I've worked out my problem with Skyrim.....do you agree?

[Vault101]

yes yes, I know a skyrim thread...AND alongside another one with the exact same subject matter...

Now I accept that I may not have actually played enough for this to be a vaild argument

so I didnt expect much from Skyrim after my experience with Oblivion, but I will say that skyrim is ALOT more convincing and easyer to get into/drawn in, and its very easy to sink so much time into (which unfortunatly...or fortunatly I cant do right now....fucking work)

but anyway, bottom line is I like it a whole lot better than Oblivion, and hopefully enough to see it through (though the Idea of sinking so many hours into it is kind of scary)

but here's my problem

its the "role playing" aspect, I couldnt exactally explain it before, but now I would describe it as there is no way to "express" who my chrachter is..there doesnt rally seem to be a dialouge systm....or if there is the choices are very limited.....my charachter could be kind and polite...or a snarky smartass, or just as ass...but it doesnt matter acording to the game

ok, you could argue there are actions...actions spak louder than words...true mabye, but then I feel like theres no REASON to do anything...why go into the cave? why am I wansring around adventuring?

or the quests, so far its "can you go hre and do this for me? THANKS!" but why? the charachters dont know who I am..why ar they telling me to do things? why the hell would they trust me?

and it all seems to go back to that one thing...its like everyones aware its a fantasy RPG and thats "just what you do"

and I supsose this is aparently how the elder scrolls is (and should be) and I supose fans wouldnt have t any other way

but yeah, bottom line I still feel very disconected from whats going on, as my charachters doesnt seem to have a personal stake in events..

so what do you think? dose it get better? do you prefer it this way? or am I just completley wrong?

 

[Zhukov]

Yeah, that's pretty much what all Bethesda games are like. Character interaction, dialogue and role-play don't really get much attention. I'm not sure if it's by design or if they just don't know how to do that stuff.

And no, it doesn't get better. About the closest you can come to roleplaying is refusing to do quests you don't agree with. Occasionally there'll be a Fable-style choice between a good action or an evil one.

Personally, it doesn't bother me that much. Not defending the game, it's just that my issues with Skyrim lie elsewhere.

 

[Smooth Operator]

Well yes as far as characters go TES was always very weak, people either want to kill you or not, and that is the full range of their moral compass.

Even when you are supposed to pick the big war sides you hear all sorts of things how good or bad the other side is, but when you meet the main guys you find nothing but empty potato heads, they give you nothing that would indicate any sort of direction or reasoning just blabbering paper bags and then let your imagination fill in the gaps.

 

[Wolfram23]

Those Misc quests are usually pretty odd like that. The bounty ones make sense, and a few others, but sometimes it's like... uh? No. However I think most of the "main" quest types I've done were pretty good and not totally "random" like that. Except the start of the thieves guild. WTF. Secret society my ass.

 

[Kyle1527]

The only time when Skyrim get's boring is when you COMPLETELY run out of content to do. For example, I have finished every single quest the game has to offer and now I have nothing to do but start a new character.

 

[Jasper Jeffs]

I agree with the OP, Skyrim's story is set up so that you're playing a role, not really role playing. There's a huge difference. It makes no sense that as a dragonborn you're running around villages helping random people, it takes out the immersion. Bethesda did a poor job of giving the main questline any form of pacing. I've said it before in another thread, every quest is either "QUICK WE MUST HURRY" or "WE MUST MAKE HASTE"; there's no in-between. It's retarded that some guy has been waiting for me in a cave for like 10 years whilst I fuck around getting married, or the end of the world has been putting itself on hold because I'm gathering a rare strain of Nirnroot. The story might not necessarily be bad, but from a potential roleplayers' perspective it's poorly handled.

What annoys me personally is how you're the exception to everything, as I said earlier it makes it so that you're just playing a role. You're the international winner of manly shouting, not only does that lock you into a single role, it also completely negates any other role you may want to play. What if you just wanna play as a simple adventurer wandering from village to village? Nah, you're a dragonborn. What if you just wanna play as a- dragonborn. It's fucking boring.

I've still played Skyrim for 100 hours (bored of it now, though) and had fun with it, but it lacks the role playing part of RPG and has many flaws. The only thing I can really praise it for at this point is its interesting and varied map.

 

[Frostwhisper21]

Agreed on the story. But this is pretty much a problem with most RPGs (Especially MMOs). Mass Effect, for example, actually gives you some sort of basis for your actions since you're part of an elite military unit, so the context is there. But in these open world RPGs? You're right, it feels stupid that people will trust me to do these jobs when i'm just another random, generic stranger.


The part that took the immersion out of the game for me, however, wasn't that I had to be a Dragonborn. it was that it was barely acknowledged that I was a dragonborn. Only during the main quest or when I absorbed a dragon's souls was it even mentioned. That and when you beat the game the guards sometimes acknowledge you as dovakihn.

Really, when you have random quest givers talking like you're a pathetic nobody, an easy target to ambush, or just plain don't know who you are, it really detracts from the immersion. Especially if you're supposed to be the savior of the world, or the first in centuries.

 

[Vault101]

Agreed on the story. But this is pretty much a problem with most RPGs (Especially MMOs). Mass Effect, for example, actually gives you some sort of basis for your actions since you're part of an elite military unit, so the context is there. But in these open world RPGs? You're right, it feels stupid that people will trust me to do these jobs when i'm just another random, generic stranger.


The part that took the immersion out of the game for me, however, wasn't that I had to be a Dragonborn. it was that it was barely acknowledged that I was a dragonborn. Only during the main quest or when I absorbed a dragon's souls was it even mentioned. That and when you beat the game the guards sometimes acknowledge you as dovakihn.

Really, when you have random quest givers talking like you're a pathetic nobody, an easy target to ambush, or just plain don't know who you are, it really detracts from the immersion. Especially if you're supposed to be the savior of the world, or the first in centuries.

not sure I would compare mass effect with skyrim, they are on VERY far ends of the "freedom vs focus" spectrum...but fair point

anyway even if I compare it to a game Like fallout 3, now regardless of weather or not you like it (and I'd be the first to say its full of flaws... but its a good example because its a bethedesa game)

that game I was TOTALLY into, because my charachter was an actual presance,and role playing as a smart, good hearted girl came so easyly, I was really attachted to her and I actually cared about what was going on..I knew WHY I was wandering the wasteland, everythng I did had some kind of motivation other than "Im just a standard rpg hero"

now I admit that the fact I absolutly love the fallout universe might have helped, and also it suffers from "good and bad" and being bad actually doesnt make much sense other than "Im a sociopathic asshole" AND eather way it will shoehorn you into the same general coarse of actions, and it does suffer some of that same bethedesa stuff

I dont know exactally what it was, I think dialgue helps ALOT, I can interact with the world better, and I can feel a part of it

 

[Beryl77]

Something similar bothers me about it. Your character isn't really limited to do what he can do and become. He can become the archmage, leader of the companions and thieves guild leader etc. For example, If you're a warrior, you shouldn't be able to join the mages guild. That's what a second playthrough is for.
Also, You can basically skill everything up, you don't have to specialize. You can just play stealthy but it's easy to change that in the middle of the playthrough and become a battlemage. I like rpg's where you have to choose something and then stick to that, unless you want a useless character at the end.
Overall it's still one of the best games from this year but Bethesda misses some of the more important points of an RPG for me.

 

[gigastrike]

Sounds like the hype finally died down.

 

[danyy2009]

You know what's the real problem with skyrim? Is that if you bought it for the ps3, you got a broken game which you cannot play after a while.

 

[Vault101]

Sounds like the hype finally died down.

I didnt expect much from skyrim..this is what I expected..hence why I put it on my christmas list (afterwards I was unsure, but I got it so yeah)

You know what's the real problem with skyrim? Is that if you bought it for the ps3, you got a broken game which you cannot play after a while.

what happens? I havnt had many problems so far...

 

[bobfish92]

There is a very simple solution to this;

Read up on the basics of the lore - They are an interesting read.
With your newfound knowledge, write a short backstory. Put your character in some imaginary situations, develop their personallity. Then, start the game with them. You know why they are there, why they tried to get into skyrim, their general personallity and such. You might walk up to a cave and look at what is around it. Oh? Skeletons and massive pools of blood? NOPE. But say, ore? or webs?

The fact is they are not bioware games - You can't make your character along the way (Well, you can, but not to the same degree.) Its far better when you're starting out to already HAVE a persona to play - Just make sure what you create is fun for you. Maybe you like challenge - Then play with a physically weak character - They have to find ways around things. Maybe play an alcoholic, whose primary goal is to fuel his problem. When he raided a good place, he'll stumble around happy, but it will wear off, it'll go down hill and you'll need to start stealing.

For example (My first character was a "do everything, exploit mechanics" character, my second is a hunter, with the HUD completely turned off and no fast travel. He won't touch the main story, and he'll only go into a dungeon if he has a contract that means he will be paid. Dragons? Run the hell away. Could he beat them? Easily. But its a dragon, and he is realistic.

 

[danyy2009]

Basicly this: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HH_2Oq87TAQ
And even worse after your save file gets bigger and bigger,
and so far there is no fix in the horizon.

 

[Frostwhisper21]

Agreed on the story. But this is pretty much a problem with most RPGs (Especially MMOs). Mass Effect, for example, actually gives you some sort of basis for your actions since you're part of an elite military unit, so the context is there. But in these open world RPGs? You're right, it feels stupid that people will trust me to do these jobs when i'm just another random, generic stranger.


The part that took the immersion out of the game for me, however, wasn't that I had to be a Dragonborn. it was that it was barely acknowledged that I was a dragonborn. Only during the main quest or when I absorbed a dragon's souls was it even mentioned. That and when you beat the game the guards sometimes acknowledge you as dovakihn.

Really, when you have random quest givers talking like you're a pathetic nobody, an easy target to ambush, or just plain don't know who you are, it really detracts from the immersion. Especially if you're supposed to be the savior of the world, or the first in centuries.

not sure I would compare mass effect with skyrim, they are on VERY far ends of the "freedom vs focus" spectrum...but fair point

anyway even if I compare it to a game Like fallout 3, now regardless of weather or not you like it (and I'd be the first to say its full of flaws... but its a good example because its a bethedesa game)

that game I was TOTALLY into, because my charachter was an actual presance,and role playing as a smart, good hearted girl came so easyly, I was really attachted to her and I actually cared about what was going on..I knew WHY I was wandering the wasteland, everythng I did had some kind of motivation other than "Im just a standard rpg hero"

now I admit that the fact I absolutly love the fallout universe might have helped, and also it suffers from "good and bad" and being bad actually doesnt make much sense other than "Im a sociopathic asshole" AND eather way it will shoehorn you into the same general coarse of actions, and it does suffer some of that same bethedesa stuff

I dont know exactally what it was, I think dialgue helps ALOT, I can interact with the world better, and I can feel a part of it

Yeah i should have clarified: I forgot to add "side quests" in my first paragraph. The main story in RPGs tends to always have a motivation of sorts, but the side quests is what breaks the flow and immersion. Having the savior of Skyrim play courier for a mage, for example, was silly. But in Mass Effect most of the optional quests had some sort of sensible motivation and usually acknowledge who Shepard is.

I think Fallout just felt easier to roleplay in... I certianly got more involved into that world than in any other. I always was of the mindset "i do all this to survive in a wasteland", so regardless of the quest it generally followed that train of thought.

 

[omega 616]

Bethesda did a poor job of giving the main questline any form of pacing.

To be fair, this is a flaw of open-world, non-linear games in general.
In Fallout 3: "Quick you must rescue your father from Vault 112 !!"
It took me ages to do that, because I was too busy getting sidetracked and doing all the side missions, or just simply exploring (I made that sucker wait).
Did I fail the quest? No.
Did it upset pacing and/or flow? Well, yes, but the developers can't really do much about that.

If quests had time limits, these games would get very annoying very quickly.

not really dead rising games have a time limit, don't do a quest in the time allotted then tough, you missed it. It makes you prioritize what is important and what you can do without, it also adds a sense of pressure ... rushing to get to a mission or quest before it ends.

I think it adds replay value aswell 'cos you can do the quests you missed the first time or mix it up or whatever you like to alter the time line or outcome.

 

[JayElleBee]

Same. I really enjoyed roleplaying in Oblivion, but it just doesn't... work in Skyrim. I wanted to create a young, naive Breton mage, who spends most of his time rooting out books and collecting new and interesting artifacts and alchemical ingredients.

But the character creator forces me to create a Breton who looks like he's forty (there goes the young and naive bit), any souvenirs I bring back have to go into a chest, because when I try to place them in my house they just end up back where I dropped them when I return (there goes collecting things, save for books). That just leaves me with... a generic Breton mage.

I really enjoy the game mechanics and the world is just... ridiculously pretty, but I dunno. It doesn't feel as substantial when I have no emotional connection to my character. :/ I can make up his thought processes and personality in my mind just fine, but I can't actually play as him.

 

[NeutralDrow]

I killed the evil old woman who ran the Riften orphanage. Afterwards, I would make a point once every few in-game days to cook bowls of beef stew and apple cabbage soup, buy or steal sweet rolls, cheese, and bread, then put them on the table at the orphanage.

Once, in the wild, I came across a Nord cannibal who'd just killed a random elven woman. I slashed him to death with my bare claws, then dragged the woman's corpse over to a nearby shrine (Zenithar, unfortunately), arranged her in a dignified manner, and placed flowers around her. Another time, I was tracking down a Stormcloak courier to steal his documents. I didn't plan to kill him, but when I found him, he was on the losing end of a fight with a frost troll. I killed the troll, stuck some of the Stormcloak's arrows in its corpse, and laid his bow next to him.

And because my Khajiit is a generally goodhearted, but occasionally jaded and arrogant bastard, I managed to annoy the Daedric Prince of Madness by not responding to him. Then I took a cannibalistic coven of Namira worshipers and arranged their clawed corpses in disgraceful poses all over her shrine.

I'm not saying everyone should do things like this, or even that I'm not occasionally a very weird individual. I'm just explaining why I can't commiserate on the "lack of RPing" front.

 

[Vrach]

TES is kind of a clean slate. RP wise, it's what you make of it. Personally, it's always been my favourite RPG to RP in, just thinking up the backstory as I go. Yeah, the dialogue system isn't much and I don't think it's meant to be. Frankly, while something like ME2 gives you more options, by having those options (and having them be excellently executed), you're bound by them. TES, I just ignore what my dialogue options are (as most of the time there really aren't any) and imagine my own little background to go with my character.

 

[Mylinkay Asdara]

Bethesda did a poor job of giving the main questline any form of pacing.

To be fair, this is a flaw of open-world, non-linear games in general.
In Fallout 3: "Quick you must rescue your father from Vault 112 !!"
It took me ages to do that, because I was too busy getting sidetracked and doing all the side missions, or just simply exploring (I made that sucker wait).
Did I fail the quest? No.
Did it upset pacing and/or flow? Well, yes, but the developers can't really do much about that.

If quests had time limits, these games would get very annoying very quickly.

Yeah, but at least in that case your father was in a suspended state of sorts and not in any particular danger on a time line (i.e. he wasn't being held for ransom by the drugged up raider crew or hanging from a rope over a pit of lava, etc.)

I killed the evil old woman who ran the Riften orphanage. Afterwards, I would make a point once every few in-game days to cook bowls of beef stew and apple cabbage soup, buy or steal sweet rolls, cheese, and bread, then put them on the table at the orphanage.

Once, in the wild, I came across a Nord cannibal who'd just killed a random elven woman. I slashed him to death with my bare claws, then dragged the woman's corpse over to a nearby shrine (Zenithar, unfortunately), arranged her in a dignified manner, and placed flowers around her. Another time, I was tracking down a Stormcloak courier to steal his documents. I didn't plan to kill him, but when I found him, he was on the losing end of a fight with a frost troll. I killed the troll, stuck some of the Stormcloak's arrows in its corpse, and laid his bow next to him.

And because my Khajiit is a generally goodhearted, but occasionally jaded and arrogant bastard, I managed to annoy the Daedric Prince of Madness by not responding to him. Then I took a cannibalistic coven of Namira worshipers and arranged their clawed corpses in disgraceful poses all over her shrine.

I'm not saying everyone should do things like this, or even that I'm not occasionally a very weird individual. I'm just explaining why I can't commiserate on the "lack of RPing" front.

This is impressive (I tend this way myself) - however, it does somewhat illustrate the point that you have to go out of your way (outside of what the game gives you to work with from npcs and situations) to actually role-play beyond having your role to play.

As for some thoughts of my own: I am on my first time, still, and I picked a Nord who loves being a Nord for just this reason. I anticipated the open-world issues and decided to go with the flow of what I was likely to get in terms of motivation and do my best to make more of it. I've been happy so far - although I do dislike - and I am not saying this is wrong, because it certainly adds to playtime and such - the fact that I can walk into any given group and become the leader just because I happen to be the player. Case in point: The mages guild. I have... like, 20 skill value in every school of magic - I just don't care for magic and I'm a Nord and I'm not really about it for this character anyway - but I am still the damn Archmage. Why? Because I'm the player. That's stupid.