I'm sorry. If that was the situation and what you were trying to get across, I am truly and utterly sorry.Zachary Amaranth said:
Jimquisition: Downloadable Discontent
- Thread starter Jimothy Sterling
- Start date
Basically he has said exactly what I told my friends the other day about why I'm no longer interested in a lot of DLC or many of the newest games. Hyperdimension Neptunia, Disgaea 5, and the newest DOA are also examples of this DLC offense. Characters necessary for a fleshed out wonderful game have been held ransom. Accessories and costumes are missing but oh look: there they are as DLC for at least a dollar or more when you could have gotten them for free in the past. Publishers who cut out important or entertaining pieces of games so they can make a buck or two more on the DLC are asking to get their bank accounts and games shoved up their asses and left out public displays of humiliation.
I should be rightly riled up here, but I am not. I saw the practice of rip-off DLC coming years ago, but that's mostly because I'm a hard boiled cynic.
But like Jim, I do like the idea of DLC - but it's execution has been completely botched.
Back when it first started it took the form of meaty epansion packs and a fair price, But then it slithered onto Map Packs which were pretty expensive, but seeing how multiplayer games weren't quite ubiquitous as they are today - it never mattered that much.
But nowadays, the publishers are cutting slabs out of the games and reselling them on top of your 50 quid you paid for a full game to start with. I'm predicting that the future will be that you purchase a super basic game (at full price) with microtransactions to make up the difference, and at premium price at that.
The sad thing is that every gamer knows they're being ripped off and has repeatedly said "No more." But the sixty four thousand dollar question is "at what point do they actually speak with closed wallets?"
But like Jim, I do like the idea of DLC - but it's execution has been completely botched.
Back when it first started it took the form of meaty epansion packs and a fair price, But then it slithered onto Map Packs which were pretty expensive, but seeing how multiplayer games weren't quite ubiquitous as they are today - it never mattered that much.
But nowadays, the publishers are cutting slabs out of the games and reselling them on top of your 50 quid you paid for a full game to start with. I'm predicting that the future will be that you purchase a super basic game (at full price) with microtransactions to make up the difference, and at premium price at that.
The sad thing is that every gamer knows they're being ripped off and has repeatedly said "No more." But the sixty four thousand dollar question is "at what point do they actually speak with closed wallets?"
CDP RED is doing good job with support after game release, so usually i buy their stuff at full price because. know they will add content for free and improve game. vote with your wallet
erttheking said:
You have absolutely no reason to apologize. Both of them inflicted their spate of petty bickering on the rest of us, you simply asked them to stop before it got out of hand. With I might add the best of intentions as it seems your concerns were for them, not yourself.
Amaranth's angry browbeating of you over his wounded feelings, even after you offered apology, shows me that while this person holds his own feelings as sacrosanct, he has little respect for the feelings of others. My advice would be to simply add him to your ignore list, as I am doing, and this sad situation will never again occur.
As I've always said, "you don't have to buy it if you don't want it!"
Let me explain, I'm not saying it right to charge $5 for a skin (clothing or weapon) and if your game has been out a while then drop your DLC price, after all it may attract new customers/players. The Oblivion Horse Armour was... well silly, it is a skin, not a very helpful skin, but people bought it, so to them it have value (or they were completionist, and believe me I know that pain)
If you feel a DLC will expand your enjoyment/ add length to a game and you're willing to spend your hard earned cash on it, then go ahead. If however, you think the price is too high or your not sure what it will add, then don't be surprised if you don't like it when curiosity compels you to purchase!
Let me explain, I'm not saying it right to charge $5 for a skin (clothing or weapon) and if your game has been out a while then drop your DLC price, after all it may attract new customers/players. The Oblivion Horse Armour was... well silly, it is a skin, not a very helpful skin, but people bought it, so to them it have value (or they were completionist, and believe me I know that pain)
If you feel a DLC will expand your enjoyment/ add length to a game and you're willing to spend your hard earned cash on it, then go ahead. If however, you think the price is too high or your not sure what it will add, then don't be surprised if you don't like it when curiosity compels you to purchase!
I'm going to attack the tales series here because there is doing it right and doing wrong. Now no comment on buying glad or xp, thats as bad as battlefield and every other game for quick unlocks, you want to waste that money go right ahead, It's only more scumbaggy the harder the stuff your selling is to unlock. Persona 4 arena takes the cake there, You want your fav character to be your support during battle, get ready to do some insane task or insane grinding or pay like 3 bucks... Lets go after Vanity items here!
Now the full disclosure is, anyone that played and beat Tales of games around the ps2 or even ps1 era before the whole DLC marketplace extra costumes were free on the disc. You unlocked them mainly by getting an title in the game, and then equipping the title changed your costume, or you beat the game and in the new game plus shop costumes were a choice for your next play-through. Did these costumes add anything to the gameplay, No but a player that goes through a lot to unlock something, vanity or useless or not, Is so much better then points added to a meaningless score.
Now something that just vanity whither or not the player or community buy it or not an how much they buy depends on pricing! When your stuff is in a market place one thing you should do is price your stuff Competitively! When Tales games are asking 3-5 dollars for their vanity costumes a piece, and another game is offering 1-2 dollars per or an discount if you buy a set of four buy 2 or 3 dollars. Now I have to point the finger at Little Big Planet and say, This guy, does it right. I've spend upwards of probably 30 bucks on LBP 1 vanity items alone, probably the same amount on LBP 2, Did I have to, Hell no, Just buying and playing the game you unlock or get outfit pieces to make upwards of 20 themed outfits not counting you can mix and match everything. Driving the nail in harder the game was online, if you bought some costumes and made an badass sack boy or girl you could show it off yo uour buddies in game because the costumes you bought came in pieces and they are mix and matchable to. Also not that we needed more of a reason to check the shop they gave out a lot of stuff, For FREE. Lastly to drive some value added, to your purchases, when LBP vita came out and they said, "Hey guys you know all that stuff you bought for LBP 1 and LBP 2, well you get to use all that stuff in the vita version and don't have to pay a cent to do it, also that goes the same for karting, oh and wait if you buy vita stuff that will work on LBP2 for the PS3..." Now I'm pretty damn sure I'm not the only one that looked at that and said "Here's a bunch of money for everything I remotely want cause that is FRIGGEN AWESOME!"
Now looking at tales, You may or not unlock a costume on your own in game, I'm not really sure, but they basically say, "Don't want the default costumes, Pay me 5 bucks in graces, 3 buck in Xillia. Oh you want everyone to look the same, 30 or 40 bucks in Graces, 18 bucks in Xillia. Now a bit worse, if you want all the costumes in Xillia, right now if the 3rd set they've shown hit the market place, 54 bucks plus your planning on more already and the games been out a month about? Is that worth it for just costumes that you can't mix and match, can't show off, and really do nothing, No. Now I don't have to buy it I know, but Namco sure as hell wants me to buy it advertising it to no end. Hell the 3rd set is costumes classic characters wore to try to pull at nostalgia to weasel the money out of me. Now this has been a complaint since Vesperia in what 2009 so I'm not the only one that feels this way and till they set the price at a decent price, I won't buy it. 1 to 1.50 per or a complete pack for 5 or 7 bucks hell ya, 18 not an chance.
Now as for competition, DOA 5 of all games, gives you 2 - 3 times as many costumes for the same amount of money you would spend on Xillia costumes. This is DOA for friggen sake. It's not like in the game already they don't have a ton of costumes to choice from and I'm sure as hell with umm physics and how in decent some of them look, they took a lot more time and effort to make! I mean, if you can't even out price them and basically everyone else on the market, I'll buy their crap first before I think of wasting money on your crap.
Now the full disclosure is, anyone that played and beat Tales of games around the ps2 or even ps1 era before the whole DLC marketplace extra costumes were free on the disc. You unlocked them mainly by getting an title in the game, and then equipping the title changed your costume, or you beat the game and in the new game plus shop costumes were a choice for your next play-through. Did these costumes add anything to the gameplay, No but a player that goes through a lot to unlock something, vanity or useless or not, Is so much better then points added to a meaningless score.
Now something that just vanity whither or not the player or community buy it or not an how much they buy depends on pricing! When your stuff is in a market place one thing you should do is price your stuff Competitively! When Tales games are asking 3-5 dollars for their vanity costumes a piece, and another game is offering 1-2 dollars per or an discount if you buy a set of four buy 2 or 3 dollars. Now I have to point the finger at Little Big Planet and say, This guy, does it right. I've spend upwards of probably 30 bucks on LBP 1 vanity items alone, probably the same amount on LBP 2, Did I have to, Hell no, Just buying and playing the game you unlock or get outfit pieces to make upwards of 20 themed outfits not counting you can mix and match everything. Driving the nail in harder the game was online, if you bought some costumes and made an badass sack boy or girl you could show it off yo uour buddies in game because the costumes you bought came in pieces and they are mix and matchable to. Also not that we needed more of a reason to check the shop they gave out a lot of stuff, For FREE. Lastly to drive some value added, to your purchases, when LBP vita came out and they said, "Hey guys you know all that stuff you bought for LBP 1 and LBP 2, well you get to use all that stuff in the vita version and don't have to pay a cent to do it, also that goes the same for karting, oh and wait if you buy vita stuff that will work on LBP2 for the PS3..." Now I'm pretty damn sure I'm not the only one that looked at that and said "Here's a bunch of money for everything I remotely want cause that is FRIGGEN AWESOME!"
Now looking at tales, You may or not unlock a costume on your own in game, I'm not really sure, but they basically say, "Don't want the default costumes, Pay me 5 bucks in graces, 3 buck in Xillia. Oh you want everyone to look the same, 30 or 40 bucks in Graces, 18 bucks in Xillia. Now a bit worse, if you want all the costumes in Xillia, right now if the 3rd set they've shown hit the market place, 54 bucks plus your planning on more already and the games been out a month about? Is that worth it for just costumes that you can't mix and match, can't show off, and really do nothing, No. Now I don't have to buy it I know, but Namco sure as hell wants me to buy it advertising it to no end. Hell the 3rd set is costumes classic characters wore to try to pull at nostalgia to weasel the money out of me. Now this has been a complaint since Vesperia in what 2009 so I'm not the only one that feels this way and till they set the price at a decent price, I won't buy it. 1 to 1.50 per or a complete pack for 5 or 7 bucks hell ya, 18 not an chance.
Now as for competition, DOA 5 of all games, gives you 2 - 3 times as many costumes for the same amount of money you would spend on Xillia costumes. This is DOA for friggen sake. It's not like in the game already they don't have a ton of costumes to choice from and I'm sure as hell with umm physics and how in decent some of them look, they took a lot more time and effort to make! I mean, if you can't even out price them and basically everyone else on the market, I'll buy their crap first before I think of wasting money on your crap.
a friend of mine and I had an interesting conversation about DLC as it relates to Fallout New Vegas. he called it BS because many of the things integrated into the DLC were being developed for the main game and then cut, particularly Ulysses, Elijah, and the Burned man quest arcs.
my argument was that was what made them good, they fit within a certain context, and allowed content that was being developed but cut due to time or budget to be brought back, albeit not in the originally planned way.
my argument was that was what made them good, they fit within a certain context, and allowed content that was being developed but cut due to time or budget to be brought back, albeit not in the originally planned way.
Been thinking about this same topic recently as I play The Sims 3 again. There's some fantastic DLC out there for the game, from new lots, new game features, new objects etc.
... but the price of them is absolutely flabbergasting. I considered buying two items today that would have added a couple of features (sort of. One is just an upgraded bed). That's £6 please. Which, considering I bought Humble Bundle, is twice what I paid for the games I'm buying it for! What irks me is the sheer greed of the matter. Once they've made this DLC, distributing it is essentially free. They don't have to pay P&P to ship it out to me. Absolutely nothing on The Sims 3 Store is worth the money you pay for it. Nothing. Not even when there's a Sale. And therefore, they don't get a penny from me.
... but the price of them is absolutely flabbergasting. I considered buying two items today that would have added a couple of features (sort of. One is just an upgraded bed). That's £6 please. Which, considering I bought Humble Bundle, is twice what I paid for the games I'm buying it for! What irks me is the sheer greed of the matter. Once they've made this DLC, distributing it is essentially free. They don't have to pay P&P to ship it out to me. Absolutely nothing on The Sims 3 Store is worth the money you pay for it. Nothing. Not even when there's a Sale. And therefore, they don't get a penny from me.
More than anything, I'm surprised that Jim even knows that Tales of Vesperia exists.
And when I checked, they were like, $3 for a set of Costume, Hairstyle and Accessory which is damn good when compared to most other games. Speaking of iDOLM@STER, there's a game whose DLC practices are nonsense. $5-$15 for a single dress and $15-$20 for a single song is ridiculous. If you wanted to buy up the entire catalogue of iDOLM@STER 2 DLC it would cost you over $1000US. We have it easy on this side of the pond.
As far as I could tell, only two costumes for each character are DLC in Xillia and only because they essentially don't fit into the game world. That is, iDOLM@STER and Butler/Maid costumes. All other costumes and accessories are available in game.Quellist said:
And when I checked, they were like, $3 for a set of Costume, Hairstyle and Accessory which is damn good when compared to most other games. Speaking of iDOLM@STER, there's a game whose DLC practices are nonsense. $5-$15 for a single dress and $15-$20 for a single song is ridiculous. If you wanted to buy up the entire catalogue of iDOLM@STER 2 DLC it would cost you over $1000US. We have it easy on this side of the pond.
I agree with pretty much everything said regarding DLC, but one thing is kind of sticking in my throat.
...Yeah, you got Sleeping Dogs for about $5. Yeah, there are games you can get for your cell phone for $1, or free. Hell, one of my favorite time-wasters is Condando, a free Android version of the card game San Juan. (I'd call that a plug, but I have nothing to do with the game's development, and it's free, so...)
But is that really the scale we should be judging other things on?
I've bought a treasure trove of titles from Steam sales, some of which I still haven't gotten 'round to playing. Also Humble Bundles, which are now not-infrequently offering AAA, commercial games that still sell elsewhere for $20, $30, or even their original market price of $50-$60 a piece, for... Well, there are minimum bids in some campaigns, and it depends if you want to consider the price of the other games in the summation or take a dodgier tack and assume you're playing that minimum for the one game on the list you really, really want. Still, $5 is a defensible description, and in some campaigns, it's less. Sometimes much less. There's a bundle on now wherein if one wishes to shell out $125, one gets 56 games. That's a little less than two-and-a-quarter per game. At that point, you're pretty much buying games in bulk.
On one hand, that's an awesome value. On the other, well...
I snorted and sneered with the best of them when EA went on about Steam sales "cheapening intellectual property". It was a dickish statement, painted in tones of richest sneering beancounter-bureaucrat. But I increasingly wonder- how does a developer like United Front, clearly struggling already, stay in business when the game they counted on bringing them back into the right side of the balance sheet at $40-$50 sells for $5? And how do more than the tiniest handful of independents get noticed when the big names are selling their games that way?
At a certain point, do we maybe have an obligation instead of saying "Pah, this game sells for $10 when I can get a match-three game on my iPhone for $0.99" to say "Wow, this game took a fifty people eight months of their lives pouring their hearts and souls into it, maybe that's worth a little more if I don't want AAA games and match-three games and almost nothing in between"?
And, yeah, there are plenty of bloated games that spend way too much money on unnecessary chrome to make their five hours of repetitive gunplay look like more than they are. But think of a game like Sleeping Dogs. Think how much time and effort must have gone into developing the map alone, never mind the AI, or the skins, or the fighting system. I really don't think it is a $5 game.
I don't expect the sentiment to be popular, and in the interest of full disclosure, I do a little semi-pro game development on the side, so the issue strikes a bit close to home.
...Yeah, you got Sleeping Dogs for about $5. Yeah, there are games you can get for your cell phone for $1, or free. Hell, one of my favorite time-wasters is Condando, a free Android version of the card game San Juan. (I'd call that a plug, but I have nothing to do with the game's development, and it's free, so...)
But is that really the scale we should be judging other things on?
I've bought a treasure trove of titles from Steam sales, some of which I still haven't gotten 'round to playing. Also Humble Bundles, which are now not-infrequently offering AAA, commercial games that still sell elsewhere for $20, $30, or even their original market price of $50-$60 a piece, for... Well, there are minimum bids in some campaigns, and it depends if you want to consider the price of the other games in the summation or take a dodgier tack and assume you're playing that minimum for the one game on the list you really, really want. Still, $5 is a defensible description, and in some campaigns, it's less. Sometimes much less. There's a bundle on now wherein if one wishes to shell out $125, one gets 56 games. That's a little less than two-and-a-quarter per game. At that point, you're pretty much buying games in bulk.
On one hand, that's an awesome value. On the other, well...
I snorted and sneered with the best of them when EA went on about Steam sales "cheapening intellectual property". It was a dickish statement, painted in tones of richest sneering beancounter-bureaucrat. But I increasingly wonder- how does a developer like United Front, clearly struggling already, stay in business when the game they counted on bringing them back into the right side of the balance sheet at $40-$50 sells for $5? And how do more than the tiniest handful of independents get noticed when the big names are selling their games that way?
At a certain point, do we maybe have an obligation instead of saying "Pah, this game sells for $10 when I can get a match-three game on my iPhone for $0.99" to say "Wow, this game took a fifty people eight months of their lives pouring their hearts and souls into it, maybe that's worth a little more if I don't want AAA games and match-three games and almost nothing in between"?
And, yeah, there are plenty of bloated games that spend way too much money on unnecessary chrome to make their five hours of repetitive gunplay look like more than they are. But think of a game like Sleeping Dogs. Think how much time and effort must have gone into developing the map alone, never mind the AI, or the skins, or the fighting system. I really don't think it is a $5 game.
I don't expect the sentiment to be popular, and in the interest of full disclosure, I do a little semi-pro game development on the side, so the issue strikes a bit close to home.
Weak episode.
It all appears to boil down to pricing for Jim. $5 was too much, but $1 would be okay.
Not that I disagree that DLC often costs much more than I'd pay for it, but that's only a very minor issue. Publishers can ask all they want and I just won't buy it. No harm done.
It all appears to boil down to pricing for Jim. $5 was too much, but $1 would be okay.
Not that I disagree that DLC often costs much more than I'd pay for it, but that's only a very minor issue. Publishers can ask all they want and I just won't buy it. No harm done.
Jim, just wondering, what do you feel about the Civilisation V DLC?
After all, it does genuinely add to the experience of playing Civ V, and they're packed with content and change the gameplay in a real and meaningful manner, but at the same time, a lot of people argue that a lot of the stuff added via DLC (proper diplomacy, religion, etc) should have been in the core game to begin with, and felt more like 'completing' a previous unfinished (though very good) package, rather than adding to the experience sometimes.
It sort of feels like an in-between of the two aspects of DLC. Your thoughts?
After all, it does genuinely add to the experience of playing Civ V, and they're packed with content and change the gameplay in a real and meaningful manner, but at the same time, a lot of people argue that a lot of the stuff added via DLC (proper diplomacy, religion, etc) should have been in the core game to begin with, and felt more like 'completing' a previous unfinished (though very good) package, rather than adding to the experience sometimes.
It sort of feels like an in-between of the two aspects of DLC. Your thoughts?