This sounds like a most excellent plot for a Godzilla movie. Next we'll hear about freindly humanoid aliens from Planet X... but they will actually turn out to be giant alien cockaroaches who have summoned Gigan to invade Japan.
Japanese Robots Building Moon Base
- Thread starter Tom Goldman
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I am sorry, but are you sure your data is accurate? Beacuse reading up on the treaties pertaining the Moon doesn't tell me anything of the sort.Therumancer said:
Article IV said:
Article VIII said:
Source: Treaty on Principles Governing the Activities of States in the Exploration and Use of Outer Space, including the Moon and Other Celestial Bodies [http://www.unoosa.org/oosa/en/SpaceLaw/gares/html/gares_21_2222.html]Article I said:
Basically, as long as it is not for military purposes, Japan has every legal right to establish a robot base on the Moon. Not even the Moon Treaty, which has not been signed and ratified by most countries in the world (including Japan), does not preclude this.
That said, the treaty does have safeguards to try and prevent a state from abusing a research facility for military purposes. For example, all signatory states (which includes China and Korea) have the right to gain entry into the facility as long as the owning state is notified in advance.
Also, in spite of this, I do agree with you that space exploration will remain limited as long as humanity is divided into independant states. But whether a "Earth Federation" is possible is another matter entirely.
Beacuse even though they are not an organic lifeform, they still require a facility from where they can repair themselves and communicate with Earth.Paularius said:
whee yay Japan, props for being several decades late with landing on the moon rave haha jk
(tho I won't stop panning Korea for being a decade behind with the boy band fiasco)
but it'd be cool since mayyybe it could lead to a step towards...oh idk, mech suits
(tho I won't stop panning Korea for being a decade behind with the boy band fiasco)
but it'd be cool since mayyybe it could lead to a step towards...oh idk, mech suits
In point of fact, the Japanese also build some incredibly advanced robots in real life, far beyond what many other places do.
Also, HOLY @#$%! That is an awesome idea; it removes so many of the hassles of construction on a body other than Earth... or some other planet that can support our life without any problem.
Also, HOLY @#$%! That is an awesome idea; it removes so many of the hassles of construction on a body other than Earth... or some other planet that can support our life without any problem.
Oh cool I might get some visitors on my moon base tha- WAIT! SOUTH POLE?! That's my moon base territory!
I haven't checked up on it in a very long time, but I am about as sure as I can get. Something your not considering though is that just because nations don't agree to a treaty doesn't mean that other nations will let them do whatever they want. Chances are if someone who didn't sign the treaty tried, everyone would basically do whatever it took to stop them.Tom Phoenix said:
I'd also point out that while an Independant nation on paper, Japan is pretty much a "satellite nation" of the US for all intents and purposes, we have them under constant occupation despite being fairly "nice" in the way we've set it up and worded it. In a practical sense I'd imagine they would be treated as if the US was doing it, especially seeing as when it comes to major action they really can't blow their noses without our say so. It's a fairly complicated situation, but that's the eventual gist of it.
I believe where most of the things I remember come from would be along the lines of how one goes about inspecting such things to prove that they are non-military, etc... The bottom line is that you really can't, and I believe there has been quite a bit said about it later. I believe one of the reasons why the "International Space Station" is what it is, is because it can be claimed that it's not under one nation's jurisdiction, and at the same time we keep that running (despite being a piece of garbage according to many reports) because it's functionally impossible to build another one. The US Space Station having been abandoned due to treaty, with apparently billions of dollars worth of materials floating around up there more or less unused.
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At any rate, as far as a world unity goes it IS possible. The "catch" is of course that billions of people are going to have to die to make it happen. Simply put it can occur one of two ways. One would be the "optimistic" view that there will be a global crisis that will totally demolish the existing nations, decimate the population, and force people to band together for survival, and out of that will come a world goverment. This is optimistic because ideally it's blameless, with noone able to say "so and so, just killed billions". The other method is basically conquest, though primarily a conquest through the spread of ideas. As ideas spread you find people beginning to think more and more alike, and agree on the same things. It erodes long-set cultural values and identity over a period of time, and this is why many nations are so concerned about "national firewalls" and the like. There is some truth to the idea that "The American Empire" is conquering the world with freedom, capitolism, and an infectuous culture. "Starbucks" and "The Big Mac" having done more "damage" than the biggest guns and bombs that you can imagine. The problem of course being that there are going to be people who are either totally closed off from outside ideas, or will not conform at all. So in the end when you have enough powerful nations and people, thinking enough alike, and it's apparent that ideas aren't going to go much further, that's when you bust out the weapons and start wiping out whomever else is left that won't conform. Simply because for things to work you can't have exceptions, or other rival groups, otherwise nothing changes. Not pretty, but well... there it is. One of those morally questionable acts that comes down to the numbers in the end, the people that die here being justified by the benefits accrued by even more people who will come later, far more people when you consider things like expanded living space and resources that can cause the population to spread out due to space exploration or whatever.
At any rate, one of the reasons why I am on such a free speech kick (in general) is because I've looked at the situation, and likely ways it can turn out. One cannot rely on an "act of god" so to speak, so people have to solve the problems themselves. I feel that the more people that share ideas right now, and are able to drift closer together, means less people that will inevitably have to die in order to save/progress our species. This is one of the reasons why I am not especially keen on the idea of "national firewalls" and "information blockades" set up to preserve a culture and it's heritage, and ironically it's one of the reasons why I am less receptive to supporting various "independance" movements among differant nations because I feel it's counter productive, help a group break away now and tell them they can self govern, and then 2-3 generations down the pipe, you've got yet another group that has to be dealt with, with the added moral ambigiouty that you helped create the situation as opposed to bringing them in (presumably) with whatever culture they were seeking independance from.
Now, for those who read this far and think I'm whacked (which I guess I am by many people's standards) one final point I'll make while prattling on about this, is that I do not see this as being a "well, we can do whatever is comfortable now situation, since we're talking a long time in the future". Sadly, I feel it has to happen in a couple of human generations, or at least great strides have to be made. The reason being that with the rate of population growth, resource consumption, and everything else, it's a very real possibility that we could deplete the resources on the planet simply by pursueing short term, terrestrial goals, and competing with each other. Enviromentalists and such already whine about this. What's more it's not like we'll leave things be to allow the earth to fix itself, we'll just grab up whatever appears as it appears... effectively stranding us here until our sun dies, even if that's billions of years in the future. Basically actions taken right now, could doom us.
While just a *bit* Melodramatic, one of the reasons why I can casually toss around suggestions of mass murder, conquest, and the like as a way of solving problems, is that oddly I see it as again a matter of "morality by the numbers". Billions of human lives seems like an unreasonable cost for anything... unless you weigh it against the survival of the species as a whole.
Also don't get the wrong impression, while I believe America is integral to this whole thing, in the end if things worked "ideally" according to my now-very off topic rambling, all nations would wind up disbanding into the unity, and while a lot of America's principles would doubtlessly survive and form a key part of the foundation (probably the cornerstone of it) America itself would also disband. Chances are simply going by the numbers I also very much doubt those from what was America would wind up dominating the goverment for very long since arguably everyone involved would have votes, and the abillity to put people forward for electon, etc... Say China genuinely adapted and joined things, they have a huge percentage of the world's population. By the numbers you'd see more people from there in positions of power than people from what is currently the US or Europe.
Errr, well, I guess my point is that I think it is definatly possible. Indeed while I don't think many people rationalize it this way, a lot of the current issues right now over free speech, goverment/cultural "firewalls" even among enlightened nations, and other things are all part of this ongoing "battle". There is very much a conflict between maintaining cultural individualism and ideaology, and globalization.
I agree. Gundams will combat SKYNET and the AI that run the Matrix. I will pay to read a book with this crossover.lasherman said:
Well said. Most likely the same treaties that hold for Antarctica will come into play with the Moon, providing for small scientific colonies but nothing really constructive or progressive.Therumancer said:
If Richard Garriott [http://www.escapistmagazine.com/news/view/99516-Richard-Garriott-Claims-the-Moon] was serious about his claim to the moon, he would have been so tied up in diplomatic and political snafu he would have felt a political prisoner.
Today's political climate that still is on an endless loop from the cold war restricts many space programs that would have had us already colonizing Mars and perhaps even the moons of Jupiter. We already have the technology to allow manned ships to escape the solar system's gravity well and explore neighboring systems within a feasible timespan. But treaties forbid such ships from being put into use, because of their nuclear powerplants. I seem to recall that there was some wrangling for the Galileo probe to get used, not only because of the paranoia of its using the Earth as a slingshot, but also of the ion drive which a couple countries felt violated the nuclear space treaty.
A world unity would just about be what we need to get such a program going where it would benefit the human race and get many of our industries that are destroying our world onto other planets and surfaces that won't pose a threat to us. But I doubt such a unity will occur in our lifetime. The current attempt at such is rapidly degrading itself into a farce, with zero attempt to adjust to the new climate that has come about since the cold war ended.
Many say we need to solve our problems before we even think of colonizing space. That is actually true. But a lot of our problems stem from the fact we are quickly approacing a time when we will achieve overpopulation, and that won't even be a primary factor when overindustrialization and resource harvesting ruin most of the land we should be putting towards providing simpler needs of each of our planetary citizens. The current fiasco with BP is a strong example.
There was a time when human imagination was discouraged, and yet many broke new boundaries to provide many of the things we take for granted today, and these achievements' potential are nowhere near being realized. Today it seems human imagination is encouraged, and yet no boundaries are being broken. Mostly because corporations and governments feel the people want just the same old thing. Or would prefer the people wanted the same old thing.
Now we have Japan actually declaring an attempt to try something new. I hope they are serious, and are prepared to deal with what is up there. There is every reason to believe the Moon can provide many resources that can improve our way of life and provide a chance at a decent future. Let's be serious for once, and hope that this attempt actually breaks new ground and breaks our current racial funk we are in. And by racial I mean the human race. Everyone.
Gotta love Japan. First awesome robots, now awesome robots building a base on the moon. You guys are awesome.
Its what, 400,000 km from the Earth? That'd make for a pretty lame missle platform. Considering that the Earth has a radius of about 6000km.
I'm all for getting permenant bases setup on the moon. Today the Moon, tomorrow the Galaxy.
I'm all for getting permenant bases setup on the moon. Today the Moon, tomorrow the Galaxy.