Jimquisition: Hardcore Hypocrisy

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Cpu46

Gloria ex machina
Sep 21, 2009
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Atmos Duality said:
Cpu46 said:
Otaku World Order said:
So... Call of Duty is casual and Mario Kart is hardcore? Did I wake up in the Bizarro universe or something?
Try playing Double Dash with 4 players going through the final stretch, both racers perfectly in tune with their partners, neck and neck down to the last moment with a blue shell bearing down on you and tell me Mario Kart isn't hard core. I have lost blood over that game.
Oh man, back in the day, my sis and I had a zen-like connection that lead to the doom of many self-proclaimed "pros" at Double Dash. For most levels, I drove, she killed.

Don't be fooled by the cutesy colors: Double Dash can be every bit as cutthroat competitive as any shooter.
My sis doesn't have any zen. What she has are lightning fast reflexes, magma for blood, and a never say die attitude. To date my toughest opponent ever. Me and my cousin are the ones with the near telepathic connection and it still takes the two of them working in perfect unison to knock my sister out of first place whether she is alone or partnered with someone else.
 

GothmogII

Possessor Of Hats
Apr 6, 2008
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Daystar Clarion said:
EverythingIncredible said:
Daystar Clarion said:
EverythingIncredible said:
But by focusing on handheld, mobile and console gaming, we are consistently taking steps backwards.
PC master race senses are tingling...

Because all the best games have only been PC games right?
Deus Ex

System Shock 2

Europa Universalis

I dare you to find any iPhone game that lives up to those games in complexity.
I will, when IOS gaming has been around long enough to establish itself as a true gaming platform. Those games weren't exactly early in the PC's life cycle.
Except...don't games like Infinity Blade prove that games like system Shock or Deus Ex can already be made on the platform -now-? It's not a matter of lacking the resources or capabilities. For god's sake, Infinity Blade already looks about as damn good as many other modern releases, so it is not an issue of having to grow the technology up.

Hell, they could make a Civilisation game for the damn thing! If I'm not allowed to assume pure laziness, then do tell, what is the compelling reason for more often than not providing such weightless content?
 
Dec 14, 2009
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GothmogII said:
Daystar Clarion said:
EverythingIncredible said:
Daystar Clarion said:
EverythingIncredible said:
But by focusing on handheld, mobile and console gaming, we are consistently taking steps backwards.
PC master race senses are tingling...

Because all the best games have only been PC games right?
Deus Ex

System Shock 2

Europa Universalis

I dare you to find any iPhone game that lives up to those games in complexity.
I will, when IOS gaming has been around long enough to establish itself as a true gaming platform. Those games weren't exactly early in the PC's life cycle.
Except...don't games like Infinity Blade prove that games like system Shock or Deus Ex can already be made on the platform -now-? It's not a matter of lacking the resources or capabilities. For god's sake, Infinity Blade already looks about as damn good as many other modern releases, so it is not an issue of having to grow the technology up.

Hell, they could make a Civilisation game for the damn thing! If I'm not allowed to assume pure laziness, then do tell, what is the compelling reason for more often than not providing such weightless content?
I understand that, it's more a matter of waiting for a dev to commit to something like that for IOS. The tech exists, someone just needs to come along and make that game.
 

shrekfan246

Not actually a Japanese pop star
May 26, 2011
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emeraldrafael said:
EDIT:

Its gonna be funny when Jim has to make a video here defending himself for his mario kart/cod "controversy"

I think this video is relevant to that edit.

This thread is already becoming a brewing flame war. If it weren't for how long I've been playing World of Warcraft, I'd really be surprised by how hateful gamers can be of other gamers.
 

Therumancer

Citation Needed
Nov 28, 2007
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The thing to understand here is that those "retro games" are decades old, gaming advanced since then. Those games were simple because the technology of the time couldn't really do much better.

It's also important to note the absolutly punishing difficulty of a lot of those simple games, that is not present in the Iphone games, and that is something important that is missing from this equasion. Games on the Iphone are designed so just about anyone can sit down and beat them with minimal effort and a bit of repetition, compared to many of those retro games where that was hardly the case.

The thing to understand also is that the divide exists not so much because of sneering arrogance on the part of actual hardcore gamers, but because the industry has grown so greedy and corperate that it is not producing much in the way of hardcore games. Nobody would give a crap if all the developers were not so focused on making accessible, casual, games for the lowest human denominator. If we were seeing an equal number of deep, hardcore titles coming out this divide wouldn't exist. The gaming industry figures it can produce those casual games more easily and cheaply, and hit a much larger audience, and this make more money. Hardcore games ARE profitable, but not as profitable as casual shovelware, so shovelware is primarily what we see.

To argue that the iphone or your typical tablet is as valid a gaming platform as a console that was out decades ago, is to defend a gaming not only ceasing to move forward, but literally regressing back to it's infancy in a practical sense.

When it comes to people crying over missing the old school, it should be noted what those people are saying they want are things like "Demon's Souls" or "Dark Souls" modern technology, decent depth, and a reasonably steep learning curve combined with punishing difficulty that makes progress inherantly rewarding. You however see ridiculously few games of that sort, just as you increasingly see very few deep and complicated RPGs.. which traditionally don't have the punishing difficulty, are are (for good reason) complex enough to not be approachable to the casual market. Today all RPGs need to generally be simplified or spliced into some kind of action game that undercutes the entire point of having an RPG to begin with.

Truthfully with so many gaming-media personalities coming out in defense of casual games and gamers, I confess to some growing concern. What should be the guardians of the industrial seem to be falling into line with the mass-market demands, the same way professional reviewers did before them.

Or in short, there is nothing inherantly wrong with casual games, as long as there are enough serious games produced to meet the demand, and really there aren't since the casual market has ultimatly been replacing them. Defending a game as being good as something from the 80s or early 90s is really kind of sad given that we're almost into 2012.
 

plainlake

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Jan 20, 2010
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So.. this "hardcore gamer" group.. Do they have a downwritten ideology? Because Jim seems to simply have an idea of who is in this group. This is stereotyping and you know who stereotyped alot? Hitler did. yeah, dident know that did ya?
TL:DR
Jim Sterling is a nazi(wich could be good people in a pressured situation)
 

Strain42

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Mar 2, 2009
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Treblaine said:
Hardcore Hipster here: I've been championing hardcore iOS games before Jim Sterling made a video about it
Same here. I love my iPod Touch, it's actually the one gaming console I use the most now. It's small, easy to carry, loaded with fun games and more often than not I'm finding FREE games on the top charts.

I'm glad that Jim did an episode about it, because I really do wish people would stop treating iOS games as somehow inferior.
 

Hiroshi Mishima

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Sep 25, 2008
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kiri2tsubasa said:
I have always used this definition of gamer. Do you play games, 'yes', do you like playing games, 'yes', do you know how to get the games that interest you (retail, DD, etc), 'yes', congratulations, you are a gamer.
This is a great way of putting it. Like Jim's example, my mother actually played NES games with me. Stuff like Othello, Monopoly, Anticipation, Pinball... certainly not as "difficulty" as something like Mario or Final Fantasy, but we had a lot of fun. She especially enjoyed bowling games, which is why she monopolized my Wii for a summer playing Wii Sports' bowling game with my aunt and their friends.

...damn, lost my train of thought cause I got caught up watching MegaUltraJMan while posting this and became hopelessly entranced by Super Tempo.

I'll just sum this up by saying that Jim's got a lot of good points, and I think more than a few "hardcore" gamers can go stick their heads in a bucket of water. Also, having grown up on ridiculously hard-ass games on the Atari and NES, I have absolutely no gods-damned problem with games being a bit easier these days. I certainly don't have months to devote to mastering a game and just wanna relax and have fun.. but of course, "hardcore" gamers will tell you that's not what gaming is about.

I wonder if Jim did a video on "difficulty", cause I see far too many people bitching about games being easy, while I see just as many complaining that they're too hard. Unfortunately, all the people going on that games are too easy makes the developers thing we want harder games. Many games, when localized to the US, somehow end up being deliberately made harder or simply have difficulty settings removed for some obligatory reason.

By the way, I don't think "casual" gamers should be let off, either. Though they aren't as big of a problem as the "hardcore" crown, they can be seen as a reason why so many games don't try hard enough to come up with new ideas. Unfortunately, the same can also be said of the other side of the coin, and now I'm just rambling and forgetting what point I was trying to make.

So I'll stop talking here. Hopefully someone can make sense of this. :p
 

remnant_phoenix

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Apr 4, 2011
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RoseArch said:
If we are all wrong, and you are right. THen what happens when we agree with you?
Paradox! Universe explodes.

Truly though, you can't apply logic to hyperbolic rhetoric and expect clean results.
 

MB202

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Sep 14, 2008
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I don't own any iOS devices, but I might get one just to play Infinity Blade II... Among other things...
 

Kapol

Watch the spinning tails...
May 2, 2010
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My problem with Infinity Blade and many other iOS games is simple. They're exclusive to iOS and ignoring the Android market entirely. As someone who doesn't want to shell out $500+ for a piece of hardware that I can get the same specs with upgradeable memory instead of being force to handle such a pultry ammount of space for about $300, it really sucks to see so many flocking to the Apple platform just because it has more customers right now.

But with the growing awareness of Android, and it becoming much more widespread over a variety of tablets and phones, I think it'll gain strength before too long. I just hope that the companies making great games like Infinity Blade realize that before it's too late and at least give us something. I think the problem will end up being kinda end up being similar, yet entirely more pointless, then console vs. PC.
 

snd_dsgnr

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Feb 14, 2009
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Here's my problem with something like Infinity Blade in particular and games designed for phones in general: they make the battery run out faster, sometimes much faster.

Maybe I'm in the minority here, but I kind of need to have my phone available and my job doesn't always give me the opportunity to charge it in the middle of a shift. Most of the time if I'm able to charge my phone and play a game at the same time it's because I'm in my house, and if I'm in my house then why wouldn't I just play something on one of the three dedicated consoles or gaming PC that are also in residence?

So I don't really have any problem with IOS or Android games as games, I tend to agree that some of them are actually pretty clever in how they set up control schemes. I just don't know that I really see this as the next big step in gaming, as some people seem to think it will be. I do think the expansion of the phone game market will end up sounding the death knell for dedicated portable consoles though.
 

Krion_Vark

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Mar 25, 2010
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Otaku World Order said:
So... Call of Duty is casual and Mario Kart is hardcore? Did I wake up in the Bizarro universe or something?
By the definition for Casual and Hardcore that Jim gave in the episode they are both casual games because they are simple to play. While a game like Dark Souls is a hardcore game because of how difficult it is.
 

Vault101

I'm in your mind fuzz
Sep 26, 2010
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the way I've seen it...I judge somones "hardcore" verses "casual" NOT in the games they play..but how much they KNOW

if somone freaquents sites like the escapist, can name and understand different games and genres and just generally "know" whats what in the industry right now then I would call them hardcore..

but thats just me
 

Vault101

I'm in your mind fuzz
Sep 26, 2010
18,855
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Sixcess said:
I don't hate casual games.

I hate the industry for dumbing so many games down so that those smug, middle class cunts in those video excerpts might consider playing them.

The industry is in love with the idea that their games will gain wider recognition and acceptability - which translates either into being played at parties by 'non-gamers' or, on the flipside, being played by the multiplayer jock crowd - how else explain Bioware's desperate whoring to multiplayer other than their acceptance of the stereotype that single player is for nerds, brah... Each is as bad as the other.
.....I dont think single player is going anywhere though...depth and complexity sure
 

LazyAza

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May 28, 2008
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I always laugh at the hardcore vs casual whiners because like most sane people who play games I like diversity. Not every game needs to have a million systems and a billion hours of content to be amazing. It really depends on the individual game. Take Arkham City for example, I felt they added too much to the combat and I constantly found myself doing the wrong thing at the wrong time because I've forgotten the exact specific way to deal with the specific enemy using the specific gadget/combo required. Likewise the city area, though much larger than the asylum feels less interesting, less refinied and less meaningful.

And on the flipside their is Crysis 2 which I felt was way too simplified and streamlined compared to the original game which had a certain scope and depth to its design and systems I had far more fun with.
 

Gatx

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Jul 7, 2011
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How does he know they're hypocrites? Not all hardcore gamers like or even respect the Mario franchise. Maybe they didn't grow up playing those simple 8-bit games. Just because it helped the industry doesn't mean every gamer likes Mario, maybe some hardcore gamers grew up with RPGs and 4x strategy games or something, so then they wouldn't be hypocrites exactly. But then again the likelihood of this being even partially the case is fairly small.
 

Fearzone

Boyz! Boyz! Boyz!
Dec 3, 2008
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Salvadore Dali once said: the first person who paints clocks melting from a tree is a genius, the second person is probably an idiot.

Pong pushed the medium forward, then Lunar Lander, then Space Invaders and Asteroids pushed the medium forward beyond that, then Donkey Kong and Pac-Man, and then Street Fighter started doing it's thing. Each of these were advances of video gaming.

So if somebody took Pac-Man but rendered Pac-Man in 3D as a colorful seal eating glistening fish on the beach while sea monsters with kelp hair chased him amid a maze of waterfalls and sand castles with surprisingly good texture and particle effects, and put that on an iOS device with mediocre touch-screen controls, should we be impressed with how great that is?

If Infinity Blade is graphics demo for the iOS with shallow gameplay added as an afterthought because it has to be there, I'd say the so-called hardcore gamers are showing good discretion.
 

Sylveria

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Nov 15, 2009
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If only Infinity Blade was given the opportunity for a proper console release. I'd love to see what the minds behind that game could do to it with more versatile hardware.

I don't have any particular issue with iOS stuff, just the hipsters that use Apple products. I imagine a lot of the vitriol comes from the fear that eventually all gaming may turn into iPhone level gaming because of the better cost:profit ratio. The "real" gaming area has it's fair share of shovelware (CoD and the EA sports stuff being the most notable) but there's a lot more garbage on the iOS which is still pulling decent profits at far lower cost.

The only time I've put on my "hardcore" hat is talking about WoW when they started retooling the game for a minimum effort = maximum reward system to cater to the "casuals". The result of that is what you see in WoW now; a game that is completely broken, because it's trying to please everyone, with effectively nothing to do most of the day. You raid maybe twice a week, and the rest of the time you either don't play or run dailies. Ironically enough, few people actually "play" casually, they still put in tonnes of time each week, but instead of working on raid content, they just sorta twiddle about.

Of course, WoW still has its "Hardcores" but really they're putting in far more time than most people and not getting much for it when the day is said and done. But, they still get to swing their epeens, and that's all that matters to them.