Jimquisition: Hardcore Hypocrisy
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They both didn't change a lot. The thing is, there are single player campaigns, stories that arent in a previous game, and however small, if you are of the fanbase for it, you may want to see the next chapter.Daystar Clarion said:
Kart Customization is a superficial add on, not something necessarily needed or storyline expanding. Not only that, but things like the blue shells, that punish good players, kind of undermine the game play. They could have done more for the game. Even adding a decent amount of storyline would have helped it tremendously.
I find some of these comments hilarious. Basically anybody in this thread who has labelled something as "casual" in a derogatory way and/or has some kind of arbitrary, internal criteria for "hardcore" games or gamers is the sort of person Jim is talking about.
Ok Jim.
Your right on the bullshit of casual vs hardcore. However the problem is that your attributing that same argument to infinity blade, which regardless of what people will voluntarily say, People dont criticize infinity blade for being casual or lacking depth, the criticism is because its a product for an apple platform. Which by platform based birthright automatically deems it worthy of being criticized much as any product, first or third party that is exclusive to apple is deserving of.
Had Infinity blade been released on a platform that wasnt based on gouging a healthy mix of the rich and the retarded you simply would not hear these arguments. But because it is, It is. So perhaps the problem at least in this instance is not so much hardcore hypocrisy as much as it is getting your panties in a bunch over someone indirectly saying something negative against a platform you support.
So the argument while not loosing all of it, does loose a tad bit of validity when part of the argument is essentially just a defense of a gaming platform that is neither needed or even wanted. Remove support for apple from the equation, and I agree. Otherwise it just sounds like another apple fanboy cheering about how their gimped OS is awesome and totally not slick marketing, smoke and mirrors.
Your right on the bullshit of casual vs hardcore. However the problem is that your attributing that same argument to infinity blade, which regardless of what people will voluntarily say, People dont criticize infinity blade for being casual or lacking depth, the criticism is because its a product for an apple platform. Which by platform based birthright automatically deems it worthy of being criticized much as any product, first or third party that is exclusive to apple is deserving of.
Had Infinity blade been released on a platform that wasnt based on gouging a healthy mix of the rich and the retarded you simply would not hear these arguments. But because it is, It is. So perhaps the problem at least in this instance is not so much hardcore hypocrisy as much as it is getting your panties in a bunch over someone indirectly saying something negative against a platform you support.
So the argument while not loosing all of it, does loose a tad bit of validity when part of the argument is essentially just a defense of a gaming platform that is neither needed or even wanted. Remove support for apple from the equation, and I agree. Otherwise it just sounds like another apple fanboy cheering about how their gimped OS is awesome and totally not slick marketing, smoke and mirrors.
I loved the opening, the end line, and the part with the mario kart fan. That made me lol.
Usually I dislike when you do these kind of episodes, being very condescending and generalising. Not every gamer is the average internet moron, and especially on the Escapist there's a smaller percentage than at most places. But this time it was different, because even if it's something that should be obvious I see this kind of hypocrisy every day.
I think the Escapist podcast said it better, though this was a much needed more aggressive approach.
Usually I dislike when you do these kind of episodes, being very condescending and generalising. Not every gamer is the average internet moron, and especially on the Escapist there's a smaller percentage than at most places. But this time it was different, because even if it's something that should be obvious I see this kind of hypocrisy every day.
I think the Escapist podcast said it better, though this was a much needed more aggressive approach.
I have, got it yesterday at 6 or 7 PM and then played till 3 AM...Jove said:
O.O So addicting, and so fun! It actually gives a lot of tension when developing a game. Not getting enough points, a black out or a bug that made you have to go to a back up.
Well COD is the sort of thing that can be recycled. It's a standard of games, while Mario Kart isn't meant to be repackaged at all.
Just because you're first, you're getting quoted as a starting point for the casual/hardcore debate. Also; you're right. Kinda.mad825 said:
And you're getting quoted because I'm going to see if I can create a better definition of "casual" and "hardcore" than the nonsensical definitions thrown around.Guy Jackson said:
Let's start with the most relevant wiktionary definitions:
Hardcore: Having an extreme dedication to a certain activity
Casual: 1) Informal, relaxed; 2) Coming without regularity; occasional or incidental
Instantly we see that a game cannot be "casual" or "hardcore", only the people playing said game. A hardcore gamer is just someone who plays a lot of games, either different games or the same game. A casual gamer is someone who doesn't have a rigid (time) structure to their gaming (one who plays games when it suits them), and doesn't play by any rules other than those present in the game. Notice how there is overlap here! You can play a lot of games when it suits you, without the formality associated with external meta-rules. What do I mean by this? Well:
The antonym of "casual gamer" would entail someone who plays regularly and formally, and the best word to describe these people would be "amateur gamers" or "professional gamers" (depending on if they are paid or not). These people play by strict out-of-game rulesets (the formal aspect), and play with and against other players on a regular basis. Per definition, these people would be "hardcore gamers" because of their dedication, but hardcore gamers are not necessarily not casual gamers.
So in conclusion, we have a new separation:
On the x-axis:
· Casual (plays without external rules)
· Amateur (plays with external rules: tournaments and the like)
· Professional (same as amateur, but gets a regular paycheck)
And on the y-axis:
· Hardcore (one with extreme dedication to the medium)
· [we_need_a_name_for_this] (one with little/no dedication to the medium; those who only play at parties, might occasionally play some games on their phone, etc)
Of course there's confusion when you try to separate people/games into two groups that aren't opposites! The vast majority of gamers are casual gamers, and there's nothing wrong with that. And the vast majority of people on this forum are hardcore gamers, and there's nothing wrong with that either.
PS: RPG: any game where the player takes on the role of an imaginary (and customizable (this is the subset that most people refer to when they say RPG)) character.
Agreed, I game in different levels depending on the games.MonkeyPunch said:
I play shitty hack n slash games, alongside quality shooters, for a quick thrill and to kill shit.
I play Dialogue and sandbox games for long-lasting experiences and freedom.
I play RPG's for the build-up of training and to watch the conversion of my scrawny farm boy turn into the Champion of Mankind.
I am a gamer, and like talking to those who are alongside me, whether in obsession or in small ways.
Personally I see casual gamers in a better light then some of the "hardcore" gamers, not because i dislike my hardcore buddies, but because if casual gaming doesn't grow, people won't be open to the idea of video-games, and we'll be back to where we started, now won't we?
Jim is creating a strawman here by arguing against two conflicting definitions of the term "casual" that won't be used by single person and then yell hyprocrisy anyway.
The term casual game, may have been used by some to mean a simple game, but to most it means easy.
Ninja Gaiden may be simple, compared to a RTS or RPG, for example, but very few would consider it casual, because the game is hard to beat. There is no hypocrisy here.
Now if that same person won't call a classic nintendo-hard game a "hardcore game", would that make it hypocritical?
Not if hardcore vs casual isn't a binary choice. Not everyone holds the definition that hardcore would be "non-casual".
Hardcore game: the game has a learning curve that takes skill and practice to master; a challenge posed by the computer or other players that forces you to continue to improve on your understanding of the game; punishes failure and rewards higher skill.
Good examples: SC, WC3, COH.
So if the game is very hard, but only tests your reflexes and muscle memory, perhaps that game is just "hard"; not casual, not hardcore.
Casual game then is a useful term, for labeling easy games, the gamer who wants a challenge doesn't need to bother with.
The term casual game, may have been used by some to mean a simple game, but to most it means easy.
Ninja Gaiden may be simple, compared to a RTS or RPG, for example, but very few would consider it casual, because the game is hard to beat. There is no hypocrisy here.
Now if that same person won't call a classic nintendo-hard game a "hardcore game", would that make it hypocritical?
Not if hardcore vs casual isn't a binary choice. Not everyone holds the definition that hardcore would be "non-casual".
Hardcore game: the game has a learning curve that takes skill and practice to master; a challenge posed by the computer or other players that forces you to continue to improve on your understanding of the game; punishes failure and rewards higher skill.
Good examples: SC, WC3, COH.
So if the game is very hard, but only tests your reflexes and muscle memory, perhaps that game is just "hard"; not casual, not hardcore.
Casual game then is a useful term, for labeling easy games, the gamer who wants a challenge doesn't need to bother with.
Oh man, back in the day, my sis and I had a zen-like connection that lead to the doom of many self-proclaimed "pros" at Double Dash. For most levels, I drove, she killed.Cpu46 said:
Don't be fooled by the cutesy colors: Double Dash can be every bit as cutthroat competitive as any shooter.
I like it. I like it a lot!
I think this vid was a version, which much broader appeal, of what you were trying to say in the Kirby episode. That is, that a simple game need not be shitty or so easy as to not be worth it. And you did it with jokes, references to great games from the past that embody this principle but are not referred to as 'casual', and with the all-important reminder to hardcore gamers that they are not special. They are not cyber-warrior-monks. They're just the same video game enthusiasts as those who play casual games but with different tastes.
I think this vid was a version, which much broader appeal, of what you were trying to say in the Kirby episode. That is, that a simple game need not be shitty or so easy as to not be worth it. And you did it with jokes, references to great games from the past that embody this principle but are not referred to as 'casual', and with the all-important reminder to hardcore gamers that they are not special. They are not cyber-warrior-monks. They're just the same video game enthusiasts as those who play casual games but with different tastes.
I'm a jaded gamer: It's not that fun to me...at all if the game isn't breaking ground in story telling and/or gameplay like Shadow of the Colossus or Persona 4 in some original way. Everything else and every game that fails to reach said standards are all the same level to me. ^_^
On a completely different subject than the current discussion, what was the game appearing at 1:30? It's the Black and green one that looked as if it could be on the Game Boy.
(Not a troll bait question or anything. I'm being serious
)
(Not a troll bait question or anything. I'm being serious
)
And I always thought when first hearing the term hardcore gaming, mean the opposite to casual Wii games, 'ah they are talking about complicated thongs like flights sims with 100 page manuals, etc'. But no it was just owners of the other two consoles trying to differentiate themselves from Wii and mobile play by calling themselves hardcore for playing that those on the PC consider not very hardcore at all. I myself am quite happy playing a complicated game which makes your brain hurt or something simple on my preferred PC and had always thought it was all just gaming.
The point is this whole hardcore thing was doomed to fail from the start as the definition was always stupid, though up by people trying to backlash against all though new people brought into gaming by the Wii and mobile devices. A better definition might have been casual and AAA game players. Like arthouse or mainstream movies fans in cinema.
Those calling themselves 'hardcore' gamers aren't, they are just non welcoming douches....
The point is this whole hardcore thing was doomed to fail from the start as the definition was always stupid, though up by people trying to backlash against all though new people brought into gaming by the Wii and mobile devices. A better definition might have been casual and AAA game players. Like arthouse or mainstream movies fans in cinema.
Those calling themselves 'hardcore' gamers aren't, they are just non welcoming douches....
I'm not mad. I play games because they are fun. Mario cart is one of the few games I can play with my sister who hardly ever plays games.
Infinity blade actually looks like i game i would like to be ported to PC.
I can be down on a lot of the mobile platform games for being little more than a re-skin of some classic old school game that isn't paying a penny to the creator because they are little better than the guys selling cams of new cinema releases out side Tesco.
That how ever doesn't make mobile gaming invalid, just... new. even if it is nearly as old as regular gaming.
I can be down on a lot of the mobile platform games for being little more than a re-skin of some classic old school game that isn't paying a penny to the creator because they are little better than the guys selling cams of new cinema releases out side Tesco.
That how ever doesn't make mobile gaming invalid, just... new. even if it is nearly as old as regular gaming.
