Jack Ma and Elon Musk are worried about population collapse

[McElroy]

Okay, I'm updating my top 3 worst reasons to not have children. In no particular order they are "world already has enough", "climate change", and "it's the economy that wants children and I don't like the economy".

You apparently aren't noticing that overpopulation/overconsumption and climate change go hand in hand with one another. Dealing with the first will go a long way towards dealing with the second.

Please don't tell me you one of those people who thinks the Arctic melting is just a fluke or something that has nothing to do with how we've been pumping carbon into the air like crazy.

Dude, I replied to you with what I think about this already. What do you think "dealing with overpopulation" is? Letting your people grow old while you then need countries that don't give a rat's ass about overpopulation to fill your workforce is a bad investment in multiple ways as well as cultural disintegration. You mentioned controlled population decline earlier, well, for countries like Germany, Norway, my native Finland, and others I can't be bothered to find demographics for right now controlled population decline would be to get the fertility rate to 1.8-1.9 depending on immigration figures. There's a mighty difference compared to the 1.4 we have here currently.

If the dwindling populations of developed countries have to be kept on a certain level anyway because of the workforce, having fewer kids serves no good purpose. Another thing we see happening are childfree folks psyching themselves to be guilt free consumers too -- another disservice. And of course, for most people choosing to not have children the 3 reasons I mentioned are just another way of saying they don't want to, which is fine on its own but claiming it's a good deed is not. When it comes to the environment, future generations won't be thanking us for a lot of reasons. Not having kids here where their potential is the best won't be a cause for applause either.

 

[Erttheking]

I'd love to live in this fantasy world for just a few minutes. I'm honestly not sure how you function in reality where the rest of us exist though. I'd ask you to provide a single source, but we both know you don't have any evidence to back it up.

With the European refugee crisis it are mostly women welcoming immigrants of muslim countries with open arms(both actual and voting for pro-immigration political parties) with feminists and the left putting them under the same umbrella of other professional victims of the 'patriarchal tyranny' as muslims would somehow support gay rights or gender equality. This is so ridiculous that it's a good example of how ideologically blinded they are. It's also a fact corporations want open borders and are staunchingly pro-immigration. You can look it up.

In the US? They're, as a group, better than white Christians, particularly evangelicals.

With this example I was largely talking about Europe but the U.S. sees similar demographic changes with Spanish soon becoming the most spoken language, and the severe social unrest and extreme polarization in the U.S. isn't exactly a secret either.

Nothing like a good dose of racism and xenophobia backed up by nothing except rhetoric, I guess. Truly part of a balanced breakfast.

No racism at all as I never claimed any ethnicity is either superior or inferior. But what is racist about the reality of a population in decline when muslims(in Europe) are the only ones with higher birth rates and thinking muslims will support democratic values or gender equality is a pipe dream of the pro-immigration left?

And absolutely none of those things are caused by minorities. They're, by and large, caused by those white males you were claiming to be oppressed earlier (as white men make up the largest part of the economic top 1%, well out of proportion to population demographics).

I was talking about the oligarchy which 2% aren't exactly representative of the common folk.

You're free to leave and emigrate to somewhere else at any time. Don't let the door hit you on the way out

No.

General debate etiquette is that you provide sources, you don?t demand people go get them for you. It makes your argument look weak.

 

[Agema]

It's why corporations in the west are also so staunchly pro-feminist b/c...

No, corporations in the West are feminist because they understand that women make valauble employees just like men do. Thus in order to maximise their access to talent (and thus their own benefit), better to make sure 50% of the potential workforce feel valued and happy to work within their organisation.

They also like immigration independently for much the same reason: greater access to workers.

With the European refugee crisis it are mostly women welcoming immigrants of muslim countries with open arms (both actual and voting for pro-immigration political parties) with feminists and the left putting them under the same umbrella of other professional victims of the 'patriarchal tyranny' as muslims would somehow support gay rights or gender equality. This is so ridiculous that it's a good example of how ideologically blinded they are. It's also a fact corporations want open borders and are staunchingly pro-immigration. You can look it up.

I think you are doing quite a lot of putting 2+2 together and getting 5.

Women are less likely to vote right wing. But that's for lots of reasons, of which the most important are they tend to be more economically left-wing and see government action in a more favourable light than men.

However, an attitude tending more towards the greater good than "I got mine; fuck you" may well make women more tolerant of immigration. Tying it up with some weird feminist ideological contortion seems pretty unnecessary.

 

[Fieldy409_v1legacy]

It really makes me laugh to be honest how the enemy of the left or feminists in particular is the straight white male who is having less and less children and as a result is aging and declining in numbers while muslims are their best friends. I truly wonder what the left thinks muslim's affinity is with gays, lesbians or feminism in general when demographics start to turn into their favor. I guess we'll find out in the coming years.

The left doesn't think Islam has an affinity with gays or feminism. We simply still have empathy for people we disagree with. Is that so difficult to understand?

The left will simply defend the weak(minorities) being picked on by the strong, and outside of majority muslim countries the muslims are another persecuted minority.

We just want a live and let live world where everybody gets along.

 

[Hawki]

The left doesn't think Islam has an affinity with gays or feminism. We simply still have empathy for people we disagree with.

...mate, have you seen these forums, or, like, paid any attention to the state of discourse? "Empathy" isn't the word I'd use for disagreements.

Leaning left myself, I can empathize with Muslims. I cannot empathize with Islam.

The left will simply defend the weak(minorities) being picked on by the strong, and outside of majority muslim countries the muslims are another persecuted minority.

"Persecuted minority."

Okay, sure. By the strictest definition of the word ("to harass or punish in a manner designed to injure, grieve, or afflict") Muslims are persecuted in the West due to harassment. But when I think of "Muslim persecution," I'm going to think of the Ughyr, Palestinians, or Rohingya first. And also be greatful that I'm not in a majority Muslim country where I'd know actual persecution.

"I'd rather get stoned and then commit adultery, rather than getting stoned for committing adultery."

 

[Eacaraxe_v1legacy]

General debate etiquette is that you provide sources, you don?t demand people go get them for you. It makes your argument look weak.

Hi! I saw that you are attempting to have a conversation about neoliberalism, immigration policy, and the real economic impact of immigration and employment policy to workers, both immigrant and domestic! Do you need assistance?

https://www.splcenter.org/20130218/close-slavery-guestworker-programs-united-states

https://www.epi.org/publication/what-labor-market-changes-have-generated-inequality-and-wage-suppression-employer-power-is-significant-but-largely-constant-whereas-workers-power-has-been-eroded-by-policy-actions/

https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2018/apr/13/american-economy-wage-suppression-how-it-works

https://www.pbs.org/newshour/economy/how-trump-has-already-changed-migrant-worker-programs

https://www.huffpost.com/entry/trump-h-1b_b_5890d86ce4b0522c7d3d84af

https://www.politico.com/magazine/story/2016/09/trump-clinton-immigration-economy-unemployment-jobs-214216

https://prospect.org/article/can-revamped-farmworker-visa-system-prevent-abuses

https://www.epi.org/publication/labor-day-2019-immigration-policy/

 

[Thaluikhain]

Okay, sure. By the strictest definition of the word ("to harass or punish in a manner designed to injure, grieve, or afflict") Muslims are persecuted in the West due to harassment. But when I think of "Muslim persecution," I'm going to think of the Ughyr, Palestinians, or Rohingya first.

Yeah, and there's lots of actual warzones where there's more shootings than the US. So?

 

[McElroy]

The left doesn't think Islam has an affinity with gays or feminism. We simply still have empathy for people we disagree with. Is that so difficult to understand?

The left will simply defend the weak(minorities) being picked on by the strong, and outside of majority muslim countries the muslims are another persecuted minority.

We just want a live and let live world where everybody gets along.

I don't think this is the main issue at stake -- once people have settled in your country legally you'd expect them to respect local laws and customs and expect the locals to treat them respectfully. Conflict often arises, of course.

But we have to look back a bit. Why did they want to leave their homes and come here in the first place? If their impact on our society is negative in multiple ways, why take them in at all? It's true that nobody deserves to suffer, but what is the right course of action in a fight against something that we will never run out of?

 

[Eacaraxe_v1legacy]

Why did they want to leave their homes and come here in the first place?

In most cases since the outbreak of World War II, we bombed their countries into the stone age and/or overthrew democratically-elected governments to install puppet dictators on behalf of private corporations?

 

[McElroy]

Why did they want to leave their homes and come here in the first place?

In most cases since the outbreak of World War II, we bombed their countries into the stone age and/or overthrew democratically-elected governments to install puppet dictators on behalf of private corporations?

Of course, God bless. Without immediate reasons you'll be sent back, however.

 

[Eacaraxe_v1legacy]

Of course, God bless. Without immediate reasons you'll be sent back, however.

That immediate reason being economic or political refugees make excellent scabs for unskilled/semi-skilled job positions, and immigrant labor is an excellent source of wage suppression if arranged as indentured servitude through work visa abuse.