Jimquisition: Batman Is Everything Wrong With Square Enix

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Twinmill5000

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Jim, while I sort of agree with your video, I don't think the issue is overdesigning. If done right, one can create an intricately layered piece of art that has more elements than gramatical errors in your average, unhappy commentor.

The issue with Final Fantay games, in particular, is that they gear all of their design elements to adhere to an angsty tween's outlook on the world, their outlook on 'epic', and their outlook on 'normal, because you adults are just stupid har har har'.

I want to make a distinction in my argument right now, however. I'm clear on the concept of overdesign being a cluttered mess of elements that could just be eliminated, and I understand that it might sound like I'm simply defending good design while not grasping the difference between theory and execution. I'm not.

I'm saying, that, really, if done right, a character can have 9 belts and 8 hats with 2 monocles and shoulderplates as big as... really big shoulderplates. If done right, that character can have endless designs layered on top of them, maybe clashing, maybe not, but that character can still look much better than how they would look with any of those layers of designs removed.

What I'm trying to say is this: Most of Final Fantasy 13's characters probably look like a clusterfucks of polygons and mismatched shapes, done so badly, that there's no point in trying to sift through the intricacy in them, but Lightning? She's hot. Also, I'm getting sidetracked, but she's done well, and maybe part of it is, really, because her design is relatively simple. A few other characters I can't remember? I don't know, they're well done too. Lightning's an example of element heavy design done well; she's my entire argument encapsulated in a single, pink haired badass. Because of that, she's easily one of the most iconic characters in the series, and as someone who actively hates that said series and almost everything that it stands for, I can say that Lightning will probably be one of the most memorable characters from this generation of gaming.

Sort of like another character, who's an awesome example of element heavy design done right. It works with her theme, and nothing about her detracts from the message her character portrays.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5r03Q3gglV8

Vi.


With that said, when overdesign is done bad, well, take a field trip into Second Life to see what happens.
 

Scrythe

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Jun 23, 2009
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There is definitely one thing that's iconic about Lightning:

Motomu Toriyama's Pygmalion/Galatea relationship with his own creation.

Seriously, what the fuck?
 

otakon17

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"There is nothing for the eyes to hone in on" Yeah, except for the GIANT CRIMSON RED BAT INSIGNIA as his visor!
 

James Cochran

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I can't say I agree that Square Enix's drive to amp up their game's graphics are the issue, but they are definitely a part of the problem. This developer made it's bones by catering to gamers who were and continue to be hungry for a good story. For myself, seeing Final Fantasy 4 played by a friend in my youth was the catalyst to turn games from a high-tech toy for kids into an art form as valid as a well executed book or film.
Square Enix seems at some point to have lost track of the tale-telling aspect of their products. Mr. Sterling touches at this here but I don't think he puts enough emphasis on it. I enjoyed Final Fantasy 13. Barely. The crap going on in the background was, as Mr. Sterling pointed out, a huge distraction from the story embedded in it, what little there was present.
The last time I was REALLY pumped for a new FF game was 8. The last decent story was 7. Argue if you want, but how much money has Square Enix made from sequels, movies, toys, and assorted paraphernalia from that title? Was it the amazing graphics that made players drop trou and spread cheek to accommodate the FF7 merchandise train? I kind of doubt it. The equation is simpler than Square seems to think. This works for good books, music, films and TV too. Program a semi-original story with minimal to middling character drama, don't over-explain your environment, operate on the assumption that your audience have enough brain cells to fill in the gaps, and as the good book says, "Don't Panic!"

Make a game that is more "Louis C.K. in a brandy room" and less "juggling clown in an elementary assembly hall" and I will buy it every time.
 

Shjade

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Feb 2, 2010
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Anyone else look at this Batman design and think, "Azrael's batsuit modifications have gotten way out of hand?"

No? Just me? Okay. v.v

(If you're unfamiliar, just search "Azrael as batman.")
 

Cat Cloud

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As much as I used to like Squeenix's over the top designs, I agree that they've been way out of control recently. I can hardly keep up with all the new character designs they churn up, nothing sticks. They've also been whoring up the iOS market, disappointing fans again and again (dat TWEWY tease will forever anger me). I like how they also cheated us PSP owners out of FF Type-O. Thanks SE. We don't need fancier graphics and even more over the top character designs. I want good characters and decent plot more than I want bells and whistles. They're trying too hard to stay at the top of the industry (all the industry, seriously, they're trying to do shooters, iOS, MMO's, final fantasy...), and if anything all their recent behavior has been pointing towards the fact they're already failing and are just trying to make cash grabs.

I think they're too scared to do what they used to do (make normal games) any more. Hell, they're terrified of making a FF7 remake despite the fan demand. They put way too much money into their main productions if their that scared of a classic that popular failing. Or maybe they know that under their current direction and obsession with glamour that they'd mess it up somehow.

I'm beginning to think that part of the reason TWEWY was good was because it was made with Jupiter. Bravely Default likewise wasn't directly made by SE. And as excited I am for KH3 I have no hopes for the plot or the characters. KH3D already trained Axel/Lea of his personality (and the plot was completely BS, completely forgettable, at least the other games' plot left somewhat of an impression on me).

The Osaka group working on them however is solid in their game design, if nothing else. They made KH3D in only a year and although it felt undercooked, tedious, and scattered compared to BBS, another game they worked on, the gameplay had a lot of potential behind it. Hell, they made BBS and that had a fantastic fighting system and minigames, imho. I want to see what they can do with KH3. Maybe its a good thing Nomura's team is busy with FFIV.
 

happyninja42

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otakon17 said:
"There is nothing for the eyes to hone in on" Yeah, except for the GIANT CRIMSON RED BAT INSIGNIA as his visor!
Yes but is it his eye slit? Is it an entire facial sequence? Is the bottom part of the red bat symbol coming down over where his mouth would be? Or are the peaks of the red wings going up above his head? Where is his face in proportion to that red insignia? I've seen anime armor types that would fit either shape, and you can't freaking tell with this design.

And seriously, if the only thing that you can make out as an identifying mark on the entire suit is a single, small piece of different coloration, on a huge, black amalgamation of angles and lines and pointy bits, is that a good thing? The only thing you can hone in on as you put it, is his face, everything else is an eye strain of extraneous bits and stuff that the Batman wouldn't freaking bother to have because they would be impractical in a fight.
 

MrFalconfly

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I guess the designer who made the aesthetic for Final Fantasy is the same guy who designed the Lexus LFA.



Intakes and odd angles all over the damn place.
 

Drejer43

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Kuro Serpentina said:
My favourite company is Nippon Ichi, but Jim never seems to say shit about them... Heck, I think he praised them for a moment a while back
So I'm looking at some of their newer games, and honestly most if not all of them looks like the kind of game that is impossible to get into unless you played the previous titles. Got any recommendations, that are easy to get into?
 

Kuro Serpentina

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Drejer43 said:
Kuro Serpentina said:
My favourite company is Nippon Ichi, but Jim never seems to say shit about them... Heck, I think he praised them for a moment a while back
So I'm looking at some of their newer games, and honestly most if not all of them looks like the kind of game that is impossible to get into unless you played the previous titles. Got any recommendations, that are easy to get into?
I played Disgaea 2 for PSP for the first time a while back and got into it surprisingly easily
The games aren't that hard to get into, so long as your not afraid to grind like hell
For gateway stuff, Disgaea 1 & 2 for PSP are good starts, but overall recommendations include Guided Fate Paradox for PS3, Soul Nomad and the World Eaters for PS2, Makai Kingdom for PS2 & Zettai Hero Project: Unlosing Ranger Vs. Darkdeath Evilman for PSP (Warning: ZHP is their most hardcore grindfest of all time)
Also, NISA (Their American branch) dubbed and publishes a lot of great RPGs and Visuals Novels, so keep an eye out for the NIS logo, its a sure sign of quality and to be MAD MAD MAD~
 

CaitSeith

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Richfeet said:


You saw this batsuit and thought "hmm. it needs more details."
Its like giving spider man more arms just to look more spider-like.
I haven't read the rest of the forum. But I'm almost sure that you know by now that they already did it (in the comics and the animated series... more than once. *shudder*)
 

Kerethos

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Jun 19, 2013
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Neverhoodian said:
Sandwich designed by Squeenix:

Dagwood ain't got nothin' on this.​
It's getting there, but first it needs more color; some muted pink, bright yellow, clean white - colors that stand out. Preferably added with the use of inedible materials, like plastic or painted metal.

After adding some much needed colors you've got to add some useless spikes - making the sandwich extremely difficult to handle. Then wrap it up with at least 2 belts (though more is obviously better), and a plate made mostly out of zippers.

And then add a chocobo at the top, made out of marzipan and lead paint. There: stupidly large sandwich by Square Enix :D
 

otakon17

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Happyninja42 said:
otakon17 said:
"There is nothing for the eyes to hone in on" Yeah, except for the GIANT CRIMSON RED BAT INSIGNIA as his visor!
Yes but is it his eye slit? Is it an entire facial sequence? Is the bottom part of the red bat symbol coming down over where his mouth would be? Or are the peaks of the red wings going up above his head? Where is his face in proportion to that red insignia? I've seen anime armor types that would fit either shape, and you can't freaking tell with this design.

And seriously, if the only thing that you can make out as an identifying mark on the entire suit is a single, small piece of different coloration, on a huge, black amalgamation of angles and lines and pointy bits, is that a good thing? The only thing you can hone in on as you put it, is his face, everything else is an eye strain of extraneous bits and stuff that the Batman wouldn't freaking bother to have because they would be impractical in a fight.
I think at this point it's just an argument of "How well you can tell details apart". Did I think the design was over-the-top? You betcha however I didn't have any issues telling what was what for the most part.
 

Strazdas

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May 28, 2011
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Jim you are wrong about one thing - Square enix is not pushing for graphics. they try to make it as shiny and contrived as they can, but as far as graphic technology actually goes they are dragging behind.

their downfall is, as you say, overcomplocated wierdness. Square enix manages to be the worst company around without having bad PR like EA, and thats a feat to achieve.
 

deadish

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Well, art is subjective ...

While not a fan of it, I don't really mind the overuse of belts and zipper. It's just the way their artists design stuff.

FFXIII sucked not because of the art, it sucked because the plot was a mess, the characters are so-so and the gameplay is poorly paced - which was not surprise given that it was rushed out the door after being stuck in development hell for so long.

Square Enix is a big company. It has many divisions working on multiple projects at once. You can't really paint the whole company with a single brush based on a few of its products.

Graphics are something all game companies have to keep on top of. Yes, Minecraft sold tons despite have horrible graphics, but Minecraft is an outlier. It's hard to get noticed among all the AAA releases if your game looks like crap - it will effectively be DOA.

Just about every major publisher is working on an engine, EA has Frostbite, Ubisoft has Snowdrop ... etc. It's common sense to have in-house engine tech that can be shared across projects, so your individual teams don't have to reinvent the wheel independently.
 

AroLombardi

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See, I thought this was going to be about Lightning and how much like Batman she is (orphan, talks all raspy, tries to sound dark and edgy, comes off as very callous almost always, and tries to work alone or have a young sidekick).

Fair points nonetheless. I played the XIII sub-series and agree about XIII's clusterfuck of a story and the shallow, immemorable cast. But, and I am aware I may be biased, XIII-2 really felt like a gem in the sub-series. Admittedly, the story was still fairly over complex, but Noel... He is still a wonderful character in my opinion. The concept of "last human on earth" in as literal a sense as it was is still a fairly unseen or unexplored concept. And the way they made that relevant to his final fight with Cauis, the most evil shithead in the sub-series, was a pretty good connection (if you chose mercy I mean). I'm not a major fan of the Final Fantasy games, but when I beat XIII-2 I do remember actually spending another dozen hours post-game just to get all the best weapons and beating the most difficult optional bosses. And the Ezio outfit looked pretty great on Noel.
 

Headbiter

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deadish said:
Well, art is subjective ...
Okay, I keep hearing that whenever a product in a creative field is brought up and quite frankly, it's starting to piss me off. Your personal APPRECIATION of art is subjective, yes. Not everyone likes the music of Michael Jackson, the movies by Stanley Kubrick or the written work of William Shakespeare. That is natural.
But here's the thing: While you personally might not find their work enjoyable, you can still comprehend the proficiency of their craftmanship. You can still hear how well composed the music of Michael, how well directed the movies by Stanley and how well-written the stories by William are, even if they're not accomodating to your personal preferences.

And that's the thing people on the web, in their over-tolerance, keep forgetting: art - in all shapes and forms - is still a craft. You can still fuck up. You can still produce utter shit, by objective standards. Or to put it more crass: There are, in fact, people on this planet, who enjoy - literally - to take other people's shit in their mouth. And while these people might genuinly enjoy that, it doesn't change the fact that their eating shit.

So yeah, art may "be subjective" but that subjectivity is NOT equivalent to a letter of indulgence.


Graphics are something all game companies have to keep on top of.
Nope, proovably wrong. That is maybe what people in the industry may spoonfeed themselves constantly but luckily we have decades of gaming history to debunk that myth. A game looking good is a plus, yes, but it is not necessary to create a good and/or succesful game. WarCraft 3: Looked cheap in comparison to the competition. WoW is behind his competition by miles in terms of graphics (although that gap got smaller in recent years). Deus Ex looked like utter shit, graphically, even for its time. Path of Exile falls of massively in comparison to other dungeon crawlers. Yet all these games run and make good money.

If anything, history has proven time and time again, that focusing too much on graphics can lead to quite a disappointment since you just reduced your game to a collection of pointless moving screenshots.
 

Lugardo Sandoval

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You know Jim I fucken love the Final Fantasy series, I have loved them since FF1, But I can't defend this bullshit. I won't say I dislike some of the koo graphics, but it's the story that needs more love. And the game engine sucks, I really like having the chance to plot my next move and explore different places while being rewarded for doing so by getting more experience and loot. Yet all of this has been killed by the direction the series has decided to go. I am greatly disappointed and I have no will to try to cover up nor defend such crap. I can only hope they turn things around and stop this series of blunders.