 3 version 72.33% and 67/100 and the Xbox 360 version 70.11% and 68/100. Famitsu gave the game scores of 9 out of 10 from four reviewers, adding up to a total score of 36 out of 40. IGN gave it a 5 out of 10, praising the look and feel of the game, but criticized its gameplay, calling it "Bland, slow, and unsatisfying."anthony87 said:
So it's not really the game play now, is it? Considering 4 different sites gave it on average ... average.
The thing is bayoneta, DMC, god of war, this is that the best combo is light, light, heavy. So the gameplay is never great, so it doesn't look great, it looks the same as the others but you can perv.
Remember the old saying "sex sells"...
Then I will humour you and let you educate me.JokerboyJordan said:
Lets just compare Buffy to it's obvious male counter part Angel ... basically the same fucking show, lead has a team (which is more or less identical) and they kill supernatural baddies (mostly vampires).
From wiki "Buffy's overall yearly ratings were higher than Angel's" ... so just by having a female lead they got on average more views.
Lets do the Suda 51, shadows of the damned sold 24,000 copies in a year, how many do you think this game will sell? I would say but it's been less than a week since release, so there are no numbers that I can find.
I don't like the overall genre so my opinion on sexualizing games is null and void? Bollocks. My opinion on a genre has nothing to do with how the genre looks. I am no good at fighting games, does that mean I can't have an opinion on them? No, it has nothing to do with it! I might not be able to give the best review of one but review =/=opinion.
Anyway, both games rely on the over sexulization of the main character to sell, would you have bought and played the game if it was a guy in bayonetta? Running around getting naked with every special attack? Lemme guess, you're going to claim you would but you actually wouldn't 'cos "eww naked dude!".
I have told you why they are buying it, the ploygons you control make up a typical "hot cheerleader" wearing 2 little pieces of fabric, the same people who watch anime and think the girls are cute are the ones buying this game + some others.
Were on a forum, everything on a forum is opinion! Killing zombies with a chainsaw isn't unique, dead rising did that! the only slightly unique part is the stuff popping out of them, which isn't exactly new either, stuff has been popping out of dead enemies for quite some time!
This game has fuck all to do with bulletstorm! Bulletstorm is an FPS WITH a unique feature and dick jokes. This game is a third person hack and slash game with nothing new and over sexulization of the main character.
Please, we are all nerds on this site. If you're on a site talking about games, your a nerd ... there is no insult there.
You can call yourself and see yourself how you like, I am just stating my opinion on it, remember forum is nothing but opinions.
I wont be posting in this thread any more so any quotes will be ignored, have any last words you want to though.
Why should I bother to write out a post and point out all the inherent flaws in your logic and the way you judge things looking only at elements of sexism, rather than other factors, if you're just going to get on your high horse and pull out the moral high ground card?omega 616 said:
My last words are that you are a pretentious, self assured individual that would not be convinced regardless of what I contribute. I honestly couldn't give two shits if you think the game's sexist, and I'm pretty sure that the developers don't either.
Either way, they're still getting my money.
You mean, the same way Strippers vs. Zombies and Cheerleaders from Hell hurt the movie industry?
Oh, wait...
Seriously, there are tons of things that hurt the gaming industry. Like giant publishers bleeding out developers, stupid costumers buying the same game again and again while at the same time complaining about getting always the same or the press with their bullshit numeric rating systems (and the derp people living by those numbers). And that's just a few.
But a game like Lollypop Chainsaw? Hell no.
Oh, wait...
Seriously, there are tons of things that hurt the gaming industry. Like giant publishers bleeding out developers, stupid costumers buying the same game again and again while at the same time complaining about getting always the same or the press with their bullshit numeric rating systems (and the derp people living by those numbers). And that's just a few.
But a game like Lollypop Chainsaw? Hell no.
No, It's called irony. The whole thing is meant to be ridiculous, silly, and over the top, and it maintains a tone that is conducive toward that aim. It's not like, say, the Hitman: Absolution trailer, where it's ridiculous, silly, and over the top, but still has the same serious, dour, gritty tone that the series has always had.
Tone, and how the subject matter is handled, are more important than the subject matter itself.
Tone, and how the subject matter is handled, are more important than the subject matter itself.
Having beaten the game today (which my wife wanted to get as much as me) I can say it has its cheesecake and tease moments. That achievement others have pointed out for moving the camera to look up the skirt is worth 5 points... and guess what. When you try to, she holds her skirt down so you can't. It still gives you the achievement but the game even mocks you for trying.
The character herself is shown to be smarter than her boyfriend, gets great grades in school, speaks multiple languages, and kicks ass so hard that her boyfriend can't believe it.
She isn't stupid, she's innocent. She's a virgin, but not afraid of sex. She's smart but lacks any sort of knowledge of the real world.
Having basically trained from from birth for this life. Her father and sister are similarly stilted (to varying degrees) because the idea of being a zombie hunter (or vampire/Sasquatch/Franken Berry hunter if you prefer) is so divorced from societal norms that she and her family are weird and eccentric.
Add to this an over-protective father (That her friends all call a DILF) and a house-wife mother who basically is supportive but bears a lot in common with Donna Reed.
Nick is her first BF because she's been afraid of to let her 'weirdo zombie hunting family' meet him and be rejected. Even when he's just a disembodied head kept alive by magic she is hesitant to tell Nick about her origins.
The game itself mocks 50s Americana and gender roles, making Nick a head that can't do anything without Juliette, and she uses a method of zombie killing popularized by Bruce Campbell (granted his characters name is Ashley in those movies.)
When her BF is even remotely useful to the story its because of her. He is entirely emasculated (literally, just being a head now) by her presence. Whenever her sex or beauty is even referenced its either by her boyfriend reminding her that she's attractive or students/zombie non sequitur.
The "We wear our vaginas on our sleeve" line, that was in a few trailers is actually a line about being extremely proud to be female, not some sort of "we're sluts" line.
Yes, her Sensei is a perv, and the game points out he's a perv. Yes, Juliette is oblivious to it. That's because she trusted him and as I stated earlier, she's a bit innocent and oblivious. She's not stupid, she's trusting; and coming from a close-knit family as she does, it makes sense that she's that trusting.
I would argue (as I have above) that Juliette is as much a subversion of the typical cheesecake "hot for no reason" as Bayonetta was, or the original Laura Croft was. Or like Samantha Carter of SG-1, Starbuck of the new Battlestar Galactica, Aeryn Sun from Farscape or Black Widow from Iron Man 2/Avengers.
Either way, of course your going to confirm your opinion that way. It's like a Republican watching Fox News and saying 'See, I'm right!"
The character herself is shown to be smarter than her boyfriend, gets great grades in school, speaks multiple languages, and kicks ass so hard that her boyfriend can't believe it.
She isn't stupid, she's innocent. She's a virgin, but not afraid of sex. She's smart but lacks any sort of knowledge of the real world.
Having basically trained from from birth for this life. Her father and sister are similarly stilted (to varying degrees) because the idea of being a zombie hunter (or vampire/Sasquatch/Franken Berry hunter if you prefer) is so divorced from societal norms that she and her family are weird and eccentric.
Add to this an over-protective father (That her friends all call a DILF) and a house-wife mother who basically is supportive but bears a lot in common with Donna Reed.
Nick is her first BF because she's been afraid of to let her 'weirdo zombie hunting family' meet him and be rejected. Even when he's just a disembodied head kept alive by magic she is hesitant to tell Nick about her origins.
The game itself mocks 50s Americana and gender roles, making Nick a head that can't do anything without Juliette, and she uses a method of zombie killing popularized by Bruce Campbell (granted his characters name is Ashley in those movies.)
When her BF is even remotely useful to the story its because of her. He is entirely emasculated (literally, just being a head now) by her presence. Whenever her sex or beauty is even referenced its either by her boyfriend reminding her that she's attractive or students/zombie non sequitur.
The "We wear our vaginas on our sleeve" line, that was in a few trailers is actually a line about being extremely proud to be female, not some sort of "we're sluts" line.
Yes, her Sensei is a perv, and the game points out he's a perv. Yes, Juliette is oblivious to it. That's because she trusted him and as I stated earlier, she's a bit innocent and oblivious. She's not stupid, she's trusting; and coming from a close-knit family as she does, it makes sense that she's that trusting.
I would argue (as I have above) that Juliette is as much a subversion of the typical cheesecake "hot for no reason" as Bayonetta was, or the original Laura Croft was. Or like Samantha Carter of SG-1, Starbuck of the new Battlestar Galactica, Aeryn Sun from Farscape or Black Widow from Iron Man 2/Avengers.
Um yeah, did you just say you watched a bunch of videos that confirmed your own opinion, that I assume you got from watching the trailers? Or was it found through some other method?bullet_sandw1ch said:
Either way, of course your going to confirm your opinion that way. It's like a Republican watching Fox News and saying 'See, I'm right!"
Umm, Maybe. I get what you are saying and it's a fair point when looked at in detail. The video game industry should not be judged from one game. There are several other games that show geniune effort to further the experience of playing video games. . Rocksmith comes to mind as a shining example of someone trying to make a video game into something more than mindless entertainment.StriderShinryu said:
But in a broad view your argument, and especially your examples, make a different point. Bieber in music, Bay in movies, and the Twilight books are all evidence of a popular entry into a medium that causes the medium in general to be viewed as worse than before.
The problem is that all of these entrys reflect the mindset of the people who consume them, and with the exception of their individual fans, nearly everyone else looks at this group of people and proclaims them ignorant/morons/tasteless or whatever other negative word applies. The problem is, the people on the outside looking in, are often correct. ( although I will stress, they are not always correct)
If we take Twilight as an example, it's a poorly written story is unoriginal, with the exception of basterdizing the entire concept of vampires and werewolves. Infintitly worse is the number of Twilight clones that are now popping up all over.
When the outside world sees ads for video games, they generally see an ad portraying violence. Lollipop Chainsaw adds the infantile sexuality to the established violence concept.
It brings the entire concept of video games down to a level that most people on the escapist are trying to avoid. It's not overly judgemental people who will frown at Lollipop Chainsaw, but just the general public, and they will frown because of the infantile view of sex, violence loving, and time wasting indivduals that we have proclaimed ourselves to be.
It's ironic how many gamers complain about stereotypes showing them as all of the negative things I just listed. Then casually dismiss a game that tells the entire world the stereotypes are all true, as just being "one game" and that the only people it will affect are the "haters".
The only way I can see to improve the situation, is to make Lollipop Chainsaw fail so hard in sales that the industry realizes that gamers aren't interested in this nonsense. Eventually, the industry will give up the idea of these types of games, and then maybe, only maybe, will we see the viscious cycle come to an end.
Oh, god, this is the new Duke Nukem Forever, isn't it.
No, it's not "bastardizing" our industry. That's fucking ignorant. Stop it.
No, it's not "bastardizing" our industry. That's fucking ignorant. Stop it.
No, it's just a mediocre style > substance game from a developer who makes mediocre style > substance games.
Right because all hack 'n slash games are just the same like how all shooters is just the same because you just hold down the trigger and spray bullets right?s69-5 said:
I have said already that the theme is the same, the game itself is not a carbon copy. The formula is generic hack 'n slash used by all hack 'n slash games ever.
Onechanbara has character switching and multiple weapons. The main weapons are katanas, that character (Saya I believe) just so happens to have a chainsaw weapon. Don't judge a book by its cover, if you want to criticize how similar they are play them. The game mechanics are completely different other than combos.
Differences between the two:
1) LPC does not have blood meter that fills up when you kill zombies
2) LPC weapons do not get stuck in zombies after you hit them if you don't clean off your weapon
3) There are more than one protagonist that you can play (The video is Onechanbara Z, not the first game)
4) You can switch characters when attacking to create tag combos (more similar to Warriors Orochi than anything)
5) The aesthetic as a whole is completely different, you may not think it matters but it does if you are saying LPc is is the same game
6) In the game, timing matters ala Bayonetta sytle in attack system, LPC is button combos like Ninja Gaiden 3 (not 2 or 1)
6a) what I mean by above is that combos link smoothly and can be continued if you know how to chain them, in LPC when you finish a button combo, that is it. (as far as I've tried anyways)
Aesthetically:
1) LPC has brighter colors
2) MUCH more light-hearted
3) LPC is more of a parody while Onechanbara is more sexploitation than LPC
4) Bosses are clearly different
5) Setting and story (obviously)
6) No QTE (I don't remember any)
7) Everything else besides zombies (default costume of Juliet is much more tame than Onechanbara. I mean come on, standard cheerleader outfit vs bikini.)
like I said, the games have similar themes and if that is all you're judging the game by fine by me, but don't say they are the same game because they are not. Do not ignore that the story and characters are different because they have zombies etc because if you are saying they are the same game, than story and characters do matter. LPC is clearly much MUCH more light-hearted.
It's Suda51 so the odds of this being specifically designed to mock other games are something like 1000%.
Whether that excuses it or not is certainly up for debate though
Whether that excuses it or not is certainly up for debate though
Yes, one video game marks everyone who is ever involved with video games as a...whatever you're even complaining about.
Just like when old media initially turned against rock music, anyone who was witnessed listening to any radio on any station at all by any person in public was considered some kinda devil worshiper.
Oh, and after the very first bad movie was released, anyone who went to see any movie at any movie theater was asked why they were wasting their time, because every movie was always going to be terrible from then on forever.
What surprises me is that there are actually people who can draw that kind of conclusion. That's such an alien train of thought to me that you might as well be speaking an entirely different language. Hell, make it a language with no attachment to Latin for added confusion.
Maybe this is some sort of kneejerk reaction panic, and you're not thinking entirely clearly or something. In that case, take a step back, count to ten, and explain your point again.
Just like when old media initially turned against rock music, anyone who was witnessed listening to any radio on any station at all by any person in public was considered some kinda devil worshiper.
Oh, and after the very first bad movie was released, anyone who went to see any movie at any movie theater was asked why they were wasting their time, because every movie was always going to be terrible from then on forever.
What surprises me is that there are actually people who can draw that kind of conclusion. That's such an alien train of thought to me that you might as well be speaking an entirely different language. Hell, make it a language with no attachment to Latin for added confusion.
Maybe this is some sort of kneejerk reaction panic, and you're not thinking entirely clearly or something. In that case, take a step back, count to ten, and explain your point again.
