Jimquisition: Dumbing Down for the Filthy Casuals

[Elois]

And the game would be very medicore. I think people don't get that. Without the difficulty (which isn't that hard, just need to be patience), the would have nothing to stand out aside from being dark fantasy. The game on easy could be beaten in 5 hours to 7 hours tops. Hell on the current difficulty it can be beaten that fast.

This still wouldn't affect your play experience. As for it taking away from someone else's play experience in "not getting the full game", that is their decision and they can interpret how good the experience was on their own.

We're also assuming that this easy mode is going to be a severe reduction.

It would effect my play experiance, I posted why nearly right above your post.

Spoiler

An easy mode does affect me, it does alter the experience and it does matter. That is because Dark Souls isn't just a single player game, its multiplier is at the very core of the experience and its status as a niche game keeps the online community what it is. A community of like minded players who most of the time will stop when they see you, bow to you, you bow back then you fight to the death. When most video game online communities involve a bunch of swearing hyperactive 12 year olds the respect the average souls player has for the game and his opponents is an amazing and beautiful thing.

It used to be, if you got invaded in the kilin of the final flame it meant an opponent who had bested the hardest bosses, faced every challenge and was here to fight a good fight against a skilled opponent. Bowing was done, unwritten rules used to be followed, most importantly respectful skilled gameplay took place. Online over a video game, with strangers.

What does this have to do with an easy mode you ask? Well if you allow people to bypass a boss before learning how to play better they won't learn anything about how to control their characters. Dark Souls kinda has an easy mode, they are called Sunbros. Just summon one and they practically do the boss for you. Now what happens when you touch a summon sign and this warrior of sunlight throws 3 or 4 lightning bolts at the boss and takes out 90% of its health? The player learns NOTHING.

What happens when a player scoots by the harder bosses by summoning a much better player to do it for them? They end up in the kilin of the final flame with VASTLY better players and get killed in pvp because they can't play. A lot of players, instead of getting better at the game (because not getting better at it didn't stop them up till now) will resort to dirty fighting just to get a kill and feel better about themselves. We get people who try to gets hits in during the pre fight bow, we get people who resort to abusing lag to land back-stabs, people who spam fast casting aoe spells, people abusing broken combinations of equipment, but worst of all you get people with no respect for the game or the people who play it. People looking to get kills, not have fights.

Now I have no issue with as many people playing Dark souls as possible, but not at the expense of a unique community that is already on the down-slope. If a player is having trouble on a specific boss, I try my hardest to educate them. I show them the fight strategies on the wiki, I suggest optimal equipment setups, I inform them how all the stats work and why they are important, I try my damnedest to teach weaker players to fish instead of doing the fishing for them, or making the fishing easier. You know what I'm saying?

I would really hate to see the online community stagnate any more than it has.

Among other worries. Why can't a niche title stay a niche title? If people want a game for the story not the gameplay, why not play something that caters to that instead of trying to make niche games appeal to you?

 

[theultimateend]

I would really hate to see the online community stagnate any more than it has.

Among other worries. Why can't a niche title stay a niche title? If people want a game for the story not the gameplay, why not play something that caters to that instead of trying to make niche games appeal to you?

...or you could disable the online for easy characters.

Just like achievements are disabled in games when you use cheats.

This isn't rocket science, and the precious "gem" that is this game wouldn't be "tainted".

PS. I've played both games a bit, I cared none at all for the online aspect. So losing that for "easy" wouldn't have bothered me, I imagine most folks like myself that just found it passingly interesting would not mind losing that either.

 

[MisterShine]

.. I really don't care about what difficulty you play on when it comes to most games, but Dark Souls is an exception, because the difficulty is the whole point of the matter..

I disagree. I've beaten Dark Souls several times now, and I think its a beautiful game with great art and atmosphere, and I think everyone who wants to experience it themselves should get the chance. Don't sell the game short my friend.

Why does EVERY game need to cater to this audience, or indeed to ANY particular audience?

And why shouldn't it include an easy mode? Because you don't think anyone could possibly appreciate the game in a different way than you do? Yeah, lets not throw around the 'absolutist' title.

Spoiler: ENB's video on Dark Souls Difficulty

For anyone who is willing to put aside their prejudices long enough to be informed about this topic:

I've watch that video, and in fact I've been a fan of ENB's work since before the game even came to America (he's what got me to buy the game in the first place)... and I have to say, both of you are completely wrong. Yeah, You, Me and ENB (and many other Dark Souls players) derive our enjoyment of the game from its difficulty and harshness. But that doesn't mean other people can't enjoy it in different ways, and that has no effect on how we play the game.

When I purchased the Prepare to Die edition several months back, I had already beaten the crap out of the PS3 version last year, but I also purchased a copy for a friend since he had seen me play it. However, try as he might, he just could not kill one of the earlier bosses. He tried and tried, but couldn't do it. He stopped playing for a week but then asked me if I knew any cheats, so I found him a trainer for the game and he played through like that. After a few nights with an invincibility hack he'd beaten the game, and he absolutely loved it. He gushed about the art direction and sound, and all the incredibly design boss fights and locales. It's a great game without the difficulty too. Now, would you and I and ENB (and others..) say he was missing a critical part of the game? Maybe so. But that doesn't matter, he enjoyed the game immensely in a different way.

Now, the only argument I have ever heard on this issue that holds even a drop of water with me is the "This is what the designers intended". For me, that's the trump card. If the designers feel the only way to experience their work is the one difficulty setting, well, that's their decision and I would stand by that. However, if for Dark Souls 2, they make an "easy" mode they feel is an acceptable addition new players or those who want a different kind of experience, I'm totally fine with that too. I don't think it would ruin my souls experience at all, or anyone else's for that matter. And if that just doesn't make any sense to you... well, I don't know what the hell is going on in your head.

 

[Sexual Harassment Panda]

I apparently missed this story entirely.

I have a little trouble believing that there will definitely be no possible knock-on effect of the series now being designed with casual or easy modes now a part of the consideration. The best stuff that gets made in creative mediums is developed with focus. You try to be all things to all people, and you're going to make compromises.

Dark Souls was awesome because it was so focused and uncompromising. I'm not saying this will end up being a problem, but I'm not convinced that it won't bite us on the ass a little further down the line.

The incinuation that it's only a problem because people don't want the series to gain popularity strikes me as childish, though I do appreciate that it's really convenient and easy to be able to assign people their motivations and beliefs before telling them why they're wrong.

 

[Mortamus]

It would effect my play experiance, I posted why nearly right above your post.

Spoiler

An easy mode does affect me, it does alter the experience and it does matter. That is because Dark Souls isn't just a single player game, its multiplier is at the very core of the experience and its status as a niche game keeps the online community what it is. A community of like minded players who most of the time will stop when they see you, bow to you, you bow back then you fight to the death. When most video game online communities involve a bunch of swearing hyperactive 12 year olds the respect the average souls player has for the game and his opponents is an amazing and beautiful thing.

It used to be, if you got invaded in the kilin of the final flame it meant an opponent who had bested the hardest bosses, faced every challenge and was here to fight a good fight against a skilled opponent. Bowing was done, unwritten rules used to be followed, most importantly respectful skilled gameplay took place. Online over a video game, with strangers.

What does this have to do with an easy mode you ask? Well if you allow people to bypass a boss before learning how to play better they won't learn anything about how to control their characters. Dark Souls kinda has an easy mode, they are called Sunbros. Just summon one and they practically do the boss for you. Now what happens when you touch a summon sign and this warrior of sunlight throws 3 or 4 lightning bolts at the boss and takes out 90% of its health? The player learns NOTHING.

What happens when a player scoots by the harder bosses by summoning a much better player to do it for them? They end up in the kilin of the final flame with VASTLY better players and get killed in pvp because they can't play. A lot of players, instead of getting better at the game (because not getting better at it didn't stop them up till now) will resort to dirty fighting just to get a kill and feel better about themselves. We get people who try to gets hits in during the pre fight bow, we get people who resort to abusing lag to land back-stabs, people who spam fast casting aoe spells, people abusing broken combinations of equipment, but worst of all you get people with no respect for the game or the people who play it. People looking to get kills, not have fights.

Now I have no issue with as many people playing Dark souls as possible, but not at the expense of a unique community that is already on the down-slope. If a player is having trouble on a specific boss, I try my hardest to educate them. I show them the fight strategies on the wiki, I suggest optimal equipment setups, I inform them how all the stats work and why they are important, I try my damnedest to teach weaker players to fish instead of doing the fishing for them, or making the fishing easier. You know what I'm saying?

I would really hate to see the online community stagnate any more than it has.

Among other worries. Why can't a niche title stay a niche title? If people want a game for the story not the gameplay, why not play something that caters to that instead of trying to make niche games appeal to you?

So you're worried that a broader audience will harm the community, and bring in the kind of player that depends on others to do the work for them?

 

[Elois]

So you're worried that a broader audience will harm the community, and bring in the kind of player that depends on others to do the work for them?

Yes, basically. The difference in the community from Demons Souls to dark souls is basically because Dark Souls got way more advertising and brought in a broader playerbase. Along with the aforementioned fat that you can summon people to help you much more easily.

I want more people playing, don't get me wrong. I just want more people to develop the skills they need to play against people in the later parts of the game. Its no fun for anyone involved if you get people who (by no fault of their own) never learned to play in endgame pvp.

It breeds bad habits into players who should have learned essential skills.

I would really hate to see the online community stagnate any more than it has.

Among other worries. Why can't a niche title stay a niche title? If people want a game for the story not the gameplay, why not play something that caters to that instead of trying to make niche games appeal to you?

...or you could disable the online for easy characters.

Just like achievements are disabled in games when you use cheats.

This isn't rocket science, and the precious "gem" that is this game wouldn't be "tainted".

PS. I've played both games a bit, I cared none at all for the online aspect. So losing that for "easy" wouldn't have bothered me, I imagine most folks like myself that just found it passingly interesting would not mind losing that either.

If online mode was turned off I could see that working. People who enjoy the harsh game and the online aspects keep their game and people who don't can play for other reasons.

I really don't have an issue if they decided to do it like that.

Being able to invite people from your friends list into your world directly in the next game could solve most if not all of the multiplayer community issues as well, time will tell I guess.

 

[Lunar Templar]

snip

PREACH IT!!

I mean I don't get why adding an 'easy' mode, to a game is an issue, if there's an easy, there's a hard right? And if there's a hard mode, you and your "1337" skillz are free to frolic and play with the big nasty things.

But the 'elitism' has always been, and very likely will always be a problem in the gaming community which is sad really.

 

[Aardvaarkman]

Next week in "Problems that are only Problems to a Very Small Minority of Privileged People", Jim addresses problems that are only problems to a very small minority of privileged people.

 

[Mortamus]

So if I pay for the game at the same price you did, but I'm not able to make the same investment that you did in the content in terms of knowledge, then I shouldn't have access to all the content that I paid for?

In the case of Dark Souls specifically, yes. Gaining that knowledge base bit by bit quite literally IS the game in Dark Souls. Not everyone is going to enjoy every game. That is just a simple fact. The idea that every developer should make their games with the intention that everyone should enjoy the finished product is wrong, and isn't even if it was universally adopted isn't going to change that.

How is that any different than paying for a difficult, challenging book on philosophy? Not everyone is going to have the previous knowledge base required to understand the book and the ideas presented. Not everyone is going to be able to understand the concepts presented in the book. They will be missing out on the content of the books, the ideas presented in it, just like gamers who don't want to obtain the knowledge base required to complete Dark Souls will be.

I am not against modal difficulty in games. I am not against easy games in general. I am not saying every game needs to be crazy hard. I'm saying it depends on a case by case basis. What I am against is the absolutism presented in the video. To me it's like akin to demanding that every game include both first and third person modes, regardless of how the rest of the game is designed. Some games should only have 1st person modes. Some games should only have 3rd person modes. Some games should offer both. It depends entirely on how the game is designed.

I would agree with you...except for three things that really poke holes in your argument.

You say that gaining the knowledge is quite literally the game. From what I understand, that knowledge is gained through trial and error if you don't already have it, which still does not take away from the play experience.

You compared this by saying it's similar to a challenging philosophy book...except that one is designed to educate or enlighten, and the other is designed to be entertainment, and I don't feel that it's fair to say that one should be wholly invested in a product to get the full entertainment value it can provide. Some people do not have that much time to a commit to a game and should not be punished in order to experience it all. Especially with the number of new titles that are released these days. Yes, Dark Souls is meant to be a time invested and challenging game, and that's fine. However, that doesn't make a simpler version of it for those whom are unable to invest a bad thing for it. This comparison is rather weak in my honest opinion.

As well, it's not our place to deside whether or not a game should not have the option to play it in a different mode. If someone else gets a different experience than you, it does not make it a bad one. I personally always played Elder Scrolls in 1st person, but thoroughly enjoyed playing in 3rd person in Skyrim. The option had always been there, but it didn't work as well until this instalment, and I loved it for it. Did this harm the gameplay in the first person perspective? Not at all. Just like an easy mode of Dark Souls will not affect someone not looking to invest as much in it, but still would like a good experience. Nor will it affect those like us who want to play it as it was meant to be played.

 

[TwiZtah]

Easy modes are not the problem. The problem is that games are now designed for inept players, making the experienced players experience of the game extremely easy.

Far Cry 3 was ridiculously easy at Hard, because it was catered towards the casuals.

I'm sorry, give me a moment to recover from my spitting coffee all over my desk.

Ahem.

I played through FarCry 3 on Adventurer. It was *not* easy. The AI is nearly prescient, and the only way to survive is to play a constant game of duck-and-cover. After covering the north islands, LMGs become absolutely necessary as Heavies start to show up. Bringing anything else to a gunfight guarantees your death.

I've been playing games for about 25 years. I don't think I count as a "casual". I'm not particularly skilled, but assuming Hard is catered towards "casuals" is only proving the existence of the problem Sterling mentions in the video.

The AI is to say the least, stupid as a pile of rocks. They are easily exploited.

But my point still stands with many contemporary games, they design the games to be somewhat challenging for casuals/controllers, which makes them stupidly easy for veteran players.

 

[Hyperone]

Here is my problem, games as a whole are getting easier. I am going back and playing old NES and SNES games and finding them brutal to all but the most damning of current gen games. To liken it to your book analogy, if you buy a book you can't understand, does that mean the writer needs to include footnotes explaining everything at kindergarten level for you? No, it's your fault for buying a book you couldn't read. Don't get me wrong, there have been a few games and a few modes I myself can't beat. Many J-RPG's on the hardest setting are nothing short of absolutely unfair and ridiculous (I am looking at you Resonance of Fate and Infinite Undiscovery), but that doesn't mean I sit and ask for an easy version or for the whole game to come down because I simply am not as skilled as those elite players who can beat those modes.

 

[Random Argument Man]

Really now Jim?
This is getting ridiculous even for you.
Most recent videos have been nothing but the same argument about varying things over and over again and its getting REALLY old.
Could you just please put some effort into a future video that isnt filled with your rambling about the same kind of bullshit argument i hear on a daily basis:
*Oh, it doesnt affect you, so why do you care?
*Oh, you already have access to what you want without being interfered by something else, so why do you care?
*Oh, this thing may or may not have a negative impact on the gaming community, but lets for argument sake say it doesnt, then why would you care?

I mean fucking hell Jim, youre a broken record by now.

Have you ever considered the other side of the matter that the controversies are broken records?

-WAH I'M PISSED FOR SOMETHING UNRELATED.
-WAH I'M PISSED BECAUSE OF THIS
-WAH IT WILL RUIN EVERYTHING!!!

But seriously, the Internet gaming controversies are pretty much some of the biggest whinefest for small reasons that exists... Jim responds to controversies or stupid decisions. If you've been on the Internet for a long while, you'll know that the former comes often.

 

[Canadish]

Maybe if I include enough "buzzwords" and use enough "quotation marks" people will "listen" to what I have to say...

Come on man, this ain't Reddit/Tumblr.

Anyway, in relation to the original video;

I can see what Jim is saying and where he's coming from, but he's over-simplifying the issue and ignoring (or not understanding) the other factors that play into something like this. Difficulty is a massive job for a dev team to measure correctly and takes time and resources away from other areas. Some games can just change the numbers under the hood, but the Souls series difficultly often comes from the environment or the attack patterns of the enemy. Many of the fights in the game rely on the devastating power of the enemies for them to work as intended.
If the developers go in with easy mode in mind, it's going to encourage them to try make their lives easier later my making everything adjustable by the numbers like every other RPG, and then it's not Souls anymore.
And aside from that, it's at the very...er...soul....of the game. It's part of the experience. A casual player might get the content, sure, but it won't be much fun for them.

It's really not a matter of elitism for most Souls fans, those guys just seem the loudest because people focus on negative. The truth is, there isn't anything to be elitist about with Dark Souls, other then the fact it's a very well designed action-RPG.
The truth is, Dark Souls really just isn't that hard, it just requires the right mindset going into it.
Image related, slightly large.

Spoiler

It's not game to relax to, it's a game to sit up and get focused and tense at. Not all games need to be brain-candy, if you want that you've already got a HUGE selection out there.
I admit, I find Skyrim more difficult then bloody Dark Souls. I just like how the Souls titles make take all my actions into serious consideration, and I think most "casuals" could/would as well. In my experience, once someone gets the feel of it, they carry right on and end up loving it.

The game's big flaw is the utterly shite tutorial and the fact it doesn't explain what any of the stats do in any detail. It seems to me this is where all the difficultly comes from.
That, or because people keep going to the cemetery and trying to fight the skeletons until the give up, rather then step back and think about trying another direction. But even that isn't their fault, they've just been trained by modern games to follow the most obvious route and follow the corridors.

So, in my books, 0 votes for an easy mode, 1 point to a better tutorial. That is how you make something accessible, you don't assume the worst in your customers and dumb it down.

 

[mjc0961]

Another one was Mass Effect 3. OMGZ HOW DARE IT HAVE A NARRATIVE MODE!!! Yet nobody could explained to me why I should be as butthurt as they were. I was content to just ignore it and play on Hard/Insanity/whatever. Just because it's in the game doesn't mean you have to use it guys. And what's with nonsense like this:

My issue with the dark souls easy mode is what is the point in even playing it. It would be like playing LA noire with all the interrogations taken out.

Excuse me, but who the hell are you to dictate how other people enjoy their entertainment? Who the hell are ANY of you people to dictate how other people enjoy their entertainment? I'm seeing a lot of snobby, stuck-up comments like the one I quoted all over this thread, and my message to these people... would get me modded, so I won't actually say it, but the polite version is stop it. Other people enjoying a game in a different way than you did doesn't change how much you enjoy the game with your "hardcorez" settings. For fuck's sake, get over yourselves. You all thoroughly disgust me.

Easy modes are not the problem. The problem is that games are now designed for inept players, making the experienced players experience of the game extremely easy.

Far Cry 3 was ridiculously easy at Hard, because it was catered towards the casuals.

No, Far Cry 3 was ridiculously easy at Hard because the developers fucked up. Easy mode is there to cater to the casuals, Hard mode is supposed to be hard. If Hard mode isn't hard, that's not the fault of Easy mode or casuals, it's the fault of developers who did a shitty job of making their Hard mode actually hard.

It's not that games shouldn't have an easy mode, it's that "there being an easy mode won't effect your experience/normal mode" is not a guarantee. If easy mode is tacked on as an afterthought, maybe it won't. If it's designed for easy mode and scaled up for harder modes, then it will, because increasing difficulty should be more than just changing a few variables to a higher number.

And once again, those instances are the fault of the developer, not the casuals. They made the game incorrectly and THEY should be the ones getting bashed by teh hardcorez gamerz, not the casuals.

[hr]

Anyway, 5 episodes next week? Thank god for you indeed, Jim! I look forward to seeing what 4 games are covered on Monday through Thursday before The Walking Dead's Friday episode.

 

[Elois]

Quite a few people may not care much for the online aspect and just want an easy trip to the lore and story and I can sorta get behind that.

It must be kept in mind that the souls series is not just a hardcore action rpg for hardcore fans, its a hardcore action rpg that hardcore fans can play together against other hardcore fans. Its a niche game that lets niche fans play together and that nearly never happens anymore.

The games difficulty is integral to the social aspect of it. A hugely important factor that has bonded its players together. I've meet so many people in this game and had so many experiences because of it.

I've invaded and been invaded by a lot of players who sent me a message congratulating me for the victory, telling me it was a good fight when I lost, asking me where one of my weapons or hard to get spells they saw me use could be found. I was once invaded and killed feet away from a boss gate, asked that same player for assistance on said boss and received it. I've made friends this way. I've made friends on an online game after brutally getting killed by these people or killing them in their worlds.

This is totally unlike the random people you meet on Xbox live's other multiplayer games. Good people play souls games, I don't want to see that become like call of duty's multiplayer. Filled with hyperactive swearing kids.

If easy mode turned off the multiplayer this would sort of make the above a moot point, but I still would rather people just got better so more people could hang out at the top.

 

[DioWallachia]

Maybe is THIS why people dont want Dark Souls to have easy mode?

 

[BreakfastMan]

My issue with the dark souls easy mode is what is the point in even playing it. It would be like playing LA noire with all the interrogations taken out.

Who are you to say "what's the point" for other people?

I think it's safe to say that the point of a game with the tagline "prepare to die" is to be hard. Just my two cents.

So, people can't enjoy the game for reasons other than it's difficulty?

OT:
I agree with jim, and have argued as such on these forums before. About all I have to say about that...

 

[mjc0961]

See, this is why I WASN'T one of the guys who got up in arms about an easy mode in Mega Man 10. Mega Man is fucking hard, and I don't want to risk strangling myself in frustration when there's an easier option. I mean, there are many different levels a game can be played. Like some people try playing the original Zelda without using the sword. Who's to say we can't do something similar with modern games; having the option of both easier to play games for everyone and harder to play games for experts wanting to test their mettle.

Fucking casuals grabbing the sword! There shouldn't even BE a sword in Zelda, god damn casuals dumbed the game down!

More like god damn "hardcorez" gamers forgetting that they CAN do things like this. Another example, OH NOEZ LITTLEBIGPLANET ADDED INFINITE RESPAWN CHECKPOINTS, DUMBED DOWN DUMBED DOWN!!!! Hey idiots, you do know you can always quit back to the pod and restart the entire level from the start if you still WANT that challenge in your game, right? Nobody is forcing you to respawn infinitely, you're choosing to and then bitching about something YOU chose to do.

As much as I hated hearing about Nuzlocke runs in Pokemon for a while when it became popular, at least the Pokemon community was intelligent enough to find more challenge in their game since that's what they wanted. And that's supposed to be a "kiddie" game according to teh hardcorez. I guess the kiddies are smarter than you, hardcorez gamers! What are you going to do about it? ... ***** some more? K.