Japanese Eroge Company Renames Rape Games to "Platinum Games"

[Krakyn]

Yeah. I really keep feeling the need to point out that IN THE US, a rape is committed every eight minutes.

The fact is that there are people who are going to play the rape games who will go out there and rape--

These quotes are okay. They make sense. There is a rape in the US every 8 minutes, and people who rape people may play rape games because they like rape. Fair enough.

not because they played a video game, but because the game is one part of a culture that says it's okay, that it's just sex (for the men, anyway).

This is where you jump off the assumption deep end. They tried this exact same thing with violent videogames. Just because somebody has violent videogames, does that mean it's causal of their violence? No! It means that they like violence, so they stuff they like has violence in them. Millions of people around the world play those games without being violent. There's no proof that violent video games cause violence, just like there's no proof that a video game about rape would make people rape.

And as desensitizing as violent games can be, they don't desensitize as much, with the same sort of reinforcement.

What proof do you have that a game about rape would desensitize more than a game about violence?

I mean, you don't hear people saying "oh, she wanted to be killed" in murder trials the same way you hear "oh, she wanted to be fucked" in rape trials.

You said before that in the US, a rape happens every 8 minutes. That's without games about rape. These people who say "oh, she wanted to be fucked" do not have video games to blame, so why are you blaming them now? The two are completely unrelated.

 

[Samurai Goomba]

It's ok to murder in a game, since we won't in real life, but is it ok to rape in a game?
Like I think it's a terrible thing, honestly, because when I play a FPS, I'm not, say, holding someone down, screaming at them, watching the fear in their eyes as they beg for mercy and I slit their throat.

When I kill someone in an online game it's effectively like a game of tennis. I get the ball over the net, they missed it, gg, we play again. When I kill an npc, I really don't care - it's a nameless faceless npc (a mob in WoW, say, or generic nazi 01.)

I don't know exactly how these games portray rape, but if it's supposed to be erotic and play to a rape fantasy, I'm going to ASSUME that it's more up-close and personal than "murder" being a sniper rifle shot from 1.5 KM away.

Yes, you made a pretty interesting distinction in that a game produced specifically to cater to the sexual fetish of rape, which is all about domination, would have to be as visceral in its portrayal of domination as possible, whereas a game about shooting needn't be.

However, as with all adherents of this argument, this falters a little when faced with the fact that the vast minority of shooting games have you kill a faceless NPC. Consider the fact that on GTA IV you can kill a police officer on the floor whilst he softly moans, "Oh God, I'm bleeding, I don't want to die!" (actual lines from the game, I remember them because it made me feel a bit guilty) or that you can make a choice to kill certain contacts or let them live (such as the Russian terrorist financier on a United Liberty Paper Merchants mission) and if you choose to stall for time whilst you make your decision them you get lines such as "Please, please, I just wanted a second chance, I've got a family, please let me live." before blowing them away.

As it is games are as visceral as possible in all unethical genres, why is rape different?

Also, you forgot to mention The Punisher, which features graphic torture and very "personal" feeling kills.

 

[lwm3398]

Japan never stops scaring me, or well... some of the people in japan. That place is like a theme park for perverts (and scarier things than that)

Kohta Hirano's mind is probably the sickest thing in Japan.

 

[BGH122]

Yeah. I really keep feeling the need to point out that IN THE US, a rape is committed every eight minutes. I'm pretty sure the murder stats don't reach anything like that high.

The fact is that there are people who are going to play the rape games who will go out there and rape-- not because they played a video game, but because the game is one part of a culture that says it's okay, that it's just sex (for the men, anyway). And as desensitizing as violent games can be, they don't desensitize as much, with the same sort of reinforcement. I mean, you don't hear people saying "oh, she wanted to be killed" in murder trials the same way you hear "oh, she wanted to be fucked" in rape trials.

Sorry, but this was just terrible sexist nonsense. Where in America is it believed that promiscuity is a feature only found acceptable for men? I know butthurt feminists cite it like a mantra, but in my experience modern women are more aggressively promiscuous than modern men. Just to state the obvious for all those who've clearly forgotten: THIS IS NOT THE SEVENTIES.

Furthermore, rape statistics are notoriously unreliable:

Statistics on rape are common in western countries and are becoming more common throughout the world. They are, however, highly politicized, often sex biased, and have been accused of being unreliable because they are so diverse and are used by different groups for different reasons. This is partly because of inconsistent definitions of rape in both legislative and academic studies. However, it is also because of over reporting, under reporting and false reporting of the crime. In the United States rape is defined differently by separate states. In many legislatures in the world some non-consensual sexual acts are not defined as rape at all. They may be considered legal, or as an illegal form of sexual assault. In some jurisdictions, male-female rape is the only form of rape considered rape while in others male-male, female-male or female-female rape may also be included as a legal form of rape.[1] Rape of children is rarely reported in official reports. Nor is the rape of children by their mothers and fathers or other relations represented in official publications. Rape, alone among other major crimes, suffers from severe definitional contradictions that create controversial statistical disparities.

These factors lead to accusations that all rape statistics are unreliable. For example, male-female rape in particular is a highly politicized issue, leading to the polemical use of questionable statistics.[2] According to USA Today reporter Kevin Johnson "no other major category of crime - not murder, assault or robbery - has generated a more serious challenge of the credibility of national crime statistics" than has rape.[3]

A United Nations statistical report compiled from government sources showed that more than 250,000 cases of male-female rape or attempted rape were recorded by police annually. The reported data covered 65 countries.[4]

Male on male, female on male, and female on female rape statistics are rarely shown in official reports.

And even if you were wholly correct on your cited statistics, that still wouldn't lead to the conclusion that video games depicting rape would increase rape.

EDIT: On a re-read it looks like you're saying that the US culture believes rape is 'just sex (for men anyway)'. What in Christ's name do you mean by that, because that sounds like it couldn't be further from the truth.

 

[ryuutchi]

You said before that in the US, a rape happens every 8 minutes. That's without games about rape. These people who say "oh, she wanted to be fucked" do not have video games to blame, so why are you blaming them now? The two are completely unrelated.

I wasn't arguing anything like that. I believe games like this are one part of a culture that condones rape as a whole. I'm not arguing for banning the games or anything like that-- merely pointing out that rape happens at much higher rate than murder, and that our culture as a whole (including games like these) support rape in a way that it doesn't support murder.

I do agree with Valiance in that raping someone in a game is a much more intimate act than shooting them with a sniper rifle or many of the other various ways you can kill people in video games.

 

[ryuutchi]

And even if you were wholly correct on your cited statistics, that still wouldn't lead to the conclusion that video games depicting rape would increase rape.

EDIT: On a re-read it looks like you're saying that the US culture believes rape is 'just sex (for men anyway)'. What in Christ's name do you mean by that, because that sounds like it couldn't be further from the truth.

Allow me to quote from a recent article about Ben Roethlisger-- a football star who was recently accused of raping a woman (charges, I might note, that ESPN has banned its reporters from mentioning): " most girls would feel lucky to get to have sex with someone like Ben Roethlisberger."

Or a statement about Isaac Brock, who was also recently accused of raping a woman: "It's not like he had to make somebody have sex with him. He could have sex with anybody he wanted. [The Stranger] were like sharks going after him."

Essentially, rape does get argued away as "just sex".


And I wasn't arguing that rape games increase rape-- just that they are part of a culture-wide push that desensitizes and minimizes the effects of rape.

 

[Amnestic]

and that our culture as a whole (including games like these) support rape in a way that it doesn't support murder.

First of all: Be aware that you're talking on a global site here. People from across the world browse here so saying "our culture" is just a tad inaccurate as I doubt you're speaking for every culture in teh world.

Second: Judging by your profile you're from America. This is the first time I've ever heard of American culture supporting rape more than murder.

I do agree with Valiance in that raping someone in a game is a much more intimate act than shooting them with a sniper rifle or many of the other various ways you can kill people in video games.

What about tearing their face apart with a chainsword so you can see the blood, brains and gore splatter across your screen? Or the Punisher torture scenes further up that someone mentioned?

Personally, a death is a death, whether it's at the end of a sniper scope or up close where I can see the whites of their eyes. I'm still "taking a life" (in a game). Just because you're more detached from that doesn't mean everyone else is.

 

[geldonyetich]

I've explained my position well enough in that private message. Feel free to post it up here if you want.

I'm not in death troughs or anything, I just have absolutely no interest in argument on an Internet forum.

If I'm anywhere in the wrong here, it's simply that I created a great deal of spam out of a simple desire to not participate. Not participating by participating may seem so very Zen, it is to a great extent the great expenditure of energy I was hoping to avoid.

I disagree: if you're anywhere in the wrong here, it's out of the fact that you feel that you can post contentious opinions and then not defend them.

It'd be like me going on to a forum discussing crime rates and stating "Yeah, I bet they're all [insert nationality here]" and then saying with a morose sigh, 'Woe be me, all this just for posting my opinion, how unfair!'.

I guess I could give it a shot, but I sort of lost my place. What, exactly, would I be arguing? Maybe I should elaborate my standing.

Do I believe RapeLay is a "rape simulator?" Absolutely, on the grounds that the very company that makes it would agree it is intended to be a rape simulator. However, such a thing is merely a label, it does not promise to be a good or highly feasible simulator, it's just being marketed as one.

Am I in favor of censorship? No.

Am I in favor of games being made with the primary premise being to rape fictional characters? No - as a gamer purist, I really don't see it adding anything of value to a game.

Do I believe we live in a world where you can be prosecuted for possessing child pornography? Yes - that was the point of my propagating that wired news link: we actually do [http://www.wired.com/threatlevel/2009/05/manga-porn/]. Possession of child pornography is a crime, and this will often extend to include fictional depictions of child pornography [http://comipress.com/special/miscellaneous/down-the-slippery-slope-the-crime-of-viewing-manga].

Do I believe we should live in a world where you can be prosecuted for possessing fictional depictions child pornography?

Well... I believe individuals who fantasize about acts of depravity should probably be investigated to see if they will act out these fantasies, and perhaps these individuals should be reminded that such acts would be considered severely negative (even in Japan they are) but I do not believe individuals should be prosecuted until negative intents are made clear.

In other words, the fantasy:reality barrier varies between people. There's a number of fairly depraved acts one can fantasize about that remain okay so long as it's clear they will not act out these fantasies. Possession of something does not prove that this intent is really there.

Do I believe that non-fictional depictions of child pornography should be propagated and collected? No, on the grounds that their creation involved the exploitation of real children. It would be very tasteless, like a real snuff movie, to allow this media to exist and be propagated.

Upon the clarification of my position, I'm not sure there's really much left to argue about.

 

[Krakyn]

I'm not arguing for banning the games or anything like that-- merely pointing out that rape happens at much higher rate than murder, and that our culture as a whole (including games like these) support rape in a way that it doesn't support murder.

There are two things that I have to say:
1) I partially agree with you. Rape happens at a higher rate than murder

2) but that's because rape is a lesser crime than murder. I would expect rape numbers to be higher just like I would expect drug dealing charges to be higher.

And I wasn't arguing that rape games increase rape-- just that they are part of a culture-wide push that desensitizes and minimizes the effects of rape.

Okay, that's about the most ridiculous thing I've ever heard. Just because some people don't make as big a deal about rape does not mean that a culture supports it. And the last time I checked, people in the U.S. have been advocating for the death penalty for rapists, where as people fight against the death penalty for murderers.

There's violence and murder in every form of media, but rape isn't. I can't possibly hope to see where you're coming from at all.

 

[Gladion]

I will never understand why murder and genocide are always okay but rape is not. All of them are horrible crimes. But why keep giving this kind of games attention?

 

[Blanks]

Aren't Sony's classic games already sold under the Platinum name?

I can't wait to hear what they make of this...

Maybe Sony should fight fire with fire and rename their classic games Rapest Hits.

That'll learn 'em.

[small](and it probably wouldn't be the most bizarre marketing ploy Sony use this year)[/small].

Sony has Greatest hits

Microsoft has Platinum hits

 

[geldonyetich]

Do I believe we live in a world where you can be prosecuted for possessing child pornography? Yes - that was the point of my propagating that wired news link: we actually do [http://www.wired.com/threatlevel/2009/05/manga-porn/]. Possession of child pornography is a crime, and this will often extend to include fictional depictions of child pornography [http://comipress.com/special/miscellaneous/down-the-slippery-slope-the-crime-of-viewing-manga].

Yeah, but we also live in a world where you can be arrested for being black and loud in your own Cambridge home.

Like I pointed out:

http://www.escapistmagazine.com/forums/read/7.128903?page=5#2779740

Sure, but then you get to my very next sentence of the message you quoted just now and you see that I'm not real torn up about that.

My point in bringing up that you can get convicted for possession of those materials had more to do with establishing where are we, right now, in terms of social mores. The reason why I felt this is necessary is because, amongst the exposure to Internet groups such as 4Chan, the Internet goers social mores may be skewed in a direction not truly reflective of reality. Much like these MangaFox goers [http://forums.mangafox.com/showthread.php?t=84852] who think incest is grand.

You might say this Manga fanatic's conviction is a gross miscarriage of justice? I say he's just getting a rude awakening of how the people about him really felt about that material. The law is reflective of the will of the people, after all. Internet forums might be great for open ideas, but they are not a good place to understand the nature of reality.

 

[WrongSprite]

Creating a rape simulator is never justified no matter what you try and call it.

Yeah I agree.

Right, bye now guys, I'm off to play one of my killing and murder simulators.

 

[geldonyetich]

My point in bringing up that you can get convicted for possession of those materials had more to do with establishing where are we, right now, in terms of social mores.

Maybe, but, you also said it's the law, when it's not.

Well, you know, I just assumed it was the law considering this guy was successfully convicted. You really think judges go around enforcing something other than the law?

This happened 5/2009. Maybe your 2003 resource is outdated.

 

[A Pious Cultist]

Creating a rape simulator is never justified no matter what you try and call it.

What if said rape simulators were keeping actual rapists off the streets?

It's a stretch I know, but I'm just trying to be awkward

Not really, I imagine for some it may actually be a harmless way to ... vent their urges. Face it, most of us can't control our fetishes, neither can paedophiles and rapists, but I think we'd all rather them play computer games then go after real life victims.

 

[Krakyn]

I will proceed to point out the things we disagree with that you've yet to address in posts which you ignored.

Do I believe RapeLay is a "rape simulator?" Absolutely, on the grounds that the very company that makes it would agree it is intended to be a rape simulator. However, such a thing is merely a label, it does not promise to be a good or highly feasible simulator, it's just being marketed as one.

I've said this probably 4 times. It's not a rape simulator, and I think it's a safe bet that the company wouldn't market it as that. It's marketed as a game, just like ever "war simulator" (sarcasm) is marketed as a game. They're all games. Until I'm learning and training to do what's on screen, and it is a viable tool to recreate the experience, it's not a simulator.

Your insistence on referring to it as a simulator led to many a Jack Thompson reference because it's so damn ridiculous and near identical. Seriously, take a second and think about it.

Do I believe we live in a world where you can be prosecuted for possessing child pornography? Yes - that was the point of my propagating that wired news link: we actually do [http://www.wired.com/threatlevel/2009/05/manga-porn/]. Possession of child pornography is a crime, and this will often extend to include fictional depictions of child pornography [http://comipress.com/special/miscellaneous/down-the-slippery-slope-the-crime-of-viewing-manga].

Actually, I looked up information on that case, and he wasn't charged with possession of child pornography, because it's not considered child pornography!

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Legal_status_of_cartoon_pornography_depicting_minors#Further_developments

Turns out he only got obscenity charges. Thus, your point is moot - animated minors are not considered child pornography by law!

Well... I believe individuals who fantasize about acts of depravity should probably be investigated to see if they will act out these fantasies, and perhaps these individuals should be reminded that such acts would be considered severely negative (even in Japan they are) but I do not believe individuals should be prosecuted until negative intents are made clear.

Singling out people who have these types of fantasies is discrimination and an invasion of privacy. And what constitutes an act of depravity? If I looked at porn depicting anal sex, in some states or countries, that would be an act of depravity. Sodomy is still against the law in some places, ridiculously. Would I have to be investigated by the government? That's ridiculous, not to mention logistically impossible.

Also, holding another culture responsible for our moral code is fundamentally wrong. We shouldn't force Japan to do anything unless they threaten us. We have no right to go to Japan and tell them how to do things. We can only tell them what to do if they come here.