Jimquisition: Guns Blazing
- Thread starter Jimothy Sterling
- Start date
I knew this was coming after the mini-rant on Podtoid, and to be fair, I can definitely understand the reasons for it as well, especially with it being a Souls game, that was previously praised for not doing this shit.
Didn't expect the Belladonna ***** Fist to show up as well though.
Didn't expect the Belladonna ***** Fist to show up as well though.
And lo, on that day did Belladonna's rubber fist become a rallying point for all gamers disgruntled with the excesses of the AAA market to unite behind.
It has to be the bean counters right? I know Miyazaki isn't involved in the project directly.. and I have to wonder if part of the reason he stepped away was because he saw this coming. It wouldn't be so damning and downright pitiful if these publishers weren't all posting losses from their big releases.
I also wonder if down the road when this gets really bad if Kenji Inafune will catch any flak for the things he's said about the Japanese Games industry and how it needs to change.
I also wonder if down the road when this gets really bad if Kenji Inafune will catch any flak for the things he's said about the Japanese Games industry and how it needs to change.
I am one of those that Dark Souls and Demon Souls never appealed too. Sure I think they are good niche titles but they just don't scratch my gaming itch.
However, trying to make the game more like the games I own isn't going to make me anymore interested in the game I appreciate but don't give two craps about playing.
The only enjoyment I get out of mass appeal is reading the constant failing sales report of said mass appeal games.
However, trying to make the game more like the games I own isn't going to make me anymore interested in the game I appreciate but don't give two craps about playing.
The only enjoyment I get out of mass appeal is reading the constant failing sales report of said mass appeal games.
I'm thinking the Belladonna ***** Fist was intially a sex toy sent to Jim as an insult. It has in fact become a very cool prop doing exactly the opposite of what it's message might have been.
See, I saw that, and before he said what it was I thought "Wait, is that the Hand of Nod? Seems... somewhat appropriate considering the "Thank God for Me" thing and the fanbase he got and... oh wait, it's a porn reference. Nevermind."the antithesis said:
Nah, I know the guy who sent it. He's a fan of my Podtoid podcast. Given the subject matter we often broach on the show, it's a fitting gift.Mayamellissa said:
A disturbing gift, but a fitting one.
Not fitting in *that* way. Yet.
The fact that Namco Bandai is doing this is, as far as I can see, no different from what happened to shooters after Call of Duty. I really thought that it would be clear what happens when companies all climb aboard the homogenization train. The fact that it is now happening to RPGs is somewhere between sad and infuriating. I love Skyrim, and what I have seen from Dark Souls I'd love it too (need to wait for money to purchase it), but they are, and should be, different games. If this continues, however, I won't be wasting my money on Dark Souls 2.
Well it's not as baffling if you allowed your cynicism to seep into every pore of your being and your perception of society. All the heroes are dead and the world is run by people so short sighted and greedy that they make Gollem jumping into Lava after a ring look reasonable.
However I am not that person. I am still at least partially optimistic in thinking that they might be able to make this work however I have to strongly vehemently disagree with Voltano. There is a difference between innovation and betraying the core of the series. There is plenty of room for innovation here without having to throw half of the mechanics that define the games over board.
I usually don't do this but if you want a skill-progression system, go play Skyrim, when however you want to play a game about slow meticulous progression to a gauntlet of challenge then you can come join me in Dark Souls, what is not going to happen is the two games meeting in the middle because you then get the Venn Diagram problem.
A game that appeals to both Skyrimthusiasts and Darksoloist will appeal to a small percentage of both of those, but disappointing the majority of both. The Skyrimians because it is not enough like Skyrim and the Darksolians because it is nothing like what they were used to. This could result in commercial success but guarantees creative bankruptcy. All the horror franchises should be a proper example where they no longer have any idea to make a good game but still manage to sell enough to warrant continued sequels.
Resident Evil 6 is the inevitable fate of any game that decides to appeal to everyone, it pleases no one and subsists entirely on nothing but fan loyalty who play each game despite their full realization that what they are playing is no longer the game that they originally liked, a success for the company a widespread loss for gaming. It might happen with Dark Souls 2, however there is also the chance it will just flat out bomb.
We shall wait and see whether this will be another Resident Evil, Final Fantasy, Call of Duty, enter other franchise here that subsists not on quality but on user base loyalty/addiction.
However I am not that person. I am still at least partially optimistic in thinking that they might be able to make this work however I have to strongly vehemently disagree with Voltano. There is a difference between innovation and betraying the core of the series. There is plenty of room for innovation here without having to throw half of the mechanics that define the games over board.
I usually don't do this but if you want a skill-progression system, go play Skyrim, when however you want to play a game about slow meticulous progression to a gauntlet of challenge then you can come join me in Dark Souls, what is not going to happen is the two games meeting in the middle because you then get the Venn Diagram problem.
A game that appeals to both Skyrimthusiasts and Darksoloist will appeal to a small percentage of both of those, but disappointing the majority of both. The Skyrimians because it is not enough like Skyrim and the Darksolians because it is nothing like what they were used to. This could result in commercial success but guarantees creative bankruptcy. All the horror franchises should be a proper example where they no longer have any idea to make a good game but still manage to sell enough to warrant continued sequels.
Resident Evil 6 is the inevitable fate of any game that decides to appeal to everyone, it pleases no one and subsists entirely on nothing but fan loyalty who play each game despite their full realization that what they are playing is no longer the game that they originally liked, a success for the company a widespread loss for gaming. It might happen with Dark Souls 2, however there is also the chance it will just flat out bomb.
We shall wait and see whether this will be another Resident Evil, Final Fantasy, Call of Duty, enter other franchise here that subsists not on quality but on user base loyalty/addiction.
The thing of it is, publishers don't usually listen to a single voice on the Internet. They've got passels of marketing folks, business grads all, who study the industry, research the consumer, tailor their product to earn the most money from the most people, and then realize that someone has already done that and it's called Call of Duty.canadamus_prime said:
For the Internet to have an effect, it has to really scream and the message usually gets lost amid the raging. "Stop copying the AAA market! You're killing yourselves and ruining the medium! Stick to what you're already good at!" screams the Internet. "Stick to what you're good at!" hears the publisher and proceeds to tune out what is clearly an uninformed opinion advising stagnation. Such opinions have no place judging a highly-paid, well-educated marketing team that spent years doing costly research to advance profits. It's the Internet. There will be others out there who will offer support.
Jim's been consistent in his message and, one day, he will probably be proven right. Dark Souls 2 will crash and burn because of its hubris, taking hundreds of jobs with it, and the once-highly paid, well-educated marketing team will be out on their butts wondering how it all went wrong. There will be plenty of people to say "I told you so" but I imagine the message from Jim will be "What did you expect?" As Jim pointed out, this is where it starts. Dark Souls 2 might just become the textbook example of how not to do it, something that the video game industry apparently needs to realize that AAA business practices do not work anymore.
I don't think what you quoted in the video was quite damning enough. You are making some safe assumptions, but they are still just that: assumptions. Skyrim is referenced many times in this video and, interestingly enough, it's one of the best counterpoints to your video I can think of. TES started off as a super niche franchise. Hell, I didn't even know about it until TES III: Morrowind debuted on the original Xbox. In every TES since Daggerfall they have worked to widen that "net" and bring in as many new fans as possible.
While I believe Morrowind to be the best in the series, I recognize Oblivion and Skyrim are still great games that have not yet abandoned the things that make TES games great. There's a right way and a wrong way to widen the net. Yes, Bethesda's made some mistakes in this regard (over reliance on voice acting, hand-holding mechanics, etc.) but overall I would say that they're doing good work. If a niche game can garner new fans without losing its soul... more power to it.
I think it's too early to say that Dark Souls 2 will drop the ball, but I can certainly see where you are coming from. As you've sited, there are plenty of franchises who've recently done the same thing and failed miserably.
As always,
Thank God for Jim.
While I believe Morrowind to be the best in the series, I recognize Oblivion and Skyrim are still great games that have not yet abandoned the things that make TES games great. There's a right way and a wrong way to widen the net. Yes, Bethesda's made some mistakes in this regard (over reliance on voice acting, hand-holding mechanics, etc.) but overall I would say that they're doing good work. If a niche game can garner new fans without losing its soul... more power to it.
I think it's too early to say that Dark Souls 2 will drop the ball, but I can certainly see where you are coming from. As you've sited, there are plenty of franchises who've recently done the same thing and failed miserably.
As always,
Thank God for Jim.
I'm more concerned that these people are actually making executive decisions and have presumably gone to business school.
If you say, presented a yearly plan to a board at a fortune 500 company and essentially your plan boils down to "Do this and hope to god it works" you'll be thrown out on your ass. Does no one do market validation anymore?
If you say, presented a yearly plan to a board at a fortune 500 company and essentially your plan boils down to "Do this and hope to god it works" you'll be thrown out on your ass. Does no one do market validation anymore?
Thanks for voicing these concerns Jim, I just hope sooner rather than later it reaches the publishers.Jimothy Sterling said:
The relatively new trend of trying to appeal to everyone, with every game bothers me. Instead of trying to cover as much of the potential market as possible in a series of smaller games, every game apparently has to target a single, albeit large, group of consumers. Some of these games will be successful, sure, but there are only so many games people can by. By appealing to as many people as possible, you're still only targeting one segment of gamers. You're dooming yourself to failure simply by over-saturating this audience.
There's a reasonably large number of gamers who aren't being delivered to very often, and have the desire and money to buy new games. There is room for profit here, but you have to be moderate in your investments. You don't even need to constantly create new IPs if you're that scared of unproven titles, just don't mutate niche titles into something they aren't. It's truly bizarre that large publishers can't seem to grasp a business concept as basic as supply and demand.
Instead, my wallet remains closed for the majority of the year.
...wow Jim, you really got mad there. And it was GLORIOUS.
OT: I can vouch for what he said here, about a small but loyal fandom being enough. Look at Skullgirls for instance. A downloadable title with a moderate following in the west. Remember when the developer Lab Zero said they needed $150,000 for one DLC character? They got $829,362, and decided to port it to PC, make a disc and arcade release in Japan, hire some new team members, make five DLC characters, add four stoy modes, create four stages, record six voice packs and three announcers, make a list of future DLC characters so fans could decide who they want to see in the game, and to give their engine to Mane6[footnote]The Fighting is Magic development team[/footnote] for free. Because the fanbase was willing to support a tiny but incredibly well done game. If Namco would be willing to stick to the exsisting Demons/Dark Souls audience, god know what they'd make.
OT: I can vouch for what he said here, about a small but loyal fandom being enough. Look at Skullgirls for instance. A downloadable title with a moderate following in the west. Remember when the developer Lab Zero said they needed $150,000 for one DLC character? They got $829,362, and decided to port it to PC, make a disc and arcade release in Japan, hire some new team members, make five DLC characters, add four stoy modes, create four stages, record six voice packs and three announcers, make a list of future DLC characters so fans could decide who they want to see in the game, and to give their engine to Mane6[footnote]The Fighting is Magic development team[/footnote] for free. Because the fanbase was willing to support a tiny but incredibly well done game. If Namco would be willing to stick to the exsisting Demons/Dark Souls audience, god know what they'd make.
I really, really did just want to play Tomb Raider 
You know what, I'm the sort of person Namco Bandai are marketing Dark Souls 2 to. I haven't played Dark/Demons Souls because they're not my sort of game but I played the shit out of Skyrim. But I'm so sick and tired of genre games being homogenised that I steer clear of anything that is made to appeal to everyone.
I love fantasy games but I won't support you for this Namco Bandai.
You know what, I'm the sort of person Namco Bandai are marketing Dark Souls 2 to. I haven't played Dark/Demons Souls because they're not my sort of game but I played the shit out of Skyrim. But I'm so sick and tired of genre games being homogenised that I steer clear of anything that is made to appeal to everyone.
I love fantasy games but I won't support you for this Namco Bandai.
Until big developers learn to start earning loyalty from consumers and stop demanding/expecting it this will keep going on.
Wellp, that's a real shame; then again studio execs have a tendency to run their mouths a little bit. I think a tiny percentage of the problems that Dark Souls II (really? 2? No better ideas?)will face is going to be that, after these comments, people are going to be entering it expecting to have problems with the choices it makes, and then finding those problems where they might not have otherwise. Of course, remains to be seen how it actually turns out as opposed to how it's marketed. If it turns out to be just Dark Souls with a marketing budget, then we can call ourselves fortunate.
If the predictions are correct, it's potentially not so bad. So Dark Souls II would be done 'wrong', but it'd be out in the market for all to see. Then we'd just need a different, mid-tier development team from somewhere else to observe what was 'right' about Dark Souls and 'wrong' about Dark Souls II, and make their own interpretation, hopefully capturing the feel of the first two 'Souls'. Sure it wouldn't be a Souls game, but thems the breaks I suppose.
Slim chance is still a chance, I say.
Also, the combination of the suit, hat and gloves is giving Jim a real resemblance to some kind of apocalyptic mayor. I want this man at the head of my cabinet. Whatever that means.
If the predictions are correct, it's potentially not so bad. So Dark Souls II would be done 'wrong', but it'd be out in the market for all to see. Then we'd just need a different, mid-tier development team from somewhere else to observe what was 'right' about Dark Souls and 'wrong' about Dark Souls II, and make their own interpretation, hopefully capturing the feel of the first two 'Souls'. Sure it wouldn't be a Souls game, but thems the breaks I suppose.
Slim chance is still a chance, I say.
Also, the combination of the suit, hat and gloves is giving Jim a real resemblance to some kind of apocalyptic mayor. I want this man at the head of my cabinet. Whatever that means.