Jimquisition: Creative Freedom, Strings Attached

[KissingSunlight]

I got a theory that all the criticisms that game developers get about female characters is the reason why you see a lack of diversity. Anytime a game developer puts breasts on a video game character. There are always complaints about how that character is being sexualized and objectified. If I was a game developer and had a good idea about a game with a female protagonist, I would shelve it until people can appreciate the game as a whole. Instead of dealing with people who takes things out of context just to get outraged about something.

 

[carnex]

However, if Rockstar had included a female protagonist - and I'll bet that someone at Rockstar would have been up for writing something like that, if given the chance - then I would be buying GTA 5.

This is reasonable, but I must add one thing.

People would buy game for female protagonist (although not necessarily, Mirrors Edge proves that and it's not a bad game, far from it. When you can?t get a run going it isn't that good, but when you get good and start stringing runs its unique experience in best possible sense) that would be short lived business plan. Once females get more prominent in games, people buying games because of female characters large majority would stop looking at that as special feature. On the other hand writers and creators would not fell as free with female characters as they are with male characters (you basically can't write unacceptable male characters and it's really hard to find things to do to and with male characters which would raise eyebrows of the public if those actions do not involve women and children). So as a long term politics of company those make no sense.

So unless story is about female character, (and specificly FEMALE, so they can avoid being called man in skirt) shoving one in on every corner would be counterproductive for both consumers and creators.

 

[Something Amyss]

No, I'm saying there is not a thing as a playable gendered character. Or at least be defined as non gendered.

But why, if not for the reason I just listed?

I find it a bit unsound to be attacking specific developers for this sort of thing unless their games happen to be misogynist all around and in general. Like Jim said, the developers should have every right to choose what goes in their game.

I'm not sure he was "attacked" for this in the first place. He was asked why there weren't female options in the game. Jim even comments on this calling him hostile or some such (forget the exact word). You're quote-mining Jim, in short.

Making a fuss over puppeteer saving money by including only one protagonist, and choosing a male one for a myriad of potential unknown reasons (perhaps artistic, perhaps marketing, perhaps because most of the developers were male) isn't going to make any huge waves in the push to make video games more female-inclusive. It's inconsequential, wasted effort if you ask me.

Can you point to this happening before his antagonistic response? Because as far as my understanding goes, he was merely asked, as I said above.

Yes, "attacking" people by default is bad, but as far as I can tell, taking the stance that this is what happened with The Puppeteer is folly and out of touch with reality. By all means, prove me wrong if I'm wrong.

But even his own quotes make that look dubious at best.

If it makes no difference why do you care so much? Do you want actual female characters in the games or just something that looks female but acts androgynous? How does that help anyone?

Do you not understand what the word "ostensibly" means? I did put that before the "makes no difference" bit for a reason.

What I "want" is avatar choice in cases where it already supposedly makes no difference. And since that's his argument here, not mine....

 

[Something Amyss]

Why can't I choose to play one? Hmm. Equality.

No, false equivalence. But tell you what. If we start seeing fewer male-only titles, I will fully support your quest for a male protagonist in Mirror's Edge. Until then, however, it's the usual illusion of fairness.

Nah.
I think that probably may be it. Kotaku did an article piece in regards to the whole Dickwolves meme being taken down from Penny Arcade after enough fans bitched at them about it.

At PAX this last week, Mike said he regretted doing that, though. He also said if you were offended by such a thing you shouldn't be reading PA, but he also said he wanted PAX to be an inclusive environment. Which, you know, seems rather contradictory and probably worse than the guy who made the Puppeteer, because he's not claiming he wants to also host an open environment. It's like that old joke: there's two things I can't stand--intolerance and [insert slur for minority here].

Except, you know, it's not a joke. Mike said it apparently in earnest.

And I get it. There's a lot of comedians I don't frequent, for example. Usually because they're not funny, but sometimes they step on my toes. The dickwolves thing didn't really bother me as much as some of the fans of Penny Arcade who went on the attack. But now? Now I'm not sure how I feel. "we want an open environment, now watch while I draw dickwolves because rape jokes are funny and if you don't like it you shouldn't come."

Yeah, kind of a mixed message.

 

[TheMadDoctorsCat]

Did he?

Was I the only one who actually read what this developer SAID? Because to me... he didn't mention freedom of speech, or lack of right to criticise him, or anything else along those lines.

Seriously, I don't get this. It seems like everybody is arguing over a "strawman" that Jim's put up here. And look, I'm a Jimquisition fan, but I just do not get this. At all. This is an interesting debate to have, but it's not relevant to anything the developer is quoted as having said!

I believe the "freedom of speech" crap tends to come from people who come out in defense of the developer, not the developer themselves. At least, that's where I usually see people using the term as improperly as their little, ignorant hearts possibly can to throw up, in their mind, an absolute defense against any criticism that can be levied against the developer's words.

But why would anybody but the developer even CARE? The guy has defended his right to make the game that he wants to make, the way that he wants to make it... and done pretty much nothing else.

This is more than my pore little brain can comprehend.

EDIT: It's also clearly the developer himself that Jim quotes, the developer's attitude that Jim is critical of. Not one of those situations like the fan backlash against a reviewer who dared criticise the art style of Dragon Crown's female characters' breasts. (on which subject I wholeheartedly agree with Jim.)

 

[TheMadDoctorsCat]

This is the reason why I like Jim... he stated his facts about the developer being able to make whatever he/she wants but 'however', they also can be criticized for their own work if questioned.

It was a very fair, agreeable, and well presented argument which I shall admire and take note of whenever possible. Great video plus you should only have a female protagonist if it fits the story of the game (or if you can customize your character to be anything.)

My objection to this is that Jim suggests that the developer can't take criticism. Well, I don't know if the developer can take criticism or not, but there's nothing in what Jim quotes from the developer to suggest that he can't. That's what I call a "strawman" argument.

 

[Frank_Sinatra_]

Why should a game be criticised or scrutinised simply because it doesn't have a female protagonist?

Why shouldn't it?

I think what Ziggy is trying to get at is perhaps some of the criticism while in the form of a question is coming off as a demand.

This whole issue is rather irritating to me because it seems like a lot of parties involved are speaking past each other.
One side wants inclusion but the other wants to do whatever in the hell they feel like but when they hear each other both sound hostile to each other.

My thoughts as to WHY there are so many men is the same as its always been though.
Regardless that more and more women are joining the gaming community (and I'm talking about hard core gaming) males still outnumber them and developers will push towards their main demographic.

For sake of argument though even if in the hard core sphere women outnumber men, we have to realize that the industry doesn't turn on a dime. This'll take time, and the best way to offer change is to vote with your wallet.

EDIT:
I'd just like to add that the quote from Gavin Moore comes off not as snobby, but as someone who is very tired of this whole pseudo-progressive nonsense going on.
It strikes me of the quote from Erin Pizzey when she meets someone who says they're a "woman with attitude." Pizzey just replies, "Could you kindly not? It's very tiring."
Moore comes off as a Pizzey to me. He's just so damn tired of all this BS.

 

[Rebel_Raven]

Thank the gods, what ever dominion they may hold, for Jim, and his work ethic, and for allowing him camera time to say what must be said for those that should hear it.

Honestly, I fear "vote with your wallets" is not going to work. If those clammoring for female protagonists are as niche as some love to believe, then how big of a dent will be made? Our votes won't be the majority in the whole majority rules world.

Perhaps with all the financial woes the gaming industry has been having, maybe people are voting weith their wallets already? Maybe it's why people for female protagonists seem so niche coz there's some vicious cycle whre the industry decided to abandon female protagonists in reasonable depictions, so female protagonist seekers stopped buying. Because they dropped off when the game industry decided women as protagonists wasn't worth making for some reason.

It seems more like we are protesting with our wallets.

Honestly the process is frikking frustrating only buying games with femle protagonists. It aughta be obvious tht these releases are pitifully slim compared to the rest of the gaming releases in number, and variety, respecially compared to guy only games.
The gender option is generally not quite the same as a female protagonist as gender will pretty much not matter at all in the plot. Sometimes a different point of view is appreciated.

Jim's right. Developers shouldn't be pressured to make something unless it's what they want regardless of where the pressure comes from.

And I stand by my right to protest with my wallet, and criticize those in the gaming industry that lack the courage to make a female protagonist as opposed to maintaining their vision, the people of the industry against female protagonists, and so forth.

You don't want to make a female protagonist? Fine. I'm not likely interested in what you made. Don't underestimate the power of being inclusive. Still, I'm not going to demand a game be changed.

To those people who don't understand why women want to play as women, well, they aren't catered to worth a damn, obviously, so they want it more. There's likely a lot more reasons here.

Guys might appreciate the point of view a women can provide via games, it might be novelty, it might be the near inescapeable alluring appearance women get, it might be a lot of things in any combination.

In the end, though, does it matter if you understand why female protagonists are pined after? What having more female protagonists mean is a larger variety of protagonists, period. Maybe a bigger variety of games? Is this a bad thing?

And lets not pretend it's impossible for guys to write for women, and I wonder how badly they want to hire women?
Lara Croft, Samus, every woman in Resident Evil, and a great deal of other women in other genres say otherwise. The capability for great female protagonists are there. And so are the people that want to stand in the way of them.

I'm not saying every man can write for women, and I understand that, but to pretend it's universal is absurd.

 

[DrunkOnEstus]

If I were making an indie game like the puppeteer, I would have a strong urge to create a female protagonist (my Saint's Row, Dark Souls, Dragon Age, and Mass Effect characters are female), but I would feel that I'd only insult the female audience because I can't fully relate to their experience. I'm married and I still don't think that I could adequately create a female protagonist without creating some flak like the "Other M" fiasco (though probably not that bad). I see no issue with the demands for more games featuring female PCs, but I can't get my head around damning a game that already exists for not adding to the tally.

There's an overwhelming amount of dudes who make games, and they're more than likely going to craft an experience that speaks from their overwhelmingly male life. Combine that with publishers who insist that PCs be male and do their focus testing with 12-15 year old boys, and it's not hard to see how we got here. I'm not saying that's how it should be, but it is how it is.

It's also probably best to remember that many game creators have no political or sexual agenda when creating their game. Video games may have a wave of people asking these questions compared to movies or books, but I like to think at the end of the day that a lot of these games aren't meant to be taken so seriously as we insist they should be. Sometimes it's just fun, or to blow off steam, or relax, not to make a political statement. But that's art. Not everyone will like it and that's the best and worst thing about it.

 

[Canadamus Prime]

The real question is would you rather have a male character/protagonist or a poorly written shoehorned in female character/protagonist?

 

[Helmholtz Watson]

After PAX and what happened there, I think we can all agree that this needed to be said.

I'm hesitant to ask, but what happened at PAX?

 

[Nurb]

But even when the protagonist is a woman, groups still complain about that woman not being "____ ENOUGH" and accussations of sexism and blah blah blah get thrown around.

Remember when a group of people brought up the female protagonist in "The last of us" wasn't "stron and independent enough"? GTA features characters who are bad from the beginning... I can't imagine the outcry from groups if a female main character was an evil murderer that killed people just to get ahead.

I'm not saying questions can't be asked, I'm just saying you can't give any complaint regarding female characters a free pass to legitimacy, you have to look at where it's coming from and who's making it because nothing will ever be enough for some people.

http://www.escapistmagazine.com/news/view/126648-Naughty-Dog-Responds-to-The-Last-of-Us-Sexism-Claims

After PAX and what happened there, I think we can all agree that this needed to be said.

I'm hesitant to ask, but what happened at PAX?

From what I hear nerds and conventions are the most dangerous things in the world to women.

 

[Nicy]

Surely fostering reasonable discourse among a populous that views any and all criticism as intentional insult and reacts to any and all perceived insult with direct hostility and/or outright violence MUST be Mr. Sterling's divine mandate from the Fantasy Football Gods. I am humbled and encouraged by your actions and words on a weekly basis, Mr. Sterling. You give me hope that reasonable people exist in significant quantities to make the world a more pleasant place to find ourselves. Thank the Fantasy Football Gods that Mr. Sterling continues on his mission to civilize even in the face of debilitating illness.

 

[Rebel_Raven]

But even when the protagonist is a woman, groups still complain about that woman not being "____ ENOUGH" and accussations of sexism and blah blah blah get thrown around.

Remember when a group of people brought up the female protagonist in "The last of us" wasn't "stron and independent enough"? GTA features characters who are bad from the beginning... I can't imagine the outcry from groups if a female main character was an evil murderer that killed people just to get ahead.

I'm not saying questions can't be asked, I'm just saying you can't give any complaint regarding female characters a free pass to legitimacy, you have to look at where it's coming from and who's making it because nothing will ever be enough for some people.

http://www.escapistmagazine.com/news/view/126648-Naughty-Dog-Responds-to-The-Last-of-Us-Sexism-Claims

After PAX and what happened there, I think we can all agree that this needed to be said.

I'm hesitant to ask, but what happened at PAX?

From what I hear nerds and conventions are the most dangerous things in the world to women.

And that's why we need a variety of women. While some are bad, and not "____ enough" there'll be other women that are "_____ enough" to pull away heat, and create multiple opinions on female representation instead of a few lightning rods.

Seriously, if there wasn't so few female protagonists they wouldn't get so much heat.
Think abou it. People complain about Kratos types but that's not all there is to male protagonists so Kratos isn't harped on too heavily. Imagine if Kratos replaced the Mario Bros, Link, Master Chief, Nathan drake and pretty much every major male protagonist ever then, now, and forever? People would likely get tired of such shallow representation before the end of the year. That's pretty akin to women's representation in videogames. Women's representation is generally pretty shallow. The reason the Dragon's Crown Sorceress caught hell is coz she's pretty much the standard bearer. Aside from her, we might get the rare "nathan drakes" in Nilin and Lara.
And with so few female representatives it's really easy to focus on some figures out there.

Sure Ellie is not the typical female protagonist we get if only because of her age, but aside from her what variety do women get, and how often?
And we only temporarily play as Ellie. It's not like we get to play as her for the entire game, which kinda takes wind out of the sails.

 

[bug_of_war]

I think, quite honestly, picking a male hero is just the way most men think, and most game development teams are predominately men. They're men; they make games with male heroes. I don't think, for the most part, that there's any malice or agenda there... it's just the common "males are the de facto hero" stereotypes that are so fully ingrained in our minds and culture.

I remember reading some interviews with female Bioware team members who said that, ultimately, they got a bit tired of having to ask the question "but what if the player is female?" and having the men on the team having to actively remember that, yes, MaleShep wasn't the only gender, and male players weren't the only audience.

It's basically innocent ignorance. Unless someone, like myself, asks a developer "well, what about me?" they won't remember or even consider heroes of the less-represented gender.

Personally, though, I'll admit that as a girl gamer I'm disappointed by GTA sticking to men only, especially when Saints Row is letting me be an amazingly awesome female gang lord.

It's for the reason you pointed out that I am completely apathetic to this whole line of questioning. I agree female characters should become more prevalent, but right now when it comes to a regular, not created character I really just feel bored by the whole, "Why not *insert gender/sexuality/species here". It just gets to the point where the only answer is, "because." and that just seems too repetitive to me.

As for Grand Theft Auto...I'll admit the thought never crossed my mind that the protagonist could be a female, and I guess it's due to every game in the series having male characters.

 

[bug_of_war]

1. The answer is the Egg.

2. You can't force it[sub](unless you blackmail/pay off the developers and publishers I guess)[/sub], but you can always ask them nicely.

Thank God for Jim.

1. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1a8pI65emDE

Depending on how you look either are correct, so it still fits for my comparison of the topic.

2. As Jim said, you can ask them "Why" but not ask them to make a game for YOU.

 

[seditary]

My problem with this is the question.

'Why must it be a boy?'. Surely it should be 'Why did you decide to have a male character?' instead.

 

[bug_of_war]

I agree completely. And I think there should be less of a focus on attacking games that have a male protagonist and more praising of games that have a female protagonist. If you want female protagonists, how about showing games that have them some support? I heard that Remember Me was pretty good, and I look forward to playing it when I get some breathing room in my backlog, but why is nobody talking about this game? All I ever see is "this game's developers are misogynistic for making the protagonist male" and "that game's developers are misogynistic for making the protagonist male". Honestly, I feel like too many people out there just want to ***** and ***** and ***** and ***** until every game ever released has a female protagonist.

I've never heard a company called misogynistic for having a male character, but I have seen developer's being called misogynistic for putting their female character in a pose anything other than blank faced, facing forward, wearing a coat and track pants. I remember a while back on this very site I was arguing with one person that the pose they put the protagonist in on the cover of the game Remember Me wasn't sexualised. Somehow they thought that her back to the camera drew the consumer's eye directly to her ass, it wasn't the first time someone said that, and it wasn't the last. I think some people can be too sensitive, and it one of the reasons I don't associate myself as a gamer because I'm quite sick of most of the crap that the few vocal minority spew.

 

[VanQ]

Why can't I choose to play one? Hmm. Equality.

No, false equivalence. But tell you what. If we start seeing fewer male-only titles, I will fully support your quest for a male protagonist in Mirror's Edge. Until then, however, it's the usual illusion of fairness.

You know, this is why I can't take you seriously. You've still yet to give me a reason why male only protagonists are an inherently bad thing. I'd much rather a well written male protagonist than a shoehorned in female one. Calling something false equivilence because it doesn't suit your agenda just makes it look like you're pushing for your own agenda and not paying attention to anything else. In your demand for more female characters you've developed tunnel vision and dissmiss any argument that isn't your own. I see you all around the site, taking it upon yourself to personally dismiss anyone that doesn't bend to the will of the mighty female.

And honestly? Illusion of fairness? What a load of bull.
We have games like Tales of Xillia breaking its tradition of male only protagonists by allowing you to choose to play the game from either Jude or Millia's point of view. We had P3P a few years back that did the same. We have games like Tomb Raider where the female lead goes through all sorts or trials and tribulations. Assassin's Creed: Liberation has a fantastic playable female; Aveline (oh but that's rigth, handheld games don't count). Every Borderlands game has female protagonists and most of them are pretty cool. Every single Atelier since the beginning of time except one has had absolutely excellent, young female protagonists. Bayonetta has a powerful and domineering protagonist. And I would never demand that they put in a male character in any of these games (that don't already have one) ever, because I'd rather a well written protagonist than a shoehorned in one or one that was put in simply to meet some politically correct agenda.

I could go on but my point is that games with playable female protagonists aren't as rare as you would make them out to be. They may not be on exactly equal terms in numbers throughout the entire history of games but in the past few years the ratio of playable men and women has begun to even out significantly. We're slowly getting there, we're seeing more and more female playable characters. If you want to accelerate the process then stop ignoring my main point from the last post. Vote with your wallet.

And stop calling them "male-only titles." I have never seen a single game on the store shelf with a "This title was intended for male audiences only" label. There is nothing stopping women from playing games with male protagonists, just like nothing will stop me from playing games with female only protagonists.

Now if you'll excuse me, I need to go smack some monsters with my all female party in Atelier Totori. Good day to you.

 

[Makabriel]

*snip*

Honestly the process is frikking frustrating only buying games with femle protagonists. It aughta be obvious tht these releases are pitifully slim compared to the rest of the gaming releases in number, and variety, respecially compared to guy only games.
The gender option is generally not quite the same as a female protagonist as gender will pretty much not matter at all in the plot. Sometimes a different point of view is appreciated.

Jim's right. Developers shouldn't be pressured to make something unless it's what they want regardless of where the pressure comes from.

And I stand by my right to protest with my wallet, and criticize those in the gaming industry that lack the courage to make a female protagonist as opposed to maintaining their vision, the people of the industry against female protagonists, and so forth.

You don't want to make a female protagonist? Fine. I'm not likely interested in what you made. Don't underestimate the power of being inclusive. Still, I'm not going to demand a game be changed.

To those people who don't understand why women want to play as women, well, they aren't catered to worth a damn, obviously, so they want it more. There's likely a lot more reasons here.

Guys might appreciate the point of view a women can provide via games, it might be novelty, it might be the near inescapeable alluring appearance women get, it might be a lot of things in any combination.

In the end, though, does it matter if you understand why female protagonists are pined after? What having more female protagonists mean is a larger variety of protagonists, period. Maybe a bigger variety of games? Is this a bad thing?

*snip*

DO you watch movies with Male leads? Do you read books with Male points of view? Do you watch TV shows with Male points of view?

Why are you only interested in a female perspective Video Game?