Jimquisition: Damn Fine Coffee

[mbarker]

It's a classic case of the snake eating its own tail. Its not that focus groups are bad or inefficient and stupid. The biggest problem is that the publishers have already told everyone on the focus group what they want and they are just paroting that. Using a small group of profesionals to judge and anylize a problem is a common method used in statistics, of course these views are usually kept unbiased.

The only real solution to using a focus group is to get one that is completely untainted by industry nonsense and the only way to get one of those is to wait till the industry realizes that it needs to change.

 

[lastjustice]

Yes Thank God for you Mr Sterling. I almost have to doubt many of the game industry actually watch this show or take any of it on face value or you'd see someone else trying make sense of it all.

They want to make check list of what I want here we go...

- Make me a pile of damn Good Jrpgs....remember back in the PS1 and PS2 you couldn't walk down a game aisle and not almost trip over them. They re on the verge of extinction nowdays. Square has become the emperor with no clothes as they don't seem remember how make games that you actually can play. (I've been recently replaying Chrono trigger, Final fantasy 1,4 and 6 on GBA looking back like how far the mighty have fallen.) and Suikoden never seemed to get a big enough following in the states to keep making them. I'd like some turn based, some actiony ones, and some strategy based ones. Give me a ton of different ones with whatever crazy ideas you want to add. Go nuts, just start making them again. I'm tired of them being banished to Handhelds and DLC. Someone out there make them in earnest. This is a corner of the market greatly under served.

- Games I can play co op with people in the same room. Yes we have the internet and who wants to share a split screen right....wrong. I miss the days of playing 4 player multiplayer in the same room. Tearing thru waves of bad guys in an action game with my brother. Alot of games seem to not want to make the co op local. (which I hated about War for Cybertron.)Wii seems be the only system that still tried give us that experience. PS3 and Xbox 360 have dried up this well for most part.


I'm sure I can add more, but these are things Id like to see more of in the future.

 

[kburns10]

Never saw that original trailer for Fuse. The cartoon look was really cool and reminded me of Team Fortress 2. I would have much rather played that than what they ended up releasing!

 

[JohnnyDelRay]

Maybe I'm a total ignoramus (rhetorical question ok, shutup) but I thought people answer anonymous surveys and provide statistical results more truthfully than they otherwise would when speaking to their buddies/colleagues/partners or whomever? In any case, this proves to be very different, or maybe that's because we are on forums. So I can think of 2 different scenarios going on here, in the case of GAMES, because that's what Jim's explanation refers to:

A) Gamers are simply providing superficial results to the focus groups, because they don't go parallel with what gamers are actually buying; they say they want innovation but in fact continue to buy the big franchises as quick as they can be released.

B) Gamers are providing truthful results, and would go more in-line with what we read on forums, but they just continue buying the stuff that comes out anyways, because of....other reasons? The higher quality, better graphics, what? And don't tell me "customer service"

 

[Ed130 The Vanguard]

Maybe I'm a total ignoramus (rhetorical question ok, shutup) but I thought people answer anonymous surveys and provide statistical results more truthfully than they otherwise would when speaking to their buddies/colleagues/partners or whomever? In any case, this proves to be very different, or maybe that's because we are on forums. So I can think of 2 different scenarios going on here, in the case of GAMES, because that's what Jim's explanation refers to:

A) Gamers are simply providing superficial results to the focus groups, because they don't go parallel with what gamers are actually buying; they say they want innovation but in fact continue to buy the big franchises as quick as they can be released.

B) Gamers are providing truthful results, and would go more in-line with what we read on forums, but they just continue buying the stuff that comes out anyways, because of....other reasons? The higher quality, better graphics, what? And don't tell me "customer service"

Focus Groups aren't surveys, they are where you get a 'random' sample of potential clients/customers stick them in a room and show them the product, all the while allowing them to chatter amongst themselves.

There is a little more to it but that is the gist of it.

 

[JohnnyDelRay]

Maybe I'm a total ignoramus (rhetorical question ok, shutup) but I thought people answer anonymous surveys and provide statistical results more truthfully than they otherwise would when speaking to their buddies/colleagues/partners or whomever? In any case, this proves to be very different, or maybe that's because we are on forums. So I can think of 2 different scenarios going on here, in the case of GAMES, because that's what Jim's explanation refers to:

A) Gamers are simply providing superficial results to the focus groups, because they don't go parallel with what gamers are actually buying; they say they want innovation but in fact continue to buy the big franchises as quick as they can be released.

B) Gamers are providing truthful results, and would go more in-line with what we read on forums, but they just continue buying the stuff that comes out anyways, because of....other reasons? The higher quality, better graphics, what? And don't tell me "customer service"

Focus Groups aren't surveys, they are where you get a 'random' sample of potential clients/customers stick them in a room and show them the product, all the while allowing them to chatter amongst themselves.

There is a little more to it but that is the gist of it.

Thanks for the heads up! I guess I should have read a bit more about what a focus group is before posting (no sarcasm! Honestly I thought it was more of a survey as well).

But now that I have had a quick glance at wiki-P, my comments are still kinda the same, only now, there's even less of a sense of anonymity, because you are actually talking to people about it and giving feedback, even if it's with total strangers.

 

[daxterx2005]

I've honestly never heard of "New Coke"

 

[Korolev]

If you have your coffee club meetings in that shack.... that must be a pretty grim coffee club.

 

[IronMit]

I've honestly never heard of "New Coke"

It's a 1985-1992 thing.
It might not of been a failure - coke eventually re-released classic coke and everyone went wild.
people think it was a publicity stunt

 

[Toxic Sniper]

...Is "black fine roast" drip? I'm not a coffee connoisseur.

I like drip coffee, but that's mainly because it's so strong tasting that it actually wakes me up on the late nights or early mornings I need coffee.

 

[Gunner 51]

I think there are a few reasons why publishers don't listen to you, Jim. I should warn you that you're not going to like them.

1.) Let's start off with you - your attitude is off-putting to say the least - especially to genteel boardroom types. They don't want to see or hear some guy with an ego the size of Jupiter mouthing off and hurling abuse at them like some sort of anti-EA strawman.

I know that your ego is part of your schtick, but if you truly wanted boardroom types to listen to you - ditch the ego and replace it with maturity. I'm not telling you to become a corporate brown-noser like those in IGN (screw those guys) - but be a little more mature in future.

2.) Publishers won't listen to you or anyone because some of them are still making profits and have since adopted an "I'm OK, Jack" attitude. Until they are all in complete freefall, no-one will truly get listened to. However, with the X-box One about to tank - this may be a situatation that remedies itself.

3.) The Frat-boys, CoD Bros, CoD Kids and Console Peasants or whatever derisive name everyone here calls them are still the backbone of gaming. They're the ones who buy most of the games or at least have games bought for them - those who like a little imagination, story and a little context put into the games like us - are sadly the minority.

Remember those days when gamers wanted to share their hobby with everyone and for more people to become gamers? It'd seem some financial djinni were listening and have since granted that wish. Like you, I will lament the fact that games are no longer the art they once were but are turning into business products. I can only hope that this mythical crash will come soon and purge the money-men out of gaming.

 

[Rainforce]

I've honestly never heard of "New Coke"

It's a 1985-1992 thing.
It might not of been a failure - coke eventually re-released classic coke and everyone went wild.
people think it was a publicity stunt

That's good to know, never heard about new coke either.

Also it's "might HAVE" not "might of". Using the latter is a horrible sin against common sense and the actual meaning of the words, and you should feel bad for that! D: (Where is this coming from anyways? It's popping up more and more lately)

 

[Tim Chuma]

The Arma series is an excellent example of game that has been developed for the players and not chasing some sort of market share.

The game is more of a sandbox in which you can create your own scenarios
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PdKwsWKP1dA

Also this happened
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IV0np7HOiSk

DayZ was based on the ARMA engine and also why I started watching the Shacktac videos.

Steam does seem to have a lot of games like Prison Architect that you would not find anywhere else.

 

[Cabisco]

It's these types of videos when you look at wider issues involving the entire state of gaming which I really enjoy.

When you started talking about the manipulation of testing groups all I could think about was this:


Watching this again I think this is eerily similar to what happens...

 

[IronMit]

I've honestly never heard of "New Coke"

It's a 1985-1992 thing.
It might not of been a failure - coke eventually re-released classic coke and everyone went wild.
people think it was a publicity stunt

That's good to know, never heard about new coke either.

Also it's "might HAVE" not "might of". Using the latter is a horrible sin against common sense and the actual meaning of the words, and you should feel bad for that! D: (Where is this coming from anyways? It's popping up more and more lately)

It's common where I am from. Not sure why...it could be a West London slang thing or a 2nd generation immigrant thing
I remember a few of our English teacher's continually correcting us

 

[immortalfrieza]

One thing you forgot to mention Jim. Even if a focus group is made up of people of relevant demographics that all give their honest opinions and they actually have relevant opinions, they are statistically irrelevant. The problem with surveying a group of people to figure out ANYTHING about a much much larger group of people has always been that the size of said group is always far too small to really be effective at determining anything. 10, 100, 1000, 10,000 people, hell, even 100,000 is still too small a number to actually mean anything when the group you're trying to find crap out about numbers to several million people or more.

 

[masticina]

I couldn't care LESS about Call of Duty

Strangely the amount of games I have bought last years have been..less then expected.

Odd how that goes!

 

[ZexionSephiroth]

I say I probably wouldn't have the Social Bias thingy as much as others.

I Drink Milky Coffee! And I'm not afraid to admit that!

...Of course the trick is to use less hot water, more coffee, more Milk, and more sugar.

...Although I may just use more coffee because I have a desperate need for Caffeine that no normal drink can state in one go. So rich or not, regular levels of coffee are going to do shit.

So... Mild Brew coffee with lots of milk, sugar and Caffeine?

Why don't I just grab a soft drink then?

Oh Wait! I DO!

Among other confessions, I don't like guns as a weapon, or shooter games. But its not because they are bland. Its because I have horrible aim and can't shoot for crap.

So instead I'm an avid player of games that use close range maneuverability based combat. Where I can dash in and out of my enemies range of attack at will.

Further more. Of the few games I bought in the last... However long. One major thing they all had in common was they looked like an anime...

Such as one where you play as some character that fight evil with Giant Magical Suits of Armour, one where students enter a TV to fight TV inspired Demons using fragments of their own psyche that look like Cartoon Characters, and a game that allows your Avatar to date the Future Child of your Best Friends, and then have your own child date another one.

...There was also one where I had to actually orchestrate Time Shenanigans... But that was to prove to myself I could wrap my head around it.

Also... I stopped Playing Minecraft when I realized I didn't really have anything I really wanted to make besides a Plate to block out the sun... Which would take forever. And generally, I would have preferred to make something that can move. Like an animal or space ship, or orbital Space Station. And your capacity to make those in Minecraft are Dangerously limited.

...Actually... Now that I think about it... If one wants to make any head way with Focus groups. You need to have them treat it like a confessional group. All "I know this is embarrassing... But I must confess..." and stuff.

...And in a strange sort of confession... normally... When I'm brought into a group... I generally oppose every popular decision everyone else makes because "It's been done", and try to interject my own Ideas and get someone to make something crazy that will appeal to me... But nobody ever listens to me. Although that may just be because I'm overbearing and possessive.

 

[Antari]

snip.

There is always some method in madness Jim. Thank god for ya! And welcome to the tin foil hat club!

 

[Flannel Gary]

I think several people may be missing a critically important point here about Focus Groups. There's a lot of ink spilled in the last few pages of posts I've read through about how (1) people aren't truthful in those groups out of pressure, (2) companies aren't honest about the data provided, (3) it should be done "man on the street" style outside of a select sample, (4) there should be better questions to encourage more diverse opinion, and/or (5) the consumer isn't educated enough to answer well.

I don't think any of that is the issue.

What the study/research shows is that there's a disconnect between peoples' answers (and this goes to scale, it isn't idiocy or ignorance or fraud or anything untoward) and their actual behavior. Too many people, I feel, are trying to make this a difference between the stated preferences of a focus group in an interview and the stated preferences of real gamers in a real gamer world.

I think that's short-sighted.

The disconnect is between what consumers genuinely believe they want (including real gamers and casual ones and weak ones) and what they actually spend time, money, effort, and joy experiencing. The astonishing truth isn't that companies do focus groups wrong, it's that most consumers (even those who think they know better) really don't know what they want--not very well. And in a world (like games, I imagine) where part of the art is the new experience, it must be much harder to position the next product in front of a consumer base that says one thing (and believes it) and actually truly deeply only wants another (which they don't know how to express).

In actuality, and likelihood, both the Dude-Frat-bro CoD gamer (whom people seem to disdain here) and the Gamecore (Tru-gamer) Guy are both bad at this. It'd would be born out in their actual playtime what they truly like and don't.