Is this negative "nice guy" stereotype actually a thing?
- Thread starter Tarfeather
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Gahhh clusters of neurons commit ritual suicide whenever this topic runs the circuit. Let me put it succinctly:
DON'T BE NICE. Any ************ can be NICE when they want something. Try to be GENUINE - Try to be DECENT. Act kindly to people who deserve it, but don't think kindness is currency.
/out
DON'T BE NICE. Any ************ can be NICE when they want something. Try to be GENUINE - Try to be DECENT. Act kindly to people who deserve it, but don't think kindness is currency.
/out
There is such a huge mismatch in what "nice guys" want and what they are perceived to want. I have no idea where it came from but "nice guys" are always branded as "only nice 'cos they want to fuck the girl they are being nice to" ... which isn't it at all!
Actual "nice guys" want a relationship with the girl, they want the whole movie-esque thing, from cuddling on the sofa to watching the sun set on a board walk.
The other guys are the love 'em and leave them type, which is apparently what women love. While these guys make it plan as fucking day that all they will do is fuck the girl and leave, they are free from abuse (other than being called dogs but "doesn't matter, had sex").
Kind of backwards, isn't it? "I want a relationship" sends off warning signs but "it's clear that I just want to screw you" gets you sex.
The ideal for a "nice guy" would be the girl asks the boy out 'cos he is too shy to do it and he is dropping hints like crazy by listening to her, being nice etc. The cool jock just has to shoot her a look and her panties hit the ground like a rock! ... you know 'cos he is so dreamy and he is the star of the football team and all the other girls would be so jealous!
It all comes down to confidence, apparently women eat that shit up, the "nice guys" have none and the jocks do.
Actual "nice guys" want a relationship with the girl, they want the whole movie-esque thing, from cuddling on the sofa to watching the sun set on a board walk.
The other guys are the love 'em and leave them type, which is apparently what women love. While these guys make it plan as fucking day that all they will do is fuck the girl and leave, they are free from abuse (other than being called dogs but "doesn't matter, had sex").
Kind of backwards, isn't it? "I want a relationship" sends off warning signs but "it's clear that I just want to screw you" gets you sex.
The ideal for a "nice guy" would be the girl asks the boy out 'cos he is too shy to do it and he is dropping hints like crazy by listening to her, being nice etc. The cool jock just has to shoot her a look and her panties hit the ground like a rock! ... you know 'cos he is so dreamy and he is the star of the football team and all the other girls would be so jealous!
It all comes down to confidence, apparently women eat that shit up, the "nice guys" have none and the jocks do.
Ehhh never met anyone that fits the "nice guy" stereotype in person
That said people like that DO exist but I don't think they are as widespread as some people believe,
one thing that really drives me crazy is a situation where *gasp* a guy actually genuinely cares about a girl and wants to get into a serious long term relationship with her and she blows him off as "just another creep"
There's a difference, contrary to what some people seem to believe, between the stereotypical predatory nice guy who is just a creepy asshole, and "nice guys" who actually are kind and gentle by nature and are looking for a serious long term relationship not necessarily involving sex or physical affection, but find themselves being thrown in the same boat as all the pervs and creeps
That said people like that DO exist but I don't think they are as widespread as some people believe,
one thing that really drives me crazy is a situation where *gasp* a guy actually genuinely cares about a girl and wants to get into a serious long term relationship with her and she blows him off as "just another creep"
There's a difference, contrary to what some people seem to believe, between the stereotypical predatory nice guy who is just a creepy asshole, and "nice guys" who actually are kind and gentle by nature and are looking for a serious long term relationship not necessarily involving sex or physical affection, but find themselves being thrown in the same boat as all the pervs and creeps
Put it this way: If you tell me that you're "nice", and then proceed to do obviously "nice things" for me and then look to me for approval or sex "because I'm nice", you're an alien from space who doesn't understand human interaction.
Real relationships are not based on simple cause-and-effect like a gumball machine. Real relationships are messy, confusing amalgamations of good and bad experiences with a person flavored with dashes of attraction (sometimes) and loyalty (or, in the case of enemies, contrariness). Act like a human and you'll draw people who like you. Do something weird, like constantly draw attention to your traits, and you'll drive people away.
And yes, there are people who constantly draw attention to their "nice guy schtick". They're creepy. If you're going to be nice, be nice and let other people notice.
Real relationships are not based on simple cause-and-effect like a gumball machine. Real relationships are messy, confusing amalgamations of good and bad experiences with a person flavored with dashes of attraction (sometimes) and loyalty (or, in the case of enemies, contrariness). Act like a human and you'll draw people who like you. Do something weird, like constantly draw attention to your traits, and you'll drive people away.
And yes, there are people who constantly draw attention to their "nice guy schtick". They're creepy. If you're going to be nice, be nice and let other people notice.
People want to ***** about everything, but it's just people dealing with really heavy complex emotions and unfortunately were not all Vulcan-Ice Man like creatures.
But both genders are painfully ugly like this really.
I'd advise anyone that would self-label themselves "Nice" or "Good Person" that they need to do some deep introspection on themselves.
But both genders are painfully ugly like this really.
I'd advise anyone that would self-label themselves "Nice" or "Good Person" that they need to do some deep introspection on themselves.
Just going to point out I found your observation very mindblowing. It's hardly ever perfect isn't it? It's always chaotic and messy.lacktheknack said:
Very wise.
Nice guy is a label used as an analogy to people some might consider safe, boring, or at worst consistent and therefore predictable. A nice guy will excuse himself politely when cutting in front of someone. These kinds of people are passively ignored, especially by women with moderate to high availability (or value if you prefer), such as never married or no children. Thing is a lot of is is walking on eggshells; double standards exist in western culture that favors the bully, the cad, the "bad boy", but this also plays on stereotypes that are often more true than untrue. So one must apparently never speak freely regarding the issue lest one be labeled a chauvinist misogynistic pig.
I see that sentiment a lot in threads like these, or more commonly in "nice guys finish last" threads all over the internet. The thing about this though is that it has become the ubiquitous go to comment that flips the simplifications back on the poster, making assumptions or implications at him, which are often just as unfair. In many cases nice guys have been marginalized, thanks to feminism. If we explore deeper we see a plethora of information to support the idea that women have many social/legal/economic advantages men do not. How this translates into the discussion here is simply that if one examines the parts rather than the whole one can see very clearly that western society is highly gynocentric; he is expected to ask her out and withstand repeated rejections while she is only expected to be asked out and decide, or he is expected to be struck in the face when she's upset and it's not okay but not really wrong whereas if she is struck in the face by him it is criminal.
I'm giving only the most rudimentary examples to illustrate my point.
In America it has become very common for women to trade up (read: hypergamy) as well as starter marriages, which are also a common trend. The other problem I see right off with feminism is that it has created a landscape of single mothers that have wasted their "first times" and "fertile years" on players and bad-boys, leaving the good or "nice guys" to pick up the forlorn pieces and be grateful for the "privilege".
Speaking mostly for myself here:
This is one of those issues where people almost always have a side they're already on and no amount of debating will change that, but when the nice guy discussion rears it's head the straw man deference to "it's not them it's you" has never sat right with me. I'm a nice guy, people have told me this a lot, and many who do so mistake this for being timid or weak, that my courteous and usually respectful demeanor is characteristic of a flaw in my ability to "be a man". I've actually said no to women more than women have said no to me, but that's because of things, like feminism, having shaped them into people well below my personal standards, such as the unwed single mother or the woman divorced before she's 25. "Nice guys" and "good guys" are often interchangeable, and while a bad boy can be a nice guy too, it's usually not the case, but rather a a lot of projecting and denial of the obvious, which is why they wind up with kids and baby-daddy issues, and why I consider such people too harmful to get involved with too personally. It really is not me, it's them.
I see that sentiment a lot in threads like these, or more commonly in "nice guys finish last" threads all over the internet. The thing about this though is that it has become the ubiquitous go to comment that flips the simplifications back on the poster, making assumptions or implications at him, which are often just as unfair. In many cases nice guys have been marginalized, thanks to feminism. If we explore deeper we see a plethora of information to support the idea that women have many social/legal/economic advantages men do not. How this translates into the discussion here is simply that if one examines the parts rather than the whole one can see very clearly that western society is highly gynocentric; he is expected to ask her out and withstand repeated rejections while she is only expected to be asked out and decide, or he is expected to be struck in the face when she's upset and it's not okay but not really wrong whereas if she is struck in the face by him it is criminal.
I'm giving only the most rudimentary examples to illustrate my point.
In America it has become very common for women to trade up (read: hypergamy) as well as starter marriages, which are also a common trend. The other problem I see right off with feminism is that it has created a landscape of single mothers that have wasted their "first times" and "fertile years" on players and bad-boys, leaving the good or "nice guys" to pick up the forlorn pieces and be grateful for the "privilege".
Speaking mostly for myself here:
This is one of those issues where people almost always have a side they're already on and no amount of debating will change that, but when the nice guy discussion rears it's head the straw man deference to "it's not them it's you" has never sat right with me. I'm a nice guy, people have told me this a lot, and many who do so mistake this for being timid or weak, that my courteous and usually respectful demeanor is characteristic of a flaw in my ability to "be a man". I've actually said no to women more than women have said no to me, but that's because of things, like feminism, having shaped them into people well below my personal standards, such as the unwed single mother or the woman divorced before she's 25. "Nice guys" and "good guys" are often interchangeable, and while a bad boy can be a nice guy too, it's usually not the case, but rather a a lot of projecting and denial of the obvious, which is why they wind up with kids and baby-daddy issues, and why I consider such people too harmful to get involved with too personally. It really is not me, it's them.
If basic human decency is what you consider to be one of your strong points, then you're probably a bad person.
It's born out of typical whiny awkward kids thinking that it's something besides their awkwardness and whininess is the reason they don't have a girlfriend.
No, girls are not obligated to give sex to everybody who picks up a pencil or holds the door for them.
It's born out of typical whiny awkward kids thinking that it's something besides their awkwardness and whininess is the reason they don't have a girlfriend.
No, girls are not obligated to give sex to everybody who picks up a pencil or holds the door for them.
I identify myself as being the "nice guy", the male in the room with usually the most manners and decency, don't drink, don't smoke, i'm interested in being polite to women.
History has taught me women would rather give jobless egotistical idiots lots of children than talk to me, i wouldn't say the nice guy is a stereotype because i'm living it, i have no interest in lowering myself to get laid.
History has taught me women would rather give jobless egotistical idiots lots of children than talk to me, i wouldn't say the nice guy is a stereotype because i'm living it, i have no interest in lowering myself to get laid.
Pretty much every aspect of this is missing the Nice Guy bit. Because you're making the assumption all the girls want the guy who'll love them and leave them and ignore the poor suffering shy kid.omega 616 said:
That's just not the person we're describing, it's someone who (while they may be shy or lacking in confidence) is treating their interactions with a woman as a guaranteed romantic relationship regardless of the other person's feelings solely because they treat them with decency. Even if it's not just for sex, it's still ignoring the fact women have their own sense of agency, their own thing they're attracted to. That same 'nice guy' may well have a girl crushing after him who's too shy to say so but f*ck that, he's decided this girl he talks to is the one he wants and gets upset that someone else who actually talks to her.
Basically, you're assuming the nice guy is actually nice. Listening to someone and being nice isn't dropping them hints, it's social interaction (I mean shit, you aren't trying to bang your sister if you listen to her problems and comfort her about them, why would you ever think treating someone like a human being automatically equates to romantic attraction?)
The guys who are just in it for the sex may be jerks, but at least they don't pretend they aren't. You could of course try not being a nice guy but instead being a GOOD guy and just helping someone because they're your friend.
I think the problem here is the relative definition of "Nice". Reading a lot of the posts people seem to think it's the same "nice" you'd treat a stranger with, but with the "Nice Guy" it's generally more than that, it's always being their when they need someone to talk to, it's giving them a ride home when their car breaks down or their drunk, it's constantly buying them gifts etc. They'd give them the world if they could.CaptainMarvelous said:
While those are all nice things to do for someone, they shouldn't be treated as a means to guarantee a romantic payoff. If you're doing a good deed on the belief you'll be rewarded, you're not doing a good deed.wulf3n said:
EeveeElectro said:
Hah, sorry you guys.Bara_no_Hime said:
This topic always rubs me up the wrong way after dealing with my own `nice guy` years back. I lost a good friend to this kind of asshattery, out of nowhere, and everyone told me it was my fault.
Yeah, my nice guy wanted that with me too.omega 616 said:
He just didn't care that I did not want that with him, and therein lies the problem. The reaction many of these people give after they realise you are not going to transform into their manic pixie dreamgirlfriend.
Uh... you're kind of making the mistake that the `nice guys` make.omega 616 said:
Which is dividing all men into `passive and nice` and `only in it for sex and jerks`.
Men do not all fit neatly into those categories.
And also, usually these women are going for people they are interested in- what's wrong with that, exactly? (Without resorting to the two-category generalisation).
I'm going to play the Devil's Advocate for a second.
Why shouldn't guys pull the Nice Guy thing? I'm not a hundred percent sure it exists, at least not in the way people think it exists, but I'm going to go by the definition so far.
Guy is nice. Overly Nice. Expects that earns a ride in her pants? Is that the jist?
Ok. Nice Girls have been coming on to me my whole life. Girls who show their interest by doing things for me, being overly friendly, and me 'being stupid enough' to think that we are just friends.
Now here's the thing. I get that's annoying. But no one else seems to think so when it's a girl doing said actions. Most of the time, our friends get into the mix and support her. Why shouldn't I want to be with her? She's friendly, and nice to me. Our friends say that she's just shy and she doesn't know how to flirt, so she tries to be nice. That is the point I'm trying to make; What if these guys are just bad at trying to flirt and try to be noticed another way?
I've had blow outs that I was leading someone on because I 'accepted her niceness but didn't continue it' because in her and apparently other people's minds, women being nice is just the same as flirting. So why can't it be the same for guys? I had it done politely (and those hurt my heart), and I've gotten yelled at and lost some friends because I didn't commit when the girl decided that we should just bang. Because I was being a player for accepting her signals, giving them back (aka just freaking being friendly and nice like she was), and then not taking her up on her offer.
I don't believe that those girls were faking being nice. I think that's who they are, and they were just trying to show affection in the only way they knew how. I think that's the same for guys, because in literally no moment of my life has 'being nice' been the desirable guy's thing. It's always the bad boy, the cool guy or the rich guy. Never the nice guy.
I think these guys are just as confused as these girls, and some have bad meltdowns. Hell, I know a lot of women here who are just so ready that anyone with an XY pairing is ready to be some sort of jerk. Why wouldn't a man try to be the exact opposite to get to know or potentially get with her? It's not the optimal thinking, and it's actually pretty asinine, but look at what men are actually dealing with.
Open up google. Type in 'Why are guys'. See the fun results.
Why are guys so mean.
Why are guys such jerks
Why are guys so stupid.
Type in 'Why are men' now
Why are men players
Why are men assholes
Why are men so mean... again. Damn, guys, what are we doing out there?
Anyway, who wants to seem to be apart of all of that? If you're a clueless guy and you see the mountain of women complaining about how men are these horrible, mean creatures, I'd assume the leap to being the opposite of all that isn't that hard to come to.
If 'nice guy' exists, I don't think it comes from a place of assholeness. They might be assholes, but there are so many better angles to try to actually get women to pay interest in you. I think they are simply clueless and frustrated. I'm sure if we all had a penny for every time we heard a woman say 'why can't I just find a nice guy'*, we could solve the economic issues still plaguing this world.
*Bonus round, look up 'why can't I find a nice guy' in google. Mixed bag, but the question is still asked.
Why shouldn't guys pull the Nice Guy thing? I'm not a hundred percent sure it exists, at least not in the way people think it exists, but I'm going to go by the definition so far.
Guy is nice. Overly Nice. Expects that earns a ride in her pants? Is that the jist?
Ok. Nice Girls have been coming on to me my whole life. Girls who show their interest by doing things for me, being overly friendly, and me 'being stupid enough' to think that we are just friends.
Now here's the thing. I get that's annoying. But no one else seems to think so when it's a girl doing said actions. Most of the time, our friends get into the mix and support her. Why shouldn't I want to be with her? She's friendly, and nice to me. Our friends say that she's just shy and she doesn't know how to flirt, so she tries to be nice. That is the point I'm trying to make; What if these guys are just bad at trying to flirt and try to be noticed another way?
I've had blow outs that I was leading someone on because I 'accepted her niceness but didn't continue it' because in her and apparently other people's minds, women being nice is just the same as flirting. So why can't it be the same for guys? I had it done politely (and those hurt my heart), and I've gotten yelled at and lost some friends because I didn't commit when the girl decided that we should just bang. Because I was being a player for accepting her signals, giving them back (aka just freaking being friendly and nice like she was), and then not taking her up on her offer.
I don't believe that those girls were faking being nice. I think that's who they are, and they were just trying to show affection in the only way they knew how. I think that's the same for guys, because in literally no moment of my life has 'being nice' been the desirable guy's thing. It's always the bad boy, the cool guy or the rich guy. Never the nice guy.
I think these guys are just as confused as these girls, and some have bad meltdowns. Hell, I know a lot of women here who are just so ready that anyone with an XY pairing is ready to be some sort of jerk. Why wouldn't a man try to be the exact opposite to get to know or potentially get with her? It's not the optimal thinking, and it's actually pretty asinine, but look at what men are actually dealing with.
Open up google. Type in 'Why are guys'. See the fun results.
Why are guys so mean.
Why are guys such jerks
Why are guys so stupid.
Type in 'Why are men' now
Why are men players
Why are men assholes
Why are men so mean... again. Damn, guys, what are we doing out there?
Anyway, who wants to seem to be apart of all of that? If you're a clueless guy and you see the mountain of women complaining about how men are these horrible, mean creatures, I'd assume the leap to being the opposite of all that isn't that hard to come to.
If 'nice guy' exists, I don't think it comes from a place of assholeness. They might be assholes, but there are so many better angles to try to actually get women to pay interest in you. I think they are simply clueless and frustrated. I'm sure if we all had a penny for every time we heard a woman say 'why can't I just find a nice guy'*, we could solve the economic issues still plaguing this world.
*Bonus round, look up 'why can't I find a nice guy' in google. Mixed bag, but the question is still asked.
That is the bit I was describing in my first post, it's not they are "treating their interactions with a woman as a guaranteed romantic relationship regardless of the other person's feelings solely because they treat them with decency" ... it's more about "isn't this what is meant to be boy friend material?" it isn't some sordid, deceitful, underhanded thinking behind it. It's trying to aspire to be the perfect boy friend so the girl will ask the guy out 'cos he is scared of being laughed at/doesn't know how/whatever.CaptainMarvelous said:
You might have a point, if it wasn't for the fact you can tell that the guy she will end up going out with is the classic jerk ... will "date" for a couple of months and then when he is bored of her, he will dump her.
You're telling me, you haven't seen a girl/boy at school and been like "wow, (s)he is the person I want to spend the rest of my life with" it might just be a school yard crush but that's not the point. I am watching smallville (I like it, okay!) you have Clark Kent who from the first time he saw Lana, he loved her and Chloe who loves Clark.
There is being nice and being nice, one is pretty obvious that other person is into you and the other is being a friend. It's like hanging out with that friend nobody likes and hanging out with friends you do like.
The nice guys aren't pretending to be nice and are actually jerks in nice clothing, no fucker is going to pretend to be nice 'cos it doesn't work with the ladies, which is why there is so much bitching about it. Nice guys are not devious jerks, they lack confidence and don't know how else to go about getting a girl friend.
Stop being so cynical and thinking people have hidden agendas, some people might but I bet WAY too many nice guys get tarred with the wrong brush. For a second believe that nice guys are exactly like I state they are, now add on to the fact they can't get a girl with the fact that people like you are making them out to be devious sexual predators.
To make the logical argument, what kind of person plays "the nice guy" to get sex, when nice guys don't get sex? It's like a rapist who can't rape!
What I think alot of people need to realize is that real life will involve rejection- it's not like a movie where men are the protagonists and 'get the girl', and that hey, women are people, girls get hurt and rejected too. This isn't only happening to you, and it isn't only happening to men. And yes, there are some women who will have all the boys in the yard, and men who act like utter assholes yet have a harem wherever they go... no two situations are really the same.
Once you really accept that, you can hopefully confidently approach the girls you want to develop a relationship with with honesty (and not be a jerk), and also treat women you like as friends, with no expecting of anything else (and not be a Nice Guy).
Well, at least that is my take on the situation.
Awww, captcha was 'slender man is slender'.
I wish I wasn't so fat... maybe captcha (and women) would like me...
Once you really accept that, you can hopefully confidently approach the girls you want to develop a relationship with with honesty (and not be a jerk), and also treat women you like as friends, with no expecting of anything else (and not be a Nice Guy).
Well, at least that is my take on the situation.
Awww, captcha was 'slender man is slender'.
I wish I wasn't so fat... maybe captcha (and women) would like me...