Jimquisition: Free To Wait

[LordMonty]

Jim seems upset and quiet passionate about this, I w8ill go buy loadout in response.

 

[Ohlookit'sMatty]

Man, this topic really got underneath Jims skin // I will say this in Dungeon Keepers favor thou, it does look really pretty // The effort that went into it's style, the different kind of floor tiles and walls as well as the creatures is commendably

It's business mode is, however, not

-M

 

[tzimize]

On the brighter side, it has given us one of the most accurate image ever:

Wahahahahah! Nice one :>

OT: Because of stupid crap like this I've more or less written off "free" games. I'd rather just pony up the dough for a decent product and be done with it. That said, even "regular" products nowadays are plagued with endless DLC garbage...*sigh*

 

[Mahoshonen]

Surprised no one else has noticed the hypocrisy on display here.

According to Jim, it's okay for him to call the developers of games he disapproves of cancers of the industry and if they are offended by that message, 'fuck you.'

But when anyone else gets personal and confrontational, they're driving out all the creative talent in the industry and the gaming public deserves whatever shallow, samey games we are left with. [http://www.escapistmagazine.com/videos/view/jimquisition/7955-Im-Going-To-Murder-Your-Children]

So Jim Sterling, before you get up on your reinforced soapbox, ask yourself two questions:

1. Is the wet sensation on your rear from me kissing my ass too much, or did you just crap myself?

and,

2. Who You Crappin'?

 

[Milanezi]

I only disagree with one thing: I don't see this business model growing at all, I mean, there are a handful of strong games that are thriving from it but that's all, all others are rip-offs of the successful one and, most of the time, games that "PC/console gamers" aren't really into...

I really wish I could argue the "good sense" point of view here as well, but that'd be wasted. The point exists (you make the gamer play through something or wait through something to get the goods, but give him the option to pay cash to get it faster) but, as we can all see, is of no interest to most companies, they just rather put such loooong waiting times that, as Sterling put, you have to actually pay to see progression (to pay again).

I don't complain about the price that Square Enix charges for their Final Fantasy games on iOS anymore (the true FFs, not the strange mobile only crap), I'd rather pay more for a complete version than zero and get extorted through the whole game.

Ps: guess my mom is safe from this, she plays that Hay Day and every time she was asked to buy something she bolstered "I'm not buying anything to speed up, what's the fun in that?". Yep, somehow she understands that part of the game's joy is in waiting hahahaha

 

[Milanezi]

On the brighter side, it has given us one of the most accurate image ever:

Wahahahahah! Nice one :>

OT: Because of stupid crap like this I've more or less written off "free" games. I'd rather just pony up the dough for a decent product and be done with it. That said, even "regular" products nowadays are plagued with endless DLC garbage...*sigh*

At least the DLC is (usually) truly optional, I mean you can enjoy the true essence of Skyrim and not need any DLC (other than patches, which, even though are free, shouldn't be around: the game should be as near perfect as possible upon release)... Whilst those games, many times (specially the crappy ones), put such amount of obstacles and impossible challenges in our way that we either pay to get through or, well, we don't.

Case in point: Candy Crush has some nigh impossible moments, but sooner or later you'll get through, no need to buy anything (and when you're 100+ and run out of lives you'll actually welcome the resting period hahah); recently I downloaded that Papa Pear thing, hell, there are some stages in which they're almost screaming at me "if you don't buy the bomb you'll never get through"...

 

[Lightknight]

I understand the free to play model. I just wish these games also had a fee to unlock option. One fee that generally gives me what I need. I will never shell out money for these games for individual things. But I would consider a single payment and done option as if I were buying the game.

 

[Atmos Duality]

Gamers need to embrace this model, not reject it.

Why? Because big pubs are screwing you. They are pulling back and not giving you demos of games like they should anymore.

I'm an oldschool dev. I remember Doom shareware. I remember demos. That's what F2P can be.

While I understand the sentiment behind your point, it can never quite be how shareware was.
Because you could keep the demo, while F2P games as designed and marketed as an ongoing service.

This is problematic because F2P games bank on user investment; time and/or money, which in turn, is (among other things) driving the market further and further away from selling full games. Instead, the business is shifting towards selling disposable thrills. Or services that penalize the player with time wasting bullshit...even when they're ponying up the cash.

In any case, with service-centric games, the holding company for that game is eventually going to fold, or move onto something newer to recapture the attention of a market with an rapidly decreasing attention span. All that time, money and effort you put into the F2P game will only be a memory. (this has happened to me with a F2P MMO before, and it's still the most soul-crushing thing I've ever experienced in my 25 years of video gaming.)

Worse, this cycle is going to intensify as F2P games become more popular, with more frequent releases all competing for the attention of the masses. Heavier and more "mercenary" monetization tactics are going to take over as each game has less and less time to turn a profit. (until the silent majority finally rejects the model en-masse, causing that part of the market to crash)

By now, I'm anticipating you or someone reading this to quote me with something like "Well, the model isn't for everyone."
While I concede that is true at a conceptual level, I do have a couple of parting comments about it:

If you're a gamer just looking for some time killing filler or a quick thrill, then the F2P or "Freemium" model is tailor-made for you. Congratulations, you're currently relevant to big business gaming. I hope that you don't experience the sudden snap-back I did, but given the current state of mainstream gaming and the direction it's going, it seems likely.

If you're a gamer who is just looking for a good game without artificial time wasting or over-monetized bullshit, well, you had better go indie or go away because the primary market has little to no need of you (and ever less need of you each year). Consider a new hobby. I know am.

 

[maddawg IAJI]

Jim, shut up. You have nothing but scorn for every single free-to-play game with time delays (and their developers) while there are games out there that are absolutely sublime and happen to use that model correctly and in an inoffensive manner. Have the dignity to properly inform yourself before you start spewing bile over an entire idea.

(For the record, the good games I was thinking of were Fallen London and Eliminate Pro, and while I don't play many FTP/mobile games both of them handle the "free-to-wait" model in two different and equally good ways)

I hope this game model dies a quick death; Who would support something like this?

Because some games do it well (google "Fallen London" because all my links break) and the developers producing that content deserve money.

EDIT: The mike drop at the end made me squee a bit. Glad that's back.

Fallen London is less of a game and more of a "Click here, then here, then here and we'll see ya tomorrow" moment.

A game should be enjoyable and accommodating to the player and shouldn't force the player to either wait or force the player to be their marketing team for them. Not to mention that the game requires several actions to finish a single storyline or mission and the prices for items are extremely high for no reason. Long story sort, Fallen London may not be as bad, but it is still a poor excuse for a free to play model when I can just boot up League of Legends, Team Fortress 2, Swtor or even WoW.

 

[Vedli]

You know in future maybe instead of acting like a crying six year old you could show examples about how "free to wait" can be done well because by starting out by being rude and telling someone to "shut up" and to "inform themselves" when the vast majority of this model (to an outsider like me anyway) does indeed seem to be quite exploitative, makes you look like an hysterical moron who's opinion shouldn't be taken seriously (I'm assuming you are someone who get a little too emotional over the subject and posted something from a place of passion rather than logic). I don't type this to be mean or lash out but you really did hurt your own argument by lashing out rather then calmly showing examples of the model done right.

... You call me out for opening a post with an insult/petulant comment and yet you do the same thing that I did. High five, bro. (Clarification: The first three words were written in something like an exasperated sigh; if I were speaking it, then I would have used the same tone and phrase to address my uncle when he gets drunk and starts ranting about the gays again)

Secondly though I would ask the question, would either of the games you mentioned be any worse off if they removed the timers?

I have no clue how Fallen London would work if you removed the timers, but it would most likely cease being fun and cause players to get extremely bored extremely easily. Eliminate Pro, on the other hand, would remain pretty much exactly the same, except the devs wouldn't be able to make any money from it. I suggest you try them both; they are free, after all.

Which only proves my point doesn't it? By surrendering the high ground and opening with a insult/petulant comment I undermined my own argument. The point I will admit was a bit clumsily delivered. And this isn't your drunk uncle here. This a man who has been a champion for the mobile market in the past who has seen a favorite property from the past ruined in order to make a quick buck. You can see why this would leave Jim very angry? If you disagree then thats fine but (if you would excuse another clumsy analogy) you don't get to be the good guy just for fighting the bad guy, not if you use his same methods (not calling Jim a bad guy or anything, calm down everyone).

 

[CaptainOctopus]

Damn straight, you tell it like it is Jim!

 

[NuclearKangaroo]

3:10 pretty much sums up any F2P (free to play) game, not just mobile or tablet games. I mean those PC F2P and console games too. You're given money that's almost useless by the truck full, and covet the token that one must pay to acquire. For the most part I'll play most F2P games up to the point where said bought currency is REQUIRED to progress. At that point the game is over. It's almost a game I play within in such games; how long will it let me pay before making me buy pretend money. For most the shadow looms over me fairly quickly in others it's the elephant in the room that blend in with the grey paint; I know it's there, but don't care since I can't see it. The games that do F2P (in this case free to pay) well make the game itself enjoyable even though some content it hidden behind that pay wall. These forced waiting games pretty much build the wall brick by brick as you play slowing trying to coax you towards their storefront.

false

dota 2 and TF2 have no such currencies

in path of exile and loadout premium currency is only used for cosmetics

in league of legends you can buy all champions without using the premium currency and Lord of the Rings Online allows you to earn premium currency for free



and those are only the ones ive played



from my lmited knowledge, it seems that mobile games and facebook games are the most guilty of abusing the F2P model

 

[Arawn]

false

dota 2 and TF2 have no such currencies

in path of exile and loadout premium currency is only used for cosmetics

in league of legends you can buy all champions without using the premium currency and Lord of the Rings Online allows you to earn premium currency for free



and those are only the ones ive played



from my lmited knowledge, it seems that mobile games and facebook games are the most guilty of abusing the F2P model

That's still 2 types of currency. One of these currency you have to purchase. And there are items or products that can only be obtained with that purchased currency. Yes, some games do allow you to earn the purchased currency for "free" in game, but at a much lower rate than buying directly. Marvel puzzle quest on Steam does that. Other games let you earn them by clicking ads,doing surveys, subscribing to newsletters, etc. Not saying those games are evil because of it, just that I hate that system of play. Forced waits to test your resolve to no purchase a speed up or unlock that new shiny mcguffin. It seems stupid to call a game free to play when microtransactions are pretty blatant.Again, not calling the games stupid, but the system employed.

 

[CarbonJames]

This is problematic because F2P games bank on user investment; time and/or money, which in turn, is (among other things) driving the market further and further away from selling full games.

I see things differently. My very first job in the industry I was lucky enough to be hired by Epic Games shortly before they released Unreal Tournament. I was inspired by Epic's passion to make the game great, and double inspired by watching Tim and Mark do battle against our publisher to release the "Bonus Packs" as free content. Smaller devs would have given in and just moved onto the next project, but Epic wanted to continue to not only patch bugs and improve the experience, they wanted to add new content.

I know, I was working on that stuff, and I was paid to do so. I added the Skaarj Hybrid and the Relics (art stuff) which wasn't something we were obligated to to. We did it because we believed it would make the game better, and help the game continue to sell and spread. Epic spent money to continue to develop UT after release, way beyond bugfixing. Looking back at it, UT could have been great for F2P when done by a respectable developer--the core game is free, and if you want skins and stuff they can be purchased. You get a huge community, and people can pay what they are comfortable with.

For our game AirMech, we have players who spend money just to say thanks and support us. It's actually really hard to spend a lot of money--the big spenders actually redistribute their wealth to others, doing giveaways and helping out new players. It's really heartwarming to watch.

Games as a service are a good thing as long as the devs aren't overly greedy. New players and new spenders pay for more content and more dev time. We are constantly adding features and content to AirMech that make the game better--not just cosmetics. Our only limitation is funding. As the game gets bigger, we invest more back into the game, and longtime players have a game that stays fresh and keeps getting better.

 

[deathbydeath]

Fallen London is less of a game and more of a "Click here, then here, then here and we'll see ya tomorrow" moment.

A game should be enjoyable and accommodating to the player and shouldn't force the player to either wait or force the player to be their marketing team for them. Not to mention that the game requires several actions to finish a single storyline or mission and the prices for items are extremely high for no reason. Long story sort, Fallen London may not be as bad, but it is still a poor excuse for a free to play model when I can just boot up League of Legends, Team Fortress 2, Swtor or even WoW.

The game was designed to be played during coffee breaks (or whatever your equivalent is), and it's just fine when played that way.

You seem to be judging FL as a game where you sit down and play it for several hours in the evening, and in that regard yes it is a terrible example of a FTW/FTP game. However, saying that LoL/TF2/TOR/WoW is better than Fallen London is like saying that a microwave is better than a toaster, and vice-versa. Sure, you can't sit down and fill an entire evening with a Fallen London session, but you can't fill a coffee break with a League match, either. Other things LoL/TF2/TOR/WoW don't have but FL does include: sheer novelty, really good writing, Lovecraftian horror, Victorian-era England, tiger wrestling, orphan chimney-sweeps, and Mr. Eaten.

 

[deathbydeath]

Which only proves my point doesn't it? By surrendering the high ground and opening with a insult/petulant comment I undermined my own argument. The point I will admit was a bit clumsily delivered. And this isn't your drunk uncle here. This a man who has been a champion for the mobile market in the past who has seen a favorite property from the past ruined in order to make a quick buck. You can see why this would leave Jim very angry? If you disagree then thats fine but (if you would excuse another clumsy analogy) you don't get to be the good guy just for fighting the bad guy, not if you use his same methods (not calling Jim a bad guy or anything, calm down everyone).

So because one of Jim's favorite IPs has been fucked over he gets to omit examples to the contrary and disregard an entire payment model for video games? If that's true than I'll go ahead and say that Rockstar is a shit company filled with shit people who make shit games with shit writing because Max Payne 3 was a terrible successor to MP1&2.

Also, you were the first person to bring morality into this. I claimed no moral high ground, so please don't say I did unless you want this to get nasty (that wasn't really intended to be a threat, that kind of false moral shaming just pisses me off really easily).

 

[Evonisia]

The fury and the mic drop, truly Jim's passionate about this subject, and it shows.

 

[Atmos Duality]

I see things differently. My very first job in the industry I was lucky enough to be hired by Epic Games shortly before they released Unreal Tournament. I was inspired by Epic's passion to make the game great, and double inspired by watching Tim and Mark do battle against our publisher to release the "Bonus Packs" as free content. Smaller devs would have given in and just moved onto the next project, but Epic wanted to continue to not only patch bugs and improve the experience, they wanted to add new content.

I cut my modding teeth on Quake 2, UT99' and Command & Conquer.
Those relics were amazing at the time (random spawning on nodes was quite the trick back when ChaosQ2 did it), and inspired more than a few fan works (Technolog Pack).

For our game AirMech, we have players who spend money just to say thanks and support us. It's actually really hard to spend a lot of money--the big spenders actually redistribute their wealth to others, doing giveaways and helping out new players. It's really heartwarming to watch.

That's a nice feelgood story; (I'm not being sarcastic, I mean it), but it's a complete irregularity.
Which is what I'd expect in a market that is almost entirely profit-driven.

Games as a service are a good thing as long as the devs aren't overly greedy.

Depends who you ask.
If you're a developer, it's great, because it means the potential for long term revenue and continued relevance.
If you're a player, well, it can be plenty fun, but don't get too attached.

Services come with additional dependencies and design criteria (for better and worse...in my experience, mostly worse).
Developers are dependent on regulars to cover maintenance costs, users are dependent on the developer for basic functionality (before you get to anything involving design or content).

New players and new spenders pay for more content and more dev time. We are constantly adding features and content to AirMech that make the game better--not just cosmetics. Our only limitation is funding. As the game gets bigger, we invest more back into the game, and longtime players have a game that stays fresh and keeps getting better.

Until it becomes infeasible to maintain. Then it all disappears in one fell swoop.

It's already happened to me before...(a few times now that I think about it)
Now I admit it's just my bias speaking, but pardon me for not thinking fondly of service-centric games when hundreds of hours of my life disappeared without warning.

 

[thepyrethatburns]

Is this really a scam? It not like you can't see what it is and it's sneakily taking money from your account. If people are buying it they are getting something out of it personally or they are just stupid. Either way how much money they spend on these things is on their heads and I don't see why we should care.

You should care because as long as incredibly stupid people buy into this crap then more of this crap will continue to be made. And in the worst case scenario it'll come to a point where you'll have no choice but to buy into it yourself because it'll be the only thing available. That's why.

That strikes me as an issue with gamers/magpies with money.

"Well, I have to play this because it's the only thing coming out."

So the Rapture happened and everything gaming-related from the Amiga to the Xbox360 got called home to heaven. No? Well, then there are enough games out there that you will ALWAYS have the choice not to buy into it. The only reason that gamers would have to buy into it is because of decades of being conditioned to buy the latest thing as soon as it comes out. Only "incredibly stupid people" would feel that they have no choice but to buy into something that they don't want to.

Even if the Video Game Rapture happens and it sucks everything but free-to-wait games up to heaven...

Y'know, there are other things to do with your life.

Ok let me rephrase that. In the worst case scenario you'd have no choice but to buy into Free to Wait if you wanted to play anything new.

In which case, you don't.

That's the point that I'm making. We, as a consumer base, have the option to not buy into this. If that's the only thing new coming out, then play some of the games that you missed this generation (If you can say that you have played every good game on PC/Wii/PS3/360 that came out during this generation, then you REALLY need to get some sun.) and wait out that phase of game development.

I try not to bring this up a lot but I am skipping this console generation entirely. Despite this, I'm still going to have new experiences just because of the sheer number of games that I've never finished. I have games that go all the way back to the NES that I haven't finished. Last year, I thoroughly beat Rogue Galaxy (a PS2 game) for the first time. Currently, I'm playing through Sacrifice (2000 PC game) and beating all the campaigns for the first time.

Yes, maybe some developer/publishers will collapse if gamers dust off their older consoles rather than buy games they hate. Hell, we might have an even worse replay of the 1983 crash where developers/publishers crash, stores close, sites shut down, and Jim Sterling makes a video entitled "Please start buying Buy-To-Wait games. I need this job."

But meaningful change demands sacrifice. If that's what it would take to steer gaming back to a more consumer-friendly, then so be it. The power is in the hands of the consumers. We just tell ourselves that it's not because it's harder to make changes in our "I gotta have all the shinies" attitude than it is to just kvetch about the situation.


This video applies to both sides of the equation. On the publisher/developer side, this is the mentality of the people trying to pressure you into buying worthless swampland.

But it also applies to gamers. To paraphrase:

If you're willing to wield the power, it's yours. If you're not, I have no sympathy for you.

It doesn't matter what you think other people will do. That's just an excuse to avoid action.

It doesn't matter what the developer/publishers are going to do. They're the ones trying to convince you to buy into this.

All that matters is what you can do about the situation. If you don't like the direction that the industry is going, stop buying their product. It's that simple.

 

[CarbonJames]

Until it becomes infeasible to maintain. Then it all disappears in one fell swoop.

It's already happened to me before...(a few times now that I think about it)
Now I admit it's just my bias speaking, but pardon me for not thinking fondly of service-centric games when hundreds of hours of my life disappeared without warning.

Lots of valid points in the non-quoted parts, but I wanted to comment on this in particular since it's something we've had in mind from day 1. Our game is very cheap to operate when it comes to servers and infrastructure. I did not want to build one of those house of cards that needs 20 devs just to keep the servers up. We are now at 9 devs and that's with actively expanding the game. We plan to support user generated maps. Maintaining the game probably would need 2 devs.

Our next planned project (a successor to Fat Princess, codename Cake) uses the same tech, so we can operate 2 games while keeping the core engine supported and continually improved.

We are the oddball though. If you are EA, you don't make games like this. You don't even approve games that don't project to make a billion dollars. For us, we just want to make enough to keep making games, and throw some mud in the eyes of companies exploiting players, showing that there is a better option. We don't have execs to pay and marketing machines to run. Carbon is devs making games for players, cutting executive management and marketing out of the loop. The end result (we hope) is a better value for everyone.