Jimquisition: Free To Wait

Andy Shandy

Fucked if I know
Jun 7, 2010
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Damn, Jim, your best episodes are when you're angry and you were like a goddamn tidal wave of righteous fury in this one.

Nothing else to say except that you're right as usual, Jim. So bloody right. And that mic drop at the end? Glorious.
 
Jan 27, 2011
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I overwhelmingly agree with Jim here.

Locking players out so they can't play unless they pay is despicable...UNLESS it's done properly, which is next to impossible.

There are games where it's done right (Fallen London does it well), and in most of those games, the wait times are both reasonably small and the game is designed to be at its most entertaining when played in small, spaced out bursts so you don't mind not being able to play more for a while. Then you come back in a half hour or so, play some more, etc.

But the overwhelming majority of games that use free-to-wait are absolutely awful.

For example, I played Spiral Knights, a Free-to-Wait MMO for a while. At first I was massively annoyed at it because you only get 100 free energy per day (slowly over time) and it costs 10 energy to go down one floor in the dungeons. So I stopped.

Then I picked it up again and found that it wasn't that big a deal, really. When I was out of energy, I usually felt done with the game. I even let the use-energy-to-revive mechanic slide since if you played with other people they could revive you for free anyway.

THEN, I got far enough into the game that I really needed to craft stuff. And then I found out that crafting equipment requires energy. But alright, I decided to use my off days when I couldn't play to craft equipment. It was here that I started getting really really annoyed.

And then, I hit the point where it takes MORE than 100 energy to craft stuff. I asked on the forums if I literally could not progress any farther without paying and was told to use the in-game currency to buy the Paid Currency (crystal energy) via the player-run market in order to forge stuff. And of course, getting the amount of in-game currency to buy one shot (100 CE) of paid currency requires multiple (At least 6) dungeon runs, or several runs of this one boss that drop a ton of currency (I think you can guess what dungeon run is the most popular).

That did it. That was the thing that finally killed it for me. I just could not put up with it anymore.

It also doesn't help that the market for Crystal Energy is entirely player dependent, so rates fluctuate weirdly. Although the trend seems to be that CE is going higher and higher over time, which just makes the whole problem worse...

The devs DID try to mitigate this a bit by letting you "pay the tab" of other players at elevators so you could carry them with you on your energy supply, and other stuff like that, but overall...It just made me really weary of the whole thing.

If Energy wasn't required to craft shit, I'd probably still be playing Spiral Knights even WITH the limited amount of playing time per day. Because I really liked it. Once in a blue moon I'll load it up to do a run, but unless things change seriously, I don't think I can ever play it seriously again.

In the meantime, I've gotten into League of Legends, which does Free to play well. I can play as often as I want, as much as I want, and even playing only one match a day, I've gotten enough in-game money to unlock basically any character I want at the moment. I literally only bought ONE champ with real money in the past 6 months, and the rest I earned with in-game money. Now I have a decent enough champion pool that I don't really feel the need to buy more.

As for Dungeon keeper...24 hours to mine ONE GODDAMN BLOCK? What kind of !@#$wit thought that would make for a fun game?
 

bluegate

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Dec 28, 2010
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Those really are the worst kind of games out there, but the sad thing is; a lot of people play that kind of shit.

For the life of me, I can't understand how people can become addicted to those kind of games...
 

sageoftruth

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irishda said:
Holy shit, these free games are making me not play them. That's just the WORST! When you don't spend money to play a game that's really not all that immersive, and you don't get to play it all the time. I mean MY GOD. And then they take it to "AAA" games where they're like, "Hey, if you give us money we'll give you better stuff. You don't really need it, but it makes things go faster." As gamers, we can't be expected to THINK for ourselves or have any sort of consumer instincts or even have some fucking patience. We NEED gratification instantly! Otherwise we'd be building up an actual life skill or bettering ourselves somehow. Clearly the prominence of cheap little one off games we DON'T HAVE TO PAY A DIME FOR is the worst thing to happen to everyone. Even worse, it's infecting other media now. Did you know I have to wait a WHOLE WEEK for a new Walking Dead show? And I PAY for cable; it's not even free, like these games are.

I mean fuck's sake, Jim, it doesn't help the media perception of gamers as giant children when you're treating them as a bunch of lemmings or Family Guy's James Woods, who can't help but follow the trail of candy to wherever it leads because they have no concept of money or willpower. It's just pathetic now.
I'm just going to say, I don't think waiting 7 days to watch a 30 minute episode can be compared to waiting a day to play a game for 5 seconds (or in my case, waiting 30 days to watch 10 minutes of an abridged series). Maybe I just don't know how to appreciate that style of game. Still, you do raise the important question, where do you draw the line between customer responsibility and company responsibility? Unfortunately, I haven't yet decided on that part.
 

AznaktaX

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Dec 3, 2013
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So, I'm only a few seconds in, and for a moment I was afraid you totally lost it.

castlewise said:
Yeah, its wierd though. If these are so bad (and they are) then why do the dominate the market so badly.
Not quite sure, but I have two guesses.

1. These games have something in them that tries to make you addicted. In some cases, it succeeds.

If you have already used a sum of money in one of these fee to pay games, say f.e. Shakes & Fidget (and yes, I'm a victim), you might eventually realize "Oh, f**k, this game sucks after all. But now, I'm already so far into it, there's no turning back."

In my case, I don't give any more money to Shakes & Fidget, but I have made a few friends in it, I'm already pretty high level, so I still continue to play.

Don't know how long it will last though.

2. The casual market is big right now.

And....no offence, but new gamers these days, regardless of age, seem to be more likely to play a game that basically holds their hand.

Give it to them "for free", and it's easy to bait them in.

It's a huge chance for game companies who want to give us less and less for as much money as possible.


Btw, all you need is a concept that will look interesting to gamers.

The world doesn't have to be ready for it, and it doesn't happen only in mobile gaming.

The Kinect is an example of a non-mobile gaming concept that suckered gamers in, despite many games not functioning properly.

And it doesn't happen only in gaming.

Movies have 3D.

It's an interesting concept that yet causes huge eye strain, and in some cases it's completely unnecessary, the world is obviously not ready for it, yet movie companies keep using it, so they can charge you (I don't remember) double prize for the ticket.

But I digress.

You get my point, I hope.


P.s. Oh, I know what will break Jim.

A f2p Aliens game. :p

*sees everyone in the forum glaring at him, preparing their Load out guns*

I'm just kidding, I'm just kidding, don't shoot. XD
 

Sheo_Dagana

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Aug 12, 2009
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Good... good... let the hate flow through you, Jim!

No, seriously. Let it ride. You're absolutely right and I am always saddened every time I see one of my friends getting tricked into playing one of these 'games.' I had heard of the Simpsons game but didn't know about that Dungeon creator one.

Bravely Default actually has a mode exactly like that, except that instead of currency, you collect street passes to get more workers. So it's either social interaction or wait it out. I guess I'll be leaving my 3DS on all the time now...
 

shteev

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Oct 22, 2007
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*Are* there loads of free to play games worth playing, Jim?

I ask genuinely because I can't find any. I'd love to play some.
 

Flatfrog

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Dec 29, 2010
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I think I've worked out what the dividing line is on these Free to Wait games and I think it's that microtransactions should never be for consumables. I don't mind paying money for something that makes the game run faster *for ever*. What makes thinks like DK despicable is that they make you pay a fairly considerable amount just to get past *this bit* - and then it's done. And then you have to wait some more. That's what makes it feel like being held to ransom. But a game where I can pay to make it *better* seems perfectly fair. Paid upgrades - good. Paid consumables - bad.

Obviously for multiplayer games that's still a problem because Pay to Win is pretty despicable too, so for multiplayer there's an additional stricture that you should only be asked to pay for things that have a purely aesthetic effect - costumes, decorations etc - or that are shared between all players - new level maps, weapon drops etc.
 

Sanunes

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Mar 18, 2011
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Even though EA made this piece of garbage of a "game" I can't see it being any worse then Square Enix with their Final Fantasy price gouge or the over inflated price of their "remakes" of classic Final Fantasy games or any of the people that just make these games to treat people like a walking wallet. Personally I have never found any of the "games" that require me to wait or pay money to go faster to attract my interest at all, there might be good versions, but like anything in life people will exploit it.
 

deathbydeath

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Jun 28, 2010
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JimmyPage666 said:
I agree this video is more of a rant but it's deserved in this case. Jim has often mentioned good free to play models that work - like Loadout in this video! It's not that F2P is a bad model it's just that it's being abused. Part of his/our anger, which was mentioned towards the end of the video, is that F2P can be a great model but is being completely abused by people like EA.
No, he isn't hating on free-to-play games, he's hating on free-to-play games with time delays/free-to-wait games. Loadout is not a free-to-wait game, it's ftp with inoffensive microtransaction options. I have seen two types of successful ftw games (the aforementioned Fallen London and Eliminate Pro), and I peruse those kinds of markets far less than the "casual" gamer, let alone someone like Jim Sterling.

Laying out these sorts of blanket condemnations despite evidence to the contrary is simply bad practice, especially for someone with a voice as loud and as heard as Jim's is. I don't doubt that the examples he used in the video are deserving of the verbal thrashing they've been given, but merely saying something is wrong is useless unless you provide ways to do it right.
 

GAunderrated

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Jul 9, 2012
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I love this video jim and I am very glad you had the balls to call out the developers on being apart of this shit. I don't like the fact that people are willing to give developers a pass because the big bad EA and other publishers are "forcing" them to exploit customers. I always felt that as a cop out excuse and pathetic.

I have spent over $100 on Dota2 cosmetic items and I don't feel like I was ripped off at all. I've played over 800 hours of fun on that game and every purchase I made was completely optional. Where I did try Simpsons tapped out due to a gf who enjoyed it and I couldn't play it for longer than 20 minutes without requiring a purchase to continue the "gameplay". I never spent a dime on that game and pity those who lack the willpower or foresight to not waste money on a reverse ATM.

It's all the allure of a slot machine without the promise of a small chance of return.
 

kajinking

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Aug 12, 2009
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Warframe to me is just the best F2P model I've ever seen. I downloaded that game on a whim since it looked decent back in July and figured I'd play it a while, get bored, and go off to something else like I always do. 6 Months and 306 hours of gameplay later I've gladly paid around $30 for some cosmetic stuff but the fact of the matter is that I could have not spent a single cent and still had all that entertainment for FREE.

95% of Warframe's store stuff can be earned in game if you wait long enough meaning you end up paying for convience like you're supposed to in these type of deals. I want a new helmet? My options are pay for it, or wait till the RNG throws it up for free to be earned in-game. Plus they even make getting the premium currency (platinum) stupidly easy to get by by offering random coupons as log in rewards (going as high as 75% off for 24 hours).

This is how you do F2P, use great gameplay to lure people in then let them make the choice of what they WANT to spend without making them feel like they HAVE to.
 
Jan 27, 2011
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shteev said:
*Are* there loads of free to play games worth playing, Jim?

I ask genuinely because I can't find any. I'd love to play some.
League of Legends and DOTA 2 have reasonable Free to pay setups.

Tribes Ascend and Team Fortress 2 also do it well. I think there's also Path of Exile and Warframe...But I haven't played path of Exile yet, and I haven't touched warframe in months...

So yeah, good free to play DOES exist. It's just becoming more and more rare as everyone and their CEO jumps on the bandwagon and tries to ride it full speed off a cliff.

If you're looking for good "free-to-wait" games...The only one I know of that's good is Fallen London.
 

Lunar Templar

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Sep 20, 2009
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That 'addressing the devs making these 'games'' bit...

That was a thing of beauty Jim, it's been to long since we've seen such righteous fury and these fools deserve to be bent of a rail like that.
 

TheMadDoctorsCat

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Apr 2, 2008
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Jim, for once we completely agree. Mobile games are the "populist" option now - for many people who wouldn't otherwise play videogames - and it's just disgusting that they're exposed to this when they first get into them. It just sickens me that some people will be so short-sighted in their outlook that that they'd bring down the credibility of themselves and the business that they're in for a quick payday.

What I really want to say, though, is th

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Megacherv

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Sep 24, 2008
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I can't say I agree with that last sentiment. Developers work at a studio doing what they're told. It's a job, they're people living in a society that requires money to survive, so they'll carry on doing what they're told. They won't necessarily like it, but if they don't do it the higher-ups that make these awful decisions will stop paying them, and then those developers won't be able to support themselves or their families. Please don't shout at the developers for this.