Jimquisition: Dumbing Down for the Filthy Casuals

[Rooster Cogburn]

Exploiting people's hatred and prejudice is the secret to getting a spot at the escapist, apparently.

Exploitation of anger over First World Problems is by no means limited to the Escapist.

I can't figure out what that means in this context. Who is angry and what is their first world problem?

 

[BioRex]

Exploiting people's hatred and prejudice is the secret to getting a spot at the escapist, apparently.

Exploitation of anger over First World Problems is by no means limited to the Escapist.

I can't figure out what that means in this context. Who is angry and what is their first world problem?

Maybe Atmos means the anger of not being able to beat a video game, that seems like a very first world problem.

 

[Atmos Duality]

Well the statement that putting in an easy mode effects nothing is false unless they do have a time machine.

That wasn't the point.
What the developer chooses to prioritize is their business. If they want to include feature in their game, that's their call, not ours.

If we don't like it, we reject their game and look for alternatives.

What we collectively like, and hope the developers prioritize is completely arbitrary and not objective in the slightest. When we project those agendas and criticize other people for not adhering to them, that's pretension.
That's the textbook definition of pretension.

We may have common interests by happenstance, but that is no reason to form an elitist circle jerk and whine endlessly about how X feature is ruining "our game" (and it isn't yours, by the way).

Of course, here I am hoping against hope that the Internet Hate Machine is capable of rational thought, so what do I know?

Also good games, I've faster then light seems very cool strategy. And I've played Binding of Isaac a lot, which while hard is not insanely hard. Its a rougelike so its to be expected that the difficulty can be a bit random at times. Now that I think on it wouldn't putting an easy mode in binding be redundant as well? Given that the challenge varies based on what you are given?

I can kind of see how one might add an Easy mode, but it'd be artificial difficulty (or rather, artificial ease), due to the semi-random nature of the game. Nethack had Wizard Mode, but that basically was a sort of Tourist/Debug mode the player could invoke for random fun, or to experiment and see how things work without having to throw away an entire run to do so.

But the point there is that the choice always lies in the player's hands. If they feel compelled to use it, that's on them and nobody else.

Oh, and FTL has an Easy Mode. But I'll be the first to tell you that it isn't remotely "effortless/casual" difficulty, nor easy relative to most recent games I've played.

Normal Mode is ball-crushingly difficult in places, as Scrap (the game's currency and critical to winning) is very tight and sometimes random luck can completely end a run regardless of other circumstances on Normal (depending on your opening plays and cruiser).

I do not look down on anyone playing Easy mode in FTL, because many of the same challenges still apply there.

I can't figure out what that means in this context. Who is angry and what is their first world problem?

The people claiming that the inclusion of an Easy Mode is somehow ruining their existing experiences with a game.

In a broader sense, complaining about the qualities of luxuries (like say Video Games) on the internet is definitely a first world problem.

It's kind of sad when you step back and think about it, really. (and I'm including myself in that sadness right now)

 

[Shadow-Phoenix]

Exploiting people's hatred and prejudice is the secret to getting a spot at the escapist, apparently.

Exploitation of anger over First World Problems is by no means limited to the Escapist.

I can't figure out what that means in this context. Who is angry and what is their first world problem?

Maybe Atmos means the anger of not being able to beat a video game, that seems like a very first world problem.

Well I see that often amongst gamers and even I myself experience it mostly online and sometimes singleplayer since it's hard for some not to rage =P

Either way it doesn't exactly sound like DS is going to have Easy mode implemented 100% and I've gotten over raging for such a mode but like those that fear that mode I fear that DS difficulty will just make every other game out there sound pathetic and of course we don't want that to happen because then we'd get another hardcore never ending debate war all over again.

 

[BioRex]

Well the statement that putting in an easy mode effects nothing is false unless they do have a time machine.

That wasn't the point.
What the developer chooses to prioritize is their business. If they want to include feature in their game, that's their call, not ours.

If we don't like it, we reject their game and look for alternatives.

What we collectively like, and hope the developers prioritize is completely arbitrary and not objective in the slightest. When we project those agendas and criticize other people for not adhering to them, that's pretension.
That's the textbook definition of pretension.

We may have common interests by happenstance, but that is no reason to form an elitist circle jerk and whine endlessly about how X feature is ruining "our game" (and it isn't yours, by the way).

Of course, here I am hoping against hope that the Internet Hate Machine is capable of rational thought, so what do I know?

So it's pretentious to want a developer to prioritize an easy mode? Harsh words but I respect you for being able to treat your own opinion in such manner.

 

[BytByte]

Wow, I thought this was pretty cut and dry, but the internet always amaze I guess. I see the train of though of those against an easier mode, but the arguments are thin and it still boils down to selfishness and not taking into consideration other people.

 

[Rooster Cogburn]

The people claiming that the inclusion of an Easy Mode is somehow ruining their existing experiences with a game.

In a broader sense, complaining about the qualities of luxuries (like say Video Games) on the internet is definitely a first world problem.

It's kind of sad when you step back and think about it, really. (and I'm including myself in that sadness right now)

I don't agree that being passionate about a hobby is bad. That's what they're for, as I see it. I try (I said try!) to keep my anger righteous if I really can't keep it to myself.

Well, a game you want to play not featuring an easy mode sounds like just as much a first world problem. And people are angry enough over that to call Dark Souls fans all sorts of nasty things. Do you think Jim Sterling is "sad" for getting worked up and bothering enough to fling all that shit at people who think Dark Souls shouldn't have easy mode?

Do you know why many Dark Souls fans don't want Dark Souls (just that one game, mind) to have easy mode? That's an honest question, I want to know what you think their motivation is.

EDIT: Also, link to that "elitist circle-jerk" please lol.

 

[BioRex]

Wow, I thought this was pretty cut and dry, but the internet always amaze I guess. I see the train of though of those against an easier mode, but the arguments are thin and it still boils down to selfishness and not taking into consideration other people.

You simply calling the other side selfish is a rather short and boring way of trying to end the argument. You say people against easy mode are being selfish, would you please be more specific? I mean simply calling the other side selfish is simple "People who want an easy mode are selfish" however that is unlikely to explain why people would like the challenge decreased much the ame that calling people against an easy mode selfish.
So then I ask you why exactly do you think the community as a whole are selfish on this issue.

 

[Arcane Azmadi]

Bang on, Jim. I had no interest in Demons' Souls or Dark Souls because I suspected they'd simply be too fucking hard for me. I'm no casual, I've been playing games since I was a boy and am pretty fucking hardcore, but my reflexes aren't what they once were and the sheer number of games I have to play these days causes me to simply give up on games that frustrate me and go play something else rather than continue persisting until I win through. So I simply saw no point in a game as murderously sadistic as the Souls series. That's the kind of sales the developers would lose without an easy mode.

Of course, I don't plan on buying the games anyway because I already have too many games to play, but the point still stands- making a game more accessible without in any way damaging its appeal to the hardcore crowd can be nothing but a good thing.

 

[BioRex]

Bang on, Jim. I had no interest in Demons' Souls or Dark Souls because I suspected they'd simply be too fucking hard for me. I'm no casual, I've been playing games since I was a boy and am pretty fucking hardcore, but my reflexes aren't what they once were and the sheer number of games I have to play these days causes me to simply give up on games that frustrate me and go play something else rather than continue persisting until I win through. So I simply saw no point in a game as murderously sadistic as the Souls series. That's the kind of sales the developers would lose without an easy mode.

Of course, I don't plan on buying the games anyway because I already have too many games to play, but the point still stands- making a game more accessible without in any way damaging its appeal to the hardcore crowd can be nothing but a good thing.

You know the games are not that reflexive based? I think I used more reflex skill on the first DmC on normal then this, it's mostly observational skills that you need.

 

[Atmos Duality]

So it's pretentious to want a developer to prioritize an easy mode? Harsh words but I respect you for being able to treat your own opinion in such manner.

It's pretentious to presume that your preference is objective fact, and that everyone else who doesn't conform is "wrong".

Now, such pretension and passion is useful for a game creator. There is a line of thinking that goes "Creators create first for themselves, not everyone else" and for some of the best works in gaming, that's true. Gaming started not as a mathematical industry, but as a hobby and from hobby enthusiasts.

However, the argumentation I see in this topic is very pathos-driven and thoroughly nonsensical.
Imagine if I made a topic claiming that anyone who doesn't play Capture the Flag in Halo is "doing it wrong", and that every hour 343 spends working on non-CTF content is an hour of effort wasted.

I'd look like a lunatic (probably get called a troll).

The contrast to that is "I rather like the CTF elements and wouldn't mind seeing more emphasis placed on it."
Sometimes, that's the birthplace of innovation.

I don't agree that being passionate about a hobby is bad. That's what they're for, as I see it. I try (I said try!) to keep my anger righteous if I really can't keep it to myself.

Believe me, I was the same exact way for years.
Angry about changes in gaming, angry about how people played, angry about how stagnant and generic the market was becoming.
Actually, I still kinda am, though for slightly different reasons (*curses Diablo 3*).

Passion is a powerful motivator, but all too often, it lacks proper focus.

Well, a game you want to play not featuring an easy mode sounds like just as much a first world problem.

It's a first world problem with or without. The point is I don't see how this warrants such outrage.
I had the same problem when fans raged over Mass Effect 3 for over a solid month.

And people are angry enough over that to call Dark Souls fans all sorts of nasty things. Do you think Jim Sterling is "sad" for getting worked up and bothering enough to fling all that shit at people who think Dark Souls shouldn't have easy mode?

Oh most definitely. I do agree that the situation has gotten out of hand, and the complaints are rather petty indeed.
But that's the twist of the show; it's entertaining to recognize how petty we are even while we badger and debate about the most petty things.

When I commented on your first response to me, I wasn't being sarcastic or smug, and I fully recognize the irony of the situation.

A large part of entertainment within the gaming culture is based on anger.
Just look at the legions of "angry" internet game reviewers and shows. The Escapist's own Zero Punctuation is built entirely on anger, pretension and hate because most people (psychologically) find the anger of others hilarious.

Mr. Crowshaw is just very good at turning that anger into something more clever than blunt force trauma humor (usually).

Do you know why many Dark Souls fans don't want Dark Souls (just that one game, mind) to have easy mode? That's an honest question, I want to know what you think their motivation is.

I won't pretend to know the thoughts and feelings of every Dark Souls fan or even the average DS fan, but I'm guessing the "nobler" intent is they want other players to share the same experience as they did with the game.

I'd also guess the less than noble version being they can't stand it when people like something they don't, and they think it will change what they do like.

Both versions include an aversion to change, no matter how insignificant or (im)practical the change is.

EDIT: Also, link to that "elitist circle-jerk" please lol.

There's a few choice quotes on page 7 and 13. I clicked around a bit, and had to keep myself from facepalming at some of the really inane things. Those are resolved in one form or another, and I'm not dredging that shitstorm up again, as amusing it would be.

Hell, I should be getting back to work...

 

[BioRex]

So it's pretentious to want a developer to prioritize an easy mode? Harsh words but I respect you for being able to treat your own opinion in such manner.

It's pretentious to presume that your preference is objective fact, and that everyone else who doesn't conform is "wrong".

My preference is what the developers give me, the developers want it to be hard and I am ok with them being able to do what they have set out to do. People asking for an easy mode a asking the developers to not complete the goal of making the game hard to beat. So again, the people who wish for an easier mode are the pretentious ones, did I get that right?

 

[Atmos Duality]

My preference is what the developers give me, the developers want it to be hard and I am ok with them being able to do what they have set out to do.

Ok...

People asking for an easy mode a asking the developers to not complete the goal of making the game hard to beat.

That argument only works if you're equating beating the game on Easy with beating the game on Hard, which makes no sense if you're arguing how you hate the changes/differences between the two.

So again, the people who wish for an easier mode are the pretentious ones, did I get that right?

You've deliberately ignored both responses I've made to that point now.
I'm not repeating myself again.

 

[BioRex]

My preference is what the developers give me, the developers want it to be hard and I am ok with them being able to do what they have set out to do.

Ok...

People asking for an easy mode a asking the developers to not complete the goal of making the game hard to beat.

That argument only works if you're equating beating the game on Easy with beating the game on Hard, which makes no sense if you're arguing how you hate the changes/differences between the two.

So again, the people who wish for an easier mode are the pretentious ones, did I get that right?

You've deliberately ignored both responses I've made to that point now.
I'm not repeating myself again.

Let me be very clear then. The goal of the game is to be hard, to journey of beating the game is meant to be hard, the path from start to finish is meant to be hard. And it's not hate at the changes, maybe annoyance, it's more like this is a spicy dish, making it less spicy is not something the chef wants to do, making it less spicy but similar is a different dish that the chef has no plans to make, I don't want the chef to feel pressured to change the dish because some people don't like spicy stuff.

And in case it was not clear I am taking your point, "people who want game to be hard=pretentious", and flipping it to "people who want game to have easy mode=pretentious".

 

[Toilet]

Dear Jim,

You are wrong.

 

[BioRex]

Dear Jim,

You are wrong.

Well done, I was just thinking of posting that.

 

[VyceVictus]

This seems like saying Bionic commando is a difficulty game that happens to be a platformer or Ikaruga is a difficulty game that happens to be a shooter. Which one could certainly argue. But then there are core mechanics that definitively classify them; DS with its stats, items, weapons, and experience is no different. It still is an RPG at the end of the day. taking the difficulty out of Darks souls (again not what Im advocating, Im advocating the right to optional accessibility) is not the same thing as taking out the bullets in a bullet hell game. If you took out the Difficulty, it would still be an rpg. If you took out the bullets, it would be....the flash game "Loneliness"
But in general, there could be any multitude of ways, fixing the manual, streamlining some mechanics, anything, that could be done to up the experience accessibility without ruining the core challenge or just plopping in a watered down "easy mode". Iam very curious to see what they have in store for the sequel.

You view Dark Souls as just another game where the difficulty doesn't really drive the experience or define it in any meaningful way, just like your examples. And that is what you want Dark Souls to turn into. That is the very thing Souls fans fear most. It's just another RPG to you, so of course YOU don't care if it is difficult. All that's at stake for YOU in this is just another shitty RPG to toss on your heap. This is like taking my hundred dollar bill and burning it in front of me. Please just leave us alone with our unique experience and play whatever it is that you like. You cannot possibly be starved for easy games to play.

What I do to the game doesnt concern you. Its not YOUR unique experience, it's a unique experience open to everyone simply by being on the market. And if I do eventually "get it" what then? I wouldnt have if I didnt get the chance in the first place. Yes, there are tons of easy ganes to play, so why wouldnt I want to try something different? You want people to enjoy and experience the game, but only on terms you deem acceptable? That's ludicrous.

 

[Atmos Duality]

Let me be very clear then. The goal of the game is to be hard, to journey of beating the game is meant to be hard, the path from start to finish is meant to be hard. And it's not hate at the changes, maybe annoyance, it's more like this is a spicy dish, making it less spicy is not something the chef wants to do, making it less spicy but similar is a different dish that the chef has no plans to make, I don't want the chef to feel pressured to change the dish because some people don't like spicy stuff.

Ah, but you're pressuring the chef as well, to not change anything and only cater to your tastes.

"It's spicy because it's meant to be spicy, and it shouldn't change because it's meant to be spicy"
Is circular logic.

Let the chef choose, and if you don't like the new dish, don't eat it.

And in case it was not clear I am taking your point, "people who want game to be hard=pretentious", and flipping it to "people who want game to have easy mode=pretentious".

That would be true if the context was true in the inverse scenario.
Which it isn't.

You have your hard game, and nobody can take that away from you, yet you insist that adding an Easy mode will take that away from you, somehow.

And if that isn't the reasoning IN CONTEXT you're employing, I have no idea what the problem with an Easy Mode is at that point.

 

[Rooster Cogburn]

Wow, I thought this was pretty cut and dry, but the internet always amaze I guess. I see the train of though of those against an easier mode, but the arguments are thin and it still boils down to selfishness and not taking into consideration other people.

When you phrase your opinion on the matter as an assessment of the character of the other "side", it makes it look like you have something against them. I would have felt better about it if you had just said their arguments were unconvincing, or you did not think the benefit they hoped to gain was worth the cost.

It's pretentious to presume that your preference is objective fact, and that everyone else who doesn't conform is "wrong".

But see, my preference isn't objective, but neither is anybody else's. Just acknowledging that doesn't get us far. We can't just call it a draw lol.

Now, such pretension and passion is useful for a game creator. There is a line of thinking that goes "Creators create first for themselves, not everyone else" and for some of the best works in gaming, that's true. Gaming started not as a mathematical industry, but as a hobby and from hobby enthusiasts.

However, the argumentation I see in this topic is very pathos-driven and thoroughly nonsensical.
Imagine if I made a topic claiming that anyone who doesn't play Capture the Flag in Halo is "doing it wrong", and that every hour 343 spends working on non-CTF content is an hour of effort wasted.

I'd look like a lunatic (probably get called a troll).

The contrast to that is "I rather like the CTF elements and wouldn't mind seeing more emphasis placed on it."
Sometimes, that's the birthplace of innovation.

I don't really think many of us on the anti-easy mode "side" have taken the approach that easy mode players are "doing it wrong". Rather, I think we have tried to explain why not including an easy mode creates certain opportunities for experimental and artistic development. We have tried to explain how Dark Souls' unique approach to difficulty AS A MECHANIC offers an experience that cannot be recreated when that mechanic is removed. We have tried to explain how easy mode is not consistent with the goal of Dark Souls to provide a sense of accomplishment, and undermines the relevance of it's mechanics and community features. We have tried to explain that Dark Souls, by the nature of the way it incorporates difficulty into it's design, does not fit the traditional modal difficulty model, and whether or not it ALREADY features an easy mode in the form of myriad ways to make gameplay easier is almost a matter of perspective. The developer can make an artistic statement and reaffirm artistic themes by their chosen difficulty, such as loneliness, dread, tension, fear, apprehension, etc., all elements Dark Souls fans are accustomed to. Literally not having an option makes an encounter a true obstacle, rather than a chosen one (to reinforce tension, etc.). We have tried to explain that keeping the experience consistent frees up the developer's resources to focus on doing one thing well, and allows them to deliver highly crafted encounters without being forced to limit themselves to what works well for both audiences. We have tried to explain that not including easy mode allows us to focus on themes that appeal to hard mode players, such as an unapproachable but rewarding story and gameplay without being afraid of leaving the people who speed past it unsatisfied.

We have also tried to suggest that targeting different games to multiple audiences that is built specifically for a certain group is a good thing for everyone, because it allows all of us to choose something that specializes in whatever it is we are looking for. We have done all this to show that we do benefit from the exclusion of a traditional "easy mode" in ways that interested parties can appreciate. We have also done it to show everyone that our preferences for the Souls series are not rooted in elitism or hate- that we do not care nor concern ourselves with what other people do, or whether they play the game "right". Rather than wishing to exclude anyone, most of us would gladly give our time to help all newcomers and you can consider that a standing offer.

Because we love it, we ask you to understand that Dark Souls is an experiment, and a work of art, that grew from the idea of utilizing difficulty as a mechanic to deliver a sense of accomplishment. That is the trunk upon which all the branches of gameplay, and aesthetics, and story are arranged. Please understand that we cannot part with that and still feel we are having the same experience.

I think there are enough games in the world that we can all have the one that is right for us. No one film is for all audiences, and no audience is for all films. That is OK, and we are all better off for it in the end.

 

[BioRex]

Let me be very clear then. The goal of the game is to be hard, to journey of beating the game is meant to be hard, the path from start to finish is meant to be hard. And it's not hate at the changes, maybe annoyance, it's more like this is a spicy dish, making it less spicy is not something the chef wants to do, making it less spicy but similar is a different dish that the chef has no plans to make, I don't want the chef to feel pressured to change the dish because some people don't like spicy stuff.

Ah, but you're pressuring the chef as well, to not change anything and only cater to your tastes.

"It's spicy because it's meant to be spicy, and it shouldn't change because it's meant to be spicy"
Is circular logic.

Let the chef choose, and if you don't like the new dish, don't eat it.

And in case it was not clear I am taking your point, "people who want game to be hard=pretentious", and flipping it to "people who want game to have easy mode=pretentious".

That would be true if the context was true in the inverse scenario.
Which it isn't.

You have your hard game, and nobody can take that away from you, yet you insist that adding an Easy mode will take that away from you, somehow.

And if that isn't the reasoning IN CONTEXT you're employing, I have no idea what the problem with an Easy Mode is at that point.

When did I say I'm telling the chef what they can or cannot do? When did I say that? Also you are so right the poor chef being forced to make what he wants and not being to make fastfood that can be found at any corner. Oh truly it is a tragedy.
Also I'm sorry but someone said "It's pretentious to presume that your preference is objective fact, and that everyone else who doesn't conform is "wrong"."
So your saying that the presumption that your preference (easy mode=better) is objective fact, and that everyone else who doesn't conform is "wrong", is not pretentious?
Have you ever heard of a double-standard?
Or would you be ok with me demanding that developer spend time and money to heavily alter a game to put in a hard mode? And they would indeed have to alter a game if it was not intended for a hard mode and was not designed to work with a hard mode. That the plan of the game was not to have a hard mode and to make a hard mode that was even worth playing they would have to do deep design change.