It Never Ends

[Lee Oyd]

The implication here is that most blockbusters cater to the dumb, or more precisely, the largest audience through lowest common denominator and that will not change.

Except, again, that the lowest theoretically possible common denominator would not consist of less than one-fifth of the world population. (That's the actual proportion of white people in the world. And that's before sex, sexuality, age or religion enter the picture.)

Making female characters in video games attractive - even comically so - is only a bad thing if they also lack depth.

Not quite. The problem is that when your character has a vagina, the game becomes porn.

"And for fucking what?" is the problem, more precisely. Are players supposed to masturbate while playing? That's the only possible vibe I'm getting, and for that, far more effective stuff is one Google search away. Hell, let's go ahead and assume it absolutely has to take the form of a video game -- you still have a shitload of choice out there waiting for you.

So what's the point? Could it be the contrarianistic, hardly-any-less-masturbatory thrill of Offending (R) The Feminists (R)? An urge to feel like edgy, special snowflakes apparently so powerful it takes priority over stuff like not being shit -- just to be dicks to a certain group of people? How in the unholy mother of fuck is that defensible?

Also, the other problem again. The guy's a bigoted ****. Then again, this whole shitstorm -- and the fact that it is a shitstorm to begin with -- does nothing to convince me that the fault is specifically on him. As opposed to nerds at large.

So much for being Nice Guys.

 

[TTYTYTTYYTTYTTTY]

snip

My point being passing the bechdal test does not equate to a great, or even good film and that focus on having to pass such tests would kill any art form, turning it into propaganda.

My twilight/50 point is this, they pander to a female demographic, are popular and very profitable. We do not argue sexism in such literature to the same extent that feminist seem to vilify the games industry for pandering to a male audience, instead of them. "I believe it is doing empirical harm to men and women alike", yet female centric/pandering fiction is not, thus this "supposed" harm is hyperbolic at best. The answer is not to censor the games industry into political correct subservience, but to bring in more women, especially non-gamers with games that better appeal to them than fps, fighting, etc.

"you're arguing in defense of women having their place and not being allowed out of it.

No, your arguing for men to have no place, whilst women have there own places. I'm saying if this really does bother you and there really is nothing else you could play, than figure out why and try to come up with better games. Currently "girl games" tends to be viewed as an insult referring to casual or mobile games. This isn't just because of "misogyny", self proclaimed girl gamers seem to believe if they don't act just like the men then it shows that women are weak, that'd be like if a man forced himself to watch and keep up to date with female-centric media, lest he be viewed as a man.

Try as you might, gender roles do relate to our innate biology, so without eugenics and trans-humanism they'll still exist. Until we "evolve" into cybermen, thus losing all gender and sex, these arguments will only continue.

Edit: screwed up quotes

 

[Lee Oyd]

Men and women liking the same thing is a metaphysical impossibility because girls are strange and they have cooties and they're stupid and gay and they hate fun.

 

[TTYTYTTYYTTYTTTY]

Men and women liking the same thing is a metaphysical impossibility because girls are strange and they have cooties and they're stupid and gay and they hate fun.

There's overlap, but inherently we are different. And since many feminists and their ilk seem to complain about "sexist" video games, then the answer is simple they create games they actually like and stop complaining. Men may complain or laugh at Twilight, but not because they want it to appeal to them.

 

[Lee Oyd]

It's not "not appealing." It's specifically being dicks to a particular group of people just to feel like an edgy seekrit club of oppressed snowflakes. Not even Twilight shits this much, this consistently and this actively on the other half of humanity. Valve games have shittons of female fans and I don't remember being forced to look at Scout's bare ass 8 times per minute.

And shit, making lonely women masturbate to stupid crap doesn't even encompass the entire medium of literature like it does with video games.

 

[TTYTYTTYYTTYTTTY]

It's not "not appealing." It's specifically being dicks to a particular group of people just to feel like an edgy seekrit club of oppressed snowflakes. Not even Twilight shits this much, this consistently and this actively on the other half of humanity. Valve games have shittons of female fans and I don't remember being forced to look at Scout's bare ass 8 times per minute.

And shit, making lonely women masturbate to stupid crap doesn't even encompass the entire medium of literature like it does with video games.

Yeah, like overly sexualized females in games are the issue. They exist, though they barely make up even a fraction of all of gaming. jimB seems to find it problematic that women in gaming aren't the sole main character with no men in there lives, this does happen quite often and could be dealt with, if more females developed games. Of the 46% of female gamers, most only play casual and mobile games or play there games casually, few put in as much devotion as there male counterparts. This tells me that though women can and do like playing games, the current genres do little to attract female attention and a simple paint swap (i.e. removal of sexualization) is not the answer.

Wait, so you've seen men masturbate to Civilization?

 

[JimB]

My point being passing the Bechdel test does not equate to a great or even good film.

Fine, but I never said it does, so could you please limit your counterarguments to things I actually said?

My Twilight/Fifty point is this: They pander to a female demographic, are popular and very profitable.

No, Twilight panders to a pubescent female demographic by simultaneously targeting their budding need for sexual expression and their fear of sexual pain. As for whom Fifty Shades panders to...Christ if I know. Sub-literate masochists with fantasies of being raped, I guess.

We do not argue sexism in such literature to the same extent that feminists seem to vilify the games industry for pandering to a male audience instead of them.

Who's the "we" who aren't arguing there's sexism in literature? Is it you and me? Because yeah, I am not arguing about books on a website devoted to video games. Should I be?

Also, what do you think the word "pandering" means, such that women want to be pandered to?

"I believe it is doing empirical harm to men and women alike," yet female-centric/pandering fiction is not, thus this "supposed" harm is hyperbolic at best.

What you just said is so nonsensical I'm having a hard time thinking of a response to it. You seem to think I object to the industry's sexism against women for no other reason than that it's against women, and would have no problem if it was against me. That's crap. I object because--and how many times have I said this now, incidentally? Are you even paying attention any more?--we live in a world where judges will say a woman who accused a man of rape is a liar because she was wearing jeans and a man cannot rape a woman wearing jeans because he wouldn't be able to take them off without her consent, and I think the video games industry contributes to the atmosphere that wants us to treat women as sexual objects. I think that's pretty goddamned inarguable, actually.

The answer is not to censor the games industry into politically correct subservience, but to bring in more women, especially non-gamers with games that better appeal to them than first-person shooters, fighting, etc.

I do not care about how many women are interested in gaming. That is not my complaint. I care about the message the video games industry is sending and its contributions to a toxic culture of objectification. I care that it is part of the problem. Women not finding video games appealing is at most a symptom of a greater disease, and focusing on it is like giving someone Tylenol because the only part of his pneumonia you care about is his fever.

"You're arguing in defense of women having their place and not being allowed out of it."

No, you're arguing for men to have no place, while women have their own places.

Crap, and for two reasons. In the first place, a proponent of eliminating gender roles wants there to be no set place for either gender. In the second place, it's ridiculously offensive to me as a man that you sit here and argue a game has to dress a woman like a stripper in order for it to be "my place."

This isn't just because of "misogyny;" self-proclaimed girl gamers seem to believe if they don't act just like the men then it shows that women are weak.

And you don't see how a belief that acting like a woman is weak and therefore bad is the very definition of misogyny? You really don't?

Try as you might, gender roles do relate to our innate biology, so without eugenics and trans-humanism they'll still exist.

Crap. They're a social construct, just like wearing clothes and wiping our asses instead of running around naked with shit caked in our pubic hair like the animals we are. Gender roles are taught and learned, and there is no damned reason we can't teach and learn something better than "girls are pink, boys are blue."

JimB seems to find it problematic that women in gaming aren't the sole main character with no men in their lives.

I have said, multiple times and in extremely explicit language, what I find problematic. Please stop misrepresenting my position.

 

[Lee Oyd]

Yeah, like overly sexualized females in games are the issue.

<url=http://www.escapistmagazine.com/forums/read/18.406654-Gaming-Media-Boobies-and-Poorly-Thought-Out-Responses-Oh-My?page=2#16934894>Oh for fuck's sake.

The issue is that the very concept of not being about emptying your balls...is made about emptying your balls.

 

[TTYTYTTYYTTYTTTY]

This isn't just because of "misogyny;" self-proclaimed girl gamers seem to believe if they don't act just like the men then it shows that women are weak.

And you don't see how a belief that acting like a woman is weak and therefore bad is the very definition of misogyny? You really don't?

Women are the "misogynists" in that case then, they are the ones putting themselves up against the men. If a woman were to compete in in the mens 100m sprint, she lose and be perceived weak, that's why Olympic events are separated by gender. Gaming can have men/women equal at top tier, but the problem is far fewer women than men devote themselves to a hobby and thus men still dominate the highest tiers.

Try as you might, gender roles do relate to our innate biology, so without eugenics and trans-humanism they'll still exist.

Crap. They're a social construct, just like wearing clothes and wiping our asses instead of running around naked with shit caked in our pubic hair like the animals we are. Gender roles are taught and learned, and there is no damned reason we can't teach and learn something better than "girls are pink, boys are blue."

Have you ever read a biology textbook? Hell, go look at apes, they don't have our harmful taught gender roles, yet they have the female as caregiver and males as strong and dominant. It has been proven in humans even without teaching said gender roles, males and females tended to naturally go that way. So your going to have to do something drastic to remove gender.

As for whom Fifty Shades panders to...Christ if I know. Sub-literate masochists with fantasies of being raped, I guess.

That is the most common fetish among women, the fact it sells is proof of that and your lack of sympathy to such a fetish just shows you either do not share such fetish or are in the closet.

"we live in a world where judges will say a woman who accused a man of rape is a liar because she was wearing jeans and a man cannot rape a woman wearing jeans because he wouldn't be able to take them off without her consent,"

Bull, a woman can falsely accuse a man of rape and he'll be jailed without even so much as due process, since of course women never lie and any questioning of their supposed "truth" is tantamount to victim-blaming.

"Please stop misrepresenting my position." "The games I would like to see are games where the female characters dress like human beings dress, basing their choices on what's appropriate to the situation rather than what shows off the largest percentage of titty. Female characters would do things because they have reasons to do them rather than have things happen to them as part of a male character's story arc. Female characters would not have their love or bodies offered to either male characters or to male gamers as rewards, as if a woman's a trophy to be handed out. There would not be an inherent assumption that a female character must be the love interest of a male character, because developers would realize women are perfectly capable of existing outside of a relationship to a man. Writers would not put women into situations they wouldn't put men into, or vice-versa."

The only way you'd achieve this is to have women as the main character with no men in there lives. Also you are trivializing the immense work and time that goes into writing, and to that I take offense. This is not soviet Russia and you are not the gestapo.

 

[TTYTYTTYYTTYTTTY]

Yeah, like overly sexualized females in games are the issue.

<url=http://www.escapistmagazine.com/forums/read/18.406654-Gaming-Media-Boobies-and-Poorly-Thought-Out-Responses-Oh-My?page=2#16934894>Oh for fuck's sake.

The issue is that the very concept of not being about emptying your balls...is made about emptying your balls.

Sexualized characters are NOT the issue, it just allows many people to unite against something. If sexualized characters were an issue to people then fashion mags, celeb rags and advertisements portrayal of women, would've been dealt with as they are actually perpetuating harm. Since they still exist, any and all claims of "misogyny" or "harmful stereotypes" from video game characters should fall on deaf ears. "Toddlers in Tiaras" wasn't created because of video games. Normalization of women continually caking there faces with make-up until they've damaged face enough that they need makeup in order to look normal, also was not created nor is it perpetuated by Mai's jigging breasts.

The issue is that traditional gaming does not appeal to the vast majority of women, instead there happily tapping away at some mobile game.

 

[JimB]

This isn't just because of "misogyny;" self-proclaimed girl gamers seem to believe if they don't act just like the men then it shows that women are weak.

And you don't see how a belief that acting like a woman is weak and therefore bad is the very definition of misogyny? You really don't?

Women are the "misogynists" in that case, then.

So what? How does that invalidate the point?

Have you ever read a biology textbook? Hell, go look at apes, they don't have our harmful taught gender roles, yet they have the female as caregiver and males as strong and dominant.

Huh. Been a long time since anyone told me that I should accept a behavior because monkeys accept it.

Jonathan Braun, gender roles are no longer relevant in the western world. Technology has made that so. Male animals are strong and dominant because they are more capable killers and can better defend the family unit, but human beings have guns, and now violence is completely equalized among the genders. Strength no longer matters; you just have to be able to point at someone and they will die.

Likewise, since we use money to buy food and shelter instead of killing other animals directly for them, women can now be every bit as capable as men of stepping out of the caregiver role and into the role of provider, depending on her job.

[Being raped] is the most common fetish among women.

I demand a citation for your assertion.

The fact that it sells is proof of that.

First of all, that's crap. That it sells is only proof that it sells, and implies nothing about the fantasies of the people buying it. Second, if we're determining the fantasies of all women based on literary sales trends, then the Twilight series is proof that the most common fetish among women is abstinence.

Your lack of sympathy to such a fetish just shows you either do not share the fetish or are in the closet.

No, it says I think people who genuinely enjoy Fifty Shades of Grey are sub-literate morons. I don't care if they like it for the bland-as-lukewarm-oatmeal sex scenes, or if they like it because they think the characters are compelling, or if they like it because they think the plot is tense.

A woman can falsely accuse a man of rape and he'll be jailed without even so much as due process.

Please provide examples of unproven rape allegations resulting in conviction in defiance of the law.

The only way you'd achieve this is to have women as the main characters with no men in their lives.

Are you arguing that only a woman who knows no men can be a protagonist? That simply knowing a male character invalidates her self-determination? Because that's pretty crap right there.

Also you are trivializing the immense work and time that goes into writing, and to that I take offense.

Then you are taking offense to a fantasy, because I never directly nor indirectly mentioned or referenced the work or time required to write, and I really have no idea what on Earth you're talking about.

This is not Soviet Russia and you are not the Gestapo.

I never said this is (whatever "this" means), and I never said I am.

 

[TTYTYTTYYTTYTTTY]

I never said this is (whatever "this" means), and I never said I am.

What you say is not just what you say.

this:

"The games I would like to see are games where the female characters dress like human beings dress, basing their choices on what's appropriate to the situation rather than what shows off the largest percentage of titty. Female characters would do things because they have reasons to do them rather than have things happen to them as part of a male character's story arc. Female characters would not have their love or bodies offered to either male characters or to male gamers as rewards, as if a woman's a trophy to be handed out. There would not be an inherent assumption that a female character must be the love interest of a male character, because developers would realize women are perfectly capable of existing outside of a relationship to a man. Writers would not put women into situations they wouldn't put men into, or vice-versa."

Translation: Females should dress normal, and must be period clothing (w/e period it is). Females would only do something because the have to, not because some man tells her to. Females should never be in any danger ever and also have no relationship with any other male character. Again, no relationships the woman must be single, otherwise it undermines her credibility. Women and men should be treated completely equal, no exceptions.

Are you arguing that only a woman who knows no men can be a protagonist? That simply knowing a male character invalidates her self-determination? Because that's pretty crap right there.

No you did. You cannot adhere to your "guidelines" w/o removing men entirely, or just not including humans at all.

Jonathan Braun, gender roles are no longer relevant in the western world.

It is not, relevant or not relevant, we are biologically predisposed to certain attitudes. If you wish to rid yourself of gender roles then, you'll need to make people yourself.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=hOYO4KwJbzc

Lastly women being weaker then men, when they do not compete on equal terms, is not misogyny. If women competed on equal terms and won, yet was denied the victory, now that'd be misogyny.

 

[Knight Templar]

feminists have succeded in passing many gynocentric laws that negatively affect men that the MHRM wishes to deal with

Such as?

It is not, relevant or not relevant, we are biologically predisposed to certain attitudes. If you wish to rid yourself of gender roles then, you'll need to make people yourself.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=hOYO4KwJbzc

Are you a Poe and I'm not in on the joke, or do you honestly not see how attempting to back your argument with something that not only doesn't prove your point, but is so outdated and wrong as this brand of racism, does nothing but highlight your own flaws?

 

[Lee Oyd]

Only one thing is ever sexist at one time ever. Nothing is sexist except what I say is.

<url=http://www.escapistmagazine.com/forums/read/18.406654-Gaming-Media-Boobies-and-Poorly-Thought-Out-Responses-Oh-My?page=2#16934894>Do you into words?

 

[JimB]

Before I begin, I want to thank you, Jonathan Braun, for learning how to quote. It's helpful.

I also want to ask, what the hell is up with your username being changed?

Anyway, let's bang our heads against some walls.

Translation:

I am trying very hard to be nice about this, but I gotta say, if this is genuinely what you think my words mean, then I think your reading comprehension is poor enough that our conversation is useless and should be abandoned. I will try to respond all the same for the sake of clarity, but I may be misunderstanding you since I don't know which specific parts of my argument you think correspond to your representations of my position.

Female characters should dress normally, and must be period clothing (whatever period it is).

I did not say they should dress normally and in period clothes. I said they should dress appropriately to the situation; that if Ivy has a choice between a thong and a suit of armor, but chooses the thong anyway, then she is a gibbering fucking moron.

Female characters would only do something because they have to, not because some man tells her to.

I don't think you understand what "story arc" means. I'm saying I want a female character's decisions to be based on her protagonism, not subordinated to someone else's.

Female characters should never be in any danger ever and also have no relationship with any other male character.

I can't even guess where you're getting this crap from. Is it the line about not putting women in situations you wouldn't put men in? Because all I'm talking about is not creating minigames around lesbian orgasms or including rape scenes, since you wouldn't do those things to a male character.

Again, no relationships; the woman must be single, otherwise it undermines her credibility.

No, I said I don't want there to be an inherent assumption that she'll hook up with a man. It's actually not terribly prevalent in games where women are the protagonists (Final Fantasy X-2 is the only one I can think of off the top of my head), but I thought it was worth emphasizing: If Megaman X, Kratos, and Link don't have to be someone's boyfriend at the end of the game, then female characters don't have to be someone's girlfriend.

Women and men should be treated completely equal, no exceptions.

Equality is crap. Equality is a stupid idea. Equality leads us to absurd arguments like putting the mentally handicapped in the same public schools as everyone else because it wouldn't be equal not to, despite their situations not being equal. I've never once used the word "equality" in this thread, and there's a reason for that.

No you did. You cannot adhere to your guidelines without removing men entirely, or just not including humans at all.

Crap. Male protagonists manage to have their own agency all the time despite knowing female characters; it just so happens the female characters are shadows of the male characters who only exist to serve the male characters' story arcs (Kratos's wife by dying; Princess Peach by being a reward for Mario; et cetera). I am emphatically not proposing a reversal of the situation, but I am saying if it can be done for one sex, it can be done for the other.

Jonathan Braun, gender roles are no longer relevant in the western world.

It is not, relevant or not relevant, we are biologically predisposed to certain attitudes.

This sentence is put together in a very weird way, and I do not understand it.

Lastly women being weaker then men, when they do not compete on equal terms, is not misogyny.

Same with this one.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=hOYO4KwJbzc

Are you a Poe and I'm not in on the joke, or do you honestly not see how attempting to back your argument with something that not only doesn't prove your point, but is so outdated and wrong as this brand of racism, does nothing but highlight your own flaws?

Hm. I didn't bother watching the video because I resent being expected to watch a video someone else made to get at in this case Jonathan Braun's words, but it sounds like I missed something good.

 

[JimB]

So I just realized something on the drive home from work.

Have you ever read a biology textbook? Hell, go look at apes, they don't have our harmful taught gender roles, yet they have the female as caregiver and males as strong and dominant.

It just now occurred to me that I don't think I've ever heard you say gender roles are a good thing. You've only said there are biological reasons for them, which doesn't even imply that they're good; shit, there are biological reasons for schizophrenia, but no one is suggesting we shouldn't treat schizophrenics just because there's a biological cause for their behaviors.

TTYTYTTYYTTYTTTY, do you actually think gender roles are a good and necessary element of society? If so, why?