Jimquisition: Free To Wait

[Vedli]

Jim, shut up. You have nothing but scorn for every single free-to-play game with time delays (and their developers) while there are games out there that are absolutely sublime and happen to use that model correctly and in an inoffensive manner. Have the dignity to properly inform yourself before you start spewing bile over an entire idea.

(For the record, the good games I was thinking of were Fallen London and Eliminate Pro, and while I don't play many FTP/mobile games both of them handle the "free-to-wait" model in two different and equally good ways)

I hope this game model dies a quick death; Who would support something like this?

Because some games do it well [fallenlondon.storynexus.com] and the developers producing that content deserve money.

EDIT: The mike drop at the end made me squee a bit. Glad that's back.

You know in future maybe instead of acting like a crying six year old you could show examples about how "free to wait" can be done well because by starting out by being rude and telling someone to "shut up" and to "inform themselves" when the vast majority of this model (to an outsider like me anyway) does indeed seem to be quite exploitative, makes you look like an hysterical moron who's opinion shouldn't be taken seriously (I'm assuming you are someone who get a little too emotional over the subject and posted something from a place of passion rather than logic). I don't type this to be mean or lash out but you really did hurt your own argument by lashing out rather then calmly showing examples of the model done right.

Secondly though I would ask the question, Would either of the games you mentioned be any worse of if they removed the timers?

 

[geier]

Well Jim what is so bad in this game type?
It's only going to affect idiots who pay, not you, me or any other sane person.

This would be the right time for a indy studio to create a "cell supervisor, vault guard, torture chamber steward, oubliette superintendent" game. The gamplay consists of little magical beings (gremlins, urchins, devilings) that maintain said structure underground and are guided by a supernatural entity. Switch the chicken for little piglets and we are set.

It's a free market Jim. With the outcry created by EA this game gets much free publicity. Don't get to upset about idiots and their games, you will live longer.

 

[IamLEAM1983]

The sad thing is this is going to take an absolutely massive surge at the BBB or, well, your local equivalent, before market authorities prod the publishers on the shoulder and go "Y'know what? That's kind of a low blow. Stop that shit or get ready for some class-action suit awesomeness."

Until an economist actually sits down and demolishes this business model, the App Stores and Google Plays of this world will keep behaving like the freaking Wild West.

 

[Citizen Graves]

The simple fact of the matter is simply that most people are stupid, and I don't mean this in a cynical or mean-spirited way.

That's just the whole truth behind it. Most people, normal people, are ignorant, uninformed, weak of mind, afraid and generally too preoccupied with their own life to realize it.

That goes for adults as well as for children (who apparently make up a large percentage of the consumer-base of mobile and F2P games).

Most people live the in their little rat-cage that they call life, doing their little rat-race, without ever realizing how they are being exploited.

What? You think Electronic Arts is doing something that other companies (like the Tobbaco Industry) haven't figured out years ago?

Most people are dumb and it could be argued that the morally right choice here is to protect them from their stupidity.

But protecting the dumb masses is so, so, so much more difficult than exploiting them.

And much less profitable, too.


Captcha: dream big

 

[hentropy]

I'm perfectly aware that there are "good" F2P games out there, at least relative to the metric shittons of crap out there, but at the same time I started boycotting them years ago and have found no real reason to go back.

Even if, as I said, there are some games that do it well, F2P will always produce games that are designed around trying to milk the customer of more money. Even if it is just "aesthetics" and give you no strategic advantage, it's still simply not a business practice any gamer should support, if for no other reason than it encourages people to abuse the system.

That's why I suggest a full-on boycott of every free-to-play game of any stripe. This scam must end before it becomes to norm, and expected, and that doesn't necessarily mean that the current "good" F2P games have to go, they can just offer demos and/or a trial for the game and make all those nice "aesthetic" things you had to pay for rewards for playing well, instead of ransoming content for more money. End it all, right now, and maybe then we can avoid a crash, if there is one to be avoided, but above that, we can maintain the integrity of medium.

 

[irishda]

But that's obviously missing the point. These *aren't* 'cheap little one-off games'. These are *incredibly expensive* games - if you actually want to play them as games.
>play them as games
>>as games
>>>GAMES
A Dungeon Keeper game where you have to wait 24 hours to dig out a brick is not a game at all. If you want it to be a game, you have to spend money. A *lot* of money. So these so-called games are devious excuses to persuade us to part with large sums of cash under the false pretence of giving us some kind of 'free' entertainment.

As others have said, I don't think this model is entirely impossible to implement fairly. I've mentioned Clash of Clans before as an example that seems to work pretty well - my son plays it a lot in the free mode, picking it up for a few minutes at a time every day, setting some things in motion and leaving it. My Singing Monsters is even better (and is one of the few games I've allowed him to spend some money on). But Dungeon Keeper does seem to have reached a real low point. And their ratings scam is frankly downright criminal.

Obviously some of the blame has to go on consumers too. We are far too unwilling to spend money on mobile games, making 'free' games the only workable business model. But I'd like to see more companies offering a simple 1-2-3 alternative: 1) Free demo; 2) Low-priced subscription or other incremental payment system; 3) higher-priced complete unlock. That seems to me a far more fair and transparent option.

I'm inclined to believe that's the crux of the matter right there. People want to treat these games as they have with other games, but, if you decide it doesn't have to be like that, then what power does their "buy this for extra time" have on you? These are two different game models, and it only seems unfair if you go in with Jim's locked perspective of "this is how you play games and this model roadblocks that".

Yet, your son, who's playing the same model as Jim, probably doesn't feel this is the worst thing to happen to gaming ever, because he doesn't treat THAT game like you would with other games. I myself like to play Avengers Alliance (even though the PVP is bullshit), yet don't find myself frustrated because "Oh, I'd have to buy more energy to keep going or just wait half an hour."

I'm not giving a game like Dungeon Keeper a pass here, though. It doesn't sound like a very good game at all. But let's keep this in perspective. Lots of people paid ACTUAL money to find out Colonial Marines wasn't good. With Dungeon Keeper, approximately no one paid money to find out it was shit. If they wanted to spend money after the fact is on them. By that margin, I'd dare say the FtP model is better than the standard one. EVERY game is a demo that never expires and goes forever, and you can decide to spend money on it at any time.

 

[Yuuki]

As long as consumers keep fueling this model and keep it profitable, it's here to stay.

Also I really hope EA stays on this track and wins most hated company in US for the 3rd year in a row. We're only 2 months into 2014 and they have already managed to fuck up so many things! That is what you call dedication.

 

[deathbydeath]

You know in future maybe instead of acting like a crying six year old you could show examples about how "free to wait" can be done well because by starting out by being rude and telling someone to "shut up" and to "inform themselves" when the vast majority of this model (to an outsider like me anyway) does indeed seem to be quite exploitative, makes you look like an hysterical moron who's opinion shouldn't be taken seriously (I'm assuming you are someone who get a little too emotional over the subject and posted something from a place of passion rather than logic). I don't type this to be mean or lash out but you really did hurt your own argument by lashing out rather then calmly showing examples of the model done right.

... You call me out for opening a post with an insult/petulant comment and yet you do the same thing that I did. High five, bro. (Clarification: The first three words were written in something like an exasperated sigh; if I were speaking it, then I would have used the same tone and phrase to address my uncle when he gets drunk and starts ranting about the gays again)

Secondly though I would ask the question, would either of the games you mentioned be any worse off if they removed the timers?

I have no clue how Fallen London would work if you removed the timers, but it would most likely cease being fun and cause players to get extremely bored extremely easily. Eliminate Pro, on the other hand, would remain pretty much exactly the same, except the devs wouldn't be able to make any money from it. I suggest you try them both; they are free, after all.

 

[deathbydeath]

Well Jim what is so bad in this game type?
It's only going to affect idiots who pay, not you, me or any other sane person.

Actually, it kinda does. In the Dungeon Keeper 2014 example, the game is essentially unplayable in the long term for whoever refuses to shell out cash to make it move at a reasonable pace. It's not like Team Fortress 2, where you have viable alternatives to not paying.

 

[CarbonJames]

Gamers need to embrace this model, not reject it.

Why? Because big pubs are screwing you. They are pulling back and not giving you demos of games like they should anymore.

I'm an oldschool dev. I remember Doom shareware. I remember demos. That's what F2P can be.

Do not rail against F2P in general. Get mad at shitty F2P that exploits players. But there are those of us that see it as a way to lay all our cards on the table. My game, AirMech, lets you play the whole game for free. You like it? You can "buy" it, unlike most F2P games. You'll get all the gameplay updates for life.

The way we make it better is by making more fair products so that players can reject the cashgrab manipulative bad examples.

Even things like Early Access, it's actually going in the wrong direction. Now you pay even BEFORE you get access to the finished product. Proper F2P says "here, check out our game, if you like it then you can buy it" and not put you on a hamster wheel where $100 doesn't even get you anywhere.

You can fix this. Spread the word about positive examples, then players will see there are alternatives.

 

[Trishbot]

For the hassle, annoyance, and disrespect EA's new Dungeon Keeper has towards its players, I expect them to pay ME to play their awful cash-in desecration of a once-beloved property.

 

[lord.jeff]

The moment I read your review on Loadout I knew this was going to be the topic for the week and I cant agree more.

 

[BrownGaijin]

Oh silly, silly Jim. The real reason why you're not having any fun with this game is that you're not play... hrm... you're not playing... heeeegggg... you're not playing it the right wa-

Spoiler

(smiles)

 

[Snotnarok]

People whine about Team Fortress 2 and Flappy Bird when one can be played with spending no cash, allowing you to find or trade any of the guns you want (I know because I've done it- and the other, Flappy Bird was free that was ad supported.
No reason to be mad at either- well unless you bought TF2 the day before it went free I guess, but Dungeon Keeper and all this shit? I have no idea how they're around still. I don't know who's the worst here, the dev, the store allowing it to be sold, or the people supporting it.

Mind boggling.

 

[geier]

[/quote]You don't HAVE to play it.[/quote]

Thats what i ment. There are so many games out there, let EA run this game with this scheme against the wall, who cares? Sure, it's sad to see a great game remade to shit.
When you are mad about the new game, do what i do when i get mad about the shitty Lord of the rings movies:
Ignore them and read the books again. Remind yourself of the good original.
So, buy the original Dungeon Keeper, play it and feel like a kid again.

 

[MB202]

Since when has something the Games Industry done NOT disgusting? Though yeah, I think Extra Credits talked about this; waiting for something to restore (unless you paid actual money for it) made sense on Facebook because it was assumed that you would have other things to do on Facebook to pass the time. Not so with every other game made NOT on Facebook since.

 

[Mahoshonen]

So the message is "fuck you if you worked on a bad F2P game"

Next week on Jimquisition, the gaming public is chastised for saying mean things to a developer.

Jim Sterling, Who You Crappin?

 

[IamLEAM1983]

What really scares me is what might come next. Say they decide to make a bigger Mass Effect transmedia push. They want the ME universe on phones and tablets in a bigger way. Guess what?

"Here comes Mass Effect: Corsair! Pilot your own ship during the events leading up to the Reaper War! Crush your opponents, expand your fleet! Earn your spot as a named War Asset in our new re-edition of Mass Effect 3!"

Then, we learn that everything takes anywhere between a second or two to an entire day to complete. Want to upgrade your ship and crew? Minerals are required. You can mine for minerals, but why spend so much time collecting a few dozen Eezo points at a time when you can snag yourself five hundred thousand points for JUST 69.99!

If they reach that point, they'll burn themselves. There's no freaking way in Hell the Mass Effect fanbase will let that slide.

 

[Leemaster777]

Thank you, Mr. Sterling. I was hoping you'd throw some well-deserved hatred at this topic this week. That was some quality, enjoyable bile.

I'm not one who usually enjoys shitting on someone specific like this, but this whole Dungeon Keeper fiasco has left me really fucking insulted that someone like EA would stoop to these blatant, despicable levels to milk cash out of the gaming community. Dungeon Keeper mobile is appalling, and there cannot be enough hatred thrown at everyone involved in it's creation.

On the brighter side, it has given us one of the most accurate image ever:

The irony is palpable.

 

[Darklupus]

I dunno, Jim. Phoenix Wright is a game as Tapped Out is a game. Sure, the reason Tapped Out uses the FreeToWait model is because it's based on the Simpsons television show and because of that the "game" fits the show. The way the "game" works is by having each Springfield citizen animate differently for a designated amount of time. True it's not very much. Okay, it really does suck. However I like it: I like the animations, the dialogue, the pixels...etc. So, I think it can be salvaged. Just add a game to it and you're done.