Japanese Government Enforcing Anti-Piracy Law on Anime and Manga - Update

Dragonbums

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May 9, 2013
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Lost In The Void said:
Queen Michael said:
But now how am I gonna read an entire manga series for free and pretend it benefits the creator that I don't pay for it? (Oh YES I motherloving went there.)
As someone who subscribes to CrunchyRoll, buys his manga and has quite a few DVDs of various series as well, I still disagree with what you`re implying here. The fact is anime and manga, although the former more than the latter, are ridiculously expensive, even when comparing to Western TV series of the same size. For example, to buy 22 episodes of Psycho-Pass, one of my favourite recent animes from the last couple years is around 100 CDN and I`ve seen other series get more expensive than that. The fact is, if one wants more purchases by consumers, one has to set their products at reasonable prices because not all people are as lucky as I am with my current work status and paygrade.
But the reason why they charge that much is because they are hardly making enough money as it is airing on television. You guys are basically going in a self feeding circle. Don't animation studios have a really big problem with people almost an hour after hosting the show on television-watching the ripped stream on illegal download sites? So they have to make up a lot of that loss through DVD and figurine sales.

I can understand this frustration if they do get a lot of money through TV views and are still charging that much, but that's not the case here at all. I wouldn't be surprised if any animation medium in any country did that if they were in Japan's situation.
 

Artaneius

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Dragonbums said:
Lost In The Void said:
Queen Michael said:
But now how am I gonna read an entire manga series for free and pretend it benefits the creator that I don't pay for it? (Oh YES I motherloving went there.)
As someone who subscribes to CrunchyRoll, buys his manga and has quite a few DVDs of various series as well, I still disagree with what you`re implying here. The fact is anime and manga, although the former more than the latter, are ridiculously expensive, even when comparing to Western TV series of the same size. For example, to buy 22 episodes of Psycho-Pass, one of my favourite recent animes from the last couple years is around 100 CDN and I`ve seen other series get more expensive than that. The fact is, if one wants more purchases by consumers, one has to set their products at reasonable prices because not all people are as lucky as I am with my current work status and paygrade.
But the reason why they charge that much is because they are hardly making enough money as it is airing on television. You guys are basically going in a self feeding circle. Don't animation studios have a really big problem with people almost an hour after hosting the show on television-watching the ripped stream on illegal download sites? So they have to make up a lot of that loss through DVD and figurine sales.

I can understand this frustration if they do get a lot of money through TV views and are still charging that much, but that's not the case here at all. I wouldn't be surprised if any animation medium in any country did that if they were in Japan's situation.
Not the consumers problem. Either make the costs low enough where the consumer wants to buy or get pirated and the business collapses. The customer is always right and if those businesses want to make enough money to just exist they better start listening to them.
 

Dragonbums

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Artaneius said:
Not the consumers problem.
It is when certain animation studios shut down, or when certain demographics can no longer get the anime they like because the studios can't afford to do them anymore.


Either make the costs low enough where the consumer wants to buy or get pirated and the business collapses.
Right, because they weren't outsourcing enough of their animations, nor were they paying their animators dog shit salaries enough right?



The customer is always right and if those businesses want to make enough money to just exist they better start listening to them.
Start listening to them how? Right off the bat I already told you that most of their immediate revenue comes from television views. Views they are not getting because their "fans" have decided they would rather watch a ripped copy on some illegal site than actually watch it on television so they can get immediate money back to pay their animators right, pay their expenses on time, so on and so forth.

The consumer is not always right. This is literally a case of greed being so great on the consumer side that it's killing the industry.

Your not a very good fan if your literally going to say, "go rot in hell" because studios charge sky high for DVD's and figurines because they lose so much money on immediate income when it comes to television views.
 

Treaos Serrare

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I look forward to this nonsensical ruling to be as inneffectual towards Piracy of Anime and Manga as a paper Machae riot shield, any site shutdown will be replaced within days if not hours, new sites will be springing up already to be there when people need to Migrate to yet another site to get up to date translations.
Media corporations in japan need to wake up and smell the blazingly evident and constantly growing markets abroad.
widen your market and lower your prices and you will get triple what you are gauging people for already
 

yunabomb

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Living Contradiction said:
Ho hum. Japan, welcome to where America was ten years ago. If you look at a few newspapers, you'll be able to see where the RIAA and the MPAA made a pig's breakfast of their content.
I'm not too familiar with anime/manga, but in the music realm Japan has actually gotten ahead by doubling down on its traditional business model. Imagine all of the issues mentioned in this thread but orders of magnitude greater for music. Digital options are mediocre, few artists distribute their music internationally, and many/most artists don't put their music videos on the internet. Arashi brought in 14 billion yen (around 140 million USD) in sales revenue last year, so it's working even with some of the problems the industry faces.
 

forgo911

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Dead Century said:
2 years for downloading and 10 for uploading? Fucking christ, I could commit armed robbery here in Canada and be out faster.
Hey want to go rob the local CIBC with water guns?

Hey Japan, do you want us to shoot you, or are you going to do it yourself? This is just a stupid idea.
 

Living Contradiction

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Nov 8, 2009
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yunabomb said:
Living Contradiction said:
Ho hum. Japan, welcome to where America was ten years ago. If you look at a few newspapers, you'll be able to see where the RIAA and the MPAA made a pig's breakfast of their content.
I'm not too familiar with anime/manga, but in the music realm Japan has actually gotten ahead by doubling down on its traditional business model. Imagine all of the issues mentioned in this thread but orders of magnitude greater for music. Digital options are mediocre, few artists distribute their music internationally, and many/most artists don't put their music videos on the internet. Arashi brought in 14 billion yen (around 140 million USD) in sales revenue last year, so it's working even with some of the problems the industry faces.
HOW many millions?

Bugger me. Internet! Find me information on Japan's music industry!

Article from the Independent in the UK on the phenomenon, master. [http://www.independent.co.uk/arts-entertainment/music/features/why-has-japans-cd-market-suddenly-gone-into-decline-9213133.html]

Okay, whew. Japan was just being weird for a while. That's all.

Explanation from Billboard on the phenomenon, master. [http://www.billboard.com/biz/articles/news/global/1568815/why-japans-music-industry-is-booming-for-now]

Okay thanks, Internet. That's all I...

More big numbers and statistics about the phenomenon, master [http://www.ifpi.org/news/Japanese-recorded-music-market-declined-by-15-per-cent-in-2013]

Thank you, Internet.

Let's hear it for cultural differences and the resulting influence on markets, eh?

Freelance piece holding the opposite to be true, master [http://ajournalofmusicalthings.com/state-japans-music-industry-worries-rest-world/]

Internet...
 

Jennacide

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Two thoughts come to mind:
1) You can't stop piracy, in any field. Games, and Ubisoft in particular, have proved this many times over.
2) If this will at least encourage Japan to start exporting more than just token garbage like Bleach, alright, fair enough.

In particular on that second point, they need to reasonably keep up with releases best they can. Attack on Titan localization has been pretty slow, all things considered, but then you look at the real offenders like One Piece. Last I checked the localized version was only up to 230 something in episodes, when the series is actually on 650+. This is why so many outsiders pirate anime/manga, because fansub groups are infinitely better at keeping up with translations. Plus the whole nerd debate that won't ever end of sub vs dub, as only dub ever gets aired on TV.

Also, does this come off as strangely xenophobic, even for Japan, to anyone else? Or is just me?
 

Alterego-X

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Dragonbums said:
It is when certain animation studios shut down, or when certain demographics can no longer get the anime they like because the studios can't afford to do them anymore.
SOME studios will always shut down, because that's how even a healthy, profitable industry works. You will never get to an utopia where every single participant of a market is equally successful.

But by and large, the anime industry is not shrinking [http://www.otakutale.com/2014/2013-anime-industry-gross-profits-sales/], in fact it has been solidly growing over the past few years just like most other entertainment industries.

Dragonbums said:
most of their immediate revenue comes from television views.
That's just incorrect. At least the viewerbase of the late night TV anime industry (everything short of the kiddie stuff), is so niche that TV viewing's revenues don't even justify the costs of airing the shows, let alone production. Unlike western TV shows, and mainstream daytime Japanese shows, the anime studios aren't getting ANY money from the airings, they are actively paying to the TV channels to get their shows aired.

The profits ALL come from merch and disc sales.

This system was set up in the late 90s, after Evangelion made TV anime geek-popular. The prices were not a reaction to piracy, they existed long before streaming and torrents became common. They were necessary to fund production even when no one had many alternatives to TV viewing. The entire industry was already bulilt on a system where the shows themselves are available for free, and the core fandom's honor-buying of expensive materials supports that. Like the charts show it was, and is, working.

And now that high speed internet is common, online viewing could very easily be a part of that system, it could be a more efficient way of letting the shows become well-known to the public for free, before the money starts pouting in from fandom sales.

The only reason why the industry leaders are opposed to this, is because their heads are so far up their asses, that they care more about their hypothetical authorities getting respected, and everything illegal being punished for being illegal, that they don't realize that it's the exact same thing that they would legally want to happen anyways.
 

Fdzzaigl

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You do not lose 20 billion a year you silly people. I can't even buy that stuff here.

Any media person should know how important your reach is, how people tell other people about the works they viewed. Massively increasing the chance that people will buy your material when it finally comes out in those territories.
 

JSoup

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Hectix777 said:
WAIT DOES THIS MEAN I WON'T BE ABLE TO READ MONSTER MUSUME ANYMORE!?
It was released in English a few months ago, so even in with the harshest enforcement of this law, you could still get it.
 

Hectix777

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JSoup said:
Hectix777 said:
WAIT DOES THIS MEAN I WON'T BE ABLE TO READ MONSTER MUSUME ANYMORE!?
It was released in English a few months ago, so even in with the harshest enforcement of this law, you could still get it.

Oh good! Good... I'd be devastated if I couldn't be able to finish this. Especially now since the next chapter we get to meet the girls' parents! OMG SO HYPE!
 

kasperbbs

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I don't want to defend piracy, but their services are 1000 times better. Manga is in a language that i can understand, i don't have to ship it for a month from Japan. If they made digital versions tranlated to English at reasonable prices i wouldn't mind paying for such a service.
 

Dragonbums

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Alterego-X said:
SOME studios will always shut down, because that's how even a healthy, profitable industry works. You will never get to an utopia where every single participant of a market is equally successful.
Except the way the anime industry right now isn't healthy in the slightest. If studios aren't shutting down, they are horrendously underpaying their animators just to make ends meet in the hopes that they can make it to the end of a run and sell DVD's and figurines. That doesn't come off as remotely profitable, nor healthy.

There is no shortage of articles of animators of who work on well known anime barely making enough to leave their parents house.

But by and large, the anime industry is not shrinking [http://www.otakutale.com/2014/2013-anime-industry-gross-profits-sales/], in fact it has been solidly growing over the past few years just like most other entertainment industries.
Just because something is growing in the sense of influence doesn't mean that the people working in it are living well in the slightest.



That's just incorrect. At least the viewerbase of the late night TV anime industry (everything short of the kiddie stuff), is so niche that TV viewing's revenues don't even justify the costs of airing the shows, let alone production. Unlike western TV shows, and mainstream daytime Japanese shows, the anime studios aren't getting ANY money from the airings, they are actively paying to the TV channels to get their shows aired.
I'm not talking about just late night viewing. I'm talking about the fact that in less than an hour of any show going on air in Japan on television, the entire episode is available to watch on illegal streaming sites, and studios lose a huge chunk of money they would of otherwise gotten from television views. Which puts even more strain the studios as they continue their run. Especially if your a small studio. You can't make figurines and DVD's if you can't even afford to finish your series yet.

The profits ALL come from merch and disc sales.
Yeah that's great. Doesn't do fuck all for them when they are trying to actually upstart their show. How can they make figures and DVD's if they barely have the money to pay their artists. The solution seems to be to pay the artists even shittier salaries.

Talk about healthy huh?

This system was set up in the late 90s, after Evangelion made TV anime geek-popular. The prices were not a reaction to piracy, they existed long before streaming and torrents became common. They were necessary to fund production even when no one had many alternatives to TV viewing. The entire industry was already bulilt on a system where the shows themselves are available for free, and the core fandom's honor-buying of expensive materials supports that. Like the charts show it was, and is, working.
Yeah, but now that streaming and torrents are a thing it has left this system extremely unsubstantial, and a lot of animators and studios are suffering and unable to continue doing what they want because they have to pander to the lowest common denominator of fetish moe crap. The point being is that Evangelion and other similar animes still made money from television ads to support the show.

You can't make DVD's and anime figurines if your ass can't even afford to finish the show. Yet alone pay the animators. Why are you under the assumption that Evangelion receieved ZERO money from television ads during it's television run?

And now that high speed internet is common, online viewing could very easily be a part of that system, it could be a more efficient way of letting the shows become well-known to the public for free, before the money starts pouting in from fandom sales.
Free shit doesn't pay the bills or feeds the family for the people working on these shows. Online viewing could easily be integrated into plan. But as it is, the largest websites are more content to pirate the shows and stream it online for their own benefit, whilst the studios don't see a cent of that viewer money.

The only reason why the industry leaders are opposed to this, is because their heads are so far up their asses, that they care more about their hypothetical authorities getting respected, and everything illegal being punished for being illegal, that they don't realize that it's the exact same thing that they would legally want to happen anyways.
Or maybe it's because many studios are suffering. Or are you just going to ignore the very real problem of horrendously underpaid animators even for POPULAR SHOWS that can barely afford to move out of their parents house while working full time.
 

Alterego-X

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Dragonbums said:
Except the way the anime industry right now isn't healthy in the slightest. If studios aren't shutting down, they are horrendously underpaying their animators just to make ends meet in the hopes that they can make it to the end of a run and sell DVD's and figurines. That doesn't come off as remotely profitable, nor healthy.
It doesn't matter if it "comes off as profitable or healthy" to you, if it in fact is profitable.

You repeatedly appeal to unpleasantly low wages, but that is a social justice issue, not a matter of industrial economical failure.

Apple isn't "suffering", just because iPhones are manufactured in sweatshops. It's a curiosity of the local situations, that people are willing to work for so low wages, but evidently they ARE willing to work for it. Even if apple would be making twice as much money as it does now, the workers wouldn't earn twice as much, instead there would be twice as many of them employed.

The same principle is happening in the anime industry. You can see how in the past years as the industry's profits increased, so did the number of anime produced. The extra money was spent on more people, not on enriching the existing ones.

Wage size is not an indicator of the industry's success, it's an indicator of how much people are willing to work for.




Dragonbums said:
I'm not talking about just late night viewing. I'm talking about the fact that in less than an hour of any show going on air in Japan on television, the entire episode is available to watch on illegal streaming sites, and studios lose a huge chunk of money they would of otherwise gotten from television views.
And that's where you are wrong. The overwhelming majority of the series are late night anime in the first place. The money that they would have gotten from TV viewers, is ¥0.

In fact, it's less than that. Studios are PAYING to have their shows aired.

Yeah that's great. Doesn't do fuck all for them when they are trying to actually upstart their show. How can they make figures and DVD's if they barely have the money to pay their artists. The solution seems to be to pay the artists even shittier salaries.
Does it? I don't know about animator wages decreasing in the past decade. They have always been low.

The point being is that Evangelion and other similar animes still made money from television ads to support the show.
Evangelion was intended to be a daytime kiddie anime, but after a few episode it was moved to a late night spot, where it sired the modern otaku anime industry that relies on VHS and later disc sales rather than a mainstream viewerbase's ad support.

You can't make DVD's and anime figurines if your ass can't even afford to finish the show. Yet alone pay the animators.
Fortunately, anime studios can afford all of these by making solid profits. The fact that animator salaries are traditionally low, also helps.

Or maybe it's because many studios are suffering. Or are you just going to ignore the very real problem of horrendously underpaid animators even for POPULAR SHOWS that can barely afford to move out of their parents house while working full time.
Yes I am going to ignore it. It has nothing to do with the fact that anime studios are profitable, and even able to hire more people and make more shows per year.

As an industry, anime is healthy.

Maybe as a workplace culture, it has some unfortunate elements, but the solution to that is labor unions and minimum wage increases, not greater copyright enforcement for an already efficient and profitable industry's leaders' benefit.
 

Chaiwallah

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Sep 13, 2014
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What about this idea? Hire the fansubbers and release as before but charge a dollar a download or some reasonable monthly subscription fee.
 

Aya Amanogawa

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Damn. We know you just want to get the money for your companies, Japan. But if you keep doing this, more piracies will happen. You should've given the people what they want in the first place so they didn't have to go against your laws.
Plus if fan translators are doing a better job at it, then of course we would prefer them more..!
 

Katzen

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Jan 17, 2016
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I don't even believe this article facts are true. Even if the Japanese government did pass a bill, there is no way they could combat piracy in other countries.