I liked DMC gameplay. I was just sad that the story and aesthetics took the turn they did. Still, for $10 it was enjoyable enough. The color palette was my biggest problem aside from the story. It's very unpleasant to look at.
Jimquisition: Joy Begets Anger
- Thread starter Jimothy Sterling
- Start date
Well, the problem I see with your argument here is you are talking entire genres - and most gamers won't really buy genres they don't like and expect great things. Heck most gamers won't even read the reviews for niches that aren't theirs.CitySquirrel said:
But they will get annoyed if a game is highly reviewed that falls within a genre they like, and if it is touted as being their sort of thing.
So in real terms, they aren't complaining about getting served seafood when they order seafood.
Further games frequently are severely structurally flawed. Take say, The Sims 3 - on some computers that game requires a certain degree of computer literacy just to get it running, otherwise it will just boot you out in about ten minutes or so. It has a metacritic score of 86.
XCom Enemy Unknown, realise I like this game but if it was a restaurant it would be shut down it is so riddled with bugs. 89 on Metacritic. They still haven't fixed most of the old bugs as of Enemy Within, the expansion which got 86.
These are supposed to be good games in their genres, but even on a basic playability level there are serious problems.
I think to some extent the backlash positive reviews get is born of this sort of thing - where gamers who thought that a game was going to be just what they wanted find it sorely lacking, whether it is technical issues or the game just isn't as well thought out as it is billed as. To some extent their anger is an instinct to warn others.
Now the fact that it tends to be personal and not about attacking the work - is one of the things that really does need addressing. If we could keep anger tethered to what people are really angry at, which is generally products and ideas rather than actual people, this would be a much better world.
I don't think the anger itself is the problem - I think it is the tendency to ad hominem, to tie people up so closely to their ideas that you can't quite separate the two, and thus you take an attack on one as an attack on the other.
Oddly, in the cases that should inspire the most rage, this phenomenon doesn't happen. I tell people I liked Sonic '06, and people either laugh and assume I'm joking, or gather around like I'm some exotic daredevil telling a story about how I drank an entire bottle of hot sauce in 10 seconds.
Doesn't work isn't the same as not as advertised. If I am advertised that product A will do B/C/D and it does not actually do/contain C and D then the product is not what it is suppose to be.PortalThinker113 said:
You said you purchased the new aliens game correct? Well the game didn't contain a lot of what was advertised, not to mention it didn't work properly. If you bought a car and was told it contain a satellite radio and leather seats, then after receiving the car found the radio missing would you chalk it up to not liking cars without radios and move on?
There is a very real difference between subjective taste and false advertising. If I order a cheese burger and they forget the cheese I am not complaining that I don't like the taste of a burger without cheese. I am complaining that I ordered a cheese burger and I was given something different. That is my real disagreement with this Jim rant. If a game advertises something and doesn't deliver then we are all perfectly justified in complaining.
Cheers.
I like Naruto! (Only the good parts, not the filler.) Most people at this point roll their eyes.Raioken18 said:
The real blasphemy is if you admit to liking Bleach. Explosions occur.
People can like DmC all they want, the problem was by attempting to sell this rebooted title was, if it was successful, probably would have killed the original series in favor of putting funding into making "DmC2", which is why I think if DmC was a standalone game under a new.....everything, I would've given it more favor.
DmC as a new IP? would've been good.
DmC as an actual Devil May Cry title? it was trash to me.
But even then, I don't direct hate at people for liking it, I hate Capcom for letting it happen in the first place, because once again, Capcom prove they don't know how to deal with the West.
DmC as a new IP? would've been good.
DmC as an actual Devil May Cry title? it was trash to me.
But even then, I don't direct hate at people for liking it, I hate Capcom for letting it happen in the first place, because once again, Capcom prove they don't know how to deal with the West.
I don't think this is really a thing. Are there people online who shit on anything? Sure. Do most gamers get angry if someone liked a game they didn't care for? Bullshit.canadamus_prime said:
The DMC thing is an instance of a series hardcore fans being upset about a change in direction of their series. Even then there were plenty of reasonable and even positive voices as well.
A couple of things.
1) Nice episode overall. I liked it more than I though I would. I completely agree that people need to get over it when someone else enjoys something they dislike.
2) Please don't do that thing where you assume entire groups of people MUST be lonely, hate-filled, joyless sacks of underage crap just because you disagree with them. Generalizations are dumb.
3) New thing? Are you messing with me right now? This shit has been around as long as people have liked things. There were cavemen that hated other cavemen because thy liked certain cave paintings of deer and shit. Maybe the reviewer hatred for users is new, but honestly, I haven't noticed it happening very much.
4) Since you pretty much asked directly for a reason, I'll throw my take in here. I've experienced exactly what you're talking about in this episode. I have disliked people for liking something. For me, it comes from a place of extreme irritation at undeserved praise. If something is clearly terrible, but it still receives praise, that's annoying, sometimes to the point of hatred.
Also, I think you dismiss the "It makes devs create more of the same thing" argument too quickly. Granted, it isn't anyone's duty to dislike certain games so the stop coming out. Not at all. However, that doesn't mean positive reviews don't have that effect anyway. When Bioshock Infinite receives massive praise for its story, there are companies that will tweak their content to be more like that. That can cause anger.
In the end, I think criticism of all things is generally healthy. If everyone sat around agreeing with each other, nothing would ever improve. By endlessly criticizing ever little thing about everything, we can make progress. We just have to be able to ignore the vitriol part and focus on the helpful bits. This includes everything from actual content to the reviews of said content. The lack of acceptance can get very out of hand though. Sometimes people need to just get it through their brains that things are liked by other people.
1) Nice episode overall. I liked it more than I though I would. I completely agree that people need to get over it when someone else enjoys something they dislike.
2) Please don't do that thing where you assume entire groups of people MUST be lonely, hate-filled, joyless sacks of underage crap just because you disagree with them. Generalizations are dumb.
3) New thing? Are you messing with me right now? This shit has been around as long as people have liked things. There were cavemen that hated other cavemen because thy liked certain cave paintings of deer and shit. Maybe the reviewer hatred for users is new, but honestly, I haven't noticed it happening very much.
4) Since you pretty much asked directly for a reason, I'll throw my take in here. I've experienced exactly what you're talking about in this episode. I have disliked people for liking something. For me, it comes from a place of extreme irritation at undeserved praise. If something is clearly terrible, but it still receives praise, that's annoying, sometimes to the point of hatred.
Also, I think you dismiss the "It makes devs create more of the same thing" argument too quickly. Granted, it isn't anyone's duty to dislike certain games so the stop coming out. Not at all. However, that doesn't mean positive reviews don't have that effect anyway. When Bioshock Infinite receives massive praise for its story, there are companies that will tweak their content to be more like that. That can cause anger.
In the end, I think criticism of all things is generally healthy. If everyone sat around agreeing with each other, nothing would ever improve. By endlessly criticizing ever little thing about everything, we can make progress. We just have to be able to ignore the vitriol part and focus on the helpful bits. This includes everything from actual content to the reviews of said content. The lack of acceptance can get very out of hand though. Sometimes people need to just get it through their brains that things are liked by other people.
Also there's a very important distinction here that I think Jim is missing, probably because he's a reviewer.
When praising a game, there are two statement things you can say:
1. I liked it.
2. It's a good game.
These are two completely separate statements. You can like a bad game (I like Cross Edge, for example), and you can hate a good game (I hate Halo, for example).
Unfortunately, so many people in the world merge the statements and only ever advocate one thing:
1. Because I liked it, it's a good game.
2. Because I don't like it, it's a bad game.
Wrong. WRONG! People need to divorce their personal feelings from objectively looking at what a game is. The thing is, when someone else then suggests that a game you liked is NOT in fact a good game, people take this statement as an attack on them LIKING it, instead of an attack on them saying it's a good game - because they are unable to now tell the difference between the two statements.
Jim has fallen into this trap I fear, unable to separate criticisms of his statements about the quality of a game from statements that he liked a game. Same with the Dragon Age 2 review. It's NOT a 10/10, regardless of how much the guy liked it. He can like it all he wants, but liking it does not make it a good game.
People are not attacking you for liking a game, people are attacking you for saying a game is good. Unfortunately, you're a reviewer, so the two things come in the same package.
When praising a game, there are two statement things you can say:
1. I liked it.
2. It's a good game.
These are two completely separate statements. You can like a bad game (I like Cross Edge, for example), and you can hate a good game (I hate Halo, for example).
Unfortunately, so many people in the world merge the statements and only ever advocate one thing:
1. Because I liked it, it's a good game.
2. Because I don't like it, it's a bad game.
Wrong. WRONG! People need to divorce their personal feelings from objectively looking at what a game is. The thing is, when someone else then suggests that a game you liked is NOT in fact a good game, people take this statement as an attack on them LIKING it, instead of an attack on them saying it's a good game - because they are unable to now tell the difference between the two statements.
Jim has fallen into this trap I fear, unable to separate criticisms of his statements about the quality of a game from statements that he liked a game. Same with the Dragon Age 2 review. It's NOT a 10/10, regardless of how much the guy liked it. He can like it all he wants, but liking it does not make it a good game.
People are not attacking you for liking a game, people are attacking you for saying a game is good. Unfortunately, you're a reviewer, so the two things come in the same package.
I think I know why it exists and I'm sorry if someone else said it first, but I don't want to read the whole topic.
Hate for joy exists because people are mad that the thing they hated and think shouldn't exist is being given a reason to exist.
When they see people like Bioshock infinite, they see people who prop up "pretentious art bullshit" and give it a reason to exist.
When they see people like mass effect 3, they see people who like "dumbed down linear shooty games that ruined RPGs forevuuurrrr" and give them a reason to exist.
When they see people who like kirby, they....uhh......Actually that one has me puzzled. I'm a pretty big kirby fan and while Mass attack looked kinda lame, I can't see why they'd hate people who like it. Maybe they're afraid Kirby games will all become pure gimmick centered?
Like...Jim, how would you react if someone told you unequivocally that they loved Aliens Colonial Marines or Ride to hell Retribution, to the point of hoping more of the exact same gets made? Probably confusion, at least.
Granted, I'm not one of these people. If someone likes a game I think is absolute shit, I'll facepalm and go "well, alright, your choice, man. I guess someone's gotta like it."
Hell, I'm one of those weirdos sometimes. I LOVED Shadow the Hedgehog, despite the fact the story and dialogue was garbage and the gameplay was kinda broken.
Hate for joy exists because people are mad that the thing they hated and think shouldn't exist is being given a reason to exist.
When they see people like Bioshock infinite, they see people who prop up "pretentious art bullshit" and give it a reason to exist.
When they see people like mass effect 3, they see people who like "dumbed down linear shooty games that ruined RPGs forevuuurrrr" and give them a reason to exist.
When they see people who like kirby, they....uhh......Actually that one has me puzzled. I'm a pretty big kirby fan and while Mass attack looked kinda lame, I can't see why they'd hate people who like it. Maybe they're afraid Kirby games will all become pure gimmick centered?
Like...Jim, how would you react if someone told you unequivocally that they loved Aliens Colonial Marines or Ride to hell Retribution, to the point of hoping more of the exact same gets made? Probably confusion, at least.
Granted, I'm not one of these people. If someone likes a game I think is absolute shit, I'll facepalm and go "well, alright, your choice, man. I guess someone's gotta like it."
Hell, I'm one of those weirdos sometimes. I LOVED Shadow the Hedgehog, despite the fact the story and dialogue was garbage and the gameplay was kinda broken.
The Hipster gamer has arrived. Its too mainstream to like games that reviewers like. When the indie reviewer points out that the game everyone else likes has it flaws, its hip to latch on to that bad review and laugh at others who enjoyed the game.
I can't help but feel alienated every time Jim makes a video talking about crazies that are apparently all over the community, I can only think "so there are crazies who respond like that? Alright then, interesting to know" and move along.
I can't really relate to it and haven't come across too many such crazy people myself, but that's assuming that this is common knowledge by now:
I could basically apply that to every JimQuisition video that harps on about the crazies. Yes, being in Jim's position I could imagine that he would attract a huge amount of attention from crazies and face the worst kind of crowds.
But ultimately people he's trying to target will never change and/or don't even bother watching JimQuisition videos (because it's not about game reviews), and the people who he isn't targeting (e.g. me) can only shrug our shoulders and move along.
I can't really relate to it and haven't come across too many such crazy people myself, but that's assuming that this is common knowledge by now:
I could basically apply that to every JimQuisition video that harps on about the crazies. Yes, being in Jim's position I could imagine that he would attract a huge amount of attention from crazies and face the worst kind of crowds.
But ultimately people he's trying to target will never change and/or don't even bother watching JimQuisition videos (because it's not about game reviews), and the people who he isn't targeting (e.g. me) can only shrug our shoulders and move along.
I find it odd that Jim talked about games as "pure joy factories" when he opened the video with footage from The Last of Us, which is, as Yahtzee put it, Naughty Dog's Oscar bait to the Summer Action Blockbuster of the Uncharted series. Slavishly adhering to the trope True Art Is Depressing. Not my cup of tea, but I see how some types of people would be fans. I understand being angry with someone hating something you like, because it's easy to take it personally. When I first heard Jim hated Assassin's Creed II, my first thought was "Dafuq is wrong with you?!" and I still think that sometimes. I haven't played Bioshock:Infinite yet, but I can see how people would hate it for not being enough like the first game, since the name "Bioshock" is now synonymous with the mood, atmosphere, and thought-provoking story that didn't talk down to you, the player (see the trope Viewers Are Geniuses).
I try not to be the person that shits on people for liking things.
I think I do a good job of it but it can be hard at times.
I bought Assassin's Creed 3 based off on Mr. Tito's perfect score on it. (Nevermind his Dragon Age 2 review)
It. Was. A. Huge. Fucking. Disappointment. (and I can even overlook Connor's "unlikeable" personality. I think he was fine)
Then he goes on to review Assassin's Creed 4 another perfect score. Does he think AC3 and AC4 are of same quality that warrants a perfect score? Or does he give out perfect score unconditionally to all Assassin's Creed games because he couldn't bother with reviewing it? To me, it raises questions on how he reviews games he plays.
I think I do a good job of it but it can be hard at times.
I bought Assassin's Creed 3 based off on Mr. Tito's perfect score on it. (Nevermind his Dragon Age 2 review)
It. Was. A. Huge. Fucking. Disappointment. (and I can even overlook Connor's "unlikeable" personality. I think he was fine)
Then he goes on to review Assassin's Creed 4 another perfect score. Does he think AC3 and AC4 are of same quality that warrants a perfect score? Or does he give out perfect score unconditionally to all Assassin's Creed games because he couldn't bother with reviewing it? To me, it raises questions on how he reviews games he plays.
Jim. Come here Jim take a seat. Why do you molest my childhood? It was all nicely put away with no regrets and you kicked the door in to remind me that I wasted time and money to get these fucking fantasy comic books.
While i generally aggree with that statement and think that raging idiots should be shut down at every turn, one has to look out while doing that to not shut down legetimate criticism.
For example i clearly didn't like greg tito's review of dragon age 2.
Not just because i personally don't like dragon age 2, but because it was not particullary well done in my opinion.
It left out a lot of aspects of the game and glossed over others.
And just to get a bit unreasonable at the end of this.
If he likes the button-mashing combat, blander characters and unfocused story good for him.
But, while visuals are a matter of opinion, i just can't see how anyone can call DA 2 the best - looking game of the year were Crysis 3 and the Witcher 2 were released.
For example i clearly didn't like greg tito's review of dragon age 2.
Not just because i personally don't like dragon age 2, but because it was not particullary well done in my opinion.
It left out a lot of aspects of the game and glossed over others.
And just to get a bit unreasonable at the end of this.
If he likes the button-mashing combat, blander characters and unfocused story good for him.
But, while visuals are a matter of opinion, i just can't see how anyone can call DA 2 the best - looking game of the year were Crysis 3 and the Witcher 2 were released.