My objection to this is that Jim suggests that the developer can't take criticism. Well, I don't know if the developer can take criticism or not, but there's nothing in what Jim quotes from the developer to suggest that he can't. That's what I call a "strawman" argument.Caramel Frappe said:
Jimquisition: Creative Freedom, Strings Attached
- Thread starter Jimothy Sterling
- Start date
I think what Ziggy is trying to get at is perhaps some of the criticism while in the form of a question is coming off as a demand.Jimothy Sterling said:
This whole issue is rather irritating to me because it seems like a lot of parties involved are speaking past each other.
One side wants inclusion but the other wants to do whatever in the hell they feel like but when they hear each other both sound hostile to each other.
My thoughts as to WHY there are so many men is the same as its always been though.
Regardless that more and more women are joining the gaming community (and I'm talking about hard core gaming) males still outnumber them and developers will push towards their main demographic.
For sake of argument though even if in the hard core sphere women outnumber men, we have to realize that the industry doesn't turn on a dime. This'll take time, and the best way to offer change is to vote with your wallet.
EDIT:
I'd just like to add that the quote from Gavin Moore comes off not as snobby, but as someone who is very tired of this whole pseudo-progressive nonsense going on.
It strikes me of the quote from Erin Pizzey when she meets someone who says they're a "woman with attitude." Pizzey just replies, "Could you kindly not? It's very tiring."
Moore comes off as a Pizzey to me. He's just so damn tired of all this BS.
Thank the gods, what ever dominion they may hold, for Jim, and his work ethic, and for allowing him camera time to say what must be said for those that should hear it.
Honestly, I fear "vote with your wallets" is not going to work. If those clammoring for female protagonists are as niche as some love to believe, then how big of a dent will be made? Our votes won't be the majority in the whole majority rules world.
Perhaps with all the financial woes the gaming industry has been having, maybe people are voting weith their wallets already? Maybe it's why people for female protagonists seem so niche coz there's some vicious cycle whre the industry decided to abandon female protagonists in reasonable depictions, so female protagonist seekers stopped buying. Because they dropped off when the game industry decided women as protagonists wasn't worth making for some reason.
It seems more like we are protesting with our wallets.
Honestly the process is frikking frustrating only buying games with femle protagonists. It aughta be obvious tht these releases are pitifully slim compared to the rest of the gaming releases in number, and variety, respecially compared to guy only games.
The gender option is generally not quite the same as a female protagonist as gender will pretty much not matter at all in the plot. Sometimes a different point of view is appreciated.
Jim's right. Developers shouldn't be pressured to make something unless it's what they want regardless of where the pressure comes from.
And I stand by my right to protest with my wallet, and criticize those in the gaming industry that lack the courage to make a female protagonist as opposed to maintaining their vision, the people of the industry against female protagonists, and so forth.
You don't want to make a female protagonist? Fine. I'm not likely interested in what you made. Don't underestimate the power of being inclusive. Still, I'm not going to demand a game be changed.
To those people who don't understand why women want to play as women, well, they aren't catered to worth a damn, obviously, so they want it more. There's likely a lot more reasons here.
Guys might appreciate the point of view a women can provide via games, it might be novelty, it might be the near inescapeable alluring appearance women get, it might be a lot of things in any combination.
In the end, though, does it matter if you understand why female protagonists are pined after? What having more female protagonists mean is a larger variety of protagonists, period. Maybe a bigger variety of games? Is this a bad thing?
And lets not pretend it's impossible for guys to write for women, and I wonder how badly they want to hire women?
Lara Croft, Samus, every woman in Resident Evil, and a great deal of other women in other genres say otherwise. The capability for great female protagonists are there. And so are the people that want to stand in the way of them.
I'm not saying every man can write for women, and I understand that, but to pretend it's universal is absurd.
Honestly, I fear "vote with your wallets" is not going to work. If those clammoring for female protagonists are as niche as some love to believe, then how big of a dent will be made? Our votes won't be the majority in the whole majority rules world.
Perhaps with all the financial woes the gaming industry has been having, maybe people are voting weith their wallets already? Maybe it's why people for female protagonists seem so niche coz there's some vicious cycle whre the industry decided to abandon female protagonists in reasonable depictions, so female protagonist seekers stopped buying. Because they dropped off when the game industry decided women as protagonists wasn't worth making for some reason.
It seems more like we are protesting with our wallets.
Honestly the process is frikking frustrating only buying games with femle protagonists. It aughta be obvious tht these releases are pitifully slim compared to the rest of the gaming releases in number, and variety, respecially compared to guy only games.
The gender option is generally not quite the same as a female protagonist as gender will pretty much not matter at all in the plot. Sometimes a different point of view is appreciated.
Jim's right. Developers shouldn't be pressured to make something unless it's what they want regardless of where the pressure comes from.
And I stand by my right to protest with my wallet, and criticize those in the gaming industry that lack the courage to make a female protagonist as opposed to maintaining their vision, the people of the industry against female protagonists, and so forth.
You don't want to make a female protagonist? Fine. I'm not likely interested in what you made. Don't underestimate the power of being inclusive. Still, I'm not going to demand a game be changed.
To those people who don't understand why women want to play as women, well, they aren't catered to worth a damn, obviously, so they want it more. There's likely a lot more reasons here.
Guys might appreciate the point of view a women can provide via games, it might be novelty, it might be the near inescapeable alluring appearance women get, it might be a lot of things in any combination.
In the end, though, does it matter if you understand why female protagonists are pined after? What having more female protagonists mean is a larger variety of protagonists, period. Maybe a bigger variety of games? Is this a bad thing?
And lets not pretend it's impossible for guys to write for women, and I wonder how badly they want to hire women?
Lara Croft, Samus, every woman in Resident Evil, and a great deal of other women in other genres say otherwise. The capability for great female protagonists are there. And so are the people that want to stand in the way of them.
I'm not saying every man can write for women, and I understand that, but to pretend it's universal is absurd.
If I were making an indie game like the puppeteer, I would have a strong urge to create a female protagonist (my Saint's Row, Dark Souls, Dragon Age, and Mass Effect characters are female), but I would feel that I'd only insult the female audience because I can't fully relate to their experience. I'm married and I still don't think that I could adequately create a female protagonist without creating some flak like the "Other M" fiasco (though probably not that bad). I see no issue with the demands for more games featuring female PCs, but I can't get my head around damning a game that already exists for not adding to the tally.
There's an overwhelming amount of dudes who make games, and they're more than likely going to craft an experience that speaks from their overwhelmingly male life. Combine that with publishers who insist that PCs be male and do their focus testing with 12-15 year old boys, and it's not hard to see how we got here. I'm not saying that's how it should be, but it is how it is.
It's also probably best to remember that many game creators have no political or sexual agenda when creating their game. Video games may have a wave of people asking these questions compared to movies or books, but I like to think at the end of the day that a lot of these games aren't meant to be taken so seriously as we insist they should be. Sometimes it's just fun, or to blow off steam, or relax, not to make a political statement. But that's art. Not everyone will like it and that's the best and worst thing about it.
There's an overwhelming amount of dudes who make games, and they're more than likely going to craft an experience that speaks from their overwhelmingly male life. Combine that with publishers who insist that PCs be male and do their focus testing with 12-15 year old boys, and it's not hard to see how we got here. I'm not saying that's how it should be, but it is how it is.
It's also probably best to remember that many game creators have no political or sexual agenda when creating their game. Video games may have a wave of people asking these questions compared to movies or books, but I like to think at the end of the day that a lot of these games aren't meant to be taken so seriously as we insist they should be. Sometimes it's just fun, or to blow off steam, or relax, not to make a political statement. But that's art. Not everyone will like it and that's the best and worst thing about it.
The real question is would you rather have a male character/protagonist or a poorly written shoehorned in female character/protagonist?
But even when the protagonist is a woman, groups still complain about that woman not being "____ ENOUGH" and accussations of sexism and blah blah blah get thrown around.
Remember when a group of people brought up the female protagonist in "The last of us" wasn't "stron and independent enough"? GTA features characters who are bad from the beginning... I can't imagine the outcry from groups if a female main character was an evil murderer that killed people just to get ahead.
I'm not saying questions can't be asked, I'm just saying you can't give any complaint regarding female characters a free pass to legitimacy, you have to look at where it's coming from and who's making it because nothing will ever be enough for some people.
http://www.escapistmagazine.com/news/view/126648-Naughty-Dog-Responds-to-The-Last-of-Us-Sexism-Claims
Remember when a group of people brought up the female protagonist in "The last of us" wasn't "stron and independent enough"? GTA features characters who are bad from the beginning... I can't imagine the outcry from groups if a female main character was an evil murderer that killed people just to get ahead.
I'm not saying questions can't be asked, I'm just saying you can't give any complaint regarding female characters a free pass to legitimacy, you have to look at where it's coming from and who's making it because nothing will ever be enough for some people.
http://www.escapistmagazine.com/news/view/126648-Naughty-Dog-Responds-to-The-Last-of-Us-Sexism-Claims
From what I hear nerds and conventions are the most dangerous things in the world to women.Helmholtz Watson said:
Surely fostering reasonable discourse among a populous that views any and all criticism as intentional insult and reacts to any and all perceived insult with direct hostility and/or outright violence MUST be Mr. Sterling's divine mandate from the Fantasy Football Gods. I am humbled and encouraged by your actions and words on a weekly basis, Mr. Sterling. You give me hope that reasonable people exist in significant quantities to make the world a more pleasant place to find ourselves. Thank the Fantasy Football Gods that Mr. Sterling continues on his mission to civilize even in the face of debilitating illness.
And that's why we need a variety of women. While some are bad, and not "____ enough" there'll be other women that are "_____ enough" to pull away heat, and create multiple opinions on female representation instead of a few lightning rods.Nurb said:
Seriously, if there wasn't so few female protagonists they wouldn't get so much heat.
Think abou it. People complain about Kratos types but that's not all there is to male protagonists so Kratos isn't harped on too heavily. Imagine if Kratos replaced the Mario Bros, Link, Master Chief, Nathan drake and pretty much every major male protagonist ever then, now, and forever? People would likely get tired of such shallow representation before the end of the year. That's pretty akin to women's representation in videogames. Women's representation is generally pretty shallow. The reason the Dragon's Crown Sorceress caught hell is coz she's pretty much the standard bearer. Aside from her, we might get the rare "nathan drakes" in Nilin and Lara.
And with so few female representatives it's really easy to focus on some figures out there.
Sure Ellie is not the typical female protagonist we get if only because of her age, but aside from her what variety do women get, and how often?
And we only temporarily play as Ellie. It's not like we get to play as her for the entire game, which kinda takes wind out of the sails.
It's for the reason you pointed out that I am completely apathetic to this whole line of questioning. I agree female characters should become more prevalent, but right now when it comes to a regular, not created character I really just feel bored by the whole, "Why not *insert gender/sexuality/species here". It just gets to the point where the only answer is, "because." and that just seems too repetitive to me.Trishbot said:
As for Grand Theft Auto...I'll admit the thought never crossed my mind that the protagonist could be a female, and I guess it's due to every game in the series having male characters.
1. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1a8pI65emDEImp Emissary said:
Depending on how you look either are correct, so it still fits for my comparison of the topic.
2. As Jim said, you can ask them "Why" but not ask them to make a game for YOU.
I've never heard a company called misogynistic for having a male character, but I have seen developer's being called misogynistic for putting their female character in a pose anything other than blank faced, facing forward, wearing a coat and track pants. I remember a while back on this very site I was arguing with one person that the pose they put the protagonist in on the cover of the game Remember Me wasn't sexualised. Somehow they thought that her back to the camera drew the consumer's eye directly to her ass, it wasn't the first time someone said that, and it wasn't the last. I think some people can be too sensitive, and it one of the reasons I don't associate myself as a gamer because I'm quite sick of most of the crap that the few vocal minority spew.mjc0961 said:
You know, this is why I can't take you seriously. You've still yet to give me a reason why male only protagonists are an inherently bad thing. I'd much rather a well written male protagonist than a shoehorned in female one. Calling something false equivilence because it doesn't suit your agenda just makes it look like you're pushing for your own agenda and not paying attention to anything else. In your demand for more female characters you've developed tunnel vision and dissmiss any argument that isn't your own. I see you all around the site, taking it upon yourself to personally dismiss anyone that doesn't bend to the will of the mighty female.Zachary Amaranth said:
And honestly? Illusion of fairness? What a load of bull.
We have games like Tales of Xillia breaking its tradition of male only protagonists by allowing you to choose to play the game from either Jude or Millia's point of view. We had P3P a few years back that did the same. We have games like Tomb Raider where the female lead goes through all sorts or trials and tribulations. Assassin's Creed: Liberation has a fantastic playable female; Aveline (oh but that's rigth, handheld games don't count). Every Borderlands game has female protagonists and most of them are pretty cool. Every single Atelier since the beginning of time except one has had absolutely excellent, young female protagonists. Bayonetta has a powerful and domineering protagonist. And I would never demand that they put in a male character in any of these games (that don't already have one) ever, because I'd rather a well written protagonist than a shoehorned in one or one that was put in simply to meet some politically correct agenda.
I could go on but my point is that games with playable female protagonists aren't as rare as you would make them out to be. They may not be on exactly equal terms in numbers throughout the entire history of games but in the past few years the ratio of playable men and women has begun to even out significantly. We're slowly getting there, we're seeing more and more female playable characters. If you want to accelerate the process then stop ignoring my main point from the last post. Vote with your wallet.
And stop calling them "male-only titles." I have never seen a single game on the store shelf with a "This title was intended for male audiences only" label. There is nothing stopping women from playing games with male protagonists, just like nothing will stop me from playing games with female only protagonists.
Now if you'll excuse me, I need to go smack some monsters with my all female party in Atelier Totori. Good day to you.
bug_of_war said:
HA! Science is funny. Anyway.:0 WHA!?
Of course you, Jim, and whoever else can ask someone/some people to make a game[sub](if you do it in a polite way)[/sub].
And then those people can say no, sure, maybe later, why do you want us to make that game, and pineapple.
What can't be done is demanding them to make a game, and expecting them to make it.
pineapple.
I do believe your words spoke louder than your tone, sir. In fact, in a lot of your videos you do often sound a bit angry (if you'll excuse the amateur criticism here). This video, however, your tone was more lucid and calm. It really helped convey a neutral and (dare I say it at risk of causing a sensation of insult) very well thought out topic for this week.Jimothy Sterling said:
Please understand, I get that all of your videos are well thought out. I don't mean it in terms, "I maek vidy-oh an put on int*urwebz!!11!" Rather, this video went the extra mile (or kilometer) to express two different, respected views.
And for that, I thank you.