Jimquisition: Batman Is Everything Wrong With Square Enix

Arcane Azmadi

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FF XIII was the game where Squeenix finally and irreversibly jumped the shark. I mean it's not literally irreversible, hell, they could theoretically stop doing moronic things and go back to making the greatest JRPGs in the world tomorrow, but we all know they won't. They seem utterly committed to this mindless course of self-destruction and nothing can change their minds.

Hell, they still refuse to remake FF VII (despite remaking the SHIT out of the rest of the FF series), presumably because of a crippling phobia of success, adulation and money. There's no helping a company like that.

Norithics said:
If you look at concept art for even the earliest Final Fantasy games, it's all extremely overelaborate. A lot of characters look like they tried to dress themselves in a Persian rug store, and only through the naturally simplifying elements of sprite limitations did their much more simple, elegant designs come about.
Oh that's just Yoshitaka Amano's [http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Yoshitaka_Amano] personal art style. ALL his characters looks like that.
 

Samael Barghest

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As far as Batman goes, the design is pretty bad. However, I wouldn't mind a boss like this in my next action RPG. That would be pretty sweet and bowel cleansing at the same time.
 

rosac

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canadamus_prime said:
Square-Enix does seem to have it's priorities screwed up. And yes the most iconic characters in video games have very simple designs,
I think FF10 was actually ok for this. I remember what Tidus, Yuna, Tidus, Auron, Kimahri, Jecht and seymour look like (Not so with the Al-Bhed character). FF12 wise I'm not so sure, I remember fran and vaan for all the wrong reasons, and balthier just because he's a knight who kicks major ass.

But yes, FF4 and FF7 crisis core are potentially the best when it comes to simple but memorable characters when it comes to design (out of the FF games I have played). Crisis core in particular, the main players are all distinct in their own ways and have personality quirks that are memorable.

So yeah, tone it down, chill out, stick to the rules of KISS (Keep It Simple, Stupid)

CAPTCHA: Dollar Signs. This is what Squenix have in their eyes.
 

Dr.Awkward

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Arcane Azmadi said:
FF XIII was the game where Squeenix finally and irreversibly jumped the shark. I mean it's not literally irreversible, hell, they could theoretically stop doing moronic things and go back to making the greatest JRPGs in the world tomorrow, but we all know they won't. They seem utterly committed to this mindless course of self-destruction and nothing can change their minds.

Hell, they still refuse to remake FF VII (despite remaking the SHIT out of the rest of the FF series), presumably because of a crippling phobia of success, adulation and money. There's no helping a company like that.

Norithics said:
If you look at concept art for even the earliest Final Fantasy games, it's all extremely overelaborate. A lot of characters look like they tried to dress themselves in a Persian rug store, and only through the naturally simplifying elements of sprite limitations did their much more simple, elegant designs come about.
Oh that's just Yoshitaka Amano's [http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Yoshitaka_Amano] personal art style. ALL his characters looks like that.
Only thing is that there was a concept artist between Yoshitaka's work and the sprites you got to see in the early games - Their job was to actually "de-detail" the concept art and pose them into something that could be clearly seen as a character in the game, but would still keep crucial details that made them unique. Otherwise, what you saw of Yoshitaka's original designs ended up in the portraits in the stat and party menus. (I really wish I knew whoever did that part of the concepts, because he/she is quite the unsung hero)

He won't admit to it, but maybe Tetsuya needs that same crutch for his own concept art now?
 

ssgtnelson

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I can't stand the anime-zation of everything. Everything the Japanese edit or create LOOKS EXACTLY THE SAME. Either all the men look like women and anything in armor looks like a Gundam robot.
 

Mastemat

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>_> I like the facy batman... BECAUSE it's so overdesigned...
But I guess my mentality of it is "well it's certainly a nice display piece" but it's not like I'd buy that for a 10yrold to play with... Billy could lose an eye... or 12.

As for FFXV... it's gonna be shit.
From all the gameplay "footage" I've seen... all the trailers... all everything...
It's trying to be Uncharted... and it's gonna fail at that.
Namely because when I pick up an RPG... I want to play an RPG. I don't want to go running around jumping on shit... I wanted to play a damn RPG with levels and strategy and gear and thinking...
If I wanted Action-Adventure-CSfest... I'd go play Uncharted.
But that's not why it's gonna be shit.
That's just why it will probably sell poorly and have MASSIVE return rates.

It's gonna be shit because it's FFXIII-4.
I don't understand what they are thinking at SE... They basically fired Sakaguchi (in Japan, when you have done a lot for a company but it would look bad if you got fired for doing poorly... they give you a fancy window office and basically entomb you there) after the abysmal failures that were 8 and 9. (Which 9 is not a bad game, it's actually very good. But it sold terribly, and I feel like that was for two reasons: 1) PS2 just came out so stupid people won't buy a new PS1 game and 2) FFVIII was so bad that people decided to skip 9. I feel like it's much more the latter than the former reason since the PS2 was backwards compatible.)
Yet the FFXIII guy... who is a HUGE asshole... (he's the one who "defended" FFXIII's "plot" with "if you don't get it, you're not smart enough to grasp the complexities")
Is somehow not only still legit employed....
But he's now gonna ruin FFXV too??
How much money do you have to loose SE before you realize that that man is dumber than dumb????
(And it was said by the devs that FFXV IS just FFXIII-4 but with all the funny gibberish names replaced... They literally just replaced all the l'cie falcie and all that BS with other names....)
He's given us X-2. XIII. XIII-2. and XIII-3.
***** should have been fired after X-2... cause that... "game".... uhg.
Is it any wonder that XIII was to terribad when he's also responsible for X-2?
 

Spaceman Spiff

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That's a Batman? Huh, wouldn't have known that if somebody just showed me a picture of it. It looks like some 10 year old's ultimate badass fantasy. And also terrible. It is terrible.
 

Shirokurou

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I agree 97%.

Except I think Nomura is just about the only thing in Square Enix that DOES work.
They have these...beautiful games with nice designs and then shitty planning and shittier story.

Nomura directed the Kingdom Hearts series and that's pretty straight and pretty fun. So him Directing XV I think (or hope) will save FF.

And yeah...I think that was actually just bahamut from some unreleased game...which was then reverse-engineered into Batman. And characters become iconic, not because of how they look, but what they do.
 

Twinmill5000

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Jim, while I sort of agree with your video, I don't think the issue is overdesigning. If done right, one can create an intricately layered piece of art that has more elements than gramatical errors in your average, unhappy commentor.

The issue with Final Fantay games, in particular, is that they gear all of their design elements to adhere to an angsty tween's outlook on the world, their outlook on 'epic', and their outlook on 'normal, because you adults are just stupid har har har'.

I want to make a distinction in my argument right now, however. I'm clear on the concept of overdesign being a cluttered mess of elements that could just be eliminated, and I understand that it might sound like I'm simply defending good design while not grasping the difference between theory and execution. I'm not.

I'm saying, that, really, if done right, a character can have 9 belts and 8 hats with 2 monocles and shoulderplates as big as... really big shoulderplates. If done right, that character can have endless designs layered on top of them, maybe clashing, maybe not, but that character can still look much better than how they would look with any of those layers of designs removed.

What I'm trying to say is this: Most of Final Fantasy 13's characters probably look like a clusterfucks of polygons and mismatched shapes, done so badly, that there's no point in trying to sift through the intricacy in them, but Lightning? She's hot. Also, I'm getting sidetracked, but she's done well, and maybe part of it is, really, because her design is relatively simple. A few other characters I can't remember? I don't know, they're well done too. Lightning's an example of element heavy design done well; she's my entire argument encapsulated in a single, pink haired badass. Because of that, she's easily one of the most iconic characters in the series, and as someone who actively hates that said series and almost everything that it stands for, I can say that Lightning will probably be one of the most memorable characters from this generation of gaming.

Sort of like another character, who's an awesome example of element heavy design done right. It works with her theme, and nothing about her detracts from the message her character portrays.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5r03Q3gglV8

Vi.


With that said, when overdesign is done bad, well, take a field trip into Second Life to see what happens.
 

Scrythe

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There is definitely one thing that's iconic about Lightning:

Motomu Toriyama's Pygmalion/Galatea relationship with his own creation.

Seriously, what the fuck?
 

otakon17

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"There is nothing for the eyes to hone in on" Yeah, except for the GIANT CRIMSON RED BAT INSIGNIA as his visor!
 

James Cochran

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I can't say I agree that Square Enix's drive to amp up their game's graphics are the issue, but they are definitely a part of the problem. This developer made it's bones by catering to gamers who were and continue to be hungry for a good story. For myself, seeing Final Fantasy 4 played by a friend in my youth was the catalyst to turn games from a high-tech toy for kids into an art form as valid as a well executed book or film.
Square Enix seems at some point to have lost track of the tale-telling aspect of their products. Mr. Sterling touches at this here but I don't think he puts enough emphasis on it. I enjoyed Final Fantasy 13. Barely. The crap going on in the background was, as Mr. Sterling pointed out, a huge distraction from the story embedded in it, what little there was present.
The last time I was REALLY pumped for a new FF game was 8. The last decent story was 7. Argue if you want, but how much money has Square Enix made from sequels, movies, toys, and assorted paraphernalia from that title? Was it the amazing graphics that made players drop trou and spread cheek to accommodate the FF7 merchandise train? I kind of doubt it. The equation is simpler than Square seems to think. This works for good books, music, films and TV too. Program a semi-original story with minimal to middling character drama, don't over-explain your environment, operate on the assumption that your audience have enough brain cells to fill in the gaps, and as the good book says, "Don't Panic!"

Make a game that is more "Louis C.K. in a brandy room" and less "juggling clown in an elementary assembly hall" and I will buy it every time.
 

Shjade

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Feb 2, 2010
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Anyone else look at this Batman design and think, "Azrael's batsuit modifications have gotten way out of hand?"

No? Just me? Okay. v.v

(If you're unfamiliar, just search "Azrael as batman.")
 

Cat Cloud

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As much as I used to like Squeenix's over the top designs, I agree that they've been way out of control recently. I can hardly keep up with all the new character designs they churn up, nothing sticks. They've also been whoring up the iOS market, disappointing fans again and again (dat TWEWY tease will forever anger me). I like how they also cheated us PSP owners out of FF Type-O. Thanks SE. We don't need fancier graphics and even more over the top character designs. I want good characters and decent plot more than I want bells and whistles. They're trying too hard to stay at the top of the industry (all the industry, seriously, they're trying to do shooters, iOS, MMO's, final fantasy...), and if anything all their recent behavior has been pointing towards the fact they're already failing and are just trying to make cash grabs.

I think they're too scared to do what they used to do (make normal games) any more. Hell, they're terrified of making a FF7 remake despite the fan demand. They put way too much money into their main productions if their that scared of a classic that popular failing. Or maybe they know that under their current direction and obsession with glamour that they'd mess it up somehow.

I'm beginning to think that part of the reason TWEWY was good was because it was made with Jupiter. Bravely Default likewise wasn't directly made by SE. And as excited I am for KH3 I have no hopes for the plot or the characters. KH3D already trained Axel/Lea of his personality (and the plot was completely BS, completely forgettable, at least the other games' plot left somewhat of an impression on me).

The Osaka group working on them however is solid in their game design, if nothing else. They made KH3D in only a year and although it felt undercooked, tedious, and scattered compared to BBS, another game they worked on, the gameplay had a lot of potential behind it. Hell, they made BBS and that had a fantastic fighting system and minigames, imho. I want to see what they can do with KH3. Maybe its a good thing Nomura's team is busy with FFIV.
 

happyninja42

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otakon17 said:
"There is nothing for the eyes to hone in on" Yeah, except for the GIANT CRIMSON RED BAT INSIGNIA as his visor!
Yes but is it his eye slit? Is it an entire facial sequence? Is the bottom part of the red bat symbol coming down over where his mouth would be? Or are the peaks of the red wings going up above his head? Where is his face in proportion to that red insignia? I've seen anime armor types that would fit either shape, and you can't freaking tell with this design.

And seriously, if the only thing that you can make out as an identifying mark on the entire suit is a single, small piece of different coloration, on a huge, black amalgamation of angles and lines and pointy bits, is that a good thing? The only thing you can hone in on as you put it, is his face, everything else is an eye strain of extraneous bits and stuff that the Batman wouldn't freaking bother to have because they would be impractical in a fight.