Jimquisition: Diversity? LIEversity!

[moggett88]

In Ubisofts' defence, women and men do move completely differently. If I recall, it's something as small as 7 MoCap points that are needed to recognise the motion of a human walking, and even with so few you can tell if the model was male or female, even if it's presented upside down. Considering how different the motion is between genders, I can imagine there is a cost involved in programming a female character to move realistically, which would make Ubisofts' statement valid.


...Except they ALREADY HAVE FEMALE CHARACTERS IN THE GAME! They have playable female characters in the older games, they've already done the lion's share of the work! Dunces.

 

[Thanatos2k]

The worst thing about all this, is there are real feminist issues in the world, and reasonable feminist activists trying to make real progress, and all this manufactured controversy serves to do is paint them with a broad stroke as silly, and ridiculously demanding.

Does the word Feminazi sound familiar? because this kinda crap is the reason that degrading term exists.

I agree. Like I said with the Tomodachi Life nonsense, you should be celebrating games that offer these options, NOT condemning those that don't. The former gets people to support you, the latter gets them to hate you, even if your cause is just.

Coincidentally, I don't see any controversy that the next Zelda game yet again features a lone male protagonist. Where's the outage?

 

[Floppertje]

snip

They did give a proper answer. It costs to much. Your response has, essentially, been "But you have infinity dollars! Prove me wrong or your are sexist!"

Well... yeah. they claim something, about half their customers say 'we don't believe you', so their next step should be to back up their statement with some proof. if they don't, people will speculate. If ubi doesn't like that, that's their problem, and it's one they can solve with a little transparency.

captcha: industrial revolution. no captcha, that's for the next AC game. don't get ahead of yourself.

 

[lord.jeff]

If they waste resources on things people want like female protagonist or an interesting character they wont have any to make crappy tower defense games that no one really wants to play.

 

[wooty]

As long as the game play and story are interesting, I couldn't care less about what I play as. Man, woman, girl, boy, blue hedgehog, elf, stange cat person.......JUST ENTERTAIN ME DAMMIT!!!

 

[Floppertje]

snip

I'm sorry, but you're arguing from a position of ignorance - that ship date that's been set for a year or more is not nonsense. Take a look at the dev process for a 1000 strong team, then tell me it's a piece of cake to include females with a snap of your fingers.

EVERYONE is arguing from a position of ignorance because ubisoft doesn't tell us a bloody thing. there's no transparency at all. I'm not saying that including women in the game at this point is a snap of the fingers, but I think they can and should do it. I also think it would get them a lot of positive press, and possibly more sales. We're not asking them to rewrite the entire story, it's just the coop. Although If they want to do it properly, they'll make the next AAA AC with a female protagonist. It's about time.

 

[Necromancer1991]

This seems to be the consensus view unless the discussion is about absolutely anything other than representation. It's weird how the "make whatever art they want" thing never gets pulled out when people complain about lame stories, or brown-grey environments, or lighting effects, or gunplay style etc.

And the thing is, from what Ubisoft's reps said the "artists" behind Far Cry 4 and Assassin's Creed actually really wanted to include female playable characters but were told that they weren't allowed to because of the precious budget. Funny how the "leave the game makers aloooone" crowd aren't at all mad about that.

They could have easily done it too, they managed it in both Assasin's Creed 4's multiplayer mode (And in the previous games featuring multiplayer) and Far Cry 3's co-op mode. It's not like we're asking them to do something they've never done before, they've demonstrated that they can do it without gutting their precious budgets. When most of the devs in question are all sying that they wanted to do it (And have done it in the past) BUT weren't allowed due to "budget constraints" (Which is a really vague and weak excuse) the whole thing stinks of publisher interference.

 

[Goliath100]

But it does have a fixed linear narrative. The game has a main character, the main character has a name and a personality, specific events happen, specific words are said by the player character. They player does not change these things in any way. Just because the exact method of how you get from cutscene A to cutscene B isn't set in stone does not mean the narrative is not set in stone. It is a fixed narrative.

You do realise that there is quirks of the medium that can't be escaped? No matter how much a developer try to.

 

[bigfatcarp93]

They couldn't get female voice actors?

So... they don't have female voice actors?

The fuck?

 

[Reasonable Atheist]

ug.... just ug....

Games are art, they can make whatever art they want

This seems to be the consensus view unless the discussion is about absolutely anything other than representation. It's weird how the "make whatever art they want" thing never gets pulled out when people complain about lame stories, or brown-grey environments, or lighting effects, or gunplay style etc.

And the thing is, from what Ubisoft's reps said the "artists" behind Far Cry 4 and Assassin's Creed actually really wanted to include female playable characters but were told that they weren't allowed to because of the precious budget. Funny how the "leave the game makers aloooone" crowd aren't at all mad about that.

Holy crap a reasonably well thought out and concise response, my hat is off to you sir(or madam), you are a breath of fresh air. However, I would consider the people in charge of making decisions such as this on game projects to also themselves be "game makers"

 

[hermes]

I guess most people just jumped on the hate wagon instead of actually reading the source of all this debacle. The point the designer make was not about having female characters, but having the OPTION between a male and female character was too difficult to add at this point. Which, while unfortunate, its perfectly valid.
While some games have the options in the built inside the customization tools, they were a) games built from the ground up to have different sex protagonists (and scripts have to take that into consideration) like Mass Effect, or b) games that don't care about the sex of your character at all, leaving you have sex/get married with pretty much anything, like Skyrim and Saints Rows...

Here are a few of the things Ubisoft would have to do if they wanted to have "diversity":
- We don't know if the script would work with a mixed cast, or a cast where each character can be of any sex.
- We don't know how much work animators would have given the customization options;
- We don't know if they are named characters... if they are, they would have to double many lines in order to address the female character or the male one.
- We don't know how many lines they have, but we can assume they would have to record them twice (and in every language, remember that AC includes all the localization options on the disc)
- We don't know how deep the customization options run, but to make it properly would require to double the wardrobe options...

At the end of the day, the new character(s) are fully designed, which means they have every right to define as they want; people yet confuse having the option to customize characters with everything goes...

Most of those stuff are things we don't know, but the designers do... But this is Internet, which means we can all go around talking like we know better about designing, developing and budgeting games.

 

[Reasonable Atheist]

ug.... just ug....

Games are art, they can make whatever art they want

This seems to be the consensus view unless the discussion is about absolutely anything other than representation. It's weird how the "make whatever art they want" thing never gets pulled out when people complain about lame stories, or brown-grey environments, or lighting effects, or gunplay style etc.

And the thing is, from what Ubisoft's reps said the "artists" behind Far Cry 4 and Assassin's Creed actually really wanted to include female playable characters but were told that they weren't allowed to because of the precious budget. Funny how the "leave the game makers aloooone" crowd aren't at all mad about that.

They could have easily done it too, they managed it in both Assasin's Creed 4's multiplayer mode (And in the previous games featuring multiplayer) and Far Cry 3's co-op mode. It's not like we're asking them to do something they've never done before, they've demonstrated that they can do it without gutting their precious budgets. When most of the devs in question are all sying that they wanted to do it BUT weren't allowed due to "budget constraints" that stinks of publisher interference.

I do not support the weak excuse they undoubtedly made in a futile attempt to stem backlash. It is my position that no excuse is necessary in the first place.

 

[CrazyBlaze]

There are two thinking i dont know about Unity is:-

1. Are you all playing the same level as the main character but working together with others thus the cutscenes will show your character?

2. Are you just acting as backup to player one - and all the cutscences show Player ones character?

Also from what i gather people seem to be confusing an actual game whose main character is a female assassin with what i think is just a generic female avatar for multiplayer. For me if its just standard multiplayer like other AC games then they should have a female character. Also i think it would be safe for Ubisoft to create an assassins creed game with a female character. Would lead to more interesting elements if you add disguises to it and add commentary to how woman were treated in those eras as well. Lots of interesting things can be done with it.

It is number 1. Everyone plays as their main character and sees the others with a random NPC face.

 

[timeformime]

snip

I'm sorry, but you're arguing from a position of ignorance - that ship date that's been set for a year or more is not nonsense. Take a look at the dev process for a 1000 strong team, then tell me it's a piece of cake to include females with a snap of your fingers.

EVERYONE is arguing from a position of ignorance because ubisoft doesn't tell us a bloody thing. there's no transparency at all. I'm not saying that including women in the game at this point is a snap of the fingers, but I think they can and should do it. I also think it would get them a lot of positive press, and possibly more sales. We're not asking them to rewrite the entire story, it's just the coop. Although If they want to do it properly, they'll make the next AAA AC with a female protagonist. It's about time.

No, we're not ignorant - there are some basic truths we should keep in mind. It's pretty well established that using 1000 developers to retroactively implement and polish a new character from the ground up, keeping in mind that the game should be in beta right about now, is really freaking complicated. Neither of us know if what you're saying is as simple as it is, because we're not developers and the game's not out. That's about all there is to be said, and drawing any other conclusion is flat out presumptuous.

 

[zvate]

Another excellent video from jim. Whether deciet or incompatance it's still pathetic.

...and to all those saying a women wouldn't fit with the story being told I would point out that revolutionary France was one of the few times in history where large groups of women did take up arms and commit violence on a wide scale as equal bad-asses as their male counterparts. Women with guns helped storm the Bastille, riot the living snot out of Paris and were single handily responsible (all women, no men) for forcing the king and queen out of their palace at Versailles, at gun point, because they wanted to loot it because they thought the royals were hoarding food.

 

[CrazyBlaze]

Ubisoft: Women are HARD you guys.

Meanwhile at Nintendo... a tactical shooter starring squid girls.

Without even trying, you nailed it. Well done Finn from Adventure Time. Well done my friend.

OT: If it wasn't for Nintendo, I may of felt a bit of sympathy for Ubisoft. But, looking back at E3- Nintendo is making a new IP called Splatoon where half the characters are girls shooting paint all over the map. It's a risky, money consuming gamble because it can totally blow ... and yet, Nintendo is doing it anyways without complaining.

How is it that a company like Nintendo who's been suffering from lack of sales, is willing to risk a new IP while Ubisoft can't even attempt to make the 4 main characters in their new Assassins Creed game have a slight variant look from one another? They all look like twins. Literally, they've got almost the same beards and color of hair too.

Then again, I must say I feel like we are being treated like we're stupid. Even if Ubisoft is right and the cost is expensive.. they surely aren't explaining the problem clearly. All we want is for the 4 main characters to have more unique differences rather then different color clothing (because without that, they ARE all twins if not clones). That alone makes me sort of uninterested in their new game. On the plus side, Nintendo not only nailed E3 but got me so hyped for their new Super Smash Brothers, Bayonetta, and Zelda games... I might buy a Wii U just for those games. They look AMAZING and Nintendo isn't shy in the least for giving us plenty of female/interesting characters.

Heck the actual Zelda character in their Dynasty Warriors-like game looks as if she can totally handle herself with some amazing moves. Then you have that one character who summons a wolf and can wield a giant hand. That alone is going to make many more want to try the game out. But that's just it... an old game with Link involved got me far more interested then Ubisoft's new AC game because the protagonists are all very different and interesting in comparison to the 4 bland... same exact characters like the rest.

Except there is not four main characters. There is one. The rest are other people's variations of that character. Think GTA where everyone can choose their clothes to wear or their hair or tattoos. Its the same with ACU just also with weapons. Hence why everyone looks similar. It is because they are the same. You aren't going to a screen to pick a new avatar. You are using the same one you have in SP in CooP

 

[RandV80]

This is more or less the first time I'm seeing the issue with the new Assassins Creed brought up, and it seems pretty obvious to me. It was a board room/marketing research decision that white male characters sold best, and they left it up to some middle man to find an excuse to appease the 'social justice warriors' on the internet. The first group doesn't seem to take the SJW's that seriously obviously, and I don't know they may be right not to be worried.

 

[malestrithe]

This is why I play Japanese Video games a lot more than Western ones. They solved the problem of the female protagonist a long time ago.