Jimquisition: Dark Souls and Dark Sales

geizr

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Azhrarn-101 said:
uanime5 said:
I bet most of a AAA budget is wasted on legalities, royalties, executive wages, lunches, handkerchiefs for the divas and actors and musicians... how much could be cut out if they tossed out the top actors and hire decent average actors to do the voices ? How many LESS copies if another actor did Soap McTavish in CoD ? Will Metal Gear fail because Hayter isnt Snake ?
Well a good example (well, future example really) is going to be Bioshock Infinite.
It's total development budget was in the region of $100 million (as stated by their publisher).
They then went and spent a mind-blowing $100 million on marketing the bloody thing.

Anyone want to place bets that someone (the publisher) is going to call Bioshock Infinite a disappointment sales-wise because it didn't make back that $200 million in its first month of sales?!

That marketing budget is the issue here, $100 million for a Triple A game is a lot, but recoverable, doubling that target because of the marketing budget sure as hell is a lot harder!

There's your issue. Money is literally thrown away, does $100 million in marketing even double the sales of anything, let alone a title people are expected to pay $60 for.
Let's consider this as an example. Let's say that for a $60 game, only $45 (i.e. 75% of the purchase price) actually goes to the publisher (the rest to retail, distribution, and printing). In order to break even, the publisher is required to sell approximately 4.4-4.5 million new copies. If the publisher only retains $30 of the sale price (i.e. 50%), then they would have to sell a whopping 6.7 million new copies, JUST TO BREAK EVEN! Even in the most optimistic scenario where the publisher retails all $60 of the retail price, he would still need to sell 3.3-3.4 million new copies, AGAIN JUST TO BREAK EVEN!. So, yes, there is good reason to believe that the reason these high sell numbers are disappointing is because the budgets for these games has spiraled out-of-control to a completely unsustainable level. Please note that this little calculation has the implication that unless Bioshock Infinite successfully sells 5-6+ million copies, there is a good chance the publisher will consider the game a complete failure, by current thinking.

Basically, the budgets that are being put into these games are not market-sustainable. There simply can never be expected to be sufficient market penetration of any game, simply because of the sheer number of titles and the cost of each title to purchase, to cover these massive budgets. People just don't have enough time and money to be able to afford so many big-budget triple-A titles. Game publishers need to obtain better analysis and understanding of their target markets such to allow them to make better projections of likely sells numbers and then budget accordingly, rather than casting a budget and than having to expect some necessary number of sales to cover that budget. If you already know from the beginning that a given game is likely to sell only 1-2 million copies, then you will know to better budget the game around $20-40 million to allow a better chance for profit or, at the very least, breaking even. That market understanding would also include knowing what appeals to the game's target audience so the game can be designed accordingly, ensuring a greater likelihood to maintain sells in accordance with analysis expectations and protecting investment. Right now, game publishers are seemingly running their business by throwing darts, rather than having any real understanding of their market. Maybe they are doing some of this, but there is a disconnect going on somewhere because these budgets are just stupid.

ADDENDUM: Oh, another thing about that market analysis, it has to consider also the games that have been recently released and the games that are going to be released in the near future (in other words, understand the playing field and where your competition sit in it). People only have just so much money; so, one needs to consider the viability of selling one's game at a particular time versus any other time. This is another basic problem of the triple-A industry; it's become so over-crowded with releases that the density of titles at the current typical price makes impossible for every game to do well. The typical game buyer can only buy a certain number of titles in a given period of time. Once the density of titles exceeds this, then sells of particular games will see a decrease because the total cost exceeds the ability of a large majority of the population. Think of it as a graph where the horizontal axis is the total cost in games that can be afforded and the vertical axis in the number people that can maximally afford that exact total cost. This may look like a Bell curve or a Lorentzian with the tail at the low end (I admit, I'm just guess here on the shape). Now if we integrate from highest total cost to lowest total cost to obtain a population of the total number of people that can afford a particular total cost, we would likely get a graph that looks like an asymptotic exponential with an inflection. As we lower the total cost, the number of people able to afford the games increases till it reaches an asymptote, at which point further cost reduction does not yield significant increases in the number of people able to afford all games on the market. So, there is a best total cost that sits at the upper knee of the curve that would allow for reasonable budgets while ensuring that every title produced has a good chance of obtaining sufficient sales to be profitable. In my opinion, this is where the industry wants to sit, right at that knee, and there are two ways of getting there: 1) lower the average purchase price of titles or 2) reduce the number of titles released over a given time period. Doing this, I think, would improve the overall viability of the triple-A industry.

EDIT: Apologies for the wall-of-text.
 

xPixelatedx

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THANK YOU!

I am constantly talking about industry bloat here and many people try to shoot me down, saying games costs what games costs; not understanding what it is I am saying. I am glad someone with more credibility then me finally said this! I know more people will listen to you, and they better soon. This may be a catalyst in the next gaming crash!

Arcane Azmadi said:
Why is this reminding me of the 1983 crash where Atari supposedly made more copies of ET than there were consoles in existence in the insane hope that it would sell more than was physically possible?
Because this is exactly what happened. Sad thing is we can see it coming a mile away now and yet no one is doing anything.
 

AyaReiko

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And yet there's this one guy who makes games for fuck all and yet it spawns graphic novels, light novels, an absolute mountain of fan works, two conventions devoted to it per year, and probably has the largest representation out of any series at the biannual comic fair. There is almost certainly not a single internet-geek in the world who has not at least heard of it. And he got a Guinness World Record for it too, very official.
 

Ulquiorra4sama

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Zachary Amaranth said:
Dark Souls is gorgeous? How can it be when it only runs like 720p and less than 200 FPS?

...I'm not serious, but it's amusing to hear this is such a beautiful game after seeing so many people confirming the Crytek claims by screaming about how inferior the visuals were and such.
Made even more hilarious when you remember the PC gaming outcry when FromSoftware revealed they wouldn't improve graphics from the console version.

OT: I thought Supply and Demand was taught in Marketing/Sales 101
 

sleeky01

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Callate said:
There are probably bureaucratic/union reasons for it, but I'm always a little surprised no game company ever seems to go to their city's local community theater or college theater department for voice work, or hire from the web-listed semi-pros like The Stanley Parable did.
I would agree. I couldn't figure out why a game developer couldn't go to the local community collage for concept artists and such. You wouldn't even have to pay them, they could work for credit toward their diploma. Or if you had to pay them, it would be a student wage. I see no reason why the same couldn't be applied to voice/motion capture work.
 

ThePuzzldPirate

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Ulquiorra4sama said:
Zachary Amaranth said:
Dark Souls is gorgeous? How can it be when it only runs like 720p and less than 200 FPS?

...I'm not serious, but it's amusing to hear this is such a beautiful game after seeing so many people confirming the Crytek claims by screaming about how inferior the visuals were and such.
Made even more hilarious when you remember the PC gaming outcry when FromSoftware revealed they wouldn't improve graphics from the console version.

OT: I thought Supply and Demand was taught in Marketing/Sales 101
It was a lot more than that and even the publishers have admitted themselves it was a bad port. I'm happy they acknowledged this fact and are doing better with the sequel.
 

ZeroMachine

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King of Asgaard said:
The nail. You've hit it. Right on the head. Again. Thank god for you.
Also:
First: I'm stealing that. Making it my Facebook cover photo. Just FYI.

Second, although I'll disagree that Dark Souls is graphically beautiful, it doesn't matter with that game because the art style is just downright mesmerizing. I have a soft spot for dark fantasy, especially when it has a hint of that Japanese horror fucked-up-ness.

Third, PRAISE THE SUN!
 

NerfedFalcon

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AyaReiko said:
And yet there's this one guy who makes games for fuck all and yet it spawns graphic novels, light novels, an absolute mountain of fan works, two conventions devoted to it per year, and probably has the largest representation out of any series at the biannual comic fair. There is almost certainly not a single internet-geek in the world who has not at least heard of it. And he got a Guinness World Record for it too, very official.
I feel like a huge weeaboo, knowing what this is referring to.

OT: Unfortunately, nobody seems to really get it. "It worked for Call of Duty/Farmville/whatever, so we've gotta do it too!" No. Stop right there. It works for Call of Duty because it's Call of Duty. You are not making Call of Duty, so don't try to make Call of Duty. Try making your own thing, setting your own goals for it and see what happens. Who knows what'd happen then?

The crash of the industry due to nobody making enough money, you say? And I thought you guys had enough money to take risks and ride it out if it doesn't pay off.
 

immortalfrieza

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Azhrarn-101 said:
Anyone want to place bets that someone (the publisher) is going to call Bioshock Infinite a disappointment sales-wise because it didn't make back that $200 million in its first month of sales?!

That marketing budget is the issue here, $100 million for a Triple A game is a lot, but recoverable, doubling that target because of the marketing budget sure as hell is a lot harder!

There's your issue. Money is literally thrown away, does $100 million in marketing even double the sales of anything, let alone a title people are expected to pay $60 for.
Considering the massive amounts of free and really cheap advertising out there that these publishers could easily be utilizing, the fact that the the marketing budget even goes past the $1 million mark is ridiculous, not to mention $100 million.

What these publishers and developers should be trying to do is not to increase sales, but find ways to lower the costs involved in development and marketing while also achieving more or less the same level of quality.
 

King of Asgaard

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ZeroMachine said:
King of Asgaard said:
The nail. You've hit it. Right on the head. Again. Thank god for you.
Also:
First: I'm stealing that. Making it my Facebook cover photo. Just FYI.

Second, although I'll disagree that Dark Souls is graphically beautiful, it doesn't matter with that game because the art style is just downright mesmerizing. I have a soft spot for dark fantasy, especially when it has a hint of that Japanese horror fucked-up-ness.

Third, PRAISE THE SUN!
The thing is, Dark Souls doesn't need to have the best fidelity to look good.
I mean, the weapon and armour design and detail, the different distinct areas and the critters that inhabit them; it doesn't NEED to have Crysis-level visuals to look impressive. The sheer variety and scope is impressive, not to mention the lack of loading screens between most areas.
The way it looks is appealing without it being the best looking game ever. As you said, it's the art style that looks great, rather than the sheer graphical prowess.
 

grindedstone

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This is very good news Jim. You're saying that 100% of the gamers spoke with their money. 50% of the gamers bought the product because they didn't know, didn't care, or loved Tomb Raider. However, the other 50% of the gamers spoke with their money. What they said was that they didn't want a questionably bad product. Instead in many cases gamers would rather spend the same amount on a unknown product or at least one without question. This fuels what gamers actually want in many ways. It's a win!
 

Boris Goodenough

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This place turned into /dsg/ fast o_O

Zachary Amaranth said:
Dark Souls is gorgeous? How can it be when it only runs like 720p and less than 200 FPS?
Mine runs at 2560x1440 :D but they will ban me if I go higher than 30 fps >.>
 

Voulan

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Next thing you know, Squeenix will say that Tomb Raider failed sales expectations because it features a female protagonist.

Just wait and see.
 

Robyrt

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sleeky01 said:
Callate said:
There are probably bureaucratic/union reasons for it, but I'm always a little surprised no game company ever seems to go to their city's local community theater or college theater department for voice work, or hire from the web-listed semi-pros like The Stanley Parable did.
I would agree. I couldn't figure out why a game developer couldn't go to the local community collage for concept artists and such. You wouldn't even have to pay them, they could work for credit toward their diploma. Or if you had to pay them, it would be a student wage. I see no reason why the same couldn't be applied to voice/motion capture work.
Because of time constraints. You probably got the finalized script a week before the non-negotiable dates you booked at the recording studio. Your local community college has a star actress who could competently read your 10 hours of dialogue for the female lead, including three dozen grunts and versions of "I'm under fire!" if you gave her a few extra takes and some lead time to learn the part. Jennifer Hale charges a lot more money, but you know she'll deliver the exact steely voice-over you wanted on the first or second take, and she doesn't sound like a 21-year-old. Since your key producers and director need to be on the set for these things, because there are probably only 5 people in the studio who really understand the vision, you can't afford to waste their time either.

Similar things apply to every discipline. I'm a good singer, but I wouldn't hire my group to do the vocals for your soundtrack unless it was a well-established piece so we had time to prepare.
 

Metalrocks

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amazing how over 3 million is seen as a failure. even in the tomb raider forum we are a bit worried that there will be no sequel because of SE greediness.