Jimquisition: I'm Going To Murder Your Children

[tardcore]

Do you know how many times I've had to dish a suspension for threatening or bullying on this site? Do you know how many people report posts in which a user is threatening, insulting or telling someone to commit suicide? Very often, its just one person. It doesn't matter if the thread has over 100 views, only one person will report a post like that. I wouldn't be sitting on this goddamn high horse if I didn't know how often it happens on this very site and its ridiculous, especially in the feminism and transgender threads.

Long story short. I'm sick of everyone's passive nature to let aggressive posts go unreported, here and on other sites. Gamers need to set a precedent to not only ignore users who lash out at developers and other gamers, but should be willing to report them.

Hey you know what, we both deplore spoiled narrow-minded creeps who think phrases like "Die in a fire" are witty or acceptable methods of communication. If I see that kind of behavior in games or in a community such as this I do report them.

Moot point as far as this argument goes, as saying "Don't lump me in with the crazies" is not the same as "Let's just ignore the crazies." Thanks for spuriously implying that is what any of us who are annoyed that Jim let these idiots hijack his entire weekly video so he could scream at them, are saying. I like Jim and like his videos, but sitting there and watching him spend the entire time lambasting a group of assholes I'm not a member of, or who aren't the kind of people who would listen to his arguments in the first place is a bit hard to take. Those of us saying that we feel his time could have been better spent in a more positive manner does not mean we in any way condone people threatening violence against someone they don't like. And if you look through the entire thread you'll notice a trend that those of us who are asking that a more fair and balanced approach be taken instead of just blaming and shaming an entire gaming community, are being treated like criminals, or in your own depiction, apathetics.

Yeah that's brilliant. As if there isn't enough trouble with the malcontents who are sending death threats to innocent individuals, now we have people like Jim and yourself inciting the community to judge and turn on any members you feel just aren't as concerned over the issue as they should be.

then I really have to start questioning YOUR sanity.

You should. I work full time, go to school full time, tutor on my days off and still volunteer my time here. But hey, I got my happy pills and vodka to keep me going, so I really don't care if you think I'm insane. Normal is overrated anyways.

No sarcasm intended, good for you. However if moderating these boards makes you as upset as you sound about it (being sick of seeing aberrant behavior) then maybe burdening yourself with more things to worry about is a bad idea, as it sounds like you have a pretty full plate already.

I work in a high stress job myself and spend most of my week seeing what happens when implied violence becomes very real violence and trying my best to help deal with the aftermath. Sadly quite often my best isn't good enough. When I get time away I like to spend it playing games or chatting on web forums, so when I see individuals rabbiting on about how septic and terrible the community surrounding my hobbies are without what I feel is proper justification or proportion, it tends to annoy me. Especially so when I feel there are quite a bit of positive aspects about these hobbies, yet no one seems to ever want to discuss them. Which I find more than a bit depressing.

The fact I'm arguing this point with someone with a blue moderator name is seriously making me rethink bothering to patronize this website.

Oh sorry, I forgot, the blue name means I have to be a robot who issues citation warnings.

Oh not at all, I'm just saying as a moderator you should set an example and in this instance I feel you let your emotions override your judgement.

 

[Rellik San]

For those complaining about Jim generalising, the principle is the same as when your in a bar and the staff tell you and your friends who are acting like dicks that if you keep acting like dicks you're all out, yes even you who wasn't being dickish, but instead your dickish friends are threatening the life of the bar staff because the head on their beer was too frothy and rather then asking for a top up politely decided to abuse the poor minimum wage sod who's only trying to keep a roof over his head and food in his fridge. The idea then being the majority will police the minority, because you like this bar, it's the only bar that still reliably plays good music from the nineties and the beer is myriad and kept well and sold at a reasonable price.

See what Jim's trying to do now?

So all in all, a good episode.

 

[Saltyk]

~Hepler did not quit BECAUSE of the threats. Even Jim said that in the video. So what you are stating that I took away from the video (amazing that you know what I took away from the video better than I do) is untrue.

That's what she says. Doesn't make it true. It's as if someone got punched in a face completely unjustly and unfairly, and ran away yelling "no, that's totally not because I got punched, I just need to be somewhere!"

We can only go by her words or not. Considering that most of the abuse happened a while ago, I don't think it's the cause of her leaving. Certainly wouldn't help, but I don't think it's the one and only cause.

THERE IS NO EXCUSE FOR DEATH THREATS TOWARDS ANYONE. PERIOD.​

There's only one answer to that.

Spoiler

Unless, of course, one who've been threatened is a murderer himself.

It's just sad that such things have to be said. Whether they should be obvious or not.

It's equally sad to feel that I need to explain that I don't think pointing a gun at an attacker and screaming "I'll kill you, if you come any closer" is not the same thing. I wouldn't stop and chide the person for death threats. That's not even the same topic as threatening to kill someone's children on the way to school.

And yes, such things are not unique to gaming culture. I've heard that "Animal Rights Activists" have threatened the lives of Ted Nugent's children. That doesn't make threatening the lives of a game programer or anyone else okay.

 

[Vicioussama]

What the fuck is wrong with some people. Sending threats like that to her... I hope they got legal trouble on their ass. Scare the little shits.

 

[ninjaRiv]

I think, from a journalists point of view, this wasn't Jim's best piece. It wasn't as well researched as it should have been. There was also a little bit of contradiction in there.

And he really shouldn't lump everyone together by saying it's gamers who make him sick and gamers are responsible for what has happened. All that's going to do is cause more resentment in the community (as evidenced in this thread). Let's not count those people as gamers. Let's call them... Shitflecks. They play games but they're not part of the gamer community. Kind of like... shit in a pool. Sure, it's swimming in the pool but it's not a fellow swimmer. At the same time, you wouldn't just leave it there, right? You'd report it. Maddawg mentioned that bullying and abusive posts often only get one report? That's the same as 20 people swimming and only one person thinks a floating turd ruins their time. I'm pretty sure it's our responsibility to do away with people who abuse, threaten and insult. Report them AND ignore them. Just sitting there thinking "Lol this is the internet" and trying to just leave them to it is not going to make our experience as gamers any better. It'll only make it worse.

Come on, guys, we can do this!

 

[mirasiel]

A deal? Sounds more like a dealdo to me.

 

[Hellfireboy]

As much as we would like to think so, the solution to this problem doesn't rest with the community. You can't suddenly enlighten someone on a message board to realize that they are an asshole and getting into a back and forth with a troll is like beating your head against a wall and expecting it to fall. The solution rests with attentive moderators, IT security and law enforcement if deemed necessary. The power exercised by a troll is directly related to whether or not the target even reads the posts and Hepler didn't even know about these threats until she was shown them by BioWare's IT security people. Being shown a threat by a security person has a very different psychological effect than finding it on your own since in the former case you feel comforted by the fact that someone is already on it who has your interests in mind. This mitigates the effect of the threat.

There is another problem in that journalist have a tendency to fall into a post hoc fallacy when looking at things like this. In other words, A happened then B happened therefore A caused B. In this case, Hepler received death threats against her children then Hepler left BioWare therefore Hepler receiving death threats against her children caused Hepler to leave BioWare. This takes no other variables into account nor do they attempt to examine whether or not any other variables even exist. "Hepler Leaves BioWare Due to Death Threats," is a much sexier headline than, "Hepler Leaves BioWare to Write a Textbook," even though the later is in fact the truth.

There is also the habit of taking the minority event and making it the center of the story. "Journalist Writes Controversial Theory on Gaming - Receives Death Threats," catches the eye much quicker than, "Journalist Writes Controversial Theory on Gaming - Receives Well Thought Out Arguments Invalidating Central Premise," even though the later may in fact be the majority event.

 

[Slash2x]

WHY IS THIS EVEN A THING!!!!!!!!!!?????????? We keep a kid in jail FOR MONTHS over some stupid crap said in jest as a reference to him being crazy (the LoL Guy) but these morons are not in jail after MAKING A SPECIFIC THREAT TO MURDER A PERSONS CHILDREN!!!! That's it

 

[Doug]

THERE IS NO EXCUSE FOR DEATH THREATS TOWARDS ANYONE. PERIOD.​

There's only one answer to that.

Spoiler

Unless, of course, one who've been threatened is a murderer himself.

And yet, people -still- do it. So, apparently, it's not just "No shit sherlock" to some people. Especially given this is not the first time its happened lately.

As Jim says, why would talented people -want- to work in the game industry if the audience is like this. And I know, its only a 'vocal minority', but they reflect on us as a whole, so we need to sort it out if we don't want to be seen as a bunch of entitled trolling idiots by the world in general.

 

[nuttshell]

THERE IS NO EXCUSE FOR DEATH THREATS TOWARDS ANYONE...Unless, of course, one who've been threatened is a murderer himself.

Wow there, Sherlock. An eye for an eye? Don't go there.

 

[Carnagath]

I'm Going To Murder Your Children

If your first response to a game creator doing something you dislike is to get personal with them and threaten their families, you waive any righteousness you might have had. Seems like a no-brainer ... yet so few of us seem to have brains.

Watch Video

Great video, it's messed up how people react over a pass-time activity. People need to grow up.

One small correction though, her quitting Bioware wasn't a direct result of the harassment she received, she quit because she is going to be making a text book about narrative design and doing other game related freelance work. Game news outlets have kind of run away with the story out of context.

http://www.polygon.com/2013/8/15/4622252/plague-of-game-dev-harassment-erodes-industry-spurs-support-groups

DETAILS, DETAILS I SAY. Why not create a shitstorm out of one complete jerkoff who quit after provoking and welcoming every single word of abuse he got, and a writer who quit for completely unrelated reasons? MORE VIEWWWWWWS! MORE VIEWWWWWWWWWWWWWS!!!

 

[Ishal]

Some assholes somehow abuse someone that is linked to the persons status in the gaming culture (be it a dev, a professional player or just a community person) and you either get a horde of people finding reasons tho why we should stop talking about it (and in the end hindering any kind of progress to better the issue and thus defending the attacker) or finding reasons to why it was the victims fault or how we totally misrepresent the issue. Of course they assure that 'I don't want to defend those' but they still do exactly that.

Yes, it is unfortunate but again its hardly only gamers that do this.

"Hey, let me misquote Hepler and twist it in a way that she called us all VIRGINS! LETS LYNCH HER!!!"

Again, unfortunate but I still don't believe the majority go gamers are like this, if that were the case we'd see more cases like this and devs wouldn't make games anymore. We'd see more and more people leaving the industry.

"Hey, that one time before Fez Phil Fish tweeted something mildly suggestive, look what an ass he is, HE IS SUCH A BASTARD THAT DESRVES ALL OF THIS!"

Your time could be spent elsewhere rather than wasting it on Blowfish. I direct you to post #118 to see my views on the man and the incident.

And this are some of the recent examples. I always love to see the trivialisations. And I try to remove myself as part of the gamer culture. It seems I can manage it rather well because I lack the needed hate to participate in either defending or attacking everyone who may be slightly suggestive or have a somewhat different opinion than the gaming hivemind has.

Hyperbole. There is no gaming hivemind. There are like minded individuals who gather in places to agree on things and sometimes to do reprehensible acts, like we are discussing here. It sucks, and it is a problem. But it is in no way the whole of the culture. You can't use comments like what that mod said here...

Edit: May I direct you to post number 376?

... and generalize all gamers. If you want to remove yourself from it, fine. But there is no hivemind, no ultra presence that defines all gamers. Some need to speak out more against this behavior, and I don't know what that mod is talking about when he says there are death threats all the time. I don't see them. That could mean one of two things. One, he and his companions are doing their jobs well so these people who threaten others are banned before I notice. Or two, I don't frequent the forums where they occur (I stay out of R&P). This is the effect of anonymity and venue to express opinions without fear of repercussions. It is a unique beast not easily comparable to other societal problems. I understand where all the hate and vitriol comes from, I get it. Gaming is the scapegoat for societies problems with media. It's almost always under fire and its been that way for a long time. Things are starting to get better now, but the psychosis of always being on the defensive is still very much in the minds of many gamers. It's just the reality. However, just because I understand it in no way excuses it. I flag bad posts all the time, its the way we keep these forums clean and habitable for the MANY gamers who aren't like the bad ones being discussed here. I'll say it again, stop generalizing.

 

[Aardvaarkman]

If you a developer, I would give this advice for you to follow, now repeat after me. "I am armed, I am prepared to defend myself and my family. I have hired armed security for PAX (or whatever convention I went to). It did not need to come to me feeling the need to be armed.

That would be a silly statement, because it is entirely unbelievable, and any sane convention like PAX does not allow firearms through the door. Who would go to a convention that allowed armed people to walk around?

The other reason it is silly is because of completely unnecessary escalation.

 

[Something Amyss]

"Hey, that one time before Fez Phil Fish tweeted something mildly suggestive, look what an ass he is, HE IS SUCH A BASTARD THAT DESRVES ALL OF THIS!"

Of course, it wasn't just once, wasn't "mildly suggestive," and there's nothing to suggest equivalence to the other examples given here.

It really does seem like a lot of people are trying to do mental backflips to put Fish in the same category. I'm not saying everyone's doing it; see below. But, if anything, Fish told a dude to kill himself. If we're being fair and equivalent, shouldn't Phil be getting the kind of shit we give any other pathetic little bully on the internet? Would anyone be playing the victim card on him if he was one of us who had told Hepler to kill herself? No?

We really shouldn't use Phil Fish as an example. The dude is caustic and told someone to kill himself[footnote]Futurama quote or not[/footnote]. Since this is the kind of behaviour we're supposed to not be tolerating from the gaming community, let's....Not tolerate it.

And more to the point, I think using him as an example hurts the overall message. Hepler got threats against her kids. Vall of Duty's VanWilder got death threats. Some other indie guy actually reported that threats were made against his daughter. Fish told someone to kill themselves.

Fish was a bully who didn't like it when people fired back.


I'll finish this by pointing out that if Fish received death threats, that's a different story and it shouldn't happen. I looked and didn't find anything immediately online demonstrating that, and I've made like fifty posts on the matter without a single correction. I feel fairly safe in the notion that he wasn't threatened or, if he was, he's playing it uncharacteristically close to the chest. In fact, I DID find a tweet from Fish saying that he got called a "hipster ******" every day, but had never received death threats.

To Recap: Hepler got threats for writing for games.

VanHelsing got threats for announcing patch details for Call of Duty.

Other indie guy (I can't find the story on google right now) got threats for making an indie game.

Fish didn't get death threats despite being hostile from the start and told someone to kill himself.

I was not commenting on whether Fish deserved it or not. I was purely responding to the claim that Jim only did this episode because it was a woman who was being harassed. The fact that Jim did a very similar episode in regards to Fish shows that gender was not the motivation.

Which is indeed a fair assessment. I don't know where people got the idea that this was solely a gender issue came from, or that Jim (or anyone else) thinks it's okay when it happens to guys. I still think the Fish example is a bad one, but clearly Jim's not concerned with just women. And Vonderhaaf got a similar appalled response from The Escapist and other communities. Not enough of one, I must say, but still.

we're not "White Knighting" for Hepler.

We're sick of this crap in general.

I think, from a journalists point of view, this wasn't Jim's best piece. It wasn't as well researched as it should have been. There was also a little bit of contradiction in there.

And he really shouldn't lump everyone together by saying it's gamers who make him sick and gamers are responsible for what has happened. All that's going to do is cause more resentment in the community (as evidenced in this thread). Let's not count those people as gamers. Let's call them... Shitflecks. They play games but they're not part of the gamer community. Kind of like... shit in a pool. Sure, it's swimming in the pool but it's not a fellow swimmer. At the same time, you wouldn't just leave it there, right? You'd report it. Maddawg mentioned that bullying and abusive posts often only get one report? That's the same as 20 people swimming and only one person thinks a floating turd ruins their time. I'm pretty sure it's our responsibility to do away with people who abuse, threaten and insult. Report them AND ignore them. Just sitting there thinking "Lol this is the internet" and trying to just leave them to it is not going to make our experience as gamers any better. It'll only make it worse.

Come on, guys, we can do this!

I'll just point out that bullying relies on normalising behaviour. The reason this happens is because we do allow it. The way we stop this behaviour is by making it socially unacceptable. And marking bullies is a decent start.

"It's the internet" and "nothing can be done" are both self-fulfilling prophecies.

 

[Something Amyss]

If you a developer, I would give this advice for you to follow, now repeat after me. "I am armed, I am prepared to defend myself and my family. I have hired armed security for PAX (or whatever convention I went to). It did not need to come to me feeling the need to be armed.

That would be a silly statement, because it is entirely unbelievable, and any sane convention like PAX does not allow firearms through the door.

The other reason it is silly is because of completely unnecessary escalation.

This is the internet. Unnecessary escalation is what we do best.

On the flip side, if this sort of crap continues, people will feel the need to defend themselves. Rational or not, I wouldn't be surprised to see more devs arming themselves.

I also wouldn't be surprised to see some poor fan shot in the next five years because paranoia breeds stupidity, but still.

 

[magicmonkeybars]

Wow thanks for a great video !
Maybe we can have more of these kind of valuable insights into video game culture next week.
Sure have a strangest feeling of deja vu though.
It's so disturbing how video games make people behave in this manner, maybe there should be stricter regulations put in place to ensure a healthier environment for people to work in.
Seems like it's not so much a matter of genre but just video games in general that are the cause of all this abuse.
Maybe a special tax on video games will limit the effects of their content by limiting the audience's consumption or would limiting the content be a happier solution so that people can continue to afford to purchase healthy video game content in the same volume.
Thanks again for this eye opening video.

 

[JarinArenos]

Some stupid kid got arrested for a facebook post. Is the only reason that happened because the cops knew where to find him? Is it just too damn hard for cops to track down someone posting on a forum? Even with publically-available IP data, I can track down someone pretty close, and getting an address is as simple as a police request to the ISP (okay, probably warrant required, but still). Online threats need to start being treated like offline ones.