Jimquisition: Jimquisition Awards 2013 - The Last of Us

[M920CAIN]

What makes the game good is the two characters, the relationship of father who misses his daughter and girl who he threats like the daughter he lost and misses.

That's part of the story. I'm not sure why you think that the characters in a story are somehow separate from the story. Perhaps you are thinking of "plot" when you say "story"?

Because they are separate from the story? Call it plot or story or whatever you wish, the father and daughter is a theme, the story is about surviving a zombie apocalypse. The father and daughter relationship has nothing to do with the zombie apocalypse. The zombie apocalypse was not even needed to make it a great game, it's only there because gamers need something to shoot at. Those 2 characters could be put in an entire different situation that has nothing to do with zombies and the relationship would still make sense. I'm not seeing the lasting value, but maybe this is my problem I admit. I'm a sucker for awesome stories in games and this game lacked it. The main characters were awesome, the rest, not so much.

 

[Raggedstar]

I'm not even talking about all of that.
Last of Us was originally a Jak game, but sometime during development they went "Nah" and they gutted everything Jak and LoU was the end result.

Did you read the specifics in that Jak game though? From what I've heard, nothing of value was lost in axing it. They were originally planning a darker, more realistic reboot with the characters. Jak was less elf-like and more human (and some concept art had his hair spiked, others dreads) and Daxter was more animalistic and mute. In October, during a presentation about TLOU, they showed off some concept art of Daxter (and while they were cute, I don't want to play in a world where Daxter can't speak). They canceled it because they didn't feel that was the kind of game the fans wanted (and considering they did a "dark reboot" with Jak 2 that largely divides fans even today, I think that was a good call). They announced this about the time the Jak and Daxter collection was released last year (The Escapist has an article about that, but didn't mention the details of the game).

After Lost Frontier, a Jak game by Naughty Dog would've sold like gangbusters regardless if it wasn't good (and even if the original creators have long since left). Everyone would've come out of the woodwork to play it, and might've got a game that they didn't ask for. Making TLOU was probably the less-greedy move on their part, and we still got a game many consider GOTY. I love Jak and Daxter, and I admitted to having a lot of bitterness towards this and Uncharted because Naughty Dog is just so damn good at making platformers. But it didn't take long for TLOU to win me over (still won't touch Uncharted though, as it brings me nothing). I don't want anyone doing anything with the IP unless they're damn sure they can deliver. They still care about the franchise (in that TLOU behind the scenes video, they even dedicated a segment to show an awesome Jak cosplayer and a huge Jak 2 statue in the office), and they didn't eliminate the possibility of trying again sometime in the future.

 

[Aardvaarkman]

Because they are separate from the story?

No, they aren't. They're integral to the story - they are at the very heart of it. The story is about them.

Call it plot or story or whatever you wish, the father and daughter is a theme, the story is about surviving a zombie apocalypse.

The father and daughter are not a "theme" - they are central characters in the story. The "zombie apocalypse" is the setting of the story, and it's not even a "zombie apocalypse" - it's a fungal outbreak. I wonder if you've even played this game.

The father and daughter relationship has nothing to do with the zombie apocalypse.

Yeah, so what? They are characters caught up in these events. How does that not make them part of the story?

You seem to be projecting an entirely different story than the one that was told. The story is about Joel and Ellie. I'm not sure why you think it is all about "zombie apocalypse" - the story is primarily about Joel, and his relationship with Ellie.

The zombie apocalypse was not even needed to make it a great game,

That could be said about anything. The Wire did not have to be about the drug trade and law enforcement in Baltimore, but it was. Does it somehow diminish The Wire that it could have been in another setting and have different characters than it did?

Those 2 characters could be put in an entire different situation that has nothing to do with zombies and the relationship would still make sense.

So... your problem is that you don't like zombies?

How about if the story took place in a suburban book club, where the characters expressed their relationship via extensive discussion of Moby DIck - would that be a better game?

 

[Strazdas]

What do you mean you are not a fan of Uncharted? In Podtoid episode 162 You claim otherwise!

 

[M920CAIN]

Because they are separate from the story?

No, they aren't. They're integral to the story - they are at the very heart of it. The story is about them.

Call it plot or story or whatever you wish, the father and daughter is a theme, the story is about surviving a zombie apocalypse.

The father and daughter are not a "theme" - they are central characters in the story. The "zombie apocalypse" is the setting of the story, and it's not even a "zombie apocalypse" - it's a fungal outbreak. I wonder if you've even played this game.

The father and daughter relationship has nothing to do with the zombie apocalypse.

Yeah, so what? They are characters caught up in these events. How does that not make them part of the story?

You seem to be projecting an entirely different story than the one that was told. The story is about Joel and Ellie. I'm not sure why you think it is all about "zombie apocalypse" - the story is primarily about Joel, and his relationship with Ellie.

The zombie apocalypse was not even needed to make it a great game,

That could be said about anything. The Wire did not have to be about the drug trade and law enforcement in Baltimore, but it was. Does it somehow diminish The Wire that it could have been in another setting and have different characters than it did?

Those 2 characters could be put in an entire different situation that has nothing to do with zombies and the relationship would still make sense.

So... your problem is that you don't like zombies?

How about if the story took place in a suburban book club, where the characters expressed their relationship via extensive discussion of Moby DIck - would that be a better game?

Like I said, call it whatever you like, it's the equivalent of a zombie apocalypse however you dice it. It's dressed up as a "fungal thingy" as you want to call it. It's not that I don't like zombie, hey wait.. right, I don't like zombies, that's why I shoot them and that's why you shoot them. It's not about liking/disliking zombies.

You gave a boring setting with that Moby Dick thing to make your argument. You can give a cool setting and also disprove the argument just as easily. The fact is the execution of the character relationship is done very well, the rest of the story is executed pretty poorly, fungal or no fungal, zombie or no zombie. What makes the characters central to the "plot"/"story"? the fact that Ellie is some kind of " Deus Ex machina " to stop the infestation. Please, that's cliche, far fetched, not needed to draw emotions from empathetic players.

But I'll stop here, I understand you like the game very much and wish to defend it as much as you can, so I won't bash it. You have a right to like what you like and I can respect that.

 

[Aardvaarkman]

But I'll stop here, I understand you like the game very much and wish to defend it as much as you can, so I won't bash it. You have a right to like what you like and I can respect that.

It has nothing to do with liking the game. I'd have the same response to comments about a game I didn't like.

No matter which way you slice it, the protagonists of a story are not a "theme" - they are the characters. This is about literary criticism and using the proper terms as much as anything. Like my responses to the guy who apparently doesn't understand what "cinematic" means.

I'd be perfectly fine with your criticism if you used appropriate terms. And "theme" is not an appropriate term for central characters of a story. Framing an argument with improper terms makes it impossible to have a meaningful discussion.

Also, on the zombie thing, they are zombie-like, but that doesn't make them zombies. And ultimately, the story is about the humans, not the zombies. It's the humans who really screw everything up. So, I think you have things backwards - if anything's a "theme" or a "backdrop" - it's the "zombies" - the story really isn't about them.

What makes the characters central to the "plot"/"story"? the fact that Ellie is some kind of " Deus Ex machina " to stop the infestation.

Uh, yeah. If you're going to write a book/movie/game about the Kenedy assassination, do you feature characters from some random town in India, or do you make it about the people who were involved in the assassination?

Please, that's cliche, far fetched, not needed to draw emotions from empathetic players.

Maybe - but complaining about "far fetched" and "cliche" in video games? Holy hell - the vast majority of things that happen in video games are completely unrealistic and implausible.

 

[M920CAIN]

But I'll stop here, I understand you like the game very much and wish to defend it as much as you can, so I won't bash it. You have a right to like what you like and I can respect that.

It has nothing to do with liking the game. I'd have the same response to comments about a game I didn't like.

No matter which way you slice it, the protagonists of a story are not a "theme" - they are the characters. This is about literary criticism and using the proper terms as much as anything. Like my responses to the guy who apparently doesn't understand what "cinematic" means.

I'd be perfectly fine with your criticism if you used appropriate terms. And "theme" is not an appropriate term for central characters of a story. Framing an argument with improper terms makes it impossible to have a meaningful discussion.

Also, on the zombie thing, they are zombie-like, but that doesn't make them zombies. And ultimately, the story is about the humans, not the zombies. It's the humans who really screw everything up. So, I think you have things backwards - if anything's a "theme" or a "backdrop" - it's the "zombies" - the story really isn't about them.

What makes the characters central to the "plot"/"story"? the fact that Ellie is some kind of " Deus Ex machina " to stop the infestation.

Uh, yeah. If you're going to write a book/movie/game about the Kenedy assassination, do you feature characters from some random town in India, or do you make it about the people who were involved in the assassination?

Please, that's cliche, far fetched, not needed to draw emotions from empathetic players.

Maybe - but complaining about "far fetched" and "cliche" in video games? Holy hell - the vast majority of things that happen in video games are completely unrealistic and implausible.

OK, Earnest Hemingway. I got the point. Have your literary-zombie-not-about-zombie-about-humans-fungal-literary-art. I don't need to prove anything or defend anything. The game is out there for people to see and judge for tehmselves (I hope you're not going to correct grammar now) in addition to insulting my intelligence due to improper use of terms. If it's not meaningful conversation, why bother to quote me? I wouldn't. (ergo hint)

 

[WarpZone]

Jimquisition Awards 2013 - The Last of Us

Hopefully this one will "click" with you.

Watch Video

I didn't say the ending was wrong. What I said was that the game reviewers who played the game before it came out and then called the game as a whole "a good game about being a dad" are horrible human beings, either because they honestly identify with this douchebag character and contrived bullshit story, or because they knowingly lied in a video game review, and that I did not discover this fact until I saw the ending.

When I spoke out against Miracle of Sound's song, perplexingly titled "the best of us," people took pains to assure me it was the second one, and that I just wasn't imagining enough metaphors to make sense out of the song's lyrics.

The Worst of Us should not be held up as a positive example of parenting. Ever. By anyone. Even accidentally.

 

[Flutterguy]

I thought the game was a bit too over-rated. By the time I played it i was expecting much more then what it delivered.

It had me enthralled until the end of the into sequence where 2 minutes of crying for characters I knew little to nothing about just had me laughing uncontrollably. Too much human fighting too, I understand it is hard to make an engaging story about zombies without great character development/representation to pull you through and adding human antagonists is cheaper then great writers or original ideas...

 

[Crazycat690]

TLoU is my game of the year, so I agree with what he says. Loved how Joel was actually so brutal, I mean... I hope I'm not spoiling for anyone (if you read past this, be warned) but when those cannibals took Ellie, when he interrogated those two guys it hit me what that guy was actually capable of.