Is this negative "nice guy" stereotype actually a thing?

[Tarfeather]

So I've read this article [http://www.escapistmagazine.com/articles/view/columns/criticalintel/11083-The-History-And-Abuse-of-The-Fedora], which for the most part seemed interesting and believable enough.

However, one particular statement confused me, and I suppose it is something that somewhat relates to previous discussions on this subforum.

Women have largely pegged this uniform as belonging to the so-called "nice guys" that think being decent to a woman is a ticket into her bed. I'm sorry about that, but it's true. (For what it's worth, I asked two women outside the gaming community what kind of men they associate black fedoras with. Answer: Creep, avoid immediately.)

Wait, really? There is such a stereotype? Honestly, I know of many stereotypes relating to nerd culture, and I know that "normal" women tend to be less than impressed with a lot of these stereotypes. But the quoted statement, if the rest of the article hadn't been so believable, I'd just call bullshit on that. As it is, maybe there's something I don't understand, maybe somebody can shed light on this for me.

Let's start here: Somebody is a thoughtful and considerate person("nice guy"). Their attempts to sway women go along the same lines - After all, in order to win somebody's affection, isn't the most sensible approach to show them that you care about them and respect them?

Now here's the first contradiction. Such a person would not believe their actions to be a "ticket" to anybody's bed. After all, if they truly are considerate, they know full well that the other person has their own feelings and preferences. They would consider their own "being nice" simply as a way to show their own interest for that person, and then leave it to the other person to decide how much of that interest they wish to return.

Keeping that in mind, there seem to be only two possibilities:

1) Women in general dislike considerate people for some reason. But why? Even if the whole "women like jerks" stereotype applies, that stereotype is aimed at being partners. "creep, avoid" means that even acquainting yourself with such a person would be out of the question, which seems crazy to me.

2) We're not actually talking about considerate people at all, when we say "nice guys". Only, then what are we talking about? Jerks who, on the surface, display some sort of concern for the person they're trying to win over, while really being completely egotistical? Congratulations, that's like half the men on this planet, and from what I've seen during school, girls have no problem with such guys at all(as long as they're good looking, mind). Or does this really not have anything at all to do with being "nice" or not being "nice"?

Honestly, this whole thing confuses me.

 

[Zhukov]

The Nice Guy stereotype refers to guys who are under the impression that being generally polite and civil towards women is some kind of huge point in their favour rather than merely a baseline standard for being a generally okay person.

Yes, they exist. They can be found in the various echo chambers of the internet asking one another why, in spite of their undeniable and nondescript niceness, they are still getting less sex than guys with looks, charisma, self-confident, huge penises, socially outgoing natures, conversational skills, interesting vocations, charming senses of humour and/or finely honed cunnilingus techniques.

That said, I suspect they're not quite as common as the internet would have you believe. Then again, I haven't exactly been keeping a tally.

 

[Phasmal]

Any guy who describes himself as `a nice guy` will usually send up warning signs to me.

Truly nice people don't need to go around telling people they're nice, and can usually find better positive attributes about themselves than the `nice` label. Nice is pretty basic.

I've had encounters with `nice guys` and you get to see how `nice` they are the second you say no to them.
So you're pretty close with number two, I guess.
But it's not `men in general` and `women in general`. It's just people in general. People who need to describe themselves as nice and fall over themselves trying to do the blandest `nice things` for you for brownie points are just fucking creepy in general.

And of course women like good looking men - are they supposed to chase guys they aren't attracted to?

 

[tippy2k2]

Any guy who describes himself as `a nice guy` will usually send up warning signs to me.

Truly nice people don't need to go around telling people they're nice, and can usually find better positive attributes about themselves than the `nice` label. Nice is pretty basic.

Now I'm a guy so I never had a "nice guy" come onto me but this is kind of a brilliant observation. If you have to tell people that you're something, you are almost certainly not that. I had more to say on that but you encompassed that idea completely in a few sentences here so I'll move onto the truly "nice guys" rather than the ones using the "nice guy" card.

OT: You're basically describing everyone's favorite topic "The Friend Zone", which technically exists but not in the "Oh whoa is me, the girl of my dreams doesn't realize how much I love her" and more "I keep doing nice things for this girl, why doesn't she want to bounce on my pogo-stick like the movies say she should!?!! What a tease!".

For the most part, I've noticed people who complain about that zone are some of the more pathetic people I've met. They either:

A. Truly believe that being nice to someone is the only criteria needed to get the lady to wet their whistle. When it's demonstrated that it takes a little more than being nice, they have a hissy fit.

B. They're allowing themselves to be walked on by someone who's making them dance like a puppet.

B is a bit more forgivable since they might not realize the lady is manipulating the hell out of him (even if it's obvious to everyone else around him) but it's still at least a little pathetic...

(Also note, ladies can complain about the Friend-Zone)

 

[Rolaoi]

Speaking as someone who used to think of himself as a "nice guy," the stereotype has basis in reality and is reasonable.

I've had encounters with `nice guys` and you get to see how `nice` they are the second you say no to them.

This has a lot to do with it.

The way it's used, it's nothing but weaponized guilt. It's a flacid dagger used by mewling little boys to try and guilt a woman into their arms because they're entitled little shits who think so highly of themselves that the very idea that they would treat another human being with kindness is some blessing from God, their Ego. It's the pitiful last bastion of selfish, needy manchildren with nothing to offer but angry, frustrated fantasies.

"Nice guys" are the absolute worse. They're delusional, egotistical sycophants with one hand up a weeping girl's skirt while the other brushes her hair telling her it will be alright; all the other guys are just jerks and she only needs him.

 

[Vegosiux]

Now I'm a guy so I never had a "nice guy" come onto me but this is kind of a brilliant observation. If you have to tell people that you're something, you are almost certainly not that.

Any guy who describes himself as `a nice guy` will usually send up warning signs to me.

Truly nice people don't need to go around telling people they're nice, and can usually find better positive attributes about themselves than the `nice` label. Nice is pretty basic.

For a moment I was feeling rather mischievous, but I will only note that this particular argument applies to a certain other concept that is sometimes discussed around here just as well, and I'm not so sure you'd be liking it in that particular case.

Now, there is some merit for the argument that "If you must go out of your way to say you're X, you likely aren't" but people tend to be real selective with it.

And of course women like good looking men - are they supposed to chase guys they aren't attracted to?

Nah, as long as whether or not a guy is "creepy" is detached from how attractive he is, it's all fair.

"Nice guys" are the absolute worse. They're delusional, egotistical sycophants with one hand up a weeping girl's skirt while the other brushes her hair telling her it will be alright; all the other guys are just jerks and she only needs him.

I'd actually say "NiceGuys™" are one logical extreme of treatment of women, the other being "The Caveman™" (club her over the head and drag her to the cave).

Problem here is that...well, I don't actually see an effective way to deal with this issue, save for completely changing our pop culture, which I would be in favor of, I just don't see it happening anytime soon >.>

 

[eatenbyagrue]

I read an article on Cracked.com a few years back that talks about why the whole "nice guy" thing doesn't work. The long and short of it is that "nice" is something you are expected to be: it's not particularly difficult, or requires too much effort. Especially when courting a girl, who has hundreds of guys being nice to her every day, except some of them have something extra to offer: one guy is nice, but he also has a PhD and teaches high-level math at the university, or this other guy is nice, but can bench press his own weight and would look nice with his arm draped around her. Basically, saying "I'm a nice guy" is the baseline. It's the bare minimum of what's expected if you want to exist in a civilized world.

 

[Phasmal]

For a moment I was feeling rather mischievous, but I will only note that this particular argument applies to a certain other concept that is sometimes discussed around here just as well, and I'm not so sure you'd be liking it in that particular case.

Now, there is some merit for the argument that "If you must go out of your way to say you're X, you likely aren't" but people tend to be real selective with it.

Dude if you wanna make a point, make a point.

Unless your point is `that isn't accurate 100% of the time`- which is true for most things.

And of course women like good looking men - are they supposed to chase guys they aren't attracted to?

Nah, as long as whether or not a guy is "creepy" is detached from how attractive he is, it's all fair.

Sometimes it will be, sometimes it wont.
Life isn't fair.
Some people might accept certain behaviour from some that they would not from others.
Most people, however, if they're gonna find something creepy, will find it creepy no matter how the creep looks.
EDIT: Also, what? What? If we're talking about someone putting `the moves` on, the success to fail creep factor will depend on how they do it and how the person they're doing it TO feels about them. How is that supposed to be detached from attractiveness?

 

[nariette]

"Nice" people do not have to tell someone that they are "nice". People will realize something like this when they talk to a person, and even if they tell said person "gosh, you're so nice!", an actually nice person won't go around telling people he's nice.

I've noticed that often women like a "bad boy" who becomes the sweetest person when they are around, while men like the opposite. I know guys who are huge assholes to everyone but when their girlfriend hops along they become this really soft person. I can see why this would seem like women only like assholes, while often it's the other way around. They like the "assholes" who treat them well, because it makes them feel like they really mean something to that person. This doesn't apply to all women or men, it's just something that I often see.

It's not like these men really are "nice to you" and expect you to have sex with them. It's more like that they will ask you out or make clear that they want to be more than friends with the thought "I'm sure she won't say no, I mean, I'm a very nice person and I treat her well right?".

There is nothing wrong with the fedora, there is something wrong with the group that wears it. If I see someone wearing a fedora with khaki shorts, I certainly won't think "Oh, he must be such a nice person.". I will think "God, he must think he is such a "nice" person". If this community was really proud of wearing leather jackets, we would all be hating leather jackets now.

 

[JoJo]

I have my doubts whether the 'nice guy' phenomena is as common as some people on the Internet make out, maybe it's more of an American thing but I've honestly never met someone in real life who fits the 'nice guy' stereotype as commonly described or any sort of person who wears fedoras as a habit, 'nice' or not. I can't help feeling that while there are some people around who originally inspired the stereotype, it's been blown out of proportion by online commentators.

 

[Thaluikhain]

2) We're not actually talking about considerate people at all, when we say "nice guys". Only, then what are we talking about? Jerks who, on the surface, display some sort of concern for the person they're trying to win over, while really being completely egotistical? Congratulations, that's like half the men on this planet, and from what I've seen during school, girls have no problem with such guys at all(as long as they're good looking, mind). Or does this really not have anything at all to do with being "nice" or not being "nice"?

It's not so much them being nice to win people over, it's the idea that they are entitled to beautiful women because they consider themselves to be nice, which means not evil.

You know in endless movies where the hero is a total loser with no redeeming qualities, but because he's not actually a Nazi or whatever, we are supposed to think he's a great guy, and the scantily clad love interest character falls in love with him in the end? Some people have watched too many of those movies.

 

[Movitz]

You know in endless movies where the hero is a total loser with no redeeming qualities, but because he's not actually a Nazi or whatever, we are supposed to think he's a great guy, and the scantily clad love interest character falls in love with him in the end? Some people have watched too many of those movies.

Is there really a movie were the guy starts out as a loser, stays a loser and then wins ze girl? In most stereotypical "from zero to hero"-movies, the loser actually does something and accompliches some grand labour, which even in real life would open many ladies eyes to someone who was invisible to them before.

 

[Thaluikhain]

Is there really a movie were the guy starts out as a loser, stays a loser and then wins ze girl? In most stereotypical "from zero to hero"-movies, the loser actually does something and accompliches some grand labour, which even in real life would open many ladies eyes to someone who was invisible to them before.

Depends what you mean...if he does it by some random magic thing or superpowers that suddenly show up, I think I meant tend to discount that.

Though, when I said "hero", perhaps "protagonist" or "main character" would have been better,

 

[The Rogue Wolf]

Keeping that in mind, there seem to be only two possibilities:

1) Women in general dislike considerate people for some reason. But why? Even if the whole "women like jerks" stereotype applies, that stereotype is aimed at being partners. "creep, avoid" means that even acquainting yourself with such a person would be out of the question, which seems crazy to me.

2) We're not actually talking about considerate people at all, when we say "nice guys". Only, then what are we talking about? Jerks who, on the surface, display some sort of concern for the person they're trying to win over, while really being completely egotistical? Congratulations, that's like half the men on this planet, and from what I've seen during school, girls have no problem with such guys at all(as long as they're good looking, mind). Or does this really not have anything at all to do with being "nice" or not being "nice"?

Neither. From my viewpoint, what's being talked about is how some men expect that showing a woman basic decency should be rewarded with a free pass into her panties- sort of like expecting a trophy for not randomly punching people in the face as you walk down the street. It's one thing to be a good person to others, but entirely another to believe you're owed something for your "effort". It's a misogynistic view that states that women are inherently unworthy of being treated decently and should "put out" from sheer gratitude if a man deigns to do so.

As for the fedora thing, that's plain ol' stereotyping. "Only X would wear Y, so anyone who wears Y is obviously X."

 

[NewClassic_v1legacy]

1) Women in general dislike considerate people for some reason. But why? Even if the whole "women like jerks" stereotype applies, that stereotype is aimed at being partners. "creep, avoid" means that even acquainting yourself with such a person would be out of the question, which seems crazy to me.

It's tough to address this without generalizing a little to some degree, but I would think this is one of those situations where it's more a personal behavior rather than a social one. For example, I tend to be more cautious around drivers of larger SUVs than larger sedans because, in my experience, drivers of larger vehicles tend to be a lesser awareness-to-size ratio than those in sedans. That isn't to say every driver of an SUV is unaware, but the increased size and mass of their vehicles tends to necessitate more caution that is rarely reflected in driver behavior or aptitude.

The same principle applies here. This individual has sufficient experience with self-labeled "Nice Guys" to assume that their intentions are disingenuous. The thought behind it is the "Nice Guys" who feel because they are nice, they are entitled to whatever behaviors or actions from a person as one they personally want.

This isn't generally an issue, unless the other person does not ever want to behave in that way, in which case it becomes the "Nice Guy" thinking they deserve something the other doesn't want to give. That the other isn't entitled to say "no" because of the beliefs of the "Nice Guy."

2) We're not actually talking about considerate people at all, when we say "nice guys". Only, then what are we talking about? Jerks who, on the surface, display some sort of concern for the person they're trying to win over, while really being completely egotistical? Congratulations, that's like half the men on this planet, and from what I've seen during school, girls have no problem with such guys at all(as long as they're good looking, mind). Or does this really not have anything at all to do with being "nice" or not being "nice"?

Here's where the issue lies. To use this example, the complete egotists (we'll call them "Jerks" for easy labeling purposes) are seemingly more honest and upfront about what they want. They're confident, forward, and outspoken about their intentions. So, they ask these girls out, the girls decide they like that confidence, so they say yes. By comparison, "Nice Guys" are much more callous. They obscure their desires, believe that kindness and good behavior are a currency of sorts, to input into the cosmic vending machine of life, and they'll get a girl out of it. However, that does objectify the girl in this scenario, turning her into an object to be purchased with kindness and civility rather than being afforded that by default.

Bring that to an extreme conclusion, and the intentions of the "Nice Guy" doesn't seem nearly so forward. Assuming the girl in this scenario stops finding the company of that person enjoyable. However, that doesn't matter to the Nice Guy, and he no longer feels bound to "pay" the girl with good behavior and kindness, which is mildly abusive at best. Even if the "Nice Guys" themselves have no intention to be cruel or abusive, the subconscious "If I treat her well --> She'll reward me with sex, love, etc." then the inverse will also be to some degree true. "If she doesn't reward me with sex, love, etc. --> then she doesn't deserve to be treated well."

In short, when a girl is asked out by a jerk, she's generally able to make better informed decisions than someone who hides their behaviors and desires out of a desire to appear to be good and nice, rather than are by default.

I have my doubts whether the 'nice guy' phenomena is as common as some people on the Internet make out, maybe it's more of an American thing but I've honestly never met someone in real life who fits the 'nice guy' stereotype as commonly described or any sort of person who wears fedoras as a habit, 'nice' or not. I can't help feeling that while there are some people around who originally inspired the stereotype, it's been blown out of proportion by online commentators.

Speaking as an American, I can't comment on whether or not its terribly common globally, but I was one of those guys once. Even looking back, I can tell I was an asshole. At the time, I thought I was totally in the right to have that worldview, and everyone else was just "one of those jerks." I've seen some of them around personally, though significantly more online than in person. (Likely due to introversion being a fairly common trait, which is less outwardly visible online.) But yeah, it's still a thing.

 

[EeveeElectro]

-snip-

This, exactly this.

I knew you'd come in here first and say something I agree with, darn it!

OT: I've come to find when people say they are something, they're not. If you ARE nice, there is no need to tell people because they will find that out for themselves. On the other hand, people saying they AREN'T something usually are (e.g, "I'm not racist but..." "I'm not being a ***** but...") so it's all very odd.

The title reminded me of some messages I got a while ago from a guy who kept posting those typically horrible 'I'm a nice guy but girls like dickheads' comments.

Spoiler: The messages

No, I shouldn't have said 'maybe' to him but up until that point I didn't want to lose him as a friend and felt too bad turning him down

Telling me "I'm not like other guys" is a tiresome and false statement I've heard time and time before. Not only are you insulting your own gender though but insulting me by assuming I'm too stupid to know you're a decent guy and have to take your word for it.

When he sent me those messages I actually was single and could have gone out with him if I wanted (he wasn't bad looking) but the attitude he had shown me before with the "woe is me, girls are bitches" mentality put me RIGHT off. If I've seen any sort of post like that from a guy, the chance of is dating is pretty much impossible.

One thing that got me worked up was one of my friends who used to be like that until I had a serious talk with him. He'd always say shit like "Girls only like guys that put them in A&E!" which made him sound like a complete tool when he's actually a very nice, sweet and funny guy and I wish he could find someone. After I told him to knock that attitude on the head, he managed to be a bit more successful with women.

Nice is just one aspect of a personality. If you're nice but also dull, moody, an angry drunk, egotistical or have other horrible traits (or even none) then that won't cut it for most women.
Seldom women will pursue someone they aren't at least attracted to either, that's just human nature and it's something men are guilty of when finding a partner too.

Thankfully none of this is all too common as people like to make out but it is a thing and it's annoying.

 

[generals3]

So I've read this article [http://www.escapistmagazine.com/articles/view/columns/criticalintel/11083-The-History-And-Abuse-of-The-Fedora], which for the most part seemed interesting and believable enough.

However, one particular statement confused me, and I suppose it is something that somewhat relates to previous discussions on this subforum.

Women have largely pegged this uniform as belonging to the so-called "nice guys" that think being decent to a woman is a ticket into her bed. I'm sorry about that, but it's true. (For what it's worth, I asked two women outside the gaming community what kind of men they associate black fedoras with. Answer: Creep, avoid immediately.)

Wait, really? There is such a stereotype? Honestly, I know of many stereotypes relating to nerd culture, and I know that "normal" women tend to be less than impressed with a lot of these stereotypes. But the quoted statement, if the rest of the article hadn't been so believable, I'd just call bullshit on that. As it is, maybe there's something I don't understand, maybe somebody can shed light on this for me.

Let's start here: Somebody is a thoughtful and considerate person("nice guy"). Their attempts to sway women go along the same lines - After all, in order to win somebody's affection, isn't the most sensible approach to show them that you care about them and respect them?

Now here's the first contradiction. Such a person would not believe their actions to be a "ticket" to anybody's bed. After all, if they truly are considerate, they know full well that the other person has their own feelings and preferences. They would consider their own "being nice" simply as a way to show their own interest for that person, and then leave it to the other person to decide how much of that interest they wish to return.

Keeping that in mind, there seem to be only two possibilities:

1) Women in general dislike considerate people for some reason. But why? Even if the whole "women like jerks" stereotype applies, that stereotype is aimed at being partners. "creep, avoid" means that even acquainting yourself with such a person would be out of the question, which seems crazy to me.

2) We're not actually talking about considerate people at all, when we say "nice guys". Only, then what are we talking about? Jerks who, on the surface, display some sort of concern for the person they're trying to win over, while really being completely egotistical? Congratulations, that's like half the men on this planet, and from what I've seen during school, girls have no problem with such guys at all(as long as they're good looking, mind). Or does this really not have anything at all to do with being "nice" or not being "nice"?

Honestly, this whole thing confuses me.

Maybe it depends on the country but i've yet to hear about said stereotype outside of the internet. (And even than it seems to be restricted to a certain part of the internet)

And what is ultimately quite interesting is that you cannot know whether someone is a nice guy or a "nice guy" until you tell them to bugger off and see their reaction.

 

[Rariow]

I've always seen the "nice guy" thing as a man who is nice specifically to get in a woman's pants. Actual nice men aren't qualified under "nice guy", even if they're guys who are nice. That said, people who think of themselves as genuinely nice and are unlucky in that kind of relationship will usually use it to justify their failures: I can't begin to count how many times my friends have complained that "I'm just too nice, I got friendzoned".

It's all the age-old perception that being pleasant is a sign of submission, and being an ass is a sign of dominance. It's true, some people are more attracted to unpleasant people for that reason, but it's far less widespread than most people tend to think. My demonstration of this goes as follows: Think of all the couples you've known. In how many of the cases is either side of the relationship an ass to the other half? Those cases are far more rare than pop culture tells us to believe, and when they do pop up they tend to be short-lived and rather miserable.

 

[Bara_no_Hime]

The Nice Guy stereotype refers to guys who are under the impression that being generally polite and civil towards women is some kind of huge point in their favour rather than merely a baseline standard for being a generally okay person.

This.

Any guy who describes himself as `a nice guy` will usually send up warning signs to me.

Truly nice people don't need to go around telling people they're nice, and can usually find better positive attributes about themselves than the `nice` label. Nice is pretty basic.

And this.

Also, Phasmal - I like the new avatar. ^^

OT: OP, the issue isn't people who are nice - it is people who are "nice" with an agenda and work hard to make sure you know it.

The "Faux-Nice Guy" tends to have a certain air about them - like they're slightly nervous and trying too hard. It sends off "fake" signals - which is why we get creeped out by it.

I knew you'd come in here first and say something I agree with, darn it!

Don't worry, Phasmal ninjaed me too.