Its 'sensationalism' and we know it.

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Uhura

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Aug 30, 2012
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SilverBullets000 said:
Fair enough. I still feel like the reviewer is cheating, but whatever. It's like I said before, there are ways to go about it without feeling like they're shoe-horning it in for the sake of those complaining. I just feel like it could go wrong as many ways as it could go right, especially with Mario being the stereotypical little Italian that he is.
Well, that's a valid concern and it's likely something people who want more diversity also have thought about. (I think there were some interesting points about tokenism and stereotypes made in the Mario thread.)

SilverBullets000 said:
Strictly speaking, caucasian males are white males with European descent. Italy's people have their own origin, therefore calling them white is incorrect because they're their own ethnicity.
Hmm, I don't think that's the case. I'm European and Italians are considered white/Caucasian over here.

SilverBullets000 said:
Can't agree with this, mostly because the review was released on the same day as that Far Cry 4 photo was revealed (I think the review was also released earlier in the day than the FC4 press photo). At the time, there wasn't really any drama about the FC4 photo. That came later during the week.
Oh, seriously? Well, that's what I get for assuming something. I really need to stop doing that.
Unfortunately, my searching isn't bringing up the original photo anywhere, or the date for it. Do you mind giving me a little clarification on that?
Here are some of the news stories about Far Cry 4 that feature the photo
The photo was released adjacent to the official announcement of the game on May 15th. The Mario review was released before noon on May 15th.
http://www.pastemagazine.com/articles/2014/05/mario-kart-8-review-wii-u.html
 

SilverBullets000

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Uhura said:
SilverBullets000 said:
Fair enough. I still feel like the reviewer is cheating, but whatever. It's like I said before, there are ways to go about it without feeling like they're shoe-horning it in for the sake of those complaining. I just feel like it could go wrong as many ways as it could go right, especially with Mario being the stereotypical little Italian that he is.
Well, that's a valid concern and it's likely something people who want more diversity also have thought about. (I think there were some interesting points about tokenism and stereotypes made in the Mario thread.)
Yes, thank you for hearing me out on the subject. As for the tokenism, I do agree to an extent with those who brought it up, but I actually thought the delfino and Toad ideas were actually a cool way to avoid it, even if they aren't strictly human characters. They'd even go as far as to avoid the stereotyping as well because they are different species.

SilverBullets000 said:
Strictly speaking, caucasian males are white males with European descent. Italy's people have their own origin, therefore calling them white is incorrect because they're their own ethnicity.
Hmm, I don't think that's the case. I'm European and Italians are considered white/Caucasian over here.
Hm. I had taken a quick look at wikipedia when I wrote that, but I know how flaky that can be. So, yeah, another instance I can be completely wrong and not know it. Most of the cast still consists of the same 4 or 5 characters as babies or in different colored outfits though, but I already stated that.

SilverBullets000 said:
Can't agree with this, mostly because the review was released on the same day as that Far Cry 4 photo was revealed (I think the review was also released earlier in the day than the FC4 press photo). At the time, there wasn't really any drama about the FC4 photo. That came later during the week.
Oh, seriously? Well, that's what I get for assuming something. I really need to stop doing that.
Unfortunately, my searching isn't bringing up the original photo anywhere, or the date for it. Do you mind giving me a little clarification on that?
Here are some of the news stories about Far Cry 4 that feature the photo
The photo was released adjacent to the official announcement of the game on May 15th. The Mario review was released before noon on May 15th.
http://www.pastemagazine.com/articles/2014/05/mario-kart-8-review-wii-u.html
Thank you. I'm a lot less annoyed by the whole issue now that I know it happened around the same time. I was more upset by the idea that they were pursuing a new political boogeyman and playing follow the leader thanks to one game's controversy than the idea of him wanting diversity in the game. After all, I really thought it was click-bait at first. Stupid of me, but my mistake regardless and one I'll admit to.
I still think it's a little silly with Mario Kart, but I've already gone over all the reasons why with you, and I appreciate that we had the conversation civilly and heard each other out rather than breaking down and calling each other names over it. Thanks again.
 

CloudAtlas

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SilverBullets000 said:
Strictly speaking, caucasian males are white males with European descent. Italy's people have their own origin, therefore calling them white is incorrect because they're their own ethnicity.
And Italians are not "of European descent"?

No, "native" Italians are most definitely white. Ever been to Italy, especially the Northern half?
 

The Lunatic

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Jun 3, 2010
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Oh gosh, the "I don't like this, so, you can't like it either, or you're -Insertword-ist." is more than a little obnoxious.


We get it, you dislike sexualised female characters. I dislike them too. but, I appreciate that, some people do like them, and I'm content to leave these people in peace.


I take issue with developers trying to lure in this audience into series which have no history of it, however, and it is a criticism of games I play.

We live in a world where you can literally buy sex dolls of women. Literally, an object of a woman.

And yet we're offended more by women in video games wearing scantily clad clothing?

Do you think the people whom make sex dolls consider what this doll represents for women? Do you think they hold this up as a staple of "This is what we think women are"?

Or do you think that they instead consider "Well, somebody finds this sexy, and that gives us money."?

So, let people have their silly overly sexual women in video games. Let them have their 2D women. It's just not aimed at people wanting more than that.

Instead, buy games that have decently written women, buy games that feature the things you want. Review games, let developers know you'd want stronger female leads in future iterations in the series, but, ultimately, be aware that the majority of the audience for that series, are content with how things are.
 

Johnny Thunder

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Agreed with the OP 100%, but I doubt it will change anyones mind. Either someone already agrees with that, or they will never, or they will eventually come to that conclusion on their own account...
 

Rariow

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The real problem here is that it's the internet. We've probably all been here long enough to realize that we're willing to go to much larger depths with pretty much every single issue than we'd be willing to in real life. Take the whole Mario Kart 8 thing. Is the observation true? Yes. That game does have a racist element to it. Now, what the internet does is take that observation and make it into an issue. The truth is this: Every piece of fiction, be it a novel, a film, a game, whatever, is going to have an element that discriminates against someone by their omission. This sucks. These people who are going to be discriminated against are more often than not going to be minorities within the culture producing said piece of fiction. I'm a middle class, white, straight male. Most of the people I know are middle class, white, and straight. I'm currently writing a crappy novel, which I instinctively populated with white, straight people who happen to behave the way the middle class does. I didn't do this intentionally, it's just what happened to occur to me because of how I lived my life.

This is an unfortunate trait of human behaviour: in creative work, we are drawn to that which we know and like. Since most people making games are, much like I am, white, straight males, we can expect to see a lot of stuff going out that would appeal to white, straight males. The fact that everyone else gets shafted sucks. I would love to see more works that are for demographics other than my own.

Re-reading what I wrote, I realize it sounds like I'm suggesting a kind of "fictional segregation", where each race and sexuality has their own fiction to consume exclusive to them. That's not at all what I mean, I'm just trying to point out where the issue comes from. Now, this has been true pretty much since fiction has existed, but the problems that this forum is so fond of discussing has only really been discussed relatively recently. This is greatly part to an evolution in society in realizing that, hey, white straight males are not the only type of people out there. But I think there's a big influence from the internet here as well. I think people seem to assume that a lack of a certain demographic within a work is immediately a form of bigotry. This is not the case, as I've explained earlier. It's just a natural thing that will happen in any creative work.

Now, another big issue is the misrepresentation of certain groups, women in videogames in particular being a big topic on the internet. Now, I can't deny there's a big issue there: women are certainly not presented as well as they should be. The reason this whole "Social Justice Warrior" thing has come up recently is the effect of the internet of people. Let's look at the Far Cry 4 box art controversy, simply because it's the most recent and the one that's probably most fresh on everyone's mind. Now, it's absolutely true, if the character on the cover is supposed to be the hero (which I thought it was evident he was not, but that's irrelevant), that is most certainly a racist piece of cover art. It's no longer in the "we're not including a certain race" territory, it's actively putting down asians. The normal reaction in face to face conversation to something like this would be "Hey, that's kind of racist. I don't like that, I won't buy the game", or something along those lines, followed by a short discussion, and then moving on.

But then the internet comes along, where instead of a couple sentences in the middle of a conversation that flows around different topics, your remark turns into a decently long forum post on a thread dedicated to the topic. For you, it's just that one post. Possibly someone will answer, and you'll then reply and that'll be that, but it's just a few hundred words at most. If it's something that becomes particularly engrained in on-line culture you might bring it up as an example when something similar happens a few months down the line, but you're really not talking about it that much.

Then, along comes one of these people complaining about "Social Justice Warriors". This person isn't racist or sexist or homophobic, necessarily, but they don't really care about social justice, they're just here to talk games. They might not really realize just how deep the issues are, or the fact that by saying Far Cry 4 looks racist you're not trying to say everyone who is excited about it is a bad person. They see your one post about this issue. But they also see the other hundred posts in the thread. And they see that there's threads like this all over the internet, with tonnes and tonnes of posts. You just said a thing and moved on, but to them it's everyone saying the thing, everywhere, and they clomp everyone who ever pointed out into a mass of people who they think just want to spoil their fun.

They don't. We "social justice warriors" love games as much as anyone else. Sure Dragon's Crown was quite sexist. I still enjoyed the hell out of it.

TL, DR:
The joint complaints of everyone on the internet make it look like everyone is completely outraged about something that very few, if any at all, people are really that offended by individually.
 

Uhura

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Aug 30, 2012
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SilverBullets000 said:
Thank you. I'm a lot less annoyed by the whole issue now that I know it happened around the same time. I was more upset by the idea that they were pursuing a new political boogeyman and playing follow the leader thanks to one game's controversy than the idea of him wanting diversity in the game. After all, I really thought it was click-bait at first. Stupid of me, but my mistake regardless and one I'll admit to.
I still think it's a little silly with Mario Kart, but I've already gone over all the reasons why with you, and I appreciate that we had the conversation civilly and heard each other out rather than breaking down and calling each other names over it. Thanks again.
Don't worry, it happens to everyone. Especially in threads that have controversial-ish subject matters (I have face palmed so hard reading some of the messages I have posted in the heat of the moment in earlier ism-threads.)
Yeah, it's nice to have a discussion in a thread like this without name calling and passive aggressive remarks. So thanks to you too :)
 

Bombiz

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CloudAtlas said:
Cowabungaa said:
From 11th century chivalric romance novels promoting ideal aristocratic behavior to 19th century British realism novels spreading the word about social inequalities, fiction has always had a profound impact on our culture. In literary form, theater and film. Why would videogames, being the humongous medium that they already are, be any different in that regard.
I mean, I understand where this reaction is coming from, why gamers get all touchy here, I really do, but come on, they need to think about what they're actually saying. Which is that being exposed to a certain environmental influence (entertainment) couldn't possibly have any signficant influence on anyone whatsoever... which is just ridiculous.
This is something that perplexes me very much. I get that then environment(i.e video games in this case) around a person effects there personality and beliefs. But how is it that showing sexualized content makes people more sexist but showing violent content doesn't make them more violent.

P.S
I'm not trying to convince any one of anything here. Just trying to understand something.

plz no flame
 

gargantual

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Thanks for all the input everyone. I admit I did show interest in hearing the responses that said, I don't like certain things in games but I recognize that others do. I could feel a bit irritation in some. Like oh here's another guy telling me the politics of these games isn't that large a concern. It just comes from disillusionment about mass media telling people what to be afraid of or ashamed of all the time even outside of games. Internet discussion used to be the place where such panics came to die, instead of invigorate and fester.

I realize what some article writers are trying to do, in garnering support for change in video games and respect for different tastes from the AAA arena by voicing concern of themes or imagery considered regressive.

but I still think there's a difference between loaded imagery, and racist propaganda or schlok (which has evidence of intent to insult another and significant power over the race being slandered}. People have to be able to 'go there' without immeditately being discounted for being a AAA action game and not the great modern film or novel. We know that bad game writing stems from writers being shoe-horned into the development process instead of laying foundations for setting, character and progression from the outset. Even Rhianna Pratchett essentially said that on these forums.

I still believe that fiction only holds as much power over the mind as one allows it, and is most powerful influentially in environments where participants aren't as exposed to its radical differences from their lives, borders and monotony. I said what I said based on the assumption that we're some heavily exposed jaded folks who can piece apart games and films from their influences, and cherry pick what we like and hate to death. A viewer like that....indoctrination is the LEAST of their worries. We've had parents we've had authority figures, a widespread and valuable education and all sorts of groundings.

I still believe that requests are sincere, more sincere than professional umbrage taking and that games could use a serious evolution in demographic outreach appeal, but are still 'requests' instead of 'orders'. Y'know...like clubber requests to a stage band or DJ at a show? "could you play this song?" "could you play that song?" the response being "Sure. I'll see if I can work it in. Maybe. or...If I have it but no promises." The performer does have to read and consider the crowd, but still works in their certain sounds and subgenres and controls the selection, and has to form their reputation for how hard or soft they're gonna go, and seek the right venues so that concerns of prudency don't have the final say over what art they chose to produce, display or be known for. For better or worse this has to be done, otherwise there's no spontaneity and they could replaced by an ipod.

I met a comic cover freelancer one day in a coffee shop (this was back when Borders bookstore still existed, and when I used to think 'man its about the people's request, you can't cross certain lines as a artist'. He vehemently said NO. You ALWAYS have choice in the matter. People don't openly admit they like dark wild shit, and some chaos. He said "You have to define your market, your boundaries and how low you're gonna go from the start, otherwise what people want any given day ends up ultimately being what you always produce and soon enough you're only drawing endless flowers, chibi-faces and family portraits.(nothing wrong with those) but when you decide to go hard, folks'll take it as a slap in the face. That's the difference between fiction creators who serve their creations more than their customers and bosses, and journalists or court sketch artists.

So I think the biggest problem with risque themes in games is mainly AAA studios still presume the dudebros are the entire market. They want to make META games in the spirit of WoW and CoD and are afraid to budget better, ease up on marketing expenses and just go....[HEADING=1]niche[/HEADING], which they REEEEEEEEAAAAAAAALLLLLLLLY should consider at this point. The gamers who don't take umbrage with the status quo in games are niche. As are the ones that do. I, like others respond differently to stuff that others probably wouldn't and I can accept that.

General audiences is a space that should only fit the most profound works of a generation, and only consumers decide whats so good everyone should get involved and has the most universal appeal. DOOM, Final Fantasy up to 10, MGS, Resi Evil up to 4 were successful 'niche' franchises. People look at cut up federales, vampires and hot babes in Robert Rodriguez films and say its 'Robert Rodriguez', instead of showing generic "what is this filth!?" responses. They cut him some slack because he made his bed in kitschy stories. The M rated action should try better to do the same and instead of casting their nets so wide on audiences, but making narrower investments and outreach for M rated controversial games, and expanding their palette for open material in the premiere section that'll benefit everybody.

And forward thinking games speak louder than forum wars. Journey, Transistor weren't born of industry politics, it was born out of genuine curiosity and people willing to invest in it. Gamespot before their site revamp had a special one-time video series called "what type of gamer are you?" Extrovert, Introvert, Completionist, Run n Gun etc. I looked at that stuff as essential research for games marketers, who if they only knew how diverse the market truly was, instead of being irritated at others choice of fun we'd have target marketing is as narrow as film and better games or better games review because of it, where we review devs work for what specific goals they set for themselves, instead of widespread presumptions about what their game should and shouldn't have.
 

Aaron Sylvester

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This is the last thread this whole issue needed - well done OP. It really sums up how much people over-react and sensationalize things through the roof.

But sadly it won't be the last thread and we're going to see lots more threads about sexism, misoginy, racism, LBGT issues, etc getting blown sky-high.

Remember folks, if the game isn't inclusive of your personal wishes/wants or causes you offense THEN THE DEVELOPERS OBVIOUSLY HATE YOU AND YOUR KIND! IT CAN ONLY MEAN THAT!
 

Vault101

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Aaron Sylvester said:
Remember folks, if the game isn't inclusive of your personal wishes/wants or causes you offense THEN THE DEVELOPERS OBVIOUSLY HATE YOU AND YOUR KIND! IT CAN ONLY MEAN THAT!
who said that?

oh yeah thats right no one

tell me, if somone says white people are privalliged do you take that personally too?
 

CloudAtlas

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weirdo8977 said:
CloudAtlas said:
Cowabungaa said:
From 11th century chivalric romance novels promoting ideal aristocratic behavior to 19th century British realism novels spreading the word about social inequalities, fiction has always had a profound impact on our culture. In literary form, theater and film. Why would videogames, being the humongous medium that they already are, be any different in that regard.
I mean, I understand where this reaction is coming from, why gamers get all touchy here, I really do, but come on, they need to think about what they're actually saying. Which is that being exposed to a certain environmental influence (entertainment) couldn't possibly have any signficant influence on anyone whatsoever... which is just ridiculous.
This is something that perplexes me very much. I get that then environment(i.e video games in this case) around a person effects there personality and beliefs. But how is it that showing sexualized content makes people more sexist but showing violent content doesn't make them more violent.

P.S
I'm not trying to convince any one of anything here. Just trying to understand something.

plz no flame
You might want to look at it in a more subtle way. Games don't make you a killer, sure, but nobody's saying that playing GTA will make you want to rape women either. It's more along the lines of when you're exposed to lots of sexist content, then that can inforce negative stereotypes about women that you already hold. And many boys already do hold such beliefs.
In a similar way, perhaps playing lots of violent games - where violence is contextualized in the story as the preferred method of solving problems - could change the attitudes towards violence as means to an end in an impressive youngling. (That said, I don't think there are actually many games that contextualize violence in such a way - for the most part, it's all pretty abstract. But the more realistic the visuals get in games, the more we will have to think about such questions.) Or like consuming too much Japanese entertainment can influence the behaviour and attitudes in a way that reflect what they're seeing in Manga and Anime all the time... if you're already predisposed to liking such stuff (if you weren't you probably wouldn't consume it in the first place); that's an influence I had the dubious pleasure witnessing first hand in my days of learning Japanese.


I've seen first hand what consuming too much Japanese entertainment can do to people (wh.
 

Aaron Sylvester

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Vault101 said:
Aaron Sylvester said:
Remember folks, if the game isn't inclusive of your personal wishes/wants or causes you offense THEN THE DEVELOPERS OBVIOUSLY HATE YOU AND YOUR KIND! IT CAN ONLY MEAN THAT!
who said that?

oh yeah thats right no one
People certainly behave like it. Nintendo deciding to fix an issue that unintentionally allowed same-sex relationships = Nintendo must hate homosexuals. Hitman: Absolution trailer having sexy nuns = IO Interactive are sexist misogynistic pigs. Tomb Raider having an implied rape scene = Crystal Dynamics are encouraging rape culture and misogyny.
If you haven't seen those kinds of reactions literally FLOODING all over these forums then I don't know where you've been.

Vault101 said:
tell me, if somone says white people are privalliged do you take that personally too?
I'm not white but I'm definitely privileged :)
 

CloudAtlas

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Aaron Sylvester said:
Vault101 said:
Aaron Sylvester said:
Remember folks, if the game isn't inclusive of your personal wishes/wants or causes you offense THEN THE DEVELOPERS OBVIOUSLY HATE YOU AND YOUR KIND! IT CAN ONLY MEAN THAT!
who said that?

oh yeah thats right no one
People certainly behave like it. Nintendo deciding to fix an issue that unintentionally allowed same-sex relationships = Nintendo must hate homosexuals. Hitman: Absolution trailer having sexy nuns = IO Interactive are sexist misogynistic pigs. Tomb Raider having an implied rape scene = Crystal Dynamics are encouraging rape culture and misogyny.
If you haven't seen those kinds of reactions literally FLOODING all over these forums then I don't know where you've been.
"Flooding forums"? If you think that, then you're seeing things that don't exist. Which would actually explain a lot. No need to feel too bad though; you're not the only one by far. It is an often observed pattern in these discussions: People claiming that people who care about inclusivity say (racist! sexist! misogynist!) and demand (censorship! no nudity! burkas!) all sorts of things they never actually do. You're the Don Quixotes of the gaming community: You're fighting against enemies that only (mostly) exist in your imagination.
 

Vegosiux

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CloudAtlas said:
"Flooding forums"? If you think that, then you're seeing things that don't exist. Which would actually explain a lot. No need to feel too bad though; you're not the only one by far. It is an often observed pattern in these discussions: People claiming that people who care about inclusivity say (racist! sexist! misogynist!) and demand (censorship! no nudity! burkas!) all sorts of things they never actually do. You're the Don Quixotes of the gaming community: You're fighting against enemies that only (mostly) exist in your imagination.
Have you, before you posted, stopped for a moment and thought about just how conceited this sounds, especially that last bit?

But okay, fine, call people "Don Quixotes of the gaming community" all you want, but these "Don Quixotes" are going to stick around, and there's nothing you are in a position to do about it. They have as much right to be here as you do, but whether or not you want to lose sleep and feel indignation over their presence is your prerogative. Just don't blame them for what you choose there.
 

Fdzzaigl

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Sorry, but just because problems are misrepresented and enlarged in the media and nitpicked about on internet forums doesn't mean you can dismiss them as simple sensationalism.

It's one thing to complain about Mass Effect being sexist because of an alien babe race and skintight suits. While the game series in itself has a whole variety of different roles for females and is generally liked by female gamers.

It's a whole other thing to file a valid complain about the lack of believable female characters in western games and the role of marketing departments creating self-fulfilling prophecies about the perceived sale numbers of such games. Only to see whole forums full of misogynist hate by certain male gamers who make statements like: "Females aren't capable of combat roles', or "They'd get raped anyway."

Many parallels can be found with the discussion about the ethnicity of main characters.

You have to realise that agendasetting in the media isn't a one way process. It happens through interaction with the public. In other words, the media will influence the public and sometimes misrepresent information, but the fact that topics about these problems surface does mean that they're alive somehow in that same public, who in turn influence the media to report about them.

You'd have a point if there were supreme monopolies on media content around, like Rupert Murdoch's. But overall that's still not the case on the internet, luckily.
 

CloudAtlas

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Vegosiux said:
CloudAtlas said:
"Flooding forums"? If you think that, then you're seeing things that don't exist. Which would actually explain a lot. No need to feel too bad though; you're not the only one by far. It is an often observed pattern in these discussions: People claiming that people who care about inclusivity say (racist! sexist! misogynist!) and demand (censorship! no nudity! burkas!) all sorts of things they never actually do. You're the Don Quixotes of the gaming community: You're fighting against enemies that only (mostly) exist in your imagination.
Have you, before you posted, stopped for a moment and thought about just how conceited this sounds, especially that last bit?

But okay, fine, call people "Don Quixotes of the gaming community" all you want, but these "Don Quixotes" are going to stick around, and there's nothing you are in a position to do about it. They have as much right to be here as you do, but whether or not you want to lose sleep and feel indignation over their presence is your prerogative. Just don't blame them for what you choose there.
Wait a minute... When I'm criticizing some sexist or racist element in a game, I - and people who generally share my views - am accused of making a fuss about nothing all the time. But me telling the very same people, the people who accuse me of complaining about nothing regularly, that they are often defending games against demands and criticism nobody (okay, rarely anybody) that nobody ever made is "conceited"? What about them?
 

Vegosiux

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CloudAtlas said:
Wait a minute... When I'm criticizing some sexist or racist element in a game, I - and people who generally share my views - am accused of making a fuss about nothing all the time. But me telling the very same people, the people who accuse me of complaining about nothing regularly, that they are often defending games against demands and criticism nobody (okay, rarely anybody) that nobody ever made is "conceited"? What about them?
Why yes, going "Oh hey, it's SJWs complaining about non-issues again" is conceited too. But that's on the wrong side of the popular opinion these days to begin with, so that base is covered.

And just to nitpick a little; I'm sure nobody means "It happens all the time, everywhere" when they talk about "flooding", it's hyperbole. I mean, I tend to be of the opinion that when people complain about the "prevalence" of sexualization and male pandering, they aren't discounting a significant enough amount of games in which that doesn't happen, they're more like saying "It happens a whole lot".

Sensationalism does factor into it though, because of how the entire thing is set up what with revenue from ads and all, and people tending to click "hot topics" a lot more than lukewarm ones. But that's an entirely different discussion (one we can't really have on any kind of community site that funds itself from advertising).
 

carnex

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One thing I would have to stress is for people to watch their language. In today's internet culture and social situation some words gained a huge power of shaming and condemnation and have to be used carefully. Two of those words are "sexist" and "racist". They have huge power of subject degradation therefor their use should be waged carefully.

Dragon's Crown is not sexist due to a simple fact that it has almost naked characters of both sexes. It might be pandering or uncomfortable for some due to some graphical representation but it does not degrade any sex. It does not portray anyone in degrading manner. It might be stupid too, but keep the weight of words in equilibrium with weight of problem. This is just one of many examples of things getting way to overblown.

And now for personal opinion.
I want sexist characters, and racist, and whatever. I want them to be of all races, sexes etc and against all races, sexes etc. I want characters to be interesting, real and not perfect. Ashley from Mass Effect was a racist piece of excrement and I left her to die because of it, but I want more characters like her! They are just one of many spices that make worlds feel real!
 

SilverBullets000

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Ultratwinkie said:
SilverBullets000 said:
Uhura said:
Mario Kart 8 discussion is a good example of this. The reviewer didn't call anyone racist.
No, but the OP insinuated that he did with his misleading thread title, which led to the waves of people calling the reviewer an idiot for something he didn't do. OP went back and fixed it, but he was too late.

And, from what I've seen in the article, the guy did a lot of beating around the bush. I don't have psychic powers or anything, but he might as well have said it. Then again, it's not like it was click-bait, right? I mean, we didn't have another issue about racism with another game just before then, right? Right?

Hating on "SJWs" is currently fashionable in this community.

(And the description SJW is applied very liberally to anyone who talks about race/gender/orientation etc. It doesn't seem to matter if they actually are radical in any way or not.)
I would hope so. They're generally reactionary prudes who overcompensate for their own insecurities, getting offended for others when the group in question had little to no problems with it in the first place. Most of the controversies kicked up by them are over petty grievances that make normal people scratch their head over the idea that someone was actually offended by it, trivializing the issue to the point that legitimate complaints are glazed over in favor of avoiding the SJWs in question.

Eh, I'm coming off as kind of an ass here, so I should bring up that at least the Mario 8 discussion brought up a couple of cool ideas to integrate ethnicities into the fold without shoe-horning them in. The black Toads and Delfino ideas in particular would work really well. They could argue that it wouldn't because they're a different species, but that would feel like even more stupid nitpicking to me.

But mostly, I'm just tired of the negativity of it all. They're fucking videogames. They won't appeal to everyone all the time. Yes, I agree that some should try, but trying to make them is the wrong way to go about it. Calling those that disagree racist or sexist is an even worse way to go about it. Especially in Mario Kart, where most of the drivers are either thinly veiled clones of other stereotyped human characters or fucking turtles. You know, something the reviewer didn't seem keen on bringing up.

OP: Yeah, I get what you're trying to say, but you might as well have said it to a vacuum. Those who agree will do so, and those that don't will completely ignore and pick apart your argument like it were a lego castle.
I never insinuated anything. I said "racist" in quotes, the same definition in affirmative action, and people went ape shit over nothing.

My title was "mario Kart 8 reviewer asks Nintendo for racial diversity." It has always been that. Escapists turned it into a shouting match against straw men of what they THOUGHT the problem was, as they always do.
Well, you got me then. It's not like I took a screen shot of the title thread for future reference, and I'm not about to insinuate that you're a liar. That would just be rude.

If this matter is trivial, why bother arguing against it? Why stop something meant to bring joy to someone else that's different? If its so trivial, why are people kicking up a fuss if it doesn't matter?
I missed the point when pointing out how asinine something is counts as kicking up a fuss about it, but it's been discussed to death in that game's case on your own thread. You act as if those who want it wouldn't turn around and complain about it the second they got it. Hell, you act as if the same sexism threads haven't been being passed around on the site for years.
Then again, I've said in another discussion on this thread that your thread did generate a couple of good ideas on how that could be implemented correctly, so at least it yielded something other than vitriol.

Nothing would therefore be lost if a black kid has a black character to identify with. Because it means nothing. It has no value to you, so you wouldn't care.
Mario, dude. Unless Mister Popo from Dragon Ball Z is your idea of a black man, you've missed the point of the argument completely.

Not like anyone cares about Nintendo anyway in an age where kids play on mobile devices. And since no one is buying the wii U I'd wager that any backlash over adding a character to a franchise that its target demographic doesn't care about is trivial.
Yes, alienating your already dwindling and hyper sensitive audience with a stereotype of a black person is such a good way to broaden their demographic. And wasn't there an article on this very site a good while back stating that developers were actually jumping ship from the mobile market because it was flooded with crap?

So therefore any backlash over adding black characters to anything is also trivial. That argument defeats itself. It defeats the very reason for being offended at requests for equality and only leaves racism as the only possible explanation.
Erm, what? Connected to your last paragraph: The Wii U is selling badly, therefore adding black people to anything is trivial. I assume anything meant the franchise in question, because otherwise, that's a nice little jump with your logic.
As for the part about racism, yes, that's obviously the only possible explanation. The fact that it's always brought up despite the context of the game has nothing to do with it, nor does the assumption that those not in 100% agreement with your views are racist or misogynistic.

If something is trivial, so is the backlash against it.

Its a flawed defensive argument that takes away any your own defenses and undermines your own stance.
Even when the same arguments in favor of more PC, constrictive game design have been being passed around for years? The mentality gets old and isn't as progressive as you'd think it would be. I'd argue that it's actually regressive, since it makes everyone bunker down in their own positions and makes creating a female/ethnic character hell for the developers.
There's a time and place. If you cry sexism or racism on every game, you trivialize the claim to the point that others will ignore you simply because you've done it before to other targets. You know, the reason the opposed are always claiming it's trivial in the first place.