Jimquisition: Dumbing Down for the Filthy Casuals

[BreakfastMan]

I have seen the future of reality television and it is hosted by mutant carrot men!

OT: Personally when i play games i usually play them on easy, because i like to play games to hear the story and have some fun interaction along the way, but i must say that my favorite games are the ones which don't give you a choice of difficulty like TF2 or KOTOR.

KOTOR actually does. If you go into the options menu, you can adjust combat difficulty. By default it is set to medium, but it also has easy and hard modes as well.

 

[Mortrialus]

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Who are you to say "what's the point" for other people?

For Dark Souls specifically; the stated goals the developer had when creating the game.

>implying that people care that you place that much value you in the game

>implying that some guy on the internet should dictate who values what in the game

>implying that people will give a damn


and i believe i have won

I'm pretty sure Hideki Miyazaki and the rest of the team behind Dark Souls aren't "some random guy on the internet."

HM:I personally want my games to be described as satisfying rather than difficult. As a matter of fact, I am aiming at giving players sense of accomplishment in the use of difficulty.

http://metro.co.uk/2012/08/29/dark-souls-interview-hard-master-556118/

Miyazaki: Advice, huh? *laughs* Well, it is a difficult game. We aren?t apologizing for that. You?re going to die often. But keep at it! The level of accomplishment and the level of satisfaction that you?ll get from completing a particularly daunting challenge is going to be that much greater. It?s something the PS3 crowd has already been through, so hopefully the 360 players will find similar enjoyment in the challenge. Just don?t throw your controller too much! Those things get expensive. *laughs* Don?t give up and aim for that satisfaction in your victory!

http://www.g4tv.com/thefeed/blog/post/716777/dark-souls-an-interview-with-hidetaka-miyazaki/

We're talking authorial intent here. This isn't just my opinion.

 

[Rooster Cogburn]

Why does EVERY game need to cater to this audience, or indeed to ANY particular audience?

And why shouldn't it include an easy mode?

If you're not going to read my posts then don't quote me.

Because you don't think anyone could possibly appreciate the game in a different way than you do?

That does not follow logically from anything that I said. It's also a silly argument. You might as well say "I like elephants so Dark Souls should have a trunk".

Yeah, lets not throw around the 'absolutist' title.

Mr. Sterling's attitude on this topic is the very definition of absolutist. "I know everything about how every game should be, I have nothing new to learn, I am not willing to consider an alternative view. There is an incredibly specific mindset and feature set that EVERY game should have, and if you disagree you're a ****. Meah." You seem to be trying to cram having any opinion about how a particular game should be into the definition of "absolutist" so you can throw it back at me, but it's not working.

I've watch that video, and in fact I've been a fan of ENB's work since before the game even came to America (he's what got me to buy the game in the first place)... and I have to say, both of you are completely wrong. Yeah, You, Me and ENB (and many other Dark Souls players) derive our enjoyment of the game from its difficulty and harshness. But that doesn't mean other people can't enjoy it in different ways,

People like ponies, let's turn Dark Souls into a pony

and that has no effect on how we play the game.

That is factually incorrect. I'm sure what you mean is it shouldn't effect how we play, and I would probably agree with you in any other case.

When I purchased the Prepare to Die edition several months back, I had already beaten the crap out of the PS3 version last year, but I also purchased a copy for a friend since he had seen me play it. However, try as he might, he just could not kill one of the earlier bosses. He tried and tried, but couldn't do it. He stopped playing for a week but then asked me if I knew any cheats, so I found him a trainer for the game and he played through like that. After a few nights with an invincibility hack he'd beaten the game, and he absolutely loved it. He gushed about the art direction and sound, and all the incredibly design boss fights and locales. It's a great game without the difficulty too. Now, would you and I and ENB (and others..) say he was missing a critical part of the game? Maybe so. But that doesn't matter, he enjoyed the game immensely in a different way.

Good for him, I don't begrudge him that. But he didn't play a game so much as listen to the soundtrack and look at the art book. He doesn't need an easy mode to accomplish that, as you have demonstrated.

Now, the only argument I have ever heard on this issue that holds even a drop of water with me is the "This is what the designers intended". For me, that's the trump card. If the designers feel the only way to experience their work is the one difficulty setting, well, that's their decision and I would stand by that.

I don't understand this viewpoint at all. Surely its merit as a work of art is one million times more important then the developer's intentions for its merit as a work of art?! Maybe I'm taking you too literally, here. But it's merit that counts, and that is what Dark Souls has in spades. It's a work of art with a message and themes and goals. People who see it as a mere product will never understand why those who are passionate about it hold certain opinions. I don't really care about it being "their decision" except to the extent it brings me a greater work of art. I think Dark Souls should not have easy mode because it undermines the game's artistic messages and themes, among other things.

What you're doing is like saying Young Frankenstein should be colorized because people like color, and color is an obvious added value and utility. What you are ignoring is the artistic statement you can make by not having color, and the themes and goals that are supported and reaffirmed by that choice. The very fact of NOT having color is an artistic statement. The very fact of NOT having an easy mode is an artistic statement, in addition to the more practical reasons for excluding it.

Jim Sterling, on the other hand, has been nothing short of AGGRESSIVE in demolishing the concept of games as art and judging them as products with a task to perform only. This is another perfect example. I don't think he realizes he is having that effect, however. He thinks he wants to view games as art but, like Yahtzee, he shrinks when actually given the chance to examine a game as if it were art. He just hasn't thought it completely through. Fill a game full of obnoxious, pretensions bullshit that resembles artsy things on a superficial level and they defend it to the death. Give them the real McCoy and they don't know what they're even looking at.

However, if for Dark Souls 2, they make an "easy" mode they feel is an acceptable addition new players or those who want a different kind of experience, I'm totally fine with that too. I don't think it would ruin my souls experience at all, or anyone else's for that matter. And if that just doesn't make any sense to you... well, I don't know what the hell is going on in your head.

You are persistent in this straw man that I don't want easy mode because of how it effects OTHER people. You have ignored everything I have said about how it effects ME. We cannot have a meaningful discussion about this if you are unwilling to even hear my side. Obviously having another game that is just like all their other games would be wonderful for people who want an easy mode, but in this case I think it is only reasonable to keep the Dark Souls experience intact for the people who enjoy it as it is and can't get the same experience anywhere else.

But I don't think this kind of game can survive in the long run. I will constantly be anticipating its ruin. Anything that is even slightly off the beaten path is hunted down and executed, as you can plainly see happening right here.

How the fuck am I the bad guy in this? Easy mode lovers can play anything in the world. I wish they would play Dark Souls too, but if they can't, won't they at least leave it alone for my enjoyment? How come they get everything and I get nothing? That is not fair.

Dark Souls fans: hated, feared, maligned, misunderstood.

 

[burningdragoon]

Guys guys guys, can we please move the easy mode discussion away from "yes or no" and onto "how to implement it in ways other than the distinct, modal settings"? The worst thing to do for this subject is to give the impression that having Easy/Normal/Hard settings is the only way to do it. Because it's not.

 

[stef1987]

It's not that games shouldn't have an easy mode, it's that "there being an easy mode won't effect your experience/normal mode" is not a guarantee. If easy mode is tacked on as an afterthought, maybe it won't. If it's designed for easy mode and scaled up for harder modes, then it will, because increasing difficulty should be more than just changing a few variables to a higher number.

Exactly.

Look, I don't mind that any game has an easy mode, or a super easy mode,
as long as the mode I choose is a proper developed mode.
So not like Ratchet&Clank Deadlocked, which was the only game of the franchise that had a hard mode that was actually hard. But, unfortunately, it was a badly designed hard mode, which meant that it wasn't so much hard, but rather boring, since the AI was so bad, and you never really had to aim your weapons, so it just meant you had to be slow and go back to get ammo, but it didn't took any more skill, it just took more time.

Also, another example of bad difficulty tweaking (or whatever it's called):
Jak2 was a hell of a good game, it had a nice difficulty, definately not that hard, but not easy either.
But people complained that it was too hard.
So they designed something special for Jak3; the missions would get easier every time you failed one.
The problem with this is they (and everyone else it seems) mistakenly think that everyone likes a game to be the same kind of challenging.
So ideally; pro gamers play a difficult mode, and noobs play easy, and they are both equally good at what they're playing.
But that's not true, some people like a game to be very challenging, others not at all.
(notice I obviously mean something different with challenging than difficult)
A good difficulty for me is when I fail almost each mission at least once, and once in a while (a boss fight or so) I have to try dozens of times before I can complete the mission, and that's how I like it.
But I know others that consider a game to be too difficult one they fail a single mission once.

That's why I find it terrible when games scale the challenge (or the difficulty mode) based on how you're dooing, they assume you want to succeed on the first try. (but I don't, I LIKE TO FAIL FIRST)

Unfortunately for me, the games I play rarely offer a difficulty that I like.
I'm talking about Final Fantasy, Ratchet&Clank, Jak&Daxter, Okami, Kingdom Hearts, ...
take Kingdom Hearts for example, they have an easy, normal and hard mode,
great! unfortunately the hard mode is still a cake walk.

anyway, this has turned into a rant instead of a real comment.
so I'm gonna stop here.

 

[Undeadpool]

I'm a big fan of this concept when it comes to RPGs because then people seem to equate "challenge" with "clunkiness." Never was this more apparent than with Dragon Age: Origins or Mass Effect 2. Yes, I remember the heady days when DA: O was being called "dumbed down Baldur's Gate" by people who obviously hadn't played Baldur's Gate in a decade...

Wait, an easy mode in Dark Souls sounds rather... dull. Seriously, take away the challenge and the whole point of the game is gone making it boring. I can see the casual user using easy mode and not enjoying the game.

Simply, some games just aren't for everyone. Grim and difficult to cute and easy, different markets. Are we supposed to release a funny version of The Road or a gritty version of Cars so everyone can join in? Not all games are the same, an easy mode in Mario or Donkey Kong seems to make more sense, also mechanically correct than one in Dark Souls.

Anyone is allowed to get involved and enjoy, it has nothing to do with inclusiveness and this argument seems to be used in the majority of industry related "issues" these days.

They do release those. They're called "edited for TV versions." And much like with that, I fail to see how the existence of a completely optional setting hinders your enjoyment in the slightest. It's like complaining that PC games still include 640x480 settings despite you owning a bleeding-edge graphics machine.

 

[punipunipyo]

I DO like the Easy mode in games... because I have friends who just can't finish the damn games I intro to them (SUX at Skill), with Easy mode... they can actually finish them and we can talk about them( and I can tell how the hard mode is) Take DmC3 as example, all we had to do is show our Super Dante around to prove that we finished "Dante must Die" mode, and we have the privilege to play using UNLIMITED POWER!~ it's a good balance, where all can finish the game, but there are extra contend (that one CAN LIVE WITH OUT) for the completionists, to OP the already mastered game!~ games SHOULD have that options good EP man~

 

[FriedRicer]

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OMG! I am literally about to rip out my hair, the ignorance in this thread is just amazing. Dark Souls isn't hard because the enemies have too high health or do too much damage, it's not because you do too little damage nor is it difficult because of too low health.

It's difficult because of LEVEL FUCKING DESIGN. In Dark Souls the levels are crafted to be difficult, but possible, in easy mode they would have to change this to be, not difficult and possible. In Dark Souls there are parts where even with more health and damage, it would still be brutually difficult because it has careful placing of enemies spots, traps, and overall just where things are placed.

They would have to redesign all enemies and levels to be easy enough for a casual player to do it. Trying to then apply that to the normal mode it would be way to easy. What allows the quality of the levels to be as good as they're is that they don't have to worry about designing it for multiple difficulties. Games with multiple difficulties usually don't have levels that are built for any specific difficulty but built for ALL difficulties.

That's what makes Dark Soul's unique, it's built from the ground up to be hard, so it's all possible, and difficult at the same time. Enemies don't have a lot of health (some do, but mostly optional enemies), but are placed in the right spots to make it difficult.

The Souls series rewards CAREFUL PLAY and not Reckless play. Apparently people don't understand this and think it's all about Health and Damage when it's not. Bosses usually don't even have that much health, but they all have staredgy's on how to easily beat them.

So yes, Easy Mode would dumb it down by making the levels having to account for both difficulties. Same for bosses and enemies.

This is why fans of the Dark Souls series don't want multiple difficulties because it WOULD suffer.

Thanks for beating me to the punch.
Some people seem to mix games that are difficult owing to statistics and games that are hard owing to tactics.
No amount of health will help you beat the bed of chaos.
The game practically begs to be beaten if one looks at the item placement in the boss areas.
To anyone who thinks the game tells you nothing about its mechanics...It does."select" tells you what each stat means.That's what I did when I "prepared to die".
If people played the game the way the developer developed it,no one would ask for an "easy" mode.
They would see that the game is so flexible that nearly every form of difficulty can be made.
HOW DO PEOPLE THINK THE FANS CREATE BUILDS/"RUNS"?

If you wanna play a different way then intended(and be a beginner)....you get the motto.

 

[Smeggs]

Dark Souls main selling point was its difficulty. Its tagline was "PREPARE TO DIE" for chrissake. Putting in an Easy mode is the exact opposite of all of the marketing done for the game and undermines the series. I understand where Jim is coming from, and I agree it is silly to complain about, but when the game is marketed as being crotch-kickingly difficult, it becomes a nagging little reminder when oldfag gamers hear about companies pandering to newfag gamers that people want things handed to them, things which beforehand had to be worked toward and earned.

Things which the oldfags worked for and earned, and the newfags just expect to be spoon-fed to them.

Really, it's the fact that beating a Souls game actually meant something. You went through all of the cheap shit, all of the tough battles, all of the respawns and losing all of those Souls and Humanity and came out over Gwyn in the end, only to then have a bunch of people come in and blast right past you on Hand-Holding difficulty. It'd be like if you worked for years to afford a mildly acceptable car while the spoiled rich kid down the street is bitching that his new corvette that Daddy bought him isn't the right color.

So of course they'd be a bit mad. A few with some rage issues. But it's not hard to understand.
"Yeah, so I finally managed to kill Manus, he was-"
"DARK SOULS, BREH? Like totes, I totally beat it in, like, a day, chyah, too easy, I'mma go back to CoD."

Has anyone added an easy mode to Ninja Gaidden yet? Because if I remember right, just Acolyte difficulty was practically every other Hack N' Slash's Hard Mode. Would people like all commands to be mapped to one button that just causes all enemies to spontaneously explode? No, because NG is supposed to be difficult. I haven't played the third one, someone told me that one was easy as hell.

 

[Korten12]

Thanks for beating me to the punch.
Some people seem to mix games that are difficult owing to statistics and games that are hard owing to tactics.
No amount of health will help you beat the bed of chaos.
The game practically begs to be beaten if one looks at the item placement in the boss areas.
To anyone who thinks the game tells you nothing about its mechanics...It does."select" tells you what each stat means.That's what I did when I "prepared to die".
If people played the game the way the developer developed it,no one would ask for an "easy" mode.
They would see that the game is so flexible that nearly every form of difficulty can be made.
HOW DO PEOPLE THINK THE FANS CREATE BUILDS/"RUNS"?

If you wanna play a different way then intended(and be a beginner)....you get the motto.

And thank you for also understanding. God, I feel like aside from a few others I was one of the few sane people who actually get why no easy mode is a good thing.

 

[Edl01]

I'm glad you made this, also I must mention I hate it when they make something that was overcomplicated in a game more simple and practicle to improve gameplay in the sequel and people called it dumbing down, it isn't, it is making the game more fun and less of a chore to play through.

 

[Arakasi]

I just want to be able to get somewhere in the fucking game I payed good money for.
I currently find it as inaccessable and boring as those old arcade games where you simply encounter more and more difficult foes.
I want to see the landscapes, the aesthetics, the amazing bosses, I could not give a damn about challenge in this type of game, it is not my forte.

In short, shut the fuck up you whining bitches, I own the game, I want to see what it has, and if I can do that with an easy mode, I'll all for it.

 

[Casual Shinji]

Thanks for beating me to the punch.
Some people seem to mix games that are difficult owing to statistics and games that are hard owing to tactics.
No amount of health will help you beat the bed of chaos.
The game practically begs to be beaten if one looks at the item placement in the boss areas.
To anyone who thinks the game tells you nothing about its mechanics...It does."select" tells you what each stat means.That's what I did when I "prepared to die".
If people played the game the way the developer developed it,no one would ask for an "easy" mode.
They would see that the game is so flexible that nearly every form of difficulty can be made.
HOW DO PEOPLE THINK THE FANS CREATE BUILDS/"RUNS"?

If you wanna play a different way then intended(and be a beginner)....you get the motto.

And thank you for also understanding. God, I feel like aside from a few others I was one of the few sane people who actually get why no easy mode is a good thing.

It's like having button or prompt in Silent Hill 2 that makes a cute puppy appear infront of the screen.

It doesn't matter if it's optional, you're going to use it if it's an option, because you don't want to scared. But the whole point of the game is having no other option but to fight through that fear, and giving you the option to not be scared completely negates that.

 

[Elois]

I just want to be able to get somewhere in the fucking game I payed good money for.
I currently find it as inaccessable and boring as those old arcade games where you simply encounter more and more difficult foes.
I want to see the landscapes, the aesthetics, the amazing bosses, I could not give a damn about challenge in this type of game, it is not my forte.

In short, shut the fuck up you whining bitches, I own the game, I want to see what it has, and if I can do that with an easy mode, I'll all for it.

Why should a game open up just because you bought it? That would be like if I wanted portal to just auto complete the puzzles for me because I don't like puzzles. But the entire point of the game is the fun puzzles so that would be silly.

If you don't like a challenging game why did you buy a game that was marketed as a challenging game? Same thing. If you don't like challenging games, buy something else.

Besides, the game isn't locking content to you if you can't beat one boss or something. Just pay attention and get better at it and you to can see the rest of it. Or heck, just go online and find a sunbro summoning sign, they are generally overpowered enough to not need the host anyway.

 

[Korten12]

I just want to be able to get somewhere in the fucking game I payed good money for.
I currently find it as inaccessable and boring as those old arcade games where you simply encounter more and more difficult foes.
I want to see the landscapes, the aesthetics, the amazing bosses, I could not give a damn about challenge in this type of game, it is not my forte.

In short, shut the fuck up you whining bitches, I own the game, I want to see what it has, and if I can do that with an easy mode, I'll all for it.

How about you realize the game is not for you? Like another poster pointed out the games marketing is "PREPARE TO DIE."

That means your going in for a beating. If they were to make an easy mode, they would have to change all of the levels (not just stats), and remove what makes Dark Souls unique. Just raising stats wouldn't make some of the traps, and levels any easier because they aren't designed to be played easy.

So don't ***** at the game for not having an easy mode, when it was MARKETED to not have one and already announced not to have one. It's like going to an art movie and complaining it doesn't have enough action and that it should change so that it has explosions so you don't get bored and can see the whole movie.

Dark Soul's is a niche, it shouldn't have to accomadate others because they aren't patience enough to beat the game and play it as intended.

 

[babinro]

I agree 100% that games should offer easy/very easy/casual modes so any level of player should be able to experience nearly all content.

But this video seemed to miss the mark in terms of what I was expecting. I had really hoped Jim was going to address the concern of simplified mechanics. Several 'elitist' gamers scorned Dragon Age 2 for this.

Do you feel streamlining mechanics to make a game more accessible is a good thing or bad?
I'm 100% in favor of getting rid of tedious systems that aren't necessary for a good game play experience.
DA2 is fine by me. Diablo 3 dropping skill tree's is also fine by me.

Others...and not a minority either, feel these 'simplifications' can ruin the games entirely.

Curious what Jim's take would be on that issue.

 

[Dethenger]

While I generally agree with the episode, I feel like Dark Souls Easy Mode was a poor example.
There's a pretty good video about it here [http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-b91BWzLigs] by EpicNameBro, who I think is a pretty big guy in the Dark Souls community. I'd really recommend watching it, it's really insightful into game design, and he's just a cool guy in general.

 

[deathzero021]

Now i agree with optional modes being OK. they don't annoy me because they don't effect my experience. i also don't mind games trying to widen the audience a little.

*snip*

To summarize my over-sized post:
i think it's a great idea to try and appeal to a larger audience BUT it should never come at the cost of losing your fanbase.

to do what you said, a video game would have to take the hard mode out
or make everything easy.

so i think your going need
ALOT of citations

because if you leave a franchise because other people can play it now
you were never a fan to begin with, unless they are literally ruining(changing in a way that you dont enjoy , or a large number of people) it, for example if DmC becomes a franchise, im out like a trout

Series or franchises, lose their fan base all the time. This happens because they aren't adding support for casual gamers, they are CHANGING support. they replace the old style of gameplay with the casual style and effectively piss off every fan.

Long running series often change gameplay, not add to it to support everyone. Take a look at Resident Evil 1, compare it to Resident Evil 6. The gameplay didn't add more to it, it was changed to fit a different demographic entirely. (in the hope to make more money, which it did.) despite sales, critics hated the game simply because of the change. Even though it may not be a worse game, it's not a game that older Resident Evil fans would enjoy.