Hah, I like these comments much better than the "lol Japan" and the other hivemind stuff as mentioned. I feel like I myself harped too much on the whole "yes, Japan does have a problem of sexism, but..."
The problem is, while I would like to say, "it's just this guy", it's kinda like the Bible Belt thing. Japan has diversity just like any other country, it has completely backward idiots, and it has radically progressive people. It's pretty obvious though that Japan has just as much prejudice towards women workers as any Western country, their mentality seems a lot like Eastern Europe generally. And this definitely isn't the only conservative nutbag in the country. The darn folks keep getting voted in! Like Ishihara. Why do.. I just... ugh. Stupid racist sexist Ishihara.
Japan has problems. Everywhere has problems. Let's also not assume to know how many Japanese people think this way.
As for child-rape comics: Yes, Japan has them, and they are disgusting. I once sat next to a skeezy businessman on the subway who was reading such a comic, which features a woman with breasts bigger than her head, wearing a torn schoolgirl uniform, in the most improbable bondage you can imagine. On the other side of the businessman sat a girl who was about 10 years old. She looked annoyed at having to sit next to this moron, but she didn't move. It wasn't a big enough deal to make her give up her seat.
I don't like that shit like that happens sometimes, but should it be outlawed? I dunno. Considering that the rape rate in Japan is 1/20th that of the USA (according to the website Crisis Connection), maybe such comics aren't actually harmful. Or that allowing them is less harmful than outlawing them, anyway.
I don't think you can take people's expressions (art, music, literature, etc) in isolation and then decide that this culture is wonderful or that culture is sick and depraved. Sometimes art is just a way to exorcise demons of the subconscious.
Thank you so much for that, Lilith. I've met too many people that I love and respect who say things like, "Well, Ishihara's bad, but we need someone strong to lead the country!" AARGH! NOOOOO! I know Japan has ineffectual leaders and a government that is dysfunctional (just like America), but A FASCIST LEADER WILL ONLY MAKE THINGS WORSE!
"And if you keep getting these depictions of women taking the lead, matters soon develop in a homosexual direction" Hate to say it, but I love a lady that takes charge. Maybe not 100% of the time, but it certainly brings out the complete opposite of homosexuality in me.
Actually, it is shocking. It's like being in support of the gleeful killing and painful deaths in Manhunt whilst and then taking issue with the swearing in Conker's Bad Fur Day. That's an absurd stance to take. And I must say, this thing you're doing, where you can rap about art objectively UNLESS sex is involved* is pretty much the same feat of compartmentalized thinking that allows censorship like this to happen.
Oi motherfucking vey.
*And you DID just shit your brain. You've gone and suggested that someone who with likes rape porn must be so against real women's empowerment that ze would feel the need to control the range of actions that they can be portrayed as taking in fiction.
Just for the record, what they're saying in the minutes makes total sense from a Japanese POV.
TL;DR, a very common attitude in Japan is that sexual activity has two strictly defined roles. "Active" and "passive", which usually means "male" and "female". Only one partner can be active. If a woman is active, the man has to be passive, etc. So that's why they're scared that aggressive women in comics will turn boys gay - because many Japanese men feel emasculated by aggressive women.
http://aramatheydidnt.livejournal.com/491421.html
"Seiji told me much later that dating me made him feel like he was gay, because I was active in bed, and he couldn?t connect that with anything except masculinity."
And yes, I know if you read the comments on that post you'll see dozens of people going "LOL that's not true at all!" but trust me, for the most part it's accurate information. Obviously no generalizations encapsulate all people of a cultural group, and sexuality's always a tricky topic...but it is fairly accurate, yes.
Oh, and for anyone who was asking - I'm pretty sure the image at the beginning is from a doujinshi (fan comic) for a series called "Prince of Tennis". It's a series about...well, tennis. Not about guys strapping kittens to their nipples.
As for child-rape comics: Yes, Japan has them, and they are disgusting. I once sat next to a skeezy businessman on the subway who was reading such a comic, which features a woman with breasts bigger than her head, wearing a torn schoolgirl uniform, in the most improbable bondage you can imagine. On the other side of the businessman sat a girl who was about 10 years old. She looked annoyed at having to sit next to this moron, but she didn't move. It wasn't a big enough deal to make her give up her seat.
I don't like that shit like that happens sometimes, but should it be outlawed? I dunno. Considering that the rape rate in Japan is 1/20th that of the USA (according to the website Crisis Connection), maybe such comics aren't actually harmful. Or that allowing them is less harmful than outlawing them, anyway.
I don't think you can take people's expressions (art, music, literature, etc) in isolation and then decide that this culture is wonderful or that culture is sick and depraved. Sometimes art is just a way to exorcise demons of the subconscious.
"breasts bigger than her head"
That does not sound very child like to me or something a p@edo would be into, as by definition any sign of boobs is a turn off to them (but I'm no expert on this). The reading it openly on a train, I'm with you there. Liked your comments about the amount of reported rape, but unfortunately it is assumed that the statistics are such, due to under reporting, etc
Joe Cobler said:
kyoodle said:
A culture where porn ranges from 'she was asking for it' to 'raped by demons' objects to women taking the lead in sexual encounters?!
Actually, it is shocking. It's like being in support of the gleeful killing and painful deaths in Manhunt whilst and then taking issue with the swearing in Conker's Bad Fur Day. That's an absurd stance to take. And I must say, this thing you're doing, where you can rap about art objectively UNLESS sex is involved* is pretty much the same feat of compartmentalized thinking that allows censorship like this to happen.
Oi motherfucking vey.
*And you DID just shit your brain. You've gone and suggested that someone who with likes rape porn must be so against real women's empowerment that ze would feel the need to control the range of actions that they can be portrayed as taking in fiction.
Thank you. Gaming communities are quite quick to point out that committing all sorts of violent crimes against virtual people is not problem at all and that there should be no controls on such material. They then get all up in arms about virtual depictions of sex. Just another case of how people become illogical when it comes to things involving sex.
Don't get me wrong I find most of this material as offensive as others, but it does not stop me finding the inconsistency amusing.
THANK YOU! Beat me to it. Yeah, I've lived in Japan for 16 years, and I've never seen a vending machine that sold underwear, girls' or otherwise. I have heard that there was at least one such vending machine outside a porno shop in Tokyo about 20 years ago. I'm pretty sure a Western reporter (who probably didn't know Japanese) heard about it at a party and wrote an article that was all "JAPANESE VENDING MACHINES SELL LITTLE GIRLS' PANTIES!"
This is something that happens over and over and over to Japan: people who think "Japan is wacky" come here and write articles and blog posts that confirm their view, and thereby reinforce the "Japan is wacky" meme.
(I did come across a vending machine that sold hot fried food this past weekend, though! That was awesome!)
Live crab vending machines that give you a refund if the crab has dies by the time you purchase. Those I am not impressed with, but that is a vegy thing. I should not be surprised about those when one of their delicacies, is to bring a lobster to the table with it's thorax cooked and open for you to eat from. The kicker is, to show that it is fresh they put the rest of the intact and living body on the dish next to it, so you can see it going through it's death throes while you tuck into it. That I find as disgusting as any sexual stuff they are know for.
Finally the cross I bear is getting more attention. For a second there, I was worried this issue would stay confined to sankaku complex and various obscure blogs. Yes, Japan's censors are stupid, their ideas are stupid, and the censorship bills passed are stupid.
Just as drawings of lolis aren't going to magically turn people into pedophiles, drawings also can't magically turn people gay. Especially not drawings with sexually aggressive women. (I dunno about you, but I love sexually aggressive women. I wish a woman would come and be sexually aggressive towards me right now!) Any laws giving the government a right to restrict what kinds of drawings go out on the market is a law against free speech, and free speech is sacred. It is wrong to restrict any kind of free speech whatsoever unless that speech directly affects the rights of another individual. America doesn't get this, and now it's becoming increasingly apparent that Japan doesn't get this either. Thankfully, the bill isn't a law on what can or can't be drawn. But I feel like Japan is heading down that road.
Hah, I like these comments much better than the "lol Japan" and the other hivemind stuff as mentioned. I feel like I myself harped too much on the whole "yes, Japan does have a problem of sexism, but..."
The problem is, while I would like to say, "it's just this guy", it's kinda like the Bible Belt thing. Japan has diversity just like any other country, it has completely backward idiots, and it has radically progressive people. It's pretty obvious though that Japan has just as much prejudice towards women workers as any Western country, their mentality seems a lot like Eastern Europe generally. And this definitely isn't the only conservative nutbag in the country. The darn folks keep getting voted in! Like Ishihara. Why do.. I just... ugh. Stupid racist sexist Ishihara.
Japan has problems. Everywhere has problems. Let's also not assume to know how many Japanese people think this way.
I agree. I would never presume to know where, who and how many of anywhere, not even America. Way too often people from other countries write on forums like they understand the problems that America has and they have the answers. Which they don't, no one really does it would seem. They they also assume that most of America are Bible thumping psychotics, which I don't even know anyone like that. Clearly there is the same kind of problems in Japan as there is in America, and while a lot of people would not like to admit it, most places in the world.
We need a new word that would combine all the words like stupid, moronic, retarded etc. into one big word strong enough to describe what I have just read.
Most men love sexually aggressive women. Most teenage boys have fantasies about them. If you were ever 13 years old you know this to be true.
Guess what smart people,there is even a special porn genre exclusive to Japan where men rape minor children,and your average Tokyo vending machines sell schoolgirl's used underwear..
Don't try to find a way out,or you will be crazed.
I can't really speak for the porn bit, but I personally guarantee that average Tokyo vending machines do not sell underwear of any kind. Assuming that they exist, they are EXTREMELY rare. I've been living in Tokyo for a while now and have yet to see anything stranger than instant noodles from a vending machine. Kind of disappointing, since I was looking forward to seeing all the crazy vending machines I'd heard about. Unless you have seen these mythical panty-dispensers with your own eyes, please stop perpetuating this ridiculous lie that everyone seems to accept as fact.
Now that I have that all typed out, it seems like a silly thing to get argue about, but oh well.
roflo you said the line from the duke nukem mircale of sound song. want a sugar cookie?
as for me, its japan, they be different compared to us, but they do make nice sci-fi and big mechas, but preventing women from enjoying, and also leading, sex is just bad, rethink it japan guy, rethink it.
Ugh, another example of why I hate Japanese society. This is yet another facet of the sexist mindset that sex is an activity to be enjoyed by the man only, and that a woman "gives" her body to the man as some selfless sacrifice. No wonder that their society is so sexually repressed, if it refuses to admit that sex is a mutual partnership rather than a one-sided act. It's times like this that make me think that the US isn't really that bad after all.
My wife is Japanese, and she hasn't "given" her body to me in quite some time. I call foul.
Worgen said:
Its hardly all of japan that is like that, really most societies have a view of women that is they are beneath a man, hell, even after the sexual revolution women are still struggling to get equal rights and they still regularly earn less then men, feminist is practically a 4 letter word since conservatives have done such a good job of demonizing it. Plus its not reasonable people that get assigned to things like this, its the more conservative and weird elements that get put on things like this.
I can't speak for everyone, but from my perspective, feminism has gotten its current bad name from the outspoken, hardcore, man-hating, feminazi bitches that we keep hearing about. Never run into one myself, so I have a feeling they aren't as common as the internet makes them seem. Classic feminism notion of equality? All for it, as long as it's really equality that they want.
Actually the manhating feminazi bitches tend to mostly be an invention of said rightwing groups as a way to turn the word feminist into a 4 letter one, really your just falling for it, if there is one thing the right is really good at re-defining words.
I'll believe you when stupid "feminist" rant blogs(quotes because I believe they misrepresent the cause they claim to champion) that keep getting linked(and which generally have a reputation of banning anyone who doesn't agree with them). I'm sorry, but they do exist, even if they aren't common. like I said before, I've never personally met one, but there are idiots that take things to extremes in all areas of belief. Then again, it could as likely be a different version of the Internet Warrior. The need to compensate for real life impotence is an equal opportunity flaw.
The funny thing is that those who blog about that sort of thing are in the same boat with you, meaning they dont understand what a feminist really is, they have been fooled by the right wing also.
Besides if you are going to judge groups by the lowest common demoniator then you should hate pretty much anyone who is religions since they obviously support any of the suicide idiots and probably hate gamers since that one guy who shot someone once played a game.
Read the post you originally quoted again. I never said anything about hating. I just said that the movement's current bad press likely comes mostly from the vocal minority. [http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/VocalMinority] It's not a malicious right wing conspiracy. It's just stupid people being loud, and like you indicated, this is hardly unique to feminism.
I never said it was a conspiracy, they are just really good at redefining words, its kind of their thing, they repeat the same thing over and over until its original meaning is lost and the new one takes over.
And Japan is a whole lot LESS sexist than many other nations, too. In fact, less sexist than MOST other nations, including many that could be included in "The West," depending on how you define that nebulous term.
"West" commonly refers to Europe/US/Canada/Mexico. We can rename the group to Europe/North American countries, if you prefer.
If you can give me one example of how many countries in that group are more sexist than Japan (not as sexist, or not just sexist in general; more sexist), then I'll be happy to provide articles and studies suggesting the contrary. As it stands, it sounds like you're just trying to split hairs.
Japan is a country with its own culture, no better or worse than any other, taken as a whole.
Are you suggesting that sexism is part of their culture and therefore shouldn't be as stringently criticized? Or are you just making a general statement that has nothing to do with what I stated?
On some points, Japan scores worse than the US. ... On some points (murder rates, say), Japan scores better. All in all, it pretty much balances out.
We're talking about sexism, not murder, not racism, not homophobia, etc. I even specifically stated "sexism." Not only that, but the fact that Japan has virtues, doesn't negate the fact that the country as a whole is really sexist, and that it is a problem. Arguing that things "balance out" makes no sense, because, again, we're arguing sexism, not Best Country in The World 2011. The fact that you feel the need to defend Japan as a whole, but can't even defend them on the one thing I called them out on, speaks volumes on how successful you think you'll be with that.
Unless you're trying to claim that the fact that they have a lower murder rate than the U.S. makes up for the fact that they're more sexist than the U.S., which is just messed up. But I'll give you the benefit of the doubt and assume this is not what you're trying to say.
And please, folks, keep in mind that this guy with these stupid views (views that are held by millions of Americans, by the way, including at least two presidential candidates) is pretty much the equivalent of a school-board member of Bumfuck County, Alabama. He is not in any way representative of "Japan."
Doesn't negate the fact that Japan, as a whole, is still more sexist than the countries that most people in these forums (the posters mostly being from the US and European countries) live in. Therefore they are justified in calling Japan out on, as a whole, still being backwards in comparison in terms of gender roles/sexuality/etc. His views may be extreme, and certainly not everyone in Japan thinks that way, but they aren't completely divorced from how Japan thinks as a whole--hence why people are saying this kind of comment doesn't surprise them.
feminist is practically a 4 letter word since conservatives have done such a good job of demonizing it. Plus its not reasonable people that get assigned to things like this, its the more conservative and weird elements that get put on things like this.
*rolling my eyes*......is this supposed to be taken as a seriously? You really expect me to believe that it's all conservatives, who as you implied "not reasonable people", that are the reason why some people dislike feminism? It is attitudes like this that make me despise liberals and everybody else that constantly bash conservatives because at the end of the day, it seems neither liberals or conservatives are above making such prejudice comments like these. From you comment, it seems to imply that liberals and/or feminist are not at all to blame for why people dislike feminism, which is absurd. For example...
here [http://evebitfirst.wordpress.com/2011/05/18/a-man-is-a-rape-supporter-if/] is a link to the blog he was reading
As for other reasons why some people might not like Feminism, I'm just speculating, but ....
People such as Andrea Dworkin [http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Andrea_Dworkin] are an example of a feminist that give feminism a bad image. She is also a person who I would also be hesitant to call a conservative, despite her giving a feminist.
For people who dislike socialism, Feminisms association [http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Feminism#Socialism] with socialism could be why some people don't like Feminism.
Also, even within the pro-Feminist community, race and class are issues [http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Feminism#Civil_rights_movement_and_anti-racism] because of what is considered mainstream Feminism has been associated with the white race and the middle class. As a result, people who don't fit/meet those traits, such as Black women [http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Feminism#Black_and_postcolonial_ideologies], are also sometimes critical of mainstream Feminism.
____________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________
Personally though, I loose respect for famous feminist like Gloria Steinman, who is described as someone who "saw marriage as a legal trap, arguing that marriage laws were designed for a "person and a half" [http://abcnews.go.com/2020/story?id=124030&page=1#.Tw8QymPOzh8] and has been quoted as saying "You become a semi-non person when you get married. The surest way to be alone is to get married." [http://abcnews.go.com/2020/story?id=124030&page=1#.Tw8QymPOzh8], and "Women's total instinct for gambling is satisfied by marriage" [http://thinkexist.com/quotes/gloria_steinem/4.html], as well as A "woman without a man is like a fish without a bicycle" [http://www.searchquotes.com/quotation/A_woman_without_a_man_is_like_a_fish_without_a_bicycle./208349/]. Yet, for all of the negative things she had to say about marriage, she also went and got married [http://womenshistory.about.com/od/gloriasteinem/a/When-Did-Gloria-Steinem-Get-Married.htm]. I can't help but smh at the women for doing that.
Worgen said:
its not reasonable people that get assigned to things like this, its the more conservative and weird elements that get put on things like this.
Finally, please oh please, tell me why you associate be conservative with being an "[un]reasonable pe[rson]", because from what I've seen being unreasonable isn't exclusive to just conservatives.
This site uses cookies to help personalise content, tailor your experience and to keep you logged in if you register.
By continuing to use this site, you are consenting to our use of cookies.
