Jimquisition: Creative Freedom, Strings Attached

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Imp_Emissary

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bug_of_war said:
Imp Emissary said:
1. The answer is the Egg.

2. You can't force it[sub](unless you blackmail/pay off the developers and publishers I guess)[/sub], but you can always ask them nicely.

Thank God for Jim.
1. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1a8pI65emDE

Depending on how you look either are correct, so it still fits for my comparison of the topic.

2. As Jim said, you can ask them "Why" but not ask them to make a game for YOU.
:D HA! Science is funny. Anyway.

:0 WHA!?

Of course you, Jim, and whoever else can ask someone/some people to make a game[sub](if you do it in a polite way)[/sub].

And then those people can say no, sure, maybe later, why do you want us to make that game, and pineapple.

What can't be done is demanding them to make a game, and expecting them to make it.
pineapple.
 

Olas

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Am I the only one who really just doesn't care that much if the protagonist is a male or female and don't understand why people make such a big deal about it either way?
 

omnifarious

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Jimothy Sterling said:
Hades said:
You sound a bit weird today Jim. Still suffering from Pax Flu?
I recorded this on Friday when I was possibly at my worst. I almost didn't record as I was choking on my own filth while trying to talk. Sorry it was so noticeable in the final recording, I did my best, and Friday was basically my deadline.
I do believe your words spoke louder than your tone, sir. In fact, in a lot of your videos you do often sound a bit angry (if you'll excuse the amateur criticism here). This video, however, your tone was more lucid and calm. It really helped convey a neutral and (dare I say it at risk of causing a sensation of insult) very well thought out topic for this week.


Please understand, I get that all of your videos are well thought out. I don't mean it in terms, "I maek vidy-oh an put on int*urwebz!!11!" Rather, this video went the extra mile (or kilometer) to express two different, respected views.


And for that, I thank you.
 

Mahoshonen

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Sutter Cane said:
Jimothy Sterling said:
ZiggyE said:
Why should a game be criticised or scrutinised simply because it doesn't have a female protagonist?
Why shouldn't it?
because there's nothing inherently wrong with telling a story about a guy. The problem with there not being enough good female playable characters in games is an issue because it's a trend, not because having a male protagonist is bad. I mean if I end up staying with someone who cooks spaghetti for dinner every night for 2 weeks, i'd almost certainly get sick of it, but that doesn't mean that choosing to make spaghetti for your evening meal is a bad choice. Criticizing a game for simply choosing to have a male protagonist is basically like criticizing a different friend's cooking skills simply because he chose to make spaghetti in the previous scenario.
The problem is more like every restaurant in the neighborhood cooks nothing but spaghetti, and while it's very good spaghetti, you're going to get tired of it. But the moment you ask the cook to make something other than spaghetti, all of his fans blast you for trying to dictate what he makes, and say that if you don't like it, then go to another restaurant (ignoring the fact that they only cook spaghetti too, natch).
 

Rebel_Raven

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Makabriel said:
Rebel_Raven said:
*snip*

Honestly the process is frikking frustrating only buying games with femle protagonists. It aughta be obvious tht these releases are pitifully slim compared to the rest of the gaming releases in number, and variety, respecially compared to guy only games.
The gender option is generally not quite the same as a female protagonist as gender will pretty much not matter at all in the plot. Sometimes a different point of view is appreciated.

Jim's right. Developers shouldn't be pressured to make something unless it's what they want regardless of where the pressure comes from.

And I stand by my right to protest with my wallet, and criticize those in the gaming industry that lack the courage to make a female protagonist as opposed to maintaining their vision, the people of the industry against female protagonists, and so forth.

You don't want to make a female protagonist? Fine. I'm not likely interested in what you made. Don't underestimate the power of being inclusive. Still, I'm not going to demand a game be changed.

To those people who don't understand why women want to play as women, well, they aren't catered to worth a damn, obviously, so they want it more. There's likely a lot more reasons here.

Guys might appreciate the point of view a women can provide via games, it might be novelty, it might be the near inescapeable alluring appearance women get, it might be a lot of things in any combination.

In the end, though, does it matter if you understand why female protagonists are pined after? What having more female protagonists mean is a larger variety of protagonists, period. Maybe a bigger variety of games? Is this a bad thing?

*snip*
DO you watch movies with Male leads? Do you read books with Male points of view? Do you watch TV shows with Male points of view?

Why are you only interested in a female perspective Video Game?
First off, Yes, yes, and yes... in that order. :p

Videogames are an interactive medium. The character acts with my will. That said a videogame protagonist is easier to relate to because they start to share the player's morals, goals, and decisions. You are taking the trip to the end of the game with them, and as them in some levels.

You just don't do that in most books (aside form pick your own adventure, but that's still pretty limited), in movies, in TV shows, and so forth. You have absolutely no real say in what happens in those mediums. It's a different experience.
More importantly, movies, books, Television, and so forth cater to both genders pretty equally. Waaaaaaaaay more than videogames.
Books have the romance novels people liked to bash me over the head with as an equivalent to videogames as a whole among other strong female presenses, movies have the Resident Evil series which had a powerful female protagonist, as well as chick flicks (A surprising amount written by men, or directed by men), TV has Lost Girl, and other shows with women worth watching.
Those mediums are far more prone to have an actual team where men, and women work together as equals. As none are playable, the importance of the characters gets more balanced as there's less emphasis on one single person.
And, I'd say, more often than videogames, these mediums are more mature, and are more reliant on writing.

TV, Movies, and Books don't really need my focus. Videogames need to catch up in representation, and diversity.

P.S.
I'm not sure I ever heard of any medium outside of videogames where the protagonist's gender was forcibly changed, or their ability to have a love interest was dampened, if not removed from the plot. Videogames seem to have problems all their own, and a good many more aimed at female representation, and female gamers.
 

Battle Catman

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uanime5 said:
Battle Catman said:
I wonder how many people who are defending game developers like Hideo Kojima and saying, "It's their game! They can do what they want! They shouldn't have to change it! If you don't like it, don't play it!" also pitched a fit and demanded BioWare change the ending of Mass Effect 3.
There is a difference between complaining about a game because of something they didn't add (not adding a female character) and complaining about something they did do (poorly written ending in Mass Effect 3). The former is the desire of the player, while the latter is the fault of the developer.
But who is judging what is "poor?" Why is the developer at fault for doing what they wanted to in one case (BioWare) but defended in another (Puppeteer)?
 

gridsleep

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So, Jim Sterling is the Kwisatz Hederach? Comparisons with Baron Harkonen notwithstanding.
There would be fewer complaints about not being able to play as an alternate gender/color/race/creed/national origin &c. if there were other equivalent games that provided that ability. Is it true, as Jim says, that the game industry as a whole in consensus is denying developers the right to make female protagonists if they so choose? That would indeed be censorship in the extreme and possibly even fodder for some kind of class action lawsuit, methinks. Yeah, let's make this really ugly. Get the lawyers in on it.
 

Korten12

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Rebel_Raven said:
The only problem I have is that it seems you put gender above personality. You say you relate more to female characters, but wouldn't you relate more to a person who is more like you, regardless of gender? Gender is a defining point, but it's not what completely defines a person. It's just one part.
 

Amir Kondori

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All the whinging in the world won't increase the number of female playable characters in video games. The only thing that will is the increase in indie games or the change in buying habits of gamers.

The fact is that publishers see a real difference between sales of AAA games with female leads and those with male leads. There could be multiple reasons for this discrepancy but it is real, to the publishers at least. Until that changes expect AAA games to be as male dominated, at least in terms of lead characters, for the foreseeable future.

As the Dead Island bust showed, publishers don't care how many hundreds of people complain and argue on an gaming forum, they care about the sales and will do what they think will get them those sales, whether that is pandering and fan service or not.
 

Redd the Sock

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Much the issue is that a couple of years ago, this kind of question wouldn't have been asked unless there was something unconventional about it. We had something of a respect for at least some of the creative process and wouldn't, say, question someone about making a sci-fi or fantasy game and not something so overplayed like a western, especially because you in no way felt you were owed one. So the question was out of left field, and then came of as if making a game with a male lead was some kind of faux pas that needed justification. The subtext behind "why must it be a boy" was "why given all the hooplah online about girls wanting girl characters did you chose to ignore them." While I might have phrased it differently, I think it was the only answer to give: no rationalizations, just a stern reminder that he is not there to appeal to you specifically and if if you are harsh on something that doesn't appeal to you for that reason alone, you aren't being fair to the game or to him. I wanted a female character in GTA since San Andreas and didn't get it this time. I'll hope for better in GTA 6 (or the expansion DLC we're sure to get).
 

Rebel_Raven

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Korten12 said:
Rebel_Raven said:
The only problem I have is that it seems you put gender above personality. You say you relate more to female characters, but wouldn't you relate more to a person who is more like you, regardless of gender? Gender is a defining point, but it's not what completely defines a person. It's just one part.
Well, that's because for the large part, protagonist personalities are pretty limited. Very rarely do they get away from typical stuff. If it's my choice between bland guy and bland girl, 'm gunna go after bland girl, all other things equal.

I go after female protagonists because they sometimes have unique personalities, and points of view from the average male protagonist.

Now if a guy has a largely better personality, and writing, I'll prolly go that way. I'd still expect that sooner or later there's a female equivalent, though. It's simply no fair if guys get all the interesting personalities, isn't it? :p
 

00slash00

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I admit being a little sad that GTA5 doesn't have a female character option (though not that sad. on a scale of 1 to 10, my excitement for GTA5 is probably a 5, at best). I prefer being able to play a female because I identify as female. I'm a trans woman but I'm not out, and playing a female in a video game allows me to temporarily forget that I feel like a stranger in my own body and be a woman. That said, I won't be less likely to buy a game if I can't play as a woman. It makes me happy if I can, but it isn't a mark against the game if I can't. It's particularly understandable for heavily story driven games
 

white_wolf

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Lilani said:
Goliath100 said:
Edit: What I'm saying is that if Half-Life 2 is played by someone identifying as female, Gordon Freeman is female in that case. If played by someone idenifying as male, Gordon is male.
As a female, I've got to say...not really. This isn't how it works at all. I don't know what it feels like to "be" a man, but I still felt like Gordon Freeman playing HL2 and I was perfectly fine with everyone else calling me a male, and with Alyx hitting on me every now and then. And when I was playing the Walking Dead I didn't feel like a female Lee, I felt like Lee. I made my decisions based on my perceptions of his character. I wanted him to fall in love with Carly, and I encouraged him to be fatherly to Clementine. As I saw his relationship with Clementine develop, it felt like a father-daughter relationship, not a mother-daughter. And I loved that--I just loved the honesty and tenderness there. It reminded me of my dad in many ways.

To say it's impossible for a player to play as the opposite gender without "imagining" they're the same gender is like saying a person can't watch a movie or read a book about a character of the opposite gender without mentally changing them to be the same. That just isn't how it works at all. Perhaps if the character is nameless and there's no narrative like Minecraft or something, but if the character has a name and if they're an active participant in the narrative then that defines them. All throughout Bioshock I was aware I was playing a man, and I felt no need to change that. I was too busy exploring the narrative and seeing where the characters and story were going to go. It's just the same as the way I got through Harry Potter just fine without turning him into Harriet Potter in my mind. It's the same principle, really.
Pretty much this, but as a fem gamer when I play a male lead if I'm asked like in ME to be him I assume the mantle of him. My father treated me more like a boy anyway so I'm pretty good at playing the, " If I was a guy" game. So I just do that. My male lead doesn't become a she because I'm playing as him I step into his shoes, his mind, and try to navigate the world as him when questioned by the npcs. If I'm however alone and just killing things, scavenging, or exploring I'm free to do as I please I don't however think I'm not him its just I'm fallowing him about while doing these things or a better way of putting it is during his free roam nonquestion sections if its a 3Dp he has a camera fallowing him either like a flying bug or its in his helmet (for fp types) and I see what he sees at no time does he become she. Other times when I'm about scavenging, exploring, killing I'm him completely I'll find myself going, " What's this?", " Can I make that leap?" there is no difference between he and I when I'm playing we sync up rather well because of who he is and his personality these heros are the type I prefer to play as.

There are however points of disassociation when Geralt is sleeping with Triss it's a check out moment and then its a movie but for the most part I'm usually engaged in what my male lead is doing even if he's fp. If my male hero is getting hit on by a woman I don't like personality wise I'll ignore her or look for the option to turn her down. But if she likes my male lead and I think she's a nice girl I'll be happy for my male lead and as the woman above said encourage him to be with her. I loved when Tali wanted Mshep and was super happy when he was able to return her advances for instance. When they would meet up or share a moment together I was happy for them and thought he was a lucky guy not me being a lucky girl it was his moment with her and he would be lucky because of it for himself.

When I'm a fem lead I find my thoughts are less constricted when I think of things it's like she's thinking these things I no longer have to play the " if I was a guy" mental game I can now just be in the world and experience it without an added layer.

However a male can play a fem lead in much the same way by playing the, " If I was a girl," game or just mentally accompanying her, rooting for her, wanting to help her succeed in her quest, or if he can actually place himself in her shoes. At no point would the fem lead become he, he would be aware of the fact its a she and he would either choose to fallow her or choose to mentally become her.
 

Bara_no_Hime

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Father Time said:
Honestly why does it matter to you? It's pretty obvious that these aren't blank slate characters so why be hung up about it?
Because I want to see more stories about women.

Note, in my post, I said "I'm sure someone there would have liked to write something like that" (paraphrased from memory) - the point of that was that I'd like to see what sort of story they'd have written about a female protagonist. It would have been interesting.

There aren't many actual "blank slate" characters these days anyway - if you have full voice-acting, even if you can select a voice, it isn't a blank slate anymore.
 

Sheo_Dagana

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Yeah... the very instant you start questioning people about the things they do or say, they pull the 'right to free speech' card, and if you press any further than that, then it is YOU who is suddenly the person against free speech. It's an irritating argument and one I'm tired of seeing, specifically from certain web-comic artists who bully people into thinking their jokes are funny.

I especially liked this video because it was nicely balanced - you tackled this issue rather effectively despite your illness being at it's peak. Hopefully you'll be feeling better soon, as next week is likely to get crazy.
 

MaximumTheHormone

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The reason why publishers/ developers are afraid/ aren't bothered to put female protags in their games:
They don't sell.
We can bandy around the bush about artistic integrity and freedom of speech all we like, but the real reason why there is such a slim selection is that when games have been offered with Female (non-overtly-sexualized, ie. not Lara Croft) protags they have seen pretty poor to mediocre sales.
Eg. Beyond good and Evil
Aliane Corre (From Ubisoft):
"The game play was there, the technical excellence was there but perhaps the target audience was not there,"
inb4 bad marketing
Ubisoft is a fairly large publisher, this wasn't just an indie sleeper title, this was a commercial retail product that was reviewed by all the major review sites. This was a worldwide released commercial title + it received critical acclaim and won the developers choice 'best game of 2004' (Therefore in its debut period it received PLENTY of exposure)
source: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Beyond_Good_%26_Evil_(video_game)
Eg. Mirrors edge
A highly exposed, multi-platform game in a market surrounded by sequels of old titles and the Nintendo Wii
Quote From the marketing director for DICE "I would look for world-wide sales of over 3 million, on three platforms," Frain tells Edge, adding, "as a conservative number. I think it has the potential to do a lot more than that."
http://www.edge-online.com/news/mirrors-edge-projects-3m-sales/
Despite a decently solid metacritic score (81%)and its release of 5 platforms (With mobile expansions)in June 2013 an EA executive revealed that the game had sold 'About 2.5 million units'
source: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mirror's_Edge
The problem isn't that gamers encourage the sale of gender exclusive games, its that games that reflect the egalitarian idealism that they desire are not selling to the degree that would encourage publishers to make more.
 

Strazdas

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Jimothy Sterling said:
ZiggyE said:
Why should a game be criticised or scrutinised simply because it doesn't have a female protagonist?
Why shouldn't it?
Because all else equal, gender of protagonist does not matter. So a game should not be criticized for a sole reason of protagonist genre. Criticizing however is not equal to asking why, which is what you were doing in the video. You werent criticizing, you were inquiring, and theres nothing wrong with that.
 

Entitled

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Zachary Amaranth said:
TreuloseTomate said:
Most games are about male protagonists because most developers are male.
So why doesn't that play out as significantly in Hollywood or print?
In Hollywood, it totally does.

Remember that time when Warner's president decreed that they don't intend to make any movies with female leads any more? [http://www.firstshowing.net/2007/warner-brothers-president-says-no-more-female-lead-characters/] Like, at all.

Or ever heard about the Bechdel test? Part of the reason why it works, is because a staggering amount of movies lack ANY female characters, or at least two named female characters who talk to each other, and the ones that do, often only have male characters around them to talk about.

With novels, there is a larger percentage of female writers, as the whole medium is more cost-effective, and also has a larger market of female readers (chicken or the egg about which caused which. One could say that women stay in the writing business because there is a better market for it, or that the lower barrier to publish novels first made female writers available, which caused women to read about their identifiable female characters). The YA genre in particular is full of female lead characters due to this, not to mention the existence of erotica, which exists as a female-centric genre practically only in print.
 

Entitled

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Sutter Cane said:
Jimothy Sterling said:
ZiggyE said:
Why should a game be criticised or scrutinised simply because it doesn't have a female protagonist?
Why shouldn't it?
because there's nothing inherently wrong with telling a story about a guy. The problem with there not being enough good female playable characters in games is an issue because it's a trend, not because having a male protagonist is bad. I mean if I end up staying with someone who cooks spaghetti for dinner every night for 2 weeks, i'd almost certainly get sick of it, but that doesn't mean that choosing to make spaghetti for your evening meal is a bad choice. Criticizing a game for simply choosing to have a male protagonist is basically like criticizing a different friend's cooking skills simply because he chose to make spaghetti in the previous scenario.
If your friend cooks spaghetti for 2 weeks straight, it is not quite their cooking skills that should be criticised, but there is still definitely something criticism-worthy about their consistent failure to diversify their meals. Because the food exists in a context. A cook in a restaurant is only expected to skillfully prepare whatever your order, but someone who cooks for you over a long term and picks the menu, is also expected to take your diet's context into account.

If a game decides to invent a new fantasy world, and it JUST HAPPENS TO BE one with elves, dwarves, humans, orcs, and dragons, and the first level involves slaying giant rats, and you later meet your teammates with an inn, and at the end there is an evil overlord in a spiky helmet, that's definitely a point of criticism. Not because there is something "inherently wrong" with either of these tropes. Not "inherently". But there is something wrong with observing the plethora of uninspired generic fantasy stories before, all of them using these, and still going ahead with no particular justification (e.g: not for parody, homage, or deconstruction). Even if you are a skillful writer, not acknowledging the outside context that what you are writing will feel cliched for most readers, is a valid point of criticism.

Likewise, if so much of our literature, movies, and games are about one particular half of humankind, failing to acknowledge that and choosing the lazy option just because you can't bother to question your assumptions, is definitely a point of criticism on it's own, even if it's otherwise a skillfully done work.

LACK OF interesting original thought, deserves to be criticised, even if "inherently" nothing would stop it from being interesting, it's the writer's job to recognize the context in whic it isn't.