Jimquisition: Jimquisition Awards 2013 - The Last of Us

Jimothy Sterling

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Please be Metro Last Light tommorow.Please be Metro last light tommorow. Oh, who am I kidding. Of course it won't be.
 

Raggedstar

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I don't know if it counts, but didn't Jim gives The Stanley Parable a 10/10 on Destructoid? More than he gave Bioshock Infinite AND The Last Of Us? That's my guess for his last one (and it deserves it).

Anyways, no complaints with the list so far (though I'm not a mobile gamer, so I can't talk for that fishing game). The Last of Us definitely was one of the best games this year to me, even if it's not my #1 (which at this point of time might be Rayman Legends but I still have a few on my "to play" list like Tomb Raider, Blood Dragon, Gone Home, and I have yet to finish Pokemon X). Total agreement with all Jim said here.
 

Brainplant

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A bit of a missed opportunity to put The Last Of Us last

Oh well, I agree with the choice either way
 

1nfinite_Cros5

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I think the number 1 game is going to be The Stanley Parable, if Jim's review of it is anything to go by. [http://www.destructoid.com/review-the-stanley-parable-263731.phtml]
 

Casual Shinji

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So much praise for The Last of Us from critics, yet never a syllable uttered regarding the stunning musical score. :'(

I'm always a bit sad to see this part of the game overlooked so much, because for me the game would probably be 30% less effective without it. It's that good. And that while it's the guy's first video game soundtrack.
 

Jimothy Sterling

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You missed the opportunity to have this game as your last entry, "the last of us", get it? YOU MISSED IT, JIM O<

Anyhoo, I concur. The ending to The Last of Us is absolutely beautiful because even if you don't want it to end there, you know it has to end there and rightfully so.
 

Legion

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Agreed with everything you said about The Last of Us. It was almost a perfect game from where I am standing. The final level was a little too shooty perhaps, but to be fair given it being the climax, and where it was set, it did fit within the game overall.
 

Mikeyfell

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It sucks a lot of the mystery and intrigue out of the videos when the name of the game that won is in the title of the video.

And I still can't believe people complain about the ending. It was amazing, the ending was so good I immediately forgot about all the petty little annoyances in the gameplay. The story told in Last of Us was incredible and worth an award in and of it's self.

And then on my second playthrough I... remembered all the petty little annoyances in the gameplay... And then I stopped playing...

[sub]Paper's Please! Paper's Please! Paper's Please! Paper's Please![/sub]
 

DataSnake

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1nfinite_Cros5 said:
I think the number 1 game is going to be The Stanley Parable, if Jim's review of it is anything to go by. [http://www.destructoid.com/review-the-stanley-parable-263731.phtml]
I dunno, he seemed pretty excited [http://www.destructoid.com/review-saints-row-iv-259412.phtml] about Saints Row IV
 

The_Darkness

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Legion said:
Agreed with everything you said about The Last of Us. It was almost a perfect game from where I am standing. The final level was a little too shooty perhaps, but to be fair given it being the climax, and where it was set, it did fit within the game overall.

I find myself wanting to know what the intro music to these awards are, anybody know? The credits at the end have the normal song listed, but not this one.
It's shown on the very last few seconds of each video. Demigod by Cryogenic Echelon. I have a Youtube video of the song playing in the background as I type this...
 

Legion

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The_Darkness said:
Legion said:
Agreed with everything you said about The Last of Us. It was almost a perfect game from where I am standing. The final level was a little too shooty perhaps, but to be fair given it being the climax, and where it was set, it did fit within the game overall.

I find myself wanting to know what the intro music to these awards are, anybody know? The credits at the end have the normal song listed, but not this one.
It's shown on the very last few seconds of each video. Demigod by Cryogenic Echelon. I have a Youtube video of the song playing in the background as I type this...
Ah, thanks. I assumed it wasn't on there as it wasn't listed with the other song.

EDIT: Can't find it on iTunes or Amazon... but the video uploaded on Youtube has a lot of people thanking Jim for introducing it to them, which is funny.
 

tzimize

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Yeah....it was brilliant. While frustrating at parts, especially early on when your weapons are shit, or when fighting other shooty guys...fuck I cant use a gamepad for aiming...it was a bit annoying, but the story and presentation...brilliant.

A beautiful game that managed to have a decent ending as well. Loved it.
 

Jimothy Sterling

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bringer of illumination said:
"People who don't share my opinions are lying."

Jim.

Stop that, you keep doing it.
Not liking it doesn't make it a bad ending. The ending is thematically in tone with the rest of the game, true to the characters, and beautifully executed.

I'm really looking forward to the prequel DLC for it. I hope it's a meaty experience, and not a 10 dollar thing finished in an hour.
 

Goliath100

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Warning! This is a personal opinion.

I hate The Last of Us, not the game itself, and not the developer (despite the fact I can't stand anything they made in 7th gen). I hate what it represent: The idea that a "great" game can have all it's "great" parts being non-interactive. All the "great" part, they are all cutscene, or an equivalent to a cutscene (aka scripted events). And gameplay is standard shooting mechanics and lazy stealth mechanics. The gameplay is not very good, or in other words: Sterling gave a game award to a movie.

Questions to fans of The Last of us:
1: How do the Mechanics interact with the narrative, specifically the theme or the characters?
2: What is the player arc?
 

franksands

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I think the game is excelent and deserves all the prizes it gets, However, I really didn't like that ending. It does not make sense. It destroys everything you were building to.
 

Erttheking

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You know the sad thing is I don't own a PS3, and while I have been experiencing the game on a friend's PS3, she's been away at college the last few months, we never got to finish it. Maybe we'll have a chance to when she gets back.
 

Sigmund Av Volsung

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I still think that the ending wouldn't affect me that much (I looked it up, but that's not the point I am making, this is ->) nihilistic media has desensitized me slightly to such endings, also TLoS might've stood out to me more if it wasn't so constantly nihilistic, even in The Walking Dead there were moments of peace, quiet, even humour sometimes, but TLoS just seems like a long, continous slog of negativity*

Nonetheless, I respect Jim's decision as these things are supposed to be highly subjective, so I respect his decisions to stand by his choices.

*[small]At least based on the walkthroughs I have watched so far of it(in terms of theme, not ending)[/small]

[small]It's all rendered moot though, the true GoTYs for 2013 are Octodad: Dadliest Catch and Amazing Frog[/small]
 

PunkRex

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I'm gonna guess Saints Row for your last one maybe... possibly GTA... wow, I really didn't play much outside my 3DS this year so, I don't have a clue really.
 

Jimothy Sterling

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Mcoffey said:
bringer of illumination said:
"People who don't share my opinions are lying."

Jim.

Stop that, you keep doing it.
Not liking it doesn't make it a bad ending. The ending is thematically in tone with the rest of the game, true to the characters, and beautifully executed.

I'm really looking forward to the prequel DLC for it. I hope it's a meaty experience, and not a 10 dollar thing finished in an hour.
I haven't played the game, nor been spoiled for the ending, I have precisely zero opinion about it or the game as a whole.

The only thing I do know, is that if you have to resort to calling people who don't like what you like liars, then your case is unlikely to be as strong as you think it is.
 

Casual Shinji

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Goliath100 said:
Warning! This is a personal opinion.

I hate The Last of Us, not the game itself, and not the developer (despite the fact I can't stand anything they made in 7th gen). I hate what it represent: The idea that a "great" game can have all it's "great" parts being non-interactive. All the "great" part, they are all cutscene, or an equivalent to a cutscene. And gameplay is standard shooting mechanics and lazy stealth mechanics. The gameplay is not very good, or in other words: Sterling gave a game award to a movie.
That's what the game represents to you then.

Walking around abandoned houses and observing the history that took place, following the story of Ish, the deer hunt. All of those were not cutscenes.
 

Church185

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Akichi Daikashima said:
I still think that the ending wouldn't affect me that much now that I know it, nihilistic media has desensitized me slightly to such endings, also TLoS might've stood out to me more if it wasn't so constantly nihilistic, even in The Walking Dead there were moments of peace, quiet, even humour sometimes, but TLoS just seems like a long, continous slog of negativity*

*[small]At least based on the walkthroughs I have watched so far of it(in terms of theme, not ending)[/small]
Eh, something might have been lost when watching a let's play, but there are a ton of moments throughout the game that are peaceful, sometimes even beautiful in contrast with the hellish things that Ellie and Joel have to go through. I'm not sure how far you got into the game but humor is occasionally used as well. I would site specific examples, but most of them are spoilertastic, so if you want to know PM me and I'll fill you in.
 

Jimothy Sterling

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bringer of illumination said:
Mcoffey said:
bringer of illumination said:
"People who don't share my opinions are lying."

Jim.

Stop that, you keep doing it.
Not liking it doesn't make it a bad ending. The ending is thematically in tone with the rest of the game, true to the characters, and beautifully executed.

I'm really looking forward to the prequel DLC for it. I hope it's a meaty experience, and not a 10 dollar thing finished in an hour.
I haven't played the game, nor been spoiled for the ending, I have precisely zero opinion about it or the game as a whole.

The only thing I do know, is that if you have to resort to calling people who don't like what you like liars, then your case is unlikely to be as strong as you think it is.
He said people who called the ending bad are lying. Disliking it is different.

Dexter had an objectively bad ending because it was inconsistent, schizophrenic, and poorly plotted.

I disliked the ending of Halo 4, but it worked for the game. It wasn't a badly done ending.
 

Sigmund Av Volsung

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Church185 said:
Akichi Daikashima said:
I still think that the ending wouldn't affect me that much now that I know it, nihilistic media has desensitized me slightly to such endings, also TLoS might've stood out to me more if it wasn't so constantly nihilistic, even in The Walking Dead there were moments of peace, quiet, even humour sometimes, but TLoS just seems like a long, continous slog of negativity*

*[small]At least based on the walkthroughs I have watched so far of it(in terms of theme, not ending)[/small]
Eh, something might have been lost when watching a let's play, but there are a ton of moments throughout the game that are peaceful, sometimes even beautiful in contrast with the hellish things that Ellie and Joel have to go through. I'm not sure how far you got into the game but humor is occasionally used as well. I would site specific examples, but most of them are spoilertastic, so if you want to know PM me and I'll fill you in.
Not a let's play, a silent walkthrough, and while yes, the game is sometimes nice, quiet and serene, I still don't think that it weaves in humour or levity as well as it could.

Also, go ahead and PM me about those moments, I am around the bit where:

Their car breaks down in a city (Pittsburough, I think?) of bandits
 

Goliath100

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Casual Shinji said:
Walking around abandoned houses and observing the history that took place, following the story of Ish, the deer hunt. All of those were not cutscenes.
No, they go under "equivalent to cutscene", also known as a scripted event.
 

Casual Shinji

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Goliath100 said:
Casual Shinji said:
Walking around abandoned houses and observing the history that took place, following the story of Ish, the deer hunt. All of those were not cutscenes.
No, they go under "equivalent to cutscene", also known as a scripted event.
How so exactly? Because by that definition, every non-sandbox game is a scripted event. Half-Life 2 and the Silent Hill games are a scrited event "equivalent to cutscene" too then, I guess?
 

Jimothy Sterling

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Such a shame you choose TLOU.

And it seems you lost the battle and you were forced to put spoilers on the title.
 

Goliath100

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Casual Shinji said:
How so exactly? Because by that definition, every non-sandbox game is a scripted event. Half-Life 2 and the Silent Hill games are a scrited event "equivalent to cutscene" too then, I guess?
I don't why they would be any special exception. Why does games? They are both old, and pre-Resident Evil 4.
 

00slash00

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Brilliant story? Apparently Jim has never seen a zombie survival movie because the story was basically just every cliche from a zombie survival story, thrown in to a big bowl and mixed together. Also, mixing stealth and action can be fun...but only when they're done well. The shooting controls were garbage, even after upgrades, and made the action sections extremely frustrating for me to play. Every time I entered a section where use of guns was required, my fun level immediately dropped to zero. It isn't a bad game. The characters were great and when the game stuck to stealth, it was fantastic, but the shooting sections really brought the game down for me and I can't help feeling like the game was extremely overrated
 

Arslan Aladeen

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Flexible game filled with options in combat Jim? Sure, except when the game bends over backwards to try to force you into situations I guess.
 

Pebkio

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This could've been easily been a forty second long video:
15 seconds for the intro
20 seconds for the outro
And 5 seconds for "Yep, it's the the Last of Us"

That way, we could've gotten a defended movie.
---
Also, yeah, not my cup o' tea but I can definitely see why it got this award. Everywhere.
 

Lightknight

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This is absolutely my favorite game of the year. It sticks with me. Something rare for a game to do for so long.

Casual Shinji said:
So much praise for The Last of Us from critics, yet never a syllable uttered regarding the stunning musical score. :'(

I'm always a bit sad to see this part of the game overlooked so much, because for me the game would probably be 30% less effective without it. It's that good. And that while it's the guy's first video game soundtrack.
Now that you mention it, it was a great score.
 

Smurf McSmurfington

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Hm... my final exam for this year is tomorrow (mathematics). And so is the final Jimquisition game of the year award video.
Coincidence?
I THINK NOT!
 

Jimothy Sterling

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Goliath100 said:
Warning! This is a personal opinion.

I hate The Last of Us, not the game itself, and not the developer (despite the fact I can't stand anything they made in 7th gen). I hate what it represent: The idea that a "great" game can have all it's "great" parts being non-interactive. All the "great" part, they are all cutscene, or an equivalent to a cutscene (aka scripted events). And gameplay is standard shooting mechanics and lazy stealth mechanics. The gameplay is not very good, or in other words: Sterling gave a game award to a movie.

Questions to fans of The Last of us:
1: How do the Mechanics interact with the narrative, specifically the theme or the characters?
2: What is the player arc?
Yeah you are a bit off base there (I'm not sure if you have or haven't played the game).. I loved the narrative, true, a lot of it is given because of the cinematic experience... but I personally thought that one of the biggest strengths of the game was how much the gameplay complemented the tone and the atmosphere of the narrative. How the characters react both coherent with the basic narrative and also with your emerging actions. Jim explains quite well how although the main story is as it is with in the scenarios you are forced to "improvise". There is also a lot of care placed into the characters reflecting the narrative changes: if they have opened up to each other, or started trusting each other the npcs will try to protect Joel ( or ellie ) more effectively Etc.. etc...
While the goal and the cutscenes remain the same, it is the moments between cutscenes that really manage to immerse you int o the universe of the game, make you feel like in the moment to moment gameplay your options matter.

Also, neither the gunplay nor the stealth seem at all lazy to me, the stealth is probably one of the most organic and nerve wrecking designs out there. The inclusion of clickers is profoundly interesting since, they can't see you, but they can hear you, so you can be very close to them without making a sound and they will ignore you. Particularly at the start of the game, it provides a very interesting rock paper scissor mechanic to the combat and exploration.

The gunplay on the other hand, is intentionally frantic, Just like the original resident evil gave you pretty uncomfortable combat systems to crank up the tension. In the last of us, when you have your gun up, and one bullet left... you are almost praying that the bullet will shoot straight and kill that last clicker, so eager to eat your face. It is part of the dynamic. (That is also why a lot of reviewers and fans of the game have recommended to play it in HARD, as it really creates a very tense and visceral experience).

There are many more details like this, that enhance the violence not in the typically glorified manner of many current games, but instead, make you consider if you want to fight at all. Of course I wish some changes could have been made, as not everything is perfect. I would have much liked if enemies would have cowered if wounded or outnumbered. Or if there had been less collectibles breaking the flow off the game, or even if the combat was less "monster closet" based. But all in all it was quite spectacularly executed.

About your last question... I wouldn't want to spoil the character arcs of the game to anyone here.
 

Random Argument Man

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Smurf McSmurfington said:
Hm... my final exam for this year is tomorrow (mathematics). And so is the final Jimquisition game of the year award video.
Coincidence?
I THINK NOT!
You could say that..

It was calculated.

OT: Yeah, The Last of Us is one of my favourite game this year that isn't a bunch of livable misfits stuck in a video game simulation or in a pirate setting.
 

Aardvaarkman

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bringer of illumination said:
"People who don't share my opinions are lying."

Jim.

Stop that, you keep doing it.
Gosh, who would have thought that a person who ends his videos with "Thank God for me!" would ever engage in hyperbolic statements? And, naturally, someone whose commentary is frequently riddled with parody always intends his every statement to be deadly serious.
 

Evonisia

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Predictable choice, but if I'll honest I'd have been disappointed if it wasn't there. I do wonder what the top one will be.

Remember everyone, 10/10 means best there is of it's type. The Stanley Parallel isn't really like the other award winners.
 

Joel Bridge

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Goliath100 said:
Casual Shinji said:
Walking around abandoned houses and observing the history that took place, following the story of Ish, the deer hunt. All of those were not cutscenes.
No, they go under "equivalent to cutscene", also known as a scripted event.
Goliath100 said:
Warning! This is a personal opinion.

I hate The Last of Us, not the game itself, and not the developer (despite the fact I can't stand anything they made in 7th gen). I hate what it represent: The idea that a "great" game can have all it's "great" parts being non-interactive. All the "great" part, they are all cutscene, or an equivalent to a cutscene (aka scripted events). And gameplay is standard shooting mechanics and lazy stealth mechanics. The gameplay is not very good, or in other words: Sterling gave a game award to a movie.

Questions to fans of The Last of us:
1: How do the Mechanics interact with the narrative, specifically the theme or the characters?
2: What is the player arc?
It more of how they blend so easly the mechanics from game make you refect both Joel personaly his brutial, I never play game it metal mind you it not over top or blood but make feel very uncomfortable, because he fight man like he going kill him, it but quite fast swift, everthing narrtative build tell stuble ways thought little dialoge they have stearching for stuff to body language in the cut scene.

2. Pretty man much man find reason to live again beyond his own selfish and needless need to live, doom the world over it.
 

Goliath100

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Joel Bridge said:
1: "Mechanics interact with the narrative" is not the opposite of ludonarrative dissonance (that is sadly a common mistake). Its mechanics as metaphor more than anything less.

2: That is Joel's arc, not the player arc.
Aardvaarkman said:
cinematic

s&#618;n&#618;&#712;mat&#618;k - adjective

1. relating to the cinema.
And that means what?
 

Aardvaarkman

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Goliath100 said:
Aardvaarkman said:
cinematic

s&#618;n&#618;&#712;mat&#618;k - adjective

1. relating to the cinema.
And that means what?
Do you not have access to Google or any dictionaries or something?

cinema

/&#712;s&#618;n&#618;m&#601;,-m&#593;&#720;/ - noun

1.
a. A film or movie.
b. A movie theater.

2.
a. Films or movies considered as a group.
b. The film or movie industry.

3. The art or technique of making films or movies; filmmaking.
 

Aardvaarkman

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Goliath100 said:
Aardvaarkman said:
What you are posting is telling me that "cinematic experience" means cutscenes (in a game context).
That's one area where it usually applies, yes. But it can apply to other parts of games. "Cinematic" in a game context relates to the use of filmmaking techniques for visual story-telling. Just as games also use literary elements and musical elements.

What's so bad about cutscenes, anyway? You seem to be implying that they should not be in games or something.

The definition of "cinematic" is pretty clear, I'm not sure why you feigned ignorance. Although you are interpreting it too narrowly. Outside of cut scenes, cinematic techniques can be used in interactive portions - such as camera angles, lighting and color grading. On the flip-side, not all cut-scenes are necessarily "cinematic."

In other words, simply saying "cinematic = cutscenes" is a vast over-simplification. Every 3D game has some basic ties to cinema - that's why the viewport is usually referred to as the "camera."
 

Guffe

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I think Jims last GotY game will be "The Consuming Shadow"
That or Killzone...
 

Britpoint

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Goliath100 said:
Casual Shinji said:
Walking around abandoned houses and observing the history that took place, following the story of Ish, the deer hunt. All of those were not cutscenes.
No, they go under "equivalent to cutscene", also known as a scripted event.
I'm not anywhere near as big a fan of TLoU as some, but I do think you're being quite unfair to it. These examples don't count as scripted events - except maybe the deer hunt - because you only experience them through player agency. That is, you don't wander around all the empty houses unless you choose to enter them. You don't find the notes telling Ish's story unless you explore and find them. This kind of thing is the very opposite of a scripted event - instead of taking player control away in order to present a story, they hide bits of story all around and trust the player to uncover it themselves.

Yes The Last of Us does have scripted events, and it does have lots of cutscenes which are completely non-interactive. But on top of that, there's a lot of narrative in there that is only found through the player's curiosity and desire to explore.

Now while the stealth mechanics weren't as extensive or smooth to control as Metal Gear, the terrain traversal wasn't as flowing as Uncharted, the combat wasn't as tight as Gears of War, I would argue that all these things are deliberate designs that actually serve this game well. Take the stealth, for example: yes the mechanics are a bit clunky, but this is not a game where you play a nanomachine enhanced super-soldier; you are (most of the time) Joel - some middle aged dude trying to stay alive. There's definitely an argument that this game's systems being a little rough around the edges are a good example of mechanics as metaphor; especially when you consider the tight, smooth controls of Naughty Dog's other major franchise last gen: Uncharted.

The levels are big and allow the player to approach problems in multiple ways. There is a sensibly implemented crafting and upgrade system that gives you plenty of options and allows for some genuine creativity. OK, so it doesn't allow for the kind of freedom that Deus Ex does, but this is a linear stealth/action/survival game. Not all of it's mechanics are great, but there is greatness IN those mechanics when everything comes together just right. To put it down as a 'movie where all the game bits are rubbish' is doing it a massive disservice. The gameplay may not have been quite to your taste, but take a step back and you must surely appreciate it is a finely crafted and well-considered work, even if you ignore the cutscenes and take it on game design alone.
 

Goliath100

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Aardvaarkman said:
By the definitions YOU where coping: cinematic experience=cutscenes. "Cinematic Experience" is just a marketing term, it means nothing. There is no better evidence then the fact that you fail at saying anything with meaning when just asked what it means.
Britpoint said:
Is the meaningful storytelling the letters/notes or finding them?
 

Lightknight

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Smurf McSmurfington said:
Hm... my final exam for this year is tomorrow (mathematics). And so is the final Jimquisition game of the year award video.
Coincidence?
I THINK NOT!
And... if you take the anti-derivative of the derivative you get the original equation but with a C added to it instead of another constant that may or may not have existed in said equation! It all makes sense now!

Also, you can calculate the volume of the space between two lines that are approaching the same asymptote towards the same positive or negative infinity from opposite sides... Surely God is mocking us. MOCKING US I tell you!

In a crazy world like this, it's a good thing we have Jim. Maybe we should thank someone... perhaps? You know, for him being around for our aid.
 

Aardvaarkman

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Goliath100 said:
Aardvaarkman said:
By the definitions YOU where coping: cinematic experience=cutscenes.
No, it was not. That's what you have inferred from the definitions I gave. I gave a fairly thorough explanation about how cinematic elements apply outside of cut scenes. What about that do you disagree with?

Saying that "cinematic" just means cut scenes is pretty ridiculous.

"Cinematic Experience" is just a marketing term, it means nothing.
No, it's not. It has plenty of meaning. I've also rarely seen it used in the marketing of games, it tends to be used more by critics.

There is no better evidence then the fact that you fail at saying anything with meaning when just asked what it means.
What did I say that lacked meaning? Have you ever even studied cinema? Cinema has a rich language that has evolved over the years. The language of cinema is now frequently used in games. How does that concept not have any meaning?

Why are you seemingly unable to argue my points, and just dismiss my argument, rather than actually responding to what I wrote? I answered all of your questions, yet you still haven't answered my one question: what's so bad about cut scenes?
 

Casual Shinji

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Goliath100 said:
Casual Shinji said:
How so exactly? Because by that definition, every non-sandbox game is a scripted event. Half-Life 2 and the Silent Hill games are a scrited event "equivalent to cutscene" too then, I guess?
I don't why they would be any special exception. Why does games? They are both old, and pre-Resident Evil 4.
They're not an exception. They're very good games that are linear and have scripted outcomes. As a matter of fact, so was Resident Evil 4. What was the player arc in those games..? Wanting to see it through to the end because you like the gameplay, characters, story, and setting.

And there are tons more games like it out there. Like Shadow of the Colossus, Ico, Metal Gear Solid, God of War, Prince of Persia: The Sands of Time, Okami, etc. All terrific games with cutscenes that are linear and have a set outcome.
 

Jimothy Sterling

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Goliath100 said:
Delcast said:
...cinematic experience...
What does that mean? Just answer that.
well THAT was the point... I'm not sure what it exactly means (probably the stylised aesthetics that directed narrative presents that have evolved from movies) but a lot of people value it highly. However, you seem to be incapable of reading past that.
AS I SAID that was NOT what made The Last of Us a great game. As I further explained ( and as Jim describes ).. that may be a boon for the game but without the very important gameplay elements discussed it would feel hollow and commonplace. The creative approach to combat and the general variety of options presented to the player create a very distinctive tone and texture to the game, additionally, the density of the spaces that awards players willing to explore, are all components that speak very highly of it's design, so much that the gameplay itself creates narrative beyond the literal narration.

I mean no offence, but I seriously think that we might have a bit of a language gap here, since your writing and grammar are really hard to follow and you seem to be struggling to understand some of the concepts a few of us are presenting.

Also, I'd like to ask you what game you feel has done a good job at this, I find it hard to understand exactly what is "good" in your perspective.
 

Goliath100

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Casual Shinji said:
The problem is that all those games are, by now, old. Resident Evil 4 (which is the close to tLoU) was released in 2005, that is almost 9 years ago. Do not tell me that a game in 2013 should be judged by the same standards as a game from 2005.
 

Andy Shandy

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Casual Shinji said:
So much praise for The Last of Us from critics, yet never a syllable uttered regarding the stunning musical score. :'(

I'm always a bit sad to see this part of the game overlooked so much, because for me the game would probably be 30% less effective without it. It's that good. And that while it's the guy's first video game soundtrack.
Couldn't agree more. It's almost heartbreaking that for all the praise that is laid upon The Last Of Us, very little of it talks about how brilliant Gustavo Santaolalla's pieces were.

Anyway, can't argue with this choice, Jim, although it leaves very little room for Rayman Legends. And Saints Row IV. And Remember Me. And Metal Gear Rising. And The Wonderful 101. And Payday 2. =P

[sub]Man, this is more difficult than I thought. And people say it's not been a good year for gaming! [/sub]
 

Britpoint

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Goliath100 said:
Britpoint said:
Is the meaningful storytelling the letters/notes or finding them?
Both. The content of the notes progresses the narrative as well, but they aren't just found willy nilly, there is gameplay associated with it. For example, you might find a note in a barricaded room. The note tells you why the room was barricaded, but before you find the note you have to overcome the obstacle of a door you can't open, perhaps by boosting Ellie up to a hard to reach spot so she can get through and open the door.

This is an example of the narrative creating a puzzle and therefore context for the game mechanics. The actual content of the note simply fleshes it out.
 

Jimothy Sterling

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Aardvaarkman said:
bringer of illumination said:
"People who don't share my opinions are lying."

Jim.

Stop that, you keep doing it.
Gosh, who would have thought that a person who ends his videos with "Thank God for me!" would ever engage in hyperbolic statements? And, naturally, someone whose commentary is frequently riddled with parody always intends his every statement to be deadly serious.
Yeah, no.

Jim does not get to have carte blanche for anything stupid he says, between the live actions segments that book-end the show and outside of blatantly highlighted hyperbole (which this was not), what he says has to be able to stand up to scrutiny, and if that can't be granted then NOTHING he says is worth taking seriously.
 

Goliath100

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Britpoint said:
Both. The content of the notes progresses the narrative as well, but they aren't just found willy nilly, there is gameplay associated with it. For example, you might find a note in a barricaded room. The note tells you why the room was barricaded, but before you find the note you have to overcome the obstacle of a door you can't open, perhaps by boosting Ellie up to a hard to reach spot so she can get through and open the door.

This is an example of the narrative creating a puzzle and therefore context for the game mechanics. The actual content of the note simply fleshes it out.
And how is the puzzle a part of the overall narrative? To be clear: I'm asking for gameplay/mechanics informing narrative, not the other way around.
 

Britpoint

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Goliath100 said:
Britpoint said:
Both. The content of the notes progresses the narrative as well, but they aren't just found willy nilly, there is gameplay associated with it. For example, you might find a note in a barricaded room. The note tells you why the room was barricaded, but before you find the note you have to overcome the obstacle of a door you can't open, perhaps by boosting Ellie up to a hard to reach spot so she can get through and open the door.

This is an example of the narrative creating a puzzle and therefore context for the game mechanics. The actual content of the note simply fleshes it out.
And how is the puzzle a part of the overall narrative? To be clear: I'm asking for gameplay/mechanics informing narrative, not the other way around.
I feel like you are being unbelievably vague in your request. Can you perhaps provide a couple of examples of games that in your view do what you are asking for really well (and explain why they do it well), so that I have a valid point of comparison?
 

Tactical Pause

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Goliath100 said:
*All the posts in one snip*
Yeesh, there's no need to be so confrontational about this. It's fine that you don't like the game, but is it really necessary to keep attacking people who did like it?

People are allowed to have different opinions, and shouldn't be interrogated every time they say something that isn't to your liking.
 

Thanatos2k

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There's still several good choices for tomorrow.... Saints Row 4, The Stanley Parable, and A Link Between Worlds....

(All of which I would easily put above Ridiculous Fishing btw)
 

Aardvaarkman

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bringer of illumination said:
Jim does not get to have carte blanche for anything stupid he says, between the live actions segments that book-end the show and outside of blatantly highlighted hyperbole (which this was not), what he says has to be able to stand up to scrutiny, and if that can't be granted then NOTHING he says is worth taking seriously.
Oh, come on, he was clearly being hyperbolic. Or do you not get things like context and tone? Although I do agree that most of what he says shouldn't be taken seriously. After all, it's just a comedy video about games. there's not a lot about games that should be taken too seriously. Another hint: we're using a site called "the Escapist."
 

Casual Shinji

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Goliath100 said:
Casual Shinji said:
The problem is that all those games are, by now, old. Resident Evil 4 (which is the close to tLoU) was released in 2005, that is almost 9 years ago. Do not tell me that a game in 2013 should be judged by the same standards as a game from 2005.
What does age have to do with it? We're talking about linear games, which according to you are bad because of cutscenes and scripted events. When there are plenty of linear games that are fantastic, precisely because they're linear and thus present you with a focused experience.
 

Goliath100

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Casual Shinji said:
What does age have to do with it?
Because none are arguing that that Iron Man 2's(one of the worst games of the 7th gen) graphics good compared to Super Mario 64, or the first Tomb Raider. You are ignoring 9 years of development of interactive storytelling.
 

Ragsnstitches

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Goliath100 said:
Aardvaarkman said:
What you are posting is telling me that "cinematic experience" means cutscenes (in a game context).
Cinematic experiences in games does not necessarily mean scripted events, though considering a game is only a compilation of scripts any event can technically be considered a scripted one.

The term "cinematic experience" was originally used to compliment a game that offered cinematic quality i.e the quality one would experience in cinema. Try to remember a time where the experience of a game was a lot more static with rudimentary animations and limited or non-existent voice acting (unless it was an FMV game). Among that standard, games popped up that had characters animate fluidly and were played by competent voice actors. At first this was almost exclusively tied to pre-animated or pre-rendered sequences.

It's taken for granted these days since the standard of games has pushed forward so far and "cinematic" applies to many titles. However there are still games that outdo the standard.

What you need to understand is that "Cinematic" does not mean pre-determined. A round of Battlefield 3 on a full server can have a cinematic quality to it, unless players start dicking about. A fire fight across a street section between 2 groups of infantry getting up turned by the introduction of heavy ordinance like a Tank or an attack chopper can make a sequence feel immensely cinematic, but lacking the pre-determination that you seem to think cinematic means.

You see it's not the direction of a person that makes something feel cinematic (though in cinema it is the director who ties everything together to make something work) it's the interaction between visuals, audio, motion and (mostly in film) camera.

Goliath100 said:
Is the meaningful storytelling the letters/notes or finding them?
There is more to TLoUs exploration then just the notes. Stashes have their own stories, the environment sshows the ruinage of mankind but also the reclamation of the land by nature (life goes on)... throughout the game, despite never leaving the here and now outside of the opening sequence, we are shown a story that stretches 20 years, from the beginning of a nightmare to the world TLoU has become. Catching a group of enemies unaware will usually get some sense of these characters lives, often carrying a sympathetic element. Stumbling upon an infestation has it's own set of tells and stories. The world tells us about what has happened, it tells us about the nature of things in this ruins of man and more importantly it tells us what Joel has faced in that time and all that Ellie has ever known.

Goliath100 said:
Casual Shinji said:
The problem is that all those games are, by now, old. Resident Evil 4 (which is the close to tLoU) was released in 2005, that is almost 9 years ago. Do not tell me that a game in 2013 should be judged by the same standards as a game from 2005.
What makes you think that a game of 2013 is automatically better then a game of 1990? Bigger budgets? No, if anything the budgets of games has stifled quality and innovation, not enhanced it. Larger studios? I think the old adage is "too many cooks spoil the broth". Better Tech? Certainly this makes a difference, but ultimately the tech are just tools for manipulation. A few hundred years ago to do a painting you need to pluck the hairs off of animal directly to create your brush, mix your own paint from scratch and still create works of art that are revered to this day as exemplary. Just because paintbrushes can be made from plastic fibers instead of horse tail and paint bases are manufactured for ease of use, does not automatically make modern paintings superior.

A lot of modern engineering still uses principles established decades, if not centuries ago.

I just don't see how age matters...

When did age become a disqualifier for greatness? A game that was great in 2005 can still be great in 2013. On average it isn't, but exceptions do exist. If something exemplified what games could do years ago, why shouldn't we hold modern games to that standard, at least until another game pushes the boat out even further? Has any game managed to outdo what Mario did for platforming over 2, nearly 3, decades ago? Heck, modern Mario seems to struggle under its own lineages shadow, let alone all the competitors that ape its formula. It's been refined of course, but it hasn't been improved. Mario of nearly 30 years ago is still basis for platformers today, no matter how much you remix it or splice genres together.

If you think standards are just a linear progression from one generation to the next, then you are incredibly naive. Improvements do happen over time, but things that buck trends or start their own come incredibly infrequently. Sometimes the creators themselves don't know what works, which is why so very often sequels feel alien to the game they are meant to be sequential to.

Standards that are set by the way of excellence are not easily outdone. You should probably stop taking that fact for granted.
 

Jimothy Sterling

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Goliath100 said:
Warning! This is a personal opinion.

I hate The Last of Us, not the game itself, and not the developer (despite the fact I can't stand anything they made in 7th gen). I hate what it represent: The idea that a "great" game can have all it's "great" parts being non-interactive. All the "great" part, they are all cutscene, or an equivalent to a cutscene (aka scripted events). And gameplay is standard shooting mechanics and lazy stealth mechanics. The gameplay is not very good, or in other words: Sterling gave a game award to a movie.
I do find it odd that people last year were all about the "Walking Dead". A game with piss poor gameplay but a great story and characters - and it won GOTY on many occasions (including Jim's).

This year brings us "The Last of Us" with decent, though not revolutionary, gameplay and a great story, lore and characters, but we get constant whining from a vocal minority about how the GOTY should be about gameplay and story doesn't matter.

I'm at a loss to understand this phenomenon.
franksands said:
I think the game is excelent and deserves all the prizes it gets, However, I really didn't like that ending. It does not make sense.
Actually, it's the only ending that DOES make sense. To end it any other way would have been completely wrong and not in line with the characterization. Joel sees Ellie as a surrogate for his daughter - and he would not fail her this time. There's a reason the beginning and the ending mirror each other.

I've said it before, but maybe my perspective is skewed because I'm a parent - I can completely empathize with Joel and his decision. There would be no way I would even think to make another choice if it were my kid (even a surrogate that I now view as my own child).

If you didn't get that, you completely missed the plot.
 

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Bittersteel said:
Please be Metro Last Light tommorow.Please be Metro last light tommorow. Oh, who am I kidding. Of course it won't be.
I will have to go with that one as well. Personally if I had my way The Last Of Us would not end up on anyone's game of the year list. The story was amazingly engrossing but the gameplay was so damn linear, restrictive, and mechanical in an open world "ATMOSPHERE" that I just could not compel myself to finish it by any stretch of the imagination.
 

StormShaun

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If I'm guessing Jim ... Saints Row 4 will be next.
Didn't he really like it?

Oh well, onto this episode.
I don't like The Last of Us, I mean damn it did look good like all Naughty Dog games. It is just that I didn't like the characters much, the story was okay ... I can admit that, but the gameplay was something that I found boring in a short while.

...

[sub][sub]This is why I prefer their Jak and Daxter series.[/sub][/sub]

But you know what, I can see why many vote it to be GotY, I'm not going to say "UGH, IT SUCKS, WHY DID YOU LIKE IT". I respect other people's opinions and that includes Jim. Sure I would go on a rant and list points why I think it is bad, but this is surely the wrong thread to do it in.

I'll still raise my glass to Naughty Dog though, I just hope they will return to their roots one day.
 

Oly J

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I've had The Last of Us on PS3 since not long after release, I got it with GTA5 by trading in a LOT of old games, but I haven't got around to playing it yet, mostly due to GTA5 and Kingdom Hearts HD being higher on my list, and being very busy over the last 3 months, but I've just put it in now, let's see where this goes
 

PoolCleaningRobot

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Jim has spoken. The Last of Us is perfect

Goliath100 said:
Questions to fans of The Last of us:
1: How do the Mechanics interact with the narrative, specifically the theme or the characters?
2: What is the player arc?
Well it's obvious you don't give a shit about other people's opinions on game you've never played, but I read that you argue to convince the spectators not the person you're arguing with

For one, the game has the typical "humans are the real monsters" theme but it presents it through gameplay. The first and most obvious enemies are the infected, the clickers, and the disease itself given a few spore filled areas you have to traverse. There is no central antagonist going "I'll catch you next time Ellie and Joel!". Eventually, humans are introduced as enemies and then spoilerish territory

All your weapons and techniques slowly get better and better. There's a whole room full of infected? Just attract them with a glass bottle and burn them with a Molotov. Later you get a flame thrower and the infected are easy to take care of with some planning. The humans on the other hand get worse as the story goes on. The random bandits with pieces of wood become organized gangs with assault rifles and vehicles. They won't run at you head first either, they'll sneak and flank you. They're way more dangerous and can suck up a lot more of your supplies

As the for the "player arc", I don't quite see your point. Are you saying the only good games are stuff like Fallout and Elder Scrolls where you build a character? Or do you prefer a silent protagonist Gordon Freeman style? The characters you play as are Ellie and Joel and I'm not going to summarize the entire game for you
 

Goliath100

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Britpoint said:
I feel like you are being unbelievably vague in your request. Can you perhaps provide a couple of examples of games that in your view do what you are asking for really well (and explain why they do it well), so that I have a valid point of comparison?
Ok, let's talk player arc:
Spec Ops: The Line start as a typical military shooter: Heroic good guys, brown people to shot and a villain with a poorly explained motive. But that the game start blaming the player for everything going wrong. And how the player respond to this criticism is the arc for the player, with Walker as a dark mirror.

And then there is Metro 2033:
A game about not giving in to once less instincts, and then recontextualize the standard shooting, and stealth mechanics into a constant test of just that: Will the player (and Artyom) revolt to their lesser instinct when challange, or take the higher road?
 

Shuu

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Uuuugh! I still really want to play it, but I just can't stomach shelling out for a PS3 for one game:(
 

Jimothy Sterling

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Goliath100 said:
Britpoint said:
I feel like you are being unbelievably vague in your request. Can you perhaps provide a couple of examples of games that in your view do what you are asking for really well (and explain why they do it well), so that I have a valid point of comparison?
Ok, let's talk player arc:
Spec Ops: The Line start as a typical military shooter: Heroic good guys, brown people to shot and a villain with a poorly explained motive. But that the game start blaming the player for everything going wrong. And how the player respond to this criticism is the arc for the player, with Walker as a dark mirror.

And then there is Metro 2033:
A game about not giving in to once less instincts, and then recontextualize the standard shooting, and stealth mechanics into a constant test of just that: Will the player (and Artyom) revolt to their lesser instinct when challange, or take the higher road?
Now It seems quite clear that you have not played The Last of Us, since it shares more than a bit with those "great examples" that you are proposing.
You'd really have to play it to see how it manages to provide both the linear narrative (really quite akin to Spec ops) and the narrative through gameplay, also very similar to that game, with a far subtler moralist purpose... And that ending... it is just so impressively grey. Likewise it shares a lot of the creative combat scenarios with Metro, although 2033 is more open ended, it also falls into the same narrative bottlenecks far more jarringly than TLoU ( while telling an interesting story in a much less proficient way ).

All I can recommend is for you to play it before you make judgements on its value.

Also, it is a bit silly to value works of art by age. You think Picasso's paintings should be better than the Sistine Chapel or the Lascaux Cave paintings? You think Justin Radiohead is better than Sergei Rachmaninoff? Of course not, even if they are hundreds of years apart and use different techniques and probably the newer ones had many technological advances to ease their production... The value of the piece is not tied solely to the technical limitations of the time, in fact it can be enhanced by that perspective. Classics live through time. as a representation of their time.
 

Grimh

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I freaking love this game so goddamn much, and I agree with you, the ending was fantastic.

The only thing I really don't like about the game is listen mode, which admittedly you can turn off.
 

Goliath100

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Delcast said:
Do you have any direct examples of that? That does not fall under "accidental subtext" or over analysis. And it need to be consistent break from status quo.

[quote/]Also, it is a bit silly to value works of art by age.[/quote]
This have become a straw man. What you are proposing is that The Last of Us should be placed in the same historical as Half-Life 2. Code word being "the same".I'm not saying that X game need to hold up to modern standards, but that a game from 2013 need to be judged like it was released in 2013. The argument that keeps being used is:"Final Fantasy 7 looked great when it come out, so it looks great now, without historical license."
 

Metalrocks

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really a shame this game only came out for PS3. i would love to play but since its not available on pc, it makes it harder to play it.
wondering what his #1 will be. maybe tomb raider or gta 5.
 

Aardvaarkman

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Goliath100 said:
This have become a straw man.
I don't think you know what a "straw man" is.

Goliath100 said:
What you are proposing is that The Last of Us should be placed in the same historical as Half-Life 2.
No, nobody has proposed that.

You seem to have a habit of putting words in people's mouths that they never said. You were the one who brought up the age of games as a factor, and fixated on it. Nobody else has mentioned it as a factor.

Goliath100 said:
Code word being "the same".I'm not saying that X game need to hold up to modern standards, but that a game from 2013 need to be judged like it was released in 2013.
Who, exactly, is it who isn't judging The Last of Us as if it wasn't released in 2013?

Also, what happened to your answers to my responses to you? I patiently answer all of your questions, most of which are vague and tangential, and then you simply claim that my arguments have "no meaning" (despite them being all about meaning) - and then don't even bother to answer straightforward questions, while you continue to harangue other posters according to your arbitrary standards of what a proper game is.
 

Jimothy Sterling

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Goliath100 said:
Delcast said:
Do you have any direct examples of that? That does not fall under "accidental subtext" or over analysis. And it need to be consistent break from status quo.

This have become a straw man. What you are proposing is that The Last of Us should be placed in the same historical as Half-Life 2. Code word being "the same".I'm not saying that X game need to hold up to modern standards, but that a game from 2013 need to be judged like it was released in 2013. The argument that keeps being used is:"Final Fantasy 7 looked great when it come out, so it looks great now, without historical license."
Wait, so you actually have not played the game but keep on hating it out of principle? What? Really? Prejudice? I'm sorry I cant keep discussing this with you if you are just assuming negatives to prove your point.

Also, as I said before, I'm quite sure that we have a language gap. This hasn't become a straw man. A straw man argument is when you attack a miss-representation of the rival idea. I have not done that at any point ( do you mean a fallacy? because I'm not aware of falling in any of those either ). All I am saying is that works of art must be valued observing their context, and in that sense how old they are means very little. It is undeniable that TLoU doesn't revolutionize many aspects of action games. It uses a lot of the same standards as many games before it, but that doesn't take away of its accomplishments... Mainly how thoughtfully and significantly it understands how those existing components interact with the whole experience, not simply "because it is a game" but going beyond that mechanical question.

For example, Without really comparing both, Romeo and Juliet used fairly standard romantic novel tropes, but it still managed to create probably the most iconic love story in history. Does it use more subversive new styled words? no. It just makes excellent use of well known pieces and crafts something special.
In this sense, you can't really judge artistic content solely by its technical achievement, but instead by how much it accomplishes to fulfill a desired experience in the audience. And in that sense TLoU is truly remarkable, it's comparative subtlety, it's assumption that maybe the player isn't dumb.
And yes Casual Shinji, Gustavo Santaolalla's score is absolutely integral to this accomplishment. As much as Austin Wintory's score did for Journey.
 

jmarquiso

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Daniel Lowery said:
I guess GTA V is Jim's game of the year. Good choice, I loved it.
Wouldn't it be great if he pisses people off and chooses Saint's Row IV
 

Lightknight

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daxterx2005 said:
Im bitter because ND dropped Jak and made this....
Jak and Daxter 1 sold 3.64 million copies in 2001. Huge title for the time.
Jak 2 sold 2.78 million copies in 2003.
Jak 3 sold 1.85 million copies in 2004.

The downtrend was fairly blatant. I would count the 2009 game but they only released it on the PS2 for some insane reason. So I'm not including it in the numbers since it only sold 460k units.

Then they started the Uncharted series and found out that they had an amazing gift for these kinds of games:

Uncharted 1: 4.63 million in 2007
Uncharted 2: 6.28 million in 2009
Uncharted 3: 6.12 Million in 2011.
Uncharted Vita: 1 million but the highest selling game on the Vita.

The Last of Us came out this year and is already up to 3.75 sales so far. So it has already been more successful than Jak and Daxter has ever been and has been selling faster than any of their other IPs. In another year it should shoot past any of the uncharteds too as it's one of the best sellers of the year.

That's the kind of business decision that any company would make if they could.
 

daxterx2005

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Lightknight said:
daxterx2005 said:
Im bitter because ND dropped Jak and made this....
Jak and Daxter 1 sold 3.64 million copies in 2001. Huge title for the time.
Jak 2 sold 2.78 million copies in 2003.
Jak 3 sold 1.85 million copies in 2004.

The downtrend was fairly blatant. I would count the 2009 game but they only released it on the PS2 for some insane reason. So I'm not including it in the numbers since it only sold 460k units.

Then they started the Uncharted series and found out that they had an amazing gift for these kinds of games:

Uncharted 1: 4.63 million in 2007
Uncharted 2: 6.28 million in 2009
Uncharted 3: 6.12 Million in 2011.
Uncharted Vita: 1 million but the highest selling game on the Vita.

The Last of Us came out this year and is already up to 3.75 sales so far. So it has already been more successful than Jak and Daxter has ever been and has been selling faster than any of their other IPs. In another year it should shoot past any of the uncharteds too as it's one of the best sellers of the year.

That's the kind of business decision that any company would make if they could.
I'm not even talking about all of that.
Last of Us was originally a Jak game, but sometime during development they went "Nah" and they gutted everything Jak and LoU was the end result.
 

Proverbial Jon

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franksands said:
I think the game is excelent and deserves all the prizes it gets, However, I really didn't like that ending. It does not make sense. It destroys everything you were building to.
I'm intrigued to know what particular aspects of the ending caused you to feel it "destroyed" everything that was being built towards. What do you feel the player/character was building towards?

Personal opinions are always going to differ, but I honestly thought it was not only the best way to end it but also the only way to end such a story.
 

M920CAIN

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Jim said "a brilliant story". What's so brilliant about it? it's just a zombie apocalypse cliche story. What makes the game good is not the story, the story by itself sucks. What makes the game good is the two characters, the relationship of father who misses his daughter and girl who he threats like the daughter he lost and misses. That's the good part, finding humanity in a dire situation, and also the girl is a strong child for taking care of her newly wounded papa during the winter.
 

Aardvaarkman

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M920CAIN said:
What makes the game good is the two characters, the relationship of father who misses his daughter and girl who he threats like the daughter he lost and misses.
That's part of the story. I'm not sure why you think that the characters in a story are somehow separate from the story. Perhaps you are thinking of "plot" when you say "story"?
 

M920CAIN

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Aardvaarkman said:
M920CAIN said:
What makes the game good is the two characters, the relationship of father who misses his daughter and girl who he threats like the daughter he lost and misses.
That's part of the story. I'm not sure why you think that the characters in a story are somehow separate from the story. Perhaps you are thinking of "plot" when you say "story"?
Because they are separate from the story? Call it plot or story or whatever you wish, the father and daughter is a theme, the story is about surviving a zombie apocalypse. The father and daughter relationship has nothing to do with the zombie apocalypse. The zombie apocalypse was not even needed to make it a great game, it's only there because gamers need something to shoot at. Those 2 characters could be put in an entire different situation that has nothing to do with zombies and the relationship would still make sense. I'm not seeing the lasting value, but maybe this is my problem I admit. I'm a sucker for awesome stories in games and this game lacked it. The main characters were awesome, the rest, not so much.
 

Raggedstar

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daxterx2005 said:
I'm not even talking about all of that.
Last of Us was originally a Jak game, but sometime during development they went "Nah" and they gutted everything Jak and LoU was the end result.
Did you read the specifics in that Jak game though? From what I've heard, nothing of value was lost in axing it. They were originally planning a darker, more realistic reboot with the characters. Jak was less elf-like and more human (and some concept art had his hair spiked, others dreads) and Daxter was more animalistic and mute. In October, during a presentation about TLOU, they showed off some concept art of Daxter (and while they were cute, I don't want to play in a world where Daxter can't speak). They canceled it because they didn't feel that was the kind of game the fans wanted (and considering they did a "dark reboot" with Jak 2 that largely divides fans even today, I think that was a good call). They announced this about the time the Jak and Daxter collection was released last year (The Escapist has an article about that, but didn't mention the details of the game).

After Lost Frontier, a Jak game by Naughty Dog would've sold like gangbusters regardless if it wasn't good (and even if the original creators have long since left). Everyone would've come out of the woodwork to play it, and might've got a game that they didn't ask for. Making TLOU was probably the less-greedy move on their part, and we still got a game many consider GOTY. I love Jak and Daxter, and I admitted to having a lot of bitterness towards this and Uncharted because Naughty Dog is just so damn good at making platformers. But it didn't take long for TLOU to win me over (still won't touch Uncharted though, as it brings me nothing). I don't want anyone doing anything with the IP unless they're damn sure they can deliver. They still care about the franchise (in that TLOU behind the scenes video, they even dedicated a segment to show an awesome Jak cosplayer and a huge Jak 2 statue in the office), and they didn't eliminate the possibility of trying again sometime in the future.
 

Aardvaarkman

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M920CAIN said:
Because they are separate from the story?
No, they aren't. They're integral to the story - they are at the very heart of it. The story is about them.

M920CAIN said:
Call it plot or story or whatever you wish, the father and daughter is a theme, the story is about surviving a zombie apocalypse.
The father and daughter are not a "theme" - they are central characters in the story. The "zombie apocalypse" is the setting of the story, and it's not even a "zombie apocalypse" - it's a fungal outbreak. I wonder if you've even played this game.

M920CAIN said:
The father and daughter relationship has nothing to do with the zombie apocalypse.
Yeah, so what? They are characters caught up in these events. How does that not make them part of the story?

You seem to be projecting an entirely different story than the one that was told. The story is about Joel and Ellie. I'm not sure why you think it is all about "zombie apocalypse" - the story is primarily about Joel, and his relationship with Ellie.

M920CAIN said:
The zombie apocalypse was not even needed to make it a great game,
That could be said about anything. The Wire did not have to be about the drug trade and law enforcement in Baltimore, but it was. Does it somehow diminish The Wire that it could have been in another setting and have different characters than it did?

M920CAIN said:
Those 2 characters could be put in an entire different situation that has nothing to do with zombies and the relationship would still make sense.
So... your problem is that you don't like zombies?

How about if the story took place in a suburban book club, where the characters expressed their relationship via extensive discussion of Moby DIck - would that be a better game?
 

Strazdas

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What do you mean you are not a fan of Uncharted? In Podtoid episode 162 You claim otherwise!
 

M920CAIN

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Aardvaarkman said:
M920CAIN said:
Because they are separate from the story?
No, they aren't. They're integral to the story - they are at the very heart of it. The story is about them.

M920CAIN said:
Call it plot or story or whatever you wish, the father and daughter is a theme, the story is about surviving a zombie apocalypse.
The father and daughter are not a "theme" - they are central characters in the story. The "zombie apocalypse" is the setting of the story, and it's not even a "zombie apocalypse" - it's a fungal outbreak. I wonder if you've even played this game.

M920CAIN said:
The father and daughter relationship has nothing to do with the zombie apocalypse.
Yeah, so what? They are characters caught up in these events. How does that not make them part of the story?

You seem to be projecting an entirely different story than the one that was told. The story is about Joel and Ellie. I'm not sure why you think it is all about "zombie apocalypse" - the story is primarily about Joel, and his relationship with Ellie.

M920CAIN said:
The zombie apocalypse was not even needed to make it a great game,
That could be said about anything. The Wire did not have to be about the drug trade and law enforcement in Baltimore, but it was. Does it somehow diminish The Wire that it could have been in another setting and have different characters than it did?

M920CAIN said:
Those 2 characters could be put in an entire different situation that has nothing to do with zombies and the relationship would still make sense.
So... your problem is that you don't like zombies?

How about if the story took place in a suburban book club, where the characters expressed their relationship via extensive discussion of Moby DIck - would that be a better game?
Like I said, call it whatever you like, it's the equivalent of a zombie apocalypse however you dice it. It's dressed up as a "fungal thingy" as you want to call it. It's not that I don't like zombie, hey wait.. right, I don't like zombies, that's why I shoot them and that's why you shoot them. It's not about liking/disliking zombies.

You gave a boring setting with that Moby Dick thing to make your argument. You can give a cool setting and also disprove the argument just as easily. The fact is the execution of the character relationship is done very well, the rest of the story is executed pretty poorly, fungal or no fungal, zombie or no zombie. What makes the characters central to the "plot"/"story"? the fact that Ellie is some kind of " Deus Ex machina " to stop the infestation. Please, that's cliche, far fetched, not needed to draw emotions from empathetic players.

But I'll stop here, I understand you like the game very much and wish to defend it as much as you can, so I won't bash it. You have a right to like what you like and I can respect that.
 

Aardvaarkman

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M920CAIN said:
But I'll stop here, I understand you like the game very much and wish to defend it as much as you can, so I won't bash it. You have a right to like what you like and I can respect that.
It has nothing to do with liking the game. I'd have the same response to comments about a game I didn't like.

No matter which way you slice it, the protagonists of a story are not a "theme" - they are the characters. This is about literary criticism and using the proper terms as much as anything. Like my responses to the guy who apparently doesn't understand what "cinematic" means.

I'd be perfectly fine with your criticism if you used appropriate terms. And "theme" is not an appropriate term for central characters of a story. Framing an argument with improper terms makes it impossible to have a meaningful discussion.

Also, on the zombie thing, they are zombie-like, but that doesn't make them zombies. And ultimately, the story is about the humans, not the zombies. It's the humans who really screw everything up. So, I think you have things backwards - if anything's a "theme" or a "backdrop" - it's the "zombies" - the story really isn't about them.

M920CAIN said:
What makes the characters central to the "plot"/"story"? the fact that Ellie is some kind of " Deus Ex machina " to stop the infestation.
Uh, yeah. If you're going to write a book/movie/game about the Kenedy assassination, do you feature characters from some random town in India, or do you make it about the people who were involved in the assassination?

M920CAIN said:
Please, that's cliche, far fetched, not needed to draw emotions from empathetic players.
Maybe - but complaining about "far fetched" and "cliche" in video games? Holy hell - the vast majority of things that happen in video games are completely unrealistic and implausible.
 

M920CAIN

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Aardvaarkman said:
M920CAIN said:
But I'll stop here, I understand you like the game very much and wish to defend it as much as you can, so I won't bash it. You have a right to like what you like and I can respect that.
It has nothing to do with liking the game. I'd have the same response to comments about a game I didn't like.

No matter which way you slice it, the protagonists of a story are not a "theme" - they are the characters. This is about literary criticism and using the proper terms as much as anything. Like my responses to the guy who apparently doesn't understand what "cinematic" means.

I'd be perfectly fine with your criticism if you used appropriate terms. And "theme" is not an appropriate term for central characters of a story. Framing an argument with improper terms makes it impossible to have a meaningful discussion.

Also, on the zombie thing, they are zombie-like, but that doesn't make them zombies. And ultimately, the story is about the humans, not the zombies. It's the humans who really screw everything up. So, I think you have things backwards - if anything's a "theme" or a "backdrop" - it's the "zombies" - the story really isn't about them.

M920CAIN said:
What makes the characters central to the "plot"/"story"? the fact that Ellie is some kind of " Deus Ex machina " to stop the infestation.
Uh, yeah. If you're going to write a book/movie/game about the Kenedy assassination, do you feature characters from some random town in India, or do you make it about the people who were involved in the assassination?

M920CAIN said:
Please, that's cliche, far fetched, not needed to draw emotions from empathetic players.
Maybe - but complaining about "far fetched" and "cliche" in video games? Holy hell - the vast majority of things that happen in video games are completely unrealistic and implausible.
OK, Earnest Hemingway. I got the point. Have your literary-zombie-not-about-zombie-about-humans-fungal-literary-art. I don't need to prove anything or defend anything. The game is out there for people to see and judge for tehmselves (I hope you're not going to correct grammar now) in addition to insulting my intelligence due to improper use of terms. If it's not meaningful conversation, why bother to quote me? I wouldn't. (ergo hint)
 

WarpZone

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Jimothy Sterling said:
Jimquisition Awards 2013 - The Last of Us

Hopefully this one will "click" with you.

Watch Video
I didn't say the ending was wrong. What I said was that the game reviewers who played the game before it came out and then called the game as a whole "a good game about being a dad" are horrible human beings, either because they honestly identify with this douchebag character and contrived bullshit story, or because they knowingly lied in a video game review, and that I did not discover this fact until I saw the ending.

When I spoke out against Miracle of Sound's song, perplexingly titled "the best of us," people took pains to assure me it was the second one, and that I just wasn't imagining enough metaphors to make sense out of the song's lyrics.

The Worst of Us should not be held up as a positive example of parenting. Ever. By anyone. Even accidentally.
 

Flutterguy

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I thought the game was a bit too over-rated. By the time I played it i was expecting much more then what it delivered.

It had me enthralled until the end of the into sequence where 2 minutes of crying for characters I knew little to nothing about just had me laughing uncontrollably. Too much human fighting too, I understand it is hard to make an engaging story about zombies without great character development/representation to pull you through and adding human antagonists is cheaper then great writers or original ideas...
 

Crazycat690

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TLoU is my game of the year, so I agree with what he says. Loved how Joel was actually so brutal, I mean... I hope I'm not spoiling for anyone (if you read past this, be warned) but when those cannibals took Ellie, when he interrogated those two guys it hit me what that guy was actually capable of.