Jimquisition: Damn Fine Coffee

Rainforce

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IronMit said:
daxterx2005 said:
I've honestly never heard of "New Coke"
It's a 1985-1992 thing.
It might not of been a failure - coke eventually re-released classic coke and everyone went wild.
people think it was a publicity stunt
That's good to know, never heard about new coke either.

Also it's "might HAVE" not "might of". Using the latter is a horrible sin against common sense and the actual meaning of the words, and you should feel bad for that! D: (Where is this coming from anyways? It's popping up more and more lately)
 

Tim Chuma

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Jul 9, 2010
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The Arma series is an excellent example of game that has been developed for the players and not chasing some sort of market share.

The game is more of a sandbox in which you can create your own scenarios
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PdKwsWKP1dA

Also this happened
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IV0np7HOiSk

DayZ was based on the ARMA engine and also why I started watching the Shacktac videos.

Steam does seem to have a lot of games like Prison Architect that you would not find anywhere else.
 

Cabisco

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It's these types of videos when you look at wider issues involving the entire state of gaming which I really enjoy.

When you started talking about the manipulation of testing groups all I could think about was this:


Watching this again I think this is eerily similar to what happens...
 

IronMit

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Rainforce said:
IronMit said:
daxterx2005 said:
I've honestly never heard of "New Coke"
It's a 1985-1992 thing.
It might not of been a failure - coke eventually re-released classic coke and everyone went wild.
people think it was a publicity stunt
That's good to know, never heard about new coke either.

Also it's "might HAVE" not "might of". Using the latter is a horrible sin against common sense and the actual meaning of the words, and you should feel bad for that! D: (Where is this coming from anyways? It's popping up more and more lately)
It's common where I am from. Not sure why...it could be a West London slang thing or a 2nd generation immigrant thing
I remember a few of our English teacher's continually correcting us
 

immortalfrieza

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One thing you forgot to mention Jim. Even if a focus group is made up of people of relevant demographics that all give their honest opinions and they actually have relevant opinions, they are statistically irrelevant. The problem with surveying a group of people to figure out ANYTHING about a much much larger group of people has always been that the size of said group is always far too small to really be effective at determining anything. 10, 100, 1000, 10,000 people, hell, even 100,000 is still too small a number to actually mean anything when the group you're trying to find crap out about numbers to several million people or more.
 

masticina

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I couldn't care LESS about Call of Duty

Strangely the amount of games I have bought last years have been..less then expected.

Odd how that goes!
 

ZexionSephiroth

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I say I probably wouldn't have the Social Bias thingy as much as others.

I Drink Milky Coffee! And I'm not afraid to admit that!

...Of course the trick is to use less hot water, more coffee, more Milk, and more sugar.

...Although I may just use more coffee because I have a desperate need for Caffeine that no normal drink can state in one go. So rich or not, regular levels of coffee are going to do shit.

So... Mild Brew coffee with lots of milk, sugar and Caffeine?

Why don't I just grab a soft drink then?

Oh Wait! I DO!

Among other confessions, I don't like guns as a weapon, or shooter games. But its not because they are bland. Its because I have horrible aim and can't shoot for crap.

So instead I'm an avid player of games that use close range maneuverability based combat. Where I can dash in and out of my enemies range of attack at will.

Further more. Of the few games I bought in the last... However long. One major thing they all had in common was they looked like an anime...

Such as one where you play as some character that fight evil with Giant Magical Suits of Armour, one where students enter a TV to fight TV inspired Demons using fragments of their own psyche that look like Cartoon Characters, and a game that allows your Avatar to date the Future Child of your Best Friends, and then have your own child date another one.

...There was also one where I had to actually orchestrate Time Shenanigans... But that was to prove to myself I could wrap my head around it.

Also... I stopped Playing Minecraft when I realized I didn't really have anything I really wanted to make besides a Plate to block out the sun... Which would take forever. And generally, I would have preferred to make something that can move. Like an animal or space ship, or orbital Space Station. And your capacity to make those in Minecraft are Dangerously limited.

...Actually... Now that I think about it... If one wants to make any head way with Focus groups. You need to have them treat it like a confessional group. All "I know this is embarrassing... But I must confess..." and stuff.

...And in a strange sort of confession... normally... When I'm brought into a group... I generally oppose every popular decision everyone else makes because "It's been done", and try to interject my own Ideas and get someone to make something crazy that will appeal to me... But nobody ever listens to me. Although that may just be because I'm overbearing and possessive.
 

Flannel Gary

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I think several people may be missing a critically important point here about Focus Groups. There's a lot of ink spilled in the last few pages of posts I've read through about how (1) people aren't truthful in those groups out of pressure, (2) companies aren't honest about the data provided, (3) it should be done "man on the street" style outside of a select sample, (4) there should be better questions to encourage more diverse opinion, and/or (5) the consumer isn't educated enough to answer well.

I don't think any of that is the issue.

What the study/research shows is that there's a disconnect between peoples' answers (and this goes to scale, it isn't idiocy or ignorance or fraud or anything untoward) and their actual behavior. Too many people, I feel, are trying to make this a difference between the stated preferences of a focus group in an interview and the stated preferences of real gamers in a real gamer world.

I think that's short-sighted.

The disconnect is between what consumers genuinely believe they want (including real gamers and casual ones and weak ones) and what they actually spend time, money, effort, and joy experiencing. The astonishing truth isn't that companies do focus groups wrong, it's that most consumers (even those who think they know better) really don't know what they want--not very well. And in a world (like games, I imagine) where part of the art is the new experience, it must be much harder to position the next product in front of a consumer base that says one thing (and believes it) and actually truly deeply only wants another (which they don't know how to express).

In actuality, and likelihood, both the Dude-Frat-bro CoD gamer (whom people seem to disdain here) and the Gamecore (Tru-gamer) Guy are both bad at this. It'd would be born out in their actual playtime what they truly like and don't.
 

Charli

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Rich coffee with two sugars. No. Milk. Rich is not the same as 'toasted' to charcoal though. It means the beans I like have good flavor and have been prepared accordingly. Also I don't get coffee from 'coffee chain shops'. If I do it's because I want a frappe, and that's my coffee icecream.

ANYWAY. As much as I love rambling about my coffee addiction. Can't say I can argue with this. Publishers and Developers are far too rigid with 'focus testing'. Sega of London recently hired some female playtesters (my friend is one) so I can start to see how they're worried they're not focus testing fairly and are failing trying to push the gritty and realistic too heavily on ONE age group.

But you also have to beware of the other end of the spectrum which is trying to please everyone.

Sadly the 12 year old male demographic is STILL the most lucrative. But if you can expand that outwards a little bit (not too much) to 12 year old girls, or even younger/older. Etc. Maybe do some one off games that do appeal to different audiences...

You might develop a product that's got a little more meat to it.
 

craigdolphin

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Gunner 51 said:
I think there are a few reasons why publishers don't listen to you, Jim. I should warn you that you're not going to like them.

1.) Let's start off with you - your attitude is off-putting to say the least - especially to genteel boardroom types. They don't want to see or hear some guy with an ego the size of Jupiter mouthing off and hurling abuse at them like some sort of anti-EA strawman.

I know that your ego is part of your schtick, but if you truly wanted boardroom types to listen to you - ditch the ego and replace it with maturity. I'm not telling you to become a corporate brown-noser like those in IGN (screw those guys) - but be a little more mature in future.

2.) Publishers won't listen to you or anyone because some of them are still making profits and have since adopted an "I'm OK, Jack" attitude. Until they are all in complete freefall, no-one will truly get listened to. However, with the X-box One about to tank - this may be a situatation that remedies itself.

3.) The Frat-boys, CoD Bros, CoD Kids and Console Peasants or whatever derisive name everyone here calls them are still the backbone of gaming. They're the ones who buy most of the games or at least have games bought for them - those who like a little imagination, story and a little context put into the games like us - are sadly the minority.

Remember those days when gamers wanted to share their hobby with everyone and for more people to become gamers? It'd seem some financial djinni were listening and have since granted that wish. Like you, I will lament the fact that games are no longer the art they once were but are turning into business products. I can only hope that this mythical crash will come soon and purge the money-men out of gaming.
Not to be a complete douche but... BOLLOCKS!

Frankly, the corporates and moneymen would not listen to the type of mature, calmly asserted, reasoned critique that you advocate. We know this because amidst the fanboi wars and vitriol on the web, over the years there has been an abundance of the calm, respectful critique you mention on the internet. EA in particular have been given reams of respectful feedback for years on the Bioware forums on matters of DRM/Origin Requirements, changes to Dragon Age (DA2 WTF?), Mass Effect 3's evolution from RPG to 3rdPS, the 'ending' controversy, for example. And they've never so much as entered into an honest conversation with those fans. They don't even bother to pretend they're listening. They go so far as to say discussions of aspects of the product you buy from them are 'off topic'! And the bioware forums have subsequently degenerated into a cesspool of vitriol and hate between the fanbois and the few pissed-off former fans who still bother to show up.

So screw them. The simple fact is that corporates don't listen to logic, or common sense. They look only at the bottom line in the short term. They do whatever they feel they can get away with, regardless of morality or legality, or the long term effect on their company. I think they'd forcibly addict their mother to crack and sell her to a pimp if they thought it would improve their bottom line for the coming quarter.

Jim is one of the only gaming journos who doesn't appear to be suffering some form of stockholm syndrome with regards to the increasingly soulless and myopic AAA industry. (RPS is another outlet that still can see the forest for the trees.) Aside from them, games journalism is an oxymoron.

I hope Jim continues his rants because calling a pile of bovine excrement 'bullshit' without mincing words, without couching it in pseudo-intellectual claptrap, without kow-towing and genuflecting to the exalted status of the C-suites, is about the only thing that MIGHT get them to pause for a second and consider that maybe they ought to start paying attention to the lowly rabble gathering with pitchforks and torches outside the gates of their silence-shielded PR-cocoon and the lower level yes-men they surround themselves with. Jim is the anti-silence to the publishers 'silence' strategy. Long may he continue to throw the brickbats.

Thank God for Jim, indeed.
 

Amir Kondori

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I'll tell you what game I want to see come out. Call of Booty. It would be bright and colorful, well there would be a lot of tans, creams, pinks, and the like, you could have a female protagonist if you wanted to, and the whole game would be about going through a wide open sandbox trying to score booty. The hotter and more desirable the person the more challenging to seduce and the higher the score would be. There would be unlockables, achievements, gear you could wear to make yourself more desirable to different people, you could level up your looks or witty banter, or charm, etc.

Of course that game would never focus test well so I guess we'll never get it.
 

Maevine

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Feb 4, 2013
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I like my coffee made into cubes and blended with milk, chocolate syrup, caramel, sugar, vanilla, and Blue Bunny's Coffee Break icecream. I use black coffee as an air freshener.

I'm personally using and loving my focus groups, but only because they're a horribly honest lot. They have nothing to prove or hide. They're little fountains of genuine opinions~ <3 Of course, I don't have a checklist for them, either. I gave them a few studies, got some good feedback, and took from that feedback the things they weren't already getting with their other games. They have Amnesia. They have Dandelion Wishes. I want to give them something totally different.

I wish more games would go out there and do something different. I'm itching to play a game in which I save people and/or negotiate with the enemy rather than slaughter everyone. GoW was the last game I liked of that mentality before it got freaking boring.
 

Kian2

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Reminds me of the quote by Henry Ford, "If I'd asked customers what they wanted, they would have said 'a faster horse'."

You can't be innovative by asking consumers what they want. They want what they know, only better. Which is not to say you shouldn't have user testing. But you should use it to highlight issues in usability, not design. Watch them play and see where they spend the most time, what they have issues with, etc. Don't just give them a questionnaire.
 

Gunner 51

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craigdolphin said:
Not to be a complete douche but... BOLLOCKS!

Frankly, the corporates and moneymen would not listen to the type of mature, calmly asserted, reasoned critique that you advocate. We know this because amidst the fanboi wars and vitriol on the web, over the years there has been an abundance of the calm, respectful critique you mention on the internet. EA in particular have been given reams of respectful feedback for years on the Bioware forums on matters of DRM/Origin Requirements, changes to Dragon Age (DA2 WTF?), Mass Effect 3's evolution from RPG to 3rdPS, the 'ending' controversy, for example. And they've never so much as entered into an honest conversation with those fans. They don't even bother to pretend they're listening. They go so far as to say discussions of aspects of the product you buy from them are 'off topic'! And the bioware forums have subsequently degenerated into a cesspool of vitriol and hate between the fanbois and the few pissed-off former fans who still bother to show up.

So screw them. The simple fact is that corporates don't listen to logic, or common sense. They look only at the bottom line in the short term. They do whatever they feel they can get away with, regardless of morality or legality, or the long term effect on their company. I think they'd forcibly addict their mother to crack and sell her to a pimp if they thought it would improve their bottom line for the coming quarter.

Jim is one of the only gaming journos who doesn't appear to be suffering some form of stockholm syndrome with regards to the increasingly soulless and myopic AAA industry. (RPS is another outlet that still can see the forest for the trees.) Aside from them, games journalism is an oxymoron.

I hope Jim continues his rants because calling a pile of bovine excrement 'bullshit' without mincing words, without couching it in pseudo-intellectual claptrap, without kow-towing and genuflecting to the exalted status of the C-suites, is about the only thing that MIGHT get them to pause for a second and consider that maybe they ought to start paying attention to the lowly rabble gathering with pitchforks and torches outside the gates of their silence-shielded PR-cocoon and the lower level yes-men they surround themselves with. Jim is the anti-silence to the publishers 'silence' strategy. Long may he continue to throw the brickbats.

Thank God for Jim, indeed.
I'd have to disagree with you on that there's a lot of level-headed and calm criticism leveled at the corporate world from gamers. In my experience, I have found that most of it is adolescent, foul-mouthed knee-jerk reactive posts on forums. Especially when you use the EA and Bioware games.

I will agree with you that most corporations will not listen to anyone if the money's still coming in. The solution to this is simple: hold off on buying the games, buy second hand or don't buy the games at all. But the hard part comes after that - sticking to your guns.

Screaming obscenities at the genteel types with power doesn't work at all. It just makes gamers the world over look like sulky teenagers at best and toddlers at worst. But what does work is choking the corporations with apathy and stinging them with a lack of money.

As for the Bioware forums turning into the toxic sludge-fest that it is now - that is due to hubris. As the saying goes - pride comes before a fall. Nowadays public opinion of Bioware and EA is at a near all-time low. But I don't think this hubris stops at the gates of EA and Bioware - I'd say it's nearly a pandemic throughout gaming. The launch of the X-box One will be the prime example of the greed and hubris the corporate types have and the fall that follows it. (Interestingly, if Andy Chalk is to believed, it might just be starting to happen. Here's something for your perusal. http://www.escapistmagazine.com/news/view/124559-Analyst-Recommends-Sale-of-Microsofts-Xbox-Division )

I'll admit Jim isn't a corporate brown-noser, far from it - in fact. But I'd balk to call him a journalist, journalists ask questions - Jim launches diatribes. I not sure if he conducts interviews - even Jessica Chobot managed that. Even if she's toe curlingly awful at it - especially that "for the epic win" quote she did. (Trust me, it's almost painful to watch.:D ) Though I'll give Rock,Paper Shotgun a look-in, they sound interesting.
 

Strazdas

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May 28, 2011
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What if i dont drink coffe?

However im the kind of guy that would be good focus group. if i say i like something i like it and if i hate something i hate it and dont pretend to be otherwise (which got me in trouble multiple times). and i would criticize the shit out of their game for doing this crap. but i like calculated stuff, i like sleak look and forgive this heracy for i never heard about the game but from the videos the second one did look better. thats just looks of course.

Gunner 51 said:
I'll admit Jim isn't a corporate brown-noser, far from it - in fact. But I'd balk to call him a journalist, journalists ask questions - Jim launches diatribes. I not sure if he conducts interviews - even Jessica Chobot managed that. Even if she's toe curlingly awful at it - especially that "for the epic win" quote she did. (Trust me, it's almost painful to watch.:D ) Though I'll give Rock,Paper Shotgun a look-in, they sound interesting.
You dont visit Destructoid do you?
 

Mangod

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Feb 20, 2011
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Funny, this video actually reminded me of an old story about Michelangelo and the Statue of David. Apparently, the guy who had commissioned the statue (or one of his flunkies) had shown up and complained that the statues nose was too big. So, Michelangelo grabbed a fistful of dust, got on the ladder, climbed up to the statues head, made some gestures with the hammer (never touching the statue) and then threw the dust in the observers face. After the observer had cleared his eyes, he said that the statue looked much better now.

Moral of the story: some people are just full of it, and will say anything that'll make them sound clever.