Its 'sensationalism' and we know it.

[Thaluikhain]

Oh noes! People are unhappy with things that don't affect me. The horror.

Everybody understanding is not necessary to reach most of the end goals being complained about. More women/minorities in games? You don't need the "other side" to understand. Hell, Nintendo listened to complaints about Tomodachi Life, potentially effecting change in the next game, and people are still complaining about how wrong gays are for wanting representation. If the end goal is reached, is it pointless?

So "Don't understand just beat it into them ?"

Something tells me that's not how you meant that paragraph to come off but that's how it does.

Beat what into who?

Beat having more diverse games around in the gaming community?

It's getting to the stage where it would be like me saying "Twilight is terrible because we get to see Edward Cullen near nude but barely get to see any of Bella Swan's flesh." I'm not the demographic for Twilight.

Ah, yes, Twilight. A series of books and movies that led to millions of men losing their minds online because a group not normally pandered to (women) were getting attention and some major blockbuster movies. Well, that's kind of worth looking at.

Oh believe me there are many many reason to attack Twilight beyond "OMG how dare Hollywood aim a film at women" to pass all objection to the film off as just that is at best disingenuous and at worst a Strawman of your own.

There were...but the things that it was attacked were were rather selective.

And to follow up, if games marketed at teen boys were roughly the percentage of the market that blockbusters like Twilight aimed at teen girls were, would it be an issue? Further, if the market was disproportionately skewed in favour of women, would you be so quick to play the "demographics" game?

Well yes because attacking individual games is counter productive when it's an industry problem and you need to constantly make sure the context is an industry level discussion not simply a single title discussion.

The whole is made of smaller parts, though, you can't talk about large trends without their component parts.

 

[Eve Charm]

Well the medium as grown big enough that you can put a soap box in the middle of it and start trying to preach and old enough that you can find an example of anything in it if you wanted to. Now the average person knows a video game isn't just pong anymore so if you want to spout off on it about them, if they play them or not you can get it.

People are still forgetting tho that they don't have the rights to "Not be offended" or "Included." By all means if you have an issue with a game, You don't have to buy it, you don't have to look at it, you don't have to talk about it. It doesn't take a genius to know that you can do better if your more inclusive but you can also do better if you play to a certain crowd ((i.e. big boobs))

At the end of the day no one likes Soap box preachers and people playing the blind SJW role so you'd be entirely more effective and saner just not buying the game rather then telling people how backwards you think they are for liking something and getting a crapstorm thrown back at your for it.

 

[A Weakgeek]

snip

I'd just like to thank you for this post. Without exaggeration it is one of the best pieces i've read on this site, and most definitely the most reasonable post made about this topic. There are few if any points I disagree with and its heart warming to see someone put the amount of effort into something that is usually discussed in impulsive, enraged flamewars. Many of the paid journalists who write regularly about this kind of thing should learn a thing or two from you.

 

[The Crispy Tiger]

Here's my thing, name black characters that,

A) The Main Character, not a sidekick/side character
B) Aren't criminal's/Haven't Committed a Crime
C) All Customizable Characters Don't Count,

And for good measure, have them well written. You'll then see my problem with the game industry's lack of diversity. I'm not angry, I'm not protesting, I'm asking for much actually. I just want to see more good character's like. I'll admit first and foremost, this shit has gotten ridicules at a certain point but still, more character's of a different race in already established series wouldn't hurt...

 

[Uhura]

Mario Kart 8 discussion is a good example of this. The reviewer didn't call anyone racist.

No, but the OP insinuated that he did with his misleading thread title, which led to the waves of people calling the reviewer an idiot for something he didn't do. OP went back and fixed it, but he was too late.

People jumping into rage mode without even checking out the actual review is a problem. This very forum has had multiple threads where the OPs have baited others into getting all furious over nothing. I don't think it's too much to ask people check the sources before they get all upset, unless they enjoy getting played.

And, from what I've seen in the article, the guy did a lot of beating around the bush. I don't have psychic powers or anything, but he might as well have said it. Then again, it's not like it was click-bait, right? I mean, we didn't have another issue about racism with another game just before then, right? Right?

This is another problem. The article wasn't actually a click-bait. The review in question was called "Mario Kart 8 Review (Wii U)". Click-bait refers to articles that have sensationalist titles that get people to click on them. There was nothing sensationalist about the review title. The article had multiple paragraphs and the writer mentions diversity only in one paragraph near the end of the review and then ends up giving the game a good score anyway.

The reviewer commented on the lack of diversity in a very level headed manner without accusing Nintendo of being racist assholes. He had a moderate approach to the topic. But apparently that is not good enough. Even you yourself seem to be interested reading malice into his words and making his statements much more sinister than they actually were ('beating around the bushes', 'he might as well have said it'). Doesn't your reaction seem at all alarming to you? How are we actually supposed to have any reasonable discussions about the topic when people jump from 'lack of diversity' into 'he thinks they are racists!'?

Hating on "SJWs" is currently fashionable in this community.

(And the description SJW is applied very liberally to anyone who talks about race/gender/orientation etc. It doesn't seem to matter if they actually are radical in any way or not.)

I would hope so. They're generally reactionary prudes who overcompensate for their own insecurities, getting offended for others when the group in question had little to no problems with it in the first place. Most of the controversies kicked up by them are over petty grievances that make normal people scratch their head over the idea that someone was actually offended by it, trivializing the issue to the point that legitimate complaints are glazed over in favor of avoiding the SJWs in question.

And it's not productive to lump up everyone who brings up issues in the portrayal of gender/race/orientation under the SJW label.

But mostly, I'm just tired of the negativity of it all. They're fucking videogames. They won't appeal to everyone all the time. Yes, I agree that some should try, but trying to make them is the wrong way to go about it. Calling those that disagree racist or sexist is an even worse way to go about it. Especially in Mario Kart, where most of the drivers are either thinly veiled clones of other stereotyped human characters or fucking turtles. You know, something the reviewer didn't seem keen on bringing up.

You don't have to participate in the discussions though. People will continue discussing these issues (often because the issues directly affect their enjoyment of games) and you will save yourself from a lot of headache by not going in those threads if they upset you.

I have been gaming for 20 years. I have put a lot of time and money in this hobby and when I talk about sexism etc. issues in gaming, I don't do it to shit all over my hobby. I think the same is true for a lot of others who like to talk about these issues.

 

[Cowabungaa]

fiction is just fiction.

I think this is the bit I have the biggest trouble with. No, fiction is not 'just' fiction. Just take a crash-course in modern literature and you'll see how fiction is used to spread cultural ideals, how important fiction is in our cultural lives. Videogames are no different, especially among younger parts of our society they're filling that important role more and more.

And that alone makes videogames worthy of being a serious topic regarding social issues. They, as cultural bearers, can definitely perpetuate things that are morally wrong and that's a worthy thing to address.

Video game sexism is teaching kids to be sexists.
Video game racism is teaching kids to be racists.
Video game violence is teaching kids to be murderers.

Oh wait.

It is neither that crude or that simple, obviously. That and teaching cultural values is not equal to causing direct behavioral changes. To discredit the idea that fiction does not teach us anything just because it does not cause such changes is simply not true. Again, just take a crash course in modern literature (starting from its root in post-Roman Europe) and you'll see what I mean. Videogames are the latest big actor in that ancient history of our cultural mechanisms.

Hell, if anything that's exactly the reason why some people shout that "Oh my God our kids are becoming killers!" nonsense, they completely over-reach when it comes to their influence. Yet at the same time that makes us defenders numb to the obvious effects fiction does have on our culture. A perfect example of why the OP rightly says that sensationalism is a risk to social issues.

From 12th century chivalric romance novels promoting ideal aristocratic behavior to 19th century British realism novels spreading the word about social inequalities, fiction has always had a profound impact on our culture. In literary form, theater and film. Why would videogames, being the humongous medium that they already are, be any different in that regard.

 

[CloudAtlas]

From 11th century chivalric romance novels promoting ideal aristocratic behavior to 19th century British realism novels spreading the word about social inequalities, fiction has always had a profound impact on our culture. In literary form, theater and film. Why would videogames, being the humongous medium that they already are, be any different in that regard.

I mean, I understand where this reaction is coming from, why gamers get all touchy here, I really do, but come on, they need to think about what they're actually saying. Which is that being exposed to a certain environmental influence (entertainment) couldn't possibly have any signficant influence on anyone whatsoever... which is just ridiculous.

 

[CloudAtlas]

Hating on "SJWs" is currently fashionable in this community.

(And the description SJW is applied very liberally to anyone who talks about race/gender/orientation etc. It doesn't seem to matter if they actually are radical in any way or not.)

I would hope so. They're generally reactionary prudes who overcompensate for their own insecurities, getting offended for others when the group in question had little to no problems with it in the first place.

And there I always thought that men who are unable to identify with female characters due to their gender, who prefer their female characters to be barely more than sex dolls instead of full-fledged strong characters, or who throw a fit when gay characters hit on them are the ones who're suffering from insecurities related to their sexual identities. Thanks for clearing that up.

 

[gargantual]

Here's my thing, name black characters that,

A) The Main Character, not a sidekick/side character
B) Aren't criminal's/Haven't Committed a Crime
C) All Customizable Characters Don't Count,

And for good measure, have them well written. You'll then see my problem with the game industry's lack of diversity. I'm not angry, I'm not protesting, I'm asking for much actually. I just want to see more good character's like. I'll admit first and foremost, this shit has gotten ridicules at a certain point but still, more character's of a different race in already established series wouldn't hurt...

Theres Nothing wrong with a sincere request. We saw that from Tomadachi Life, and Nintendo's probably going to very receptive to it come a sequel. But I don't believe in verbally shaming developers as others have done for not showing diversity. It depends on the world they want to paint, and making caveats to other groups in the worlds they create demonstrates all the awareness I need. I feel everyone should make whatever floats their boat, not what they feel they should be compelled to write based on changes in society. A fantasy world is a free zone because they're not claiming it's based on our own.


I'd be the first person in line for an Ultimate Marvel feature film of the Black Panther, a Miles Morales Spiderman flick (with Donald Glover in the lead role), but If you look at Aaron Sylvester's post on page 3 of the thread Sexualization done right and see those production staff photos, there in lies which problem you're looking for. Diverse creative direction and pre-production staff leads to more open product. We're going to make whats reflective of our influences in all creative media, and its exception for people to write always outside of their own skin in popular fiction, not the rule.


IDK, for me I look at character before skin color, and that's the road to getting us the best black leads. Insufferable douchebag leads claiming moral or status superiority they can piss off, and only their struggle or total character will make me identify with as a player, not their skin color. That's like taking conservative Ron Christie and holding him up as some hero.

"See? He's accomplished and he black too! You'll get along just great!"

I'd say

"He's a sellout that speaks venom. Don't insult my intelligence. Get me a REAL black hero."


Look at how long sitcom coffee shop backgrounds took to color up the background. Most viewers saw that Seinfeld white default as just funny, rather than a social issue.


Hollywood jumped seemingly head over heels to attempt political correctness with cast mixing in films, and we just wound up with token characters still dying early, and terribly awkward interracial 'footloose' moments of people trying to relate in ways they never do in reality. and being shown more as pre 90's stereotypes in films. It took Neil Blomkamp's Elysium, to see random black dude as not a casualty. But for me judgement should be based on the story and the foundations the devs choose for themselves. I look at the game and say have they met what they explicit set out to accomplish. Whether they reflect earth in 2014 in their fiction is a secondary or tertiary consideration to me.

When I look at CJ Johnson and Franklin from the GTA series, I see these VG criminals as just the 'Boys in the hood' film angle that Scottish game developers genuinely wanted to explore, and they handled both men very well, seeing value in the story of young men feeling out of place with their living situation frustrated relationships, and pressures from corrupt outsiders. How many other companies outside of rock star would've completely mishandled that story or genuinely saw interest in '90s LA riots and following gang wars to begin with?

I don't factor in the idea that it perpetuates America's perception of the black male as criminal because in the real world that comes from ignorant people who've made up their minds to cling to fear, and not talk to us plainly and openly. If our own president needs a 'Luther' to be honest, the walls are being built up by ignorance in media, the same people who spread misinformation about real events and lives. Popular fiction doesn't hold that 'exact' same level of social reporting and responsibility.

Fortunately I've had people in my life of many different backgrounds who see through social smokescreens, and care about character more than facets.

So the same way I felt irritated at people jumping on the Rockstar, Midway, Id, Capcom, for making kill-fest video games, some of that extends to the shaming of developers for design choices. Rather than why would the make the choices they did, I'd be more concerned about how did they handle the subject matter they chose.

 

[Shadowstar38]

Who says? You? Do you fall into any one of those categories? Even if you did, you're just one person. How do you know how the collective thinks? It doesn't matter whether or not YOU see these issues as urgent, somebody obviously does, and I think the least you could is to try and at least understand the 'opposition,' and where they're coming from. It's a hell of a lot better than just getting pissed off and calling them 'irrational' if you ask me.

I understand them. That doesn't make their criticisms any less bizarre. I'd accept a game could benefit from some diversity were it to take place where humans are prominent. But when the rules of a world are so divorced from our own that humans themselves are an abnormality, bringing up its lack of diversity becomes questionable.

This is where some of the "not this shit again" attitudes come from when threads about these issues pop up. Every game is targeted regardless of tone or context.

In the case of Zero Suit Samus, the Power Armor *IS* Samus. Sure, a reward for 100% completion was a bikini shot, and I have a problem with that too. However, the Zero Suit is clearly for one thing only and that is to highlight the fact that Samus Aran is a woman and has a pair of tits and an arse.

That makes an assumption about the intent of the creators that we can't actually prove.

The suit makes no sense for combat because SHE HAS ONE FOR THAT! It's bad-ass and why isn't she wearing it? Because we want to see her tits and arse and we can't in the suit. ADMIT IT!

If we're talking about Zero Mission or Smash Brothers Brawl, its not working at the moment(again people, context). If we're talking about SB4, well its a separate thing altogether from Samus proper, so if you have a problem with the Zero suit, you have the choice of using the battle armor instead.

You ever thought maybe people have reasons for defending things that don't involve protecting what you perceived to be wank material?

But for the love of all that you hold dear, don't try to make out it isn't a terrible representation of Samus or women in general. Because by doing so, you are PERPETUATING the view that women are only to be ogled and stared at. Their abilities or intelligence mean nothing. YOU MIGHT NOT THINK THAT AT ALL, and the idea you do does insult you. But your beliefs don't matter, because by condoning or defending it, you reinforce it. Fact.

No...no that is not a fact. It's one interpretation of many for the purpose of a character's appearance.

 

[The Crispy Tiger]

Here's my thing, name black characters that,

A) The Main Character, not a sidekick/side character
B) Aren't criminal's/Haven't Committed a Crime
C) All Customizable Characters Don't Count,

And for good measure, have them well written. You'll then see my problem with the game industry's lack of diversity. I'm not angry, I'm not protesting, I'm asking for much actually. I just want to see more good character's like. I'll admit first and foremost, this shit has gotten ridicules at a certain point but still, more character's of a different race in already established series wouldn't hurt...

Theres Nothing wrong with a sincere request. We saw that from Tomadachi Life, and Nintendo's probably going to very receptive to it come a sequel. But I don't believe in verbally shaming developers as others have done for not showing diversity. It depends on the world they want to paint, and making caveats to other groups in the worlds they create demonstrates all the awareness I need. I feel everyone should make whatever floats their boat, not what they feel they should be compelled to write based on changes in society. A fantasy world is a free zone because they're not claiming it's based on our own.


I'd be the first person in line for an Ultimate Marvel feature film of the Black Panther, a Miles Morales Spiderman flick (with Donald Glover in the lead role), but If you look at Aaron Sylvester's post on page 3 of the thread Sexualization done right and see those production staff photos, there in lies which problem you're looking for. Diverse creative direction and pre-production staff leads to more open product. We're going to make whats reflective of our influences in all creative media, and its exception for people to write always outside of their own skin in popular fiction, not the rule.


IDK, for me I look at character before skin color, and that's the road to getting us the best black leads. Insufferable douchebag leads claiming moral or status superiority they can piss off, and only their struggle or total character will make me identify with as a player, not their skin color. That's like taking conservative Ron Christie and holding him up as some hero.

"See? He's accomplished and he black too! You'll get along just great!"

I'd say

"He's a sellout that speaks venom. Don't insult my intelligence. Get me a REAL black hero."


Look at how long sitcom coffee shop backgrounds took to color up the background. Most viewers saw that Seinfeld white default as just funny, rather than a social issue.


Hollywood jumped seemingly head over heels to attempt political correctness with cast mixing in films, and we just wound up with token characters still dying early, and terribly awkward interracial 'footloose' moments of people trying to relate in ways they never do in reality. and being shown more as pre 90's stereotypes in films. It took Neil Blomkamp's Elysium, to see random black dude as not a casualty. But for me judgement should be based on the story and the foundations the devs choose for themselves. I look at the game and say have they met what they explicit set out to accomplish. Whether they reflect earth in 2014 in their fiction is a secondary or tertiary consideration to me.

When I look at CJ Johnson and Franklin from the GTA series, I see these VG criminals as just the 'Boys in the hood' film angle that Scottish game developers genuinely wanted to explore, and they handled both men very well, seeing value in the story of young men feeling out of place with their living situation frustrated relationships, and pressures from corrupt outsiders. How many other companies outside of rock star would've completely mishandled that story or genuinely saw interest in '90s LA riots and following gang wars to begin with?

I don't factor in the idea that it perpetuates America's perception of the black male as criminal because in the real world that comes from ignorant people who've made up their minds to cling to fear, and not talk to us plainly and openly. If our own president needs a 'Luther' to be honest, the walls are being built up by ignorance in media, the same people who spread misinformation about real events and lives. Popular fiction doesn't hold that 'exact' same level of social reporting and responsibility.

Fortunately I've had people in my life of many different backgrounds who see through social smokescreens, and care about character more than facets.

So the same way I felt irritated at people jumping on the Rockstar, Midway, Id, Capcom, for making kill-fest video games, some of that extends to the shaming of developers for design choices. Rather than why would the make the choices they did, I'd be more concerned about how did they handle the subject matter they chose.

Dude, I totally see what you're saying. For me, as a writer, I just wish other writers had the same amount of variety that I do. I have a consistent amount of different people in my writing. The main character can be an overdramatic female drama queen with a love for violence, sex, and drugs, and then it could be a talking Koala, or a black guy engineer that's about to get kidnapped, because it's a horror movie and he's really in the wrong place at the wrong time. When I see that writers don't have this kind of variety, it just kinda makes me sad. I love the GTA series, and C.J and Franklin. But jesus, can we have a black character not in handcuff's. Even fucking Lee from The Walking Dead. And he's probably the most educated black character in all of video game history. The whole BIG BAD BLACK MAN stigma hasn't, and never will, go away. So when I see black criminals in games. I'm like, that's cool. Because we got... we got... I think there was a generic space game with a boring main character that had a black guy in it. It started with an H.

With that said, should we shame and belittle dev's for variety. Of course not, that's fucking stupid. But to ask and really think about this stuff. Yeah, I think it's good to think of this stuff. Political correctness is not a bad thing. It's in fact a very good thing. But it is also a thing that needs to not be taken overboard as to plunge us into shallow inoffensiveness and not keep pushing the envelope.

AND OF COURSE, it doesn't matter how many black characters you have if you don't have a well written one. I said the same thing about Star Wars Episode 7's casting. If he's written very well, it doesn't matter how many black characters are in the series, because casting should not be based on a quota but instead by the talent involved. Either way, I see your point, I just hope you can see mine.

 

[SilverBullets000]

Mario Kart 8 discussion is a good example of this. The reviewer didn't call anyone racist.

No, but the OP insinuated that he did with his misleading thread title, which led to the waves of people calling the reviewer an idiot for something he didn't do. OP went back and fixed it, but he was too late.

People jumping into rage mode without even checking out the actual review is a problem. This very forum has had multiple threads where the OPs have baited others into getting all furious over nothing. I don't think it's too much to ask people check the sources before they get all upset, unless they enjoy getting played.

Can't say I'm in disagreement with that sentiment, but that's still the way it went down.

And, from what I've seen in the article, the guy did a lot of beating around the bush. I don't have psychic powers or anything, but he might as well have said it. Then again, it's not like it was click-bait, right? I mean, we didn't have another issue about racism with another game just before then, right? Right?

This is another problem. The article wasn't actually a click-bait. The review in question was called "Mario Kart 8 Review (Wii U)". Click-bait refers to articles that have sensationalist titles that get people to click on them. There was nothing sensationalist about the review title. The article had multiple paragraphs and the writer mentions diversity only in one paragraph near the end of the review and then ends up giving the game a good score anyway.

The reviewer commented on the lack of diversity in a very level headed manner without accusing Nintendo of being racist assholes. He had a moderate approach to the topic. But apparently that is not good enough. Even you yourself seem to be interested reading malice into his words and making his statements much more sinister than they actually were ('beating around the bushes', 'he might as well have said it'). Doesn't your reaction seem at all alarming to you? How are we actually supposed to have any reasonable discussions about the topic when people jump from 'lack of diversity' into 'he thinks they are racists!'?

Because it's Mario Kart, honestly. It's a game about racing cartoon turtles, dinosaurs, and bad Italian stereotypes. That, as well as the fact that the words black (or ethnic, for that matter) and stereotype have never, ever been a good combination. Also, moderate is considering Mario white despite being Italian? Counting the baby versions of a character as separate characters? The evil versions of the characters to? The guy brings up the fact that there's so many "white" characters, despite most of them being thinly veiled versions of the same characters in different colored overalls and dresses. There's discussing a lack of diversity, and then there's just reaching to bring up an issue at all, and he was doing some serious reaching there.

Besides, the guy wouldn't have brought it up at all if Far Cry 4 hadn't just kicked up a shit storm about it. I'll concede that calling it click-bait was actually wrong of me though, but it still stinks of a follow-the-leader mentality.

Hating on "SJWs" is currently fashionable in this community.

(And the description SJW is applied very liberally to anyone who talks about race/gender/orientation etc. It doesn't seem to matter if they actually are radical in any way or not.)

I would hope so. They're generally reactionary prudes who overcompensate for their own insecurities, getting offended for others when the group in question had little to no problems with it in the first place. Most of the controversies kicked up by them are over petty grievances that make normal people scratch their head over the idea that someone was actually offended by it, trivializing the issue to the point that legitimate complaints are glazed over in favor of avoiding the SJWs in question.

And it's not productive to lump up everyone who brings up issues in the portrayal of gender/race/orientation under the SJW label.

Just as it isn't productive to label those who disagree with the stances they bring up as racist/sexist/homophobic. Still, you're right. My apologies, I guess the more reactionary of the group gets to me a little too much sometimes. Makes me too eager to react and see things where there is none myself. [sub]Consider that me also conceding to the malice thing you brought up earlier.[/sub]

But mostly, I'm just tired of the negativity of it all. They're fucking videogames. They won't appeal to everyone all the time. Yes, I agree that some should try, but trying to make them is the wrong way to go about it. Calling those that disagree racist or sexist is an even worse way to go about it. Especially in Mario Kart, where most of the drivers are either thinly veiled clones of other stereotyped human characters or fucking turtles. You know, something the reviewer didn't seem keen on bringing up.

You don't have to participate in the discussions though. People will continue discussing these issues (often because the issues directly affect their enjoyment of games) and you will save yourself from a lot of headache by not going in those threads if they upset you.

I have been gaming for 20 years. I have put a lot of time and money in this hobby and when I talk about sexism etc. issues in gaming, I don't do it to shit all over my hobby. I think the same is true for a lot of others who like to talk about these issues.

Which is why I normally don't. I just brought it up here because it seemed especially silly in the game in question. I can see discussing the issue in something like Hitman or CoD, but bringing it front and center for a game that brings out stereotypical elements of a race is just asking for trouble, which is why I brought it up.

17 years myself. I'm not against the discussions, really, just the juvenile preconceptions of the people who enjoy them and the nitpicking.

 

[SilverBullets000]

Hating on "SJWs" is currently fashionable in this community.

(And the description SJW is applied very liberally to anyone who talks about race/gender/orientation etc. It doesn't seem to matter if they actually are radical in any way or not.)

I would hope so. They're generally reactionary prudes who overcompensate for their own insecurities, getting offended for others when the group in question had little to no problems with it in the first place.

And there I always thought that men who are unable to identify with female characters due to their gender, who prefer their female characters to be barely more than sex dolls instead of full-fledged strong characters, or who throw a fit when gay characters hit on them are the ones who're suffering from insecurities related to their sexual identities. Thanks for clearing that up.

I'm not opposed to any of those things; I just don't like it when people jump down a game's throat right off the bat for otherwise petty reasons. It's why I enjoy the idea of Saint's Rows' character customizer, even if I've never gotten around to that game yet.
There's a time and a place, though. Bringing it up every time you see a woman's cleavage is a good way to have people ignore you, as opposed to bringing it up when Samus is having a random PTSD fit for seeing her nemesis for the thirtieth time and being otherwise completely incompetent most of the game.

 

[90sgamer]

I would've thought the witchhunting in action game tropes would be an internet battlefield that we all crossed in 2012-2013 and graduated from, but like TMZ or The Murdoch empire clamoring for the latest buzz and celebrity low moments to come out of their anuses every week, some of the press voices out there is becoming or has become 'The SUN'/'The Inquirer' when discussing social justice in video game themes. And some of us don't make it any better. What about justice in 'game design fundamentals? skill trees vs. paywalls (I.E. internet panhandling) and bad dlc pricing? That's not 'serious' enough anymore? We're still paying for those problems. Those latter mechanical and price issues are big issues that make a lot of games suffer and underperform.


But this 'cosmetic' crusades of video game themes is annoyingly reminiscent of the fake bohemia and fake activism that squandered underground hip hop and rock. The culture became a feather in the hat of 'enlightened' valley kids. who tossed the artform aside faster than psuedo earthers in the movie Biodome. Always stirring shit when its not that big, and looking for minions.

Its ridiculous that nothing can exist for its own fun and lunacy, but that it always it has to be some dumb 'symbol of oppresion' all the time. No wonder it gets so spoiled in gaming discussion, Whether the arguments made about a game's ASSUMED sociopolitics are right or wrong.

Representation issues may feel very real for some gamers out there, but the sheer volume of accusations of bigotry in action games is just stupid now and too flimsy to call it a valid movement. We read into shit too much.

This is how Occupy movement lost its luster, with all our 'knowledge' decsend into splintered mob wars making shit out of every little thing, instead of picking our battles, and learning from each other, and working effectively. I'm not crazy about the old testament, but on a large scale these fringe media fights make the community look like BABEL. as in we seriously dont understand each other, and if thats not a goal we're working for then the arguing should settle when it becomes pointless. To let things cool down eventually and have some thread progression with some LOLs and shared understanding, demonstrates our rationality. A largely uninvolved-enthusiast-game-machine like IGN.com shouldn't have to feel compelled to jump in on Far Cry 4 cries of racism to tell everyone to chill the hell out 'because its now become a business issue.

If that's not a CLEAR sign that these discussions, have become unproductive, then I don't know what is.


Its obessesive sensationalism picking at Far Cry 4, Zero Suit Samus, Mass Effect, even Mario Kart 8? about sexism and racism under some shallow hope that devs will be scared into from now on only making the safest archetypes and themes possible. These devs aren't bigots, they're people like us and it trivializes real world problems worse than hollywood-fake-cause movies ever could, and judges peoples' 3D art unecessarily. If those artists happen to have super fetishes that's them.


I'm of the opinion that if its a game that's mechanically supposed to allow for the fullest of individual, diverse expression and community like an MMO, and it denies it, then YES it can at times be a social and customer service issue.


But anything thats totally 'authored' by someone else with chosen characters with a beggining, middle and end is ultimately subjective. We have to go in with that disclaimer, not expecting that all themes and features were pre tailor-made to serve us completely. That is impossible. Because we're different people with different tastes, beliefs, emotional thresholds, and self image. and people at large are going to do or make whatever the hell they want to. Its part of why they got in this biz in the first place. They're not 60-100 hour workweek programmers, writers and 3D artists for shit they're not actively interested in making.

At some point, after lambasting action games, people gotta move on. Enough of this "if you're not 100 % agreement, you're against us." That attitude is antagonistic to free thought, and we know facists in history, or religionuts of the past have used the same words and sentiments to scare rational independent moderate people into their ranks. It doesn't matter what cause one stands for. People have to arrive there of their own mind and accord. No forum or twitter crusader is going to carry gamers and consumers to some stage of enlightenment. No REAL person is defined by an issue stance. We all have issues that we're left or right of center on and fiction is just fiction.

We can't have folks telling people how to think in such a free spirited, fantasy action loving community, and constantly hammering on players their genre of choice is socially horrendous. Thats Jack Thompson bs and inside our community too. The gamers ya'll disagree with arent idiots on the other end of an internet connection. They're also people, with their own responsibilities and groundings. We are told from the outset we are engaging in subjective fiction. Spin news, fake moral panics and tabloid click bait do not give such a disclaimer, but they can generate the wrong kinda followers.

I had to take a social-justice class yrs ago in college as part of a general social sci requirement, and man I seriously miss how 'mediation' 'agreeing to dissagree' and 'mutual understanding' were common themes in that class. Any student who tried to impose solutions on real world issues was taken down some notches, even if the professor knew their side was right. because pragmatists have a far better track record in solutions than 'crusaders', and for my final paper when everyone wanted to talk about Darfur, Terry Schiavo, North Korea, and Katrina etc, I remember choosing Media Sensationalism as the most dangerous SJ issue.



Clearly when multiplayer communities have dispelled the myths we form about each other, have bridged gaps, and we're still building these walls back up on clickbait. I can see I wasn't wrong.

Well said, as are your subsequent responses.

 

[K12]

I think the fundamental mistake that people (on both sides of the argument) make with all the social justicey type topics is that it is about the general trend and not specific instances.

When someone talks about a anti such and such trend in gaming (e.g. "black guy dialogue" where "************" and "awwwwwww sheeeeetttt!" are 50% of a black guy's lines") and lists examples.

This should not mean that all the games which contain those examples are made by racists and the games shouldn't exist. It is just a symptom of a more general problem which could be improved with people having a greater awareness that this stuff is annoying and limiting.

I don't know about anyone else but I seem to see far more "why can't SJWs shut the hell up" comments than anybody actually making a "this game is racist/sexist/XXXist" comment.

The "soundbite" approach to reporting feeds this shit more than anything else so the best thing to do is always to go to the source and where possible give benefit of the doubt.

There are dickheads on every side of ever conflict and debate throughout time and space. Make sure you're dismissing the point rather than just complaining at people you don't like.

 

[The Crispy Tiger]

Here's my thing, name black characters that,

A) The Main Character, not a sidekick/side character
B) Aren't criminal's/Haven't Committed a Crime
C) All Customizable Characters Don't Count,

And for good measure, have them well written. You'll then see my problem with the game industry's lack of diversity. I'm not angry, I'm not protesting, I'm asking for much actually. I just want to see more good character's like. I'll admit first and foremost, this shit has gotten ridicules at a certain point but still, more character's of a different race in already established series wouldn't hurt...

Black
True Crime Streets of New York
A Pimp RPG (it's technically true you're not a criminal yet in it)
Left 4 Dead 1 & 2
Shadowman
Team Fortress 2 (Demoman)
Aveline de Grandpré (AC 3 liberation)


Of Eastern origin
Shenmue
Strangle hold
Jade (BG&E)

Black but have technically committed crimes
CJ GTA SA
50 cent in blood on the sand and bulletproof
Torgue (The suffering)


Thats from a few minutes thinking and a google search. There probably are more, though it must be said that it's not a great list and more diversity would be a good thing for gaming and there is an issue of under-representation.

Okay, let's knock some out.

Left 4 Dead doesn't count to me because there's no real story or character development, exact same for Team Fortress 2. Shadowman is a VOODOO man. If don't know if they did it with grace, but I'll look it up. True Crime might be good, but I haven't played it so, there is that. Assassin's Creed really is the only one that stands out. It has not one but two good black character's in it's series DLC. That doesn't let the game industry off the hook since this isn't the majority and half of those games are obscure and the other is DLC. You're right about the Eastern descent, so I got give you credit where credit is due. Thanks for the great list thought!

 

[Signa]

At some point, after lambasting action games, people gotta move on. Enough of this "if you're not 100 % agreement, you're against us." That attitude is antagonistic to free thought, and we know facists in history, or religionuts of the past have used the same words and sentiments to scare rational independent moderate people into their ranks. It doesn't matter what cause one stands for. People have to arrive there of their own mind and accord. No forum or twitter crusader is going to carry gamers and consumers to some stage of enlightenment. No REAL person is defined by an issue stance. We all have issues that we're left or right of center on and fiction is just fiction.

This. This right here. I have slowly become more anti-gay/feminist/transgender/hot-topic-of-the-day over the years because of this mentality. It's odd, because I fully support each of those movements in spirit, but the moment you tell me that I'm a bad person for not caring enough, or lumping me in with "them[footnote]You know, those guys. The one keeping them down![/footnote]," I start to hate the community, and in turn, it sours what they are about.

Case in point: I no longer give two shits about feminism, and the moment you use the word cis in a sentence, I stop taking anything you have to say on anything seriously. At that point, you've become a creature of complete irrationality, and anything you believe probably isn't worth believing myself. This has nothing to do with if I believe woman should be equal (I totally do), but it's a direct result of how the community has handled itself.