Jimquisition: Launch Splooge

Sonic Doctor

Time Lord / Whack-A-Newbie!
Jan 9, 2010
3,042
0
0
Jimothy Sterling said:
Launch Splooge

As we head toward the launch of the Xbox One and PlayStation 4, we're going to soon be hearing about their launch libraries, and how awesome they are. Ignore these boasts.

Watch Video
It has been awhile, but this is actually one thing I agree with you on.

Any time somebody trots out that old and dead horse of "I'm waiting to get the system because the system has "no games", I just want reach through the Internet lines and slap them upside the head.

And, you definitely are right that gamers need to think more on the long term. Many seem to have no patience to wait for games to come out like they normally do, well that is until new platforms become old, then they are quick to say, no this console has this this this and this. But, then again, when a new generation comes around the crowd again starts crying "no games" fowl.

Most of the time, when a new generation comes around, I don't have the money to get into it yet, and I suspect a good bit of the "no games" group are people that are trying to hide the fact that they don't have the money for any of the new systems yet.

The sad thing I see for Nintendo is that there are way too many impatient gamers out their that it will hurt them in the new generation. They launched Wii U a year early compared to the other two, and even though that shouldn't hurt them, it is. I've seen way too many comments about the new line up schedule, that you praised, where people are saying that it is a little too late for Nintendo, and they had their chance to release their games. There have been people commenting on how they've already sold their Wii U's because there "weren't enough games". What I find appalling about that is that the system still hasn't been out even a year.

The only thing I'll admit to, is that I tend to forget and ignore that there are gamers out there that only play one, maybe two different genres of games. Where I on the other hand play pretty much all styles at some point in a generation, as a person, that a little over a couple decades ago, grew up with gaming as a core of my being, because I lived out in the woodland boonies, with my consoles and old PCs as my friends, because my parents would tell me that my friends from school lived too far away, or it wasn't appropriate to go out or stay at a friend's house during a school night, while they filled the weekends with stay at home family times. It's a sad and tortured story, but that's really not what I should be talking about.
 

Sonic Doctor

Time Lord / Whack-A-Newbie!
Jan 9, 2010
3,042
0
0
Roman Monaghan said:
But isn't that the issue? It's not that we want TONS of games on a console at launch. I don't know anyone who says that (some people might, but they're stupid) It's that we want games that are actually worth playing! I mean I counted one launch game for the WiiU that was actually a new game that didn't look like complete ass, and it was ZombiU for crying out loud. The Vita had, what, AC 3 L?
That is the problem I see though. People will wait to buy a console, even if they have the money, because it only has one or two games they are interested in.

Really, one game should be enough. You get a console, play that one game to death for a few months, move onto another hobby for a few months or go back and play old games on other systems you have, and then when a new game you want to play comes out, you will be more than ready to get and play it.

I'm of the belief that many people wait way too long for a library of games they like to appear before they get a console. I think these people tend to be the ones that wait till that ass end of a console generation to make a choice of console, then end up complaining that the generation wasn't long enough when a year or two later a new generation is starting. "But I just got my console, and these five or so games(though dated)! They need to wait and release more games(ignoring and not taking the time to truly look at the library of thousands of games that they let wiz past them as they waited for their preferred library of games for the system to be 'worth it')."

Really the optimum time to get a console is between launch and just before the half-way point of the generation. That is the perfect window that then gives people time to properly look at the system they have and broaden their minds to what will be a good game to play out of the games coming out and games that have already been released in the past.

My advice to people is, if you have the money now to get the console you want, even mildly want, and it has at least one game you want to play on it, just get it now. The console generations have been getting longer and longer, and if you don't think you will get a good list of games in a 6 to 8 year span(even 3 to 4 years if bought at the midway point), I don't even know why you would even bother with gaming, because at that point, you are just too picky about what you want to play. Again broaden your gaming horizon, over time, buy a few games in some genres you aren't interested in, maybe something will stick in the mean time while you wait for the actual game you want to come out.
 

Dragonbums

Indulge in it's whiffy sensation
May 9, 2013
3,307
0
0
I mean for crying out loud, I was gonna ask why Jim didn't bring up the 3DS in this video, but then of course I remembered why: they did exactly this proposed plan when they launch the 3DS. And that shit bombed out the gate too. Damned if you do damned if you don't I guess.
Perhaps, unless they change their game lineup:

One has to talk about the current success of the 3DS as well. It should be a whole nother topic discussed by Jimquisition.
Because it seems that the biggest complaint about Nintendo here on the Escapist is that Nintendo has little third party support.
And yet that same third party support ditched them just before WiiU launched causing and even more lacking library, and they did fuck all with making worth it games for the 3DS for the first two years.
It seems that while we complain about Nintendo "milking" Mario and Zelda, it is literally those very titles that have finally brought the 3DS into the profit zone. The same people that complain about this, tend to be the same people who say they aren't buying the console until it has those very titles.
Animal Crossing: New Leaf quadrupled sales in Japan in literally the first week.
The same could be said here in North America.
I would even go far as to say that Mario has long since lost the crown of being a system mover on the handhelds. Because for the past few years it's been their other cash cow Pokemon that drove sales through the roof software and hardware wise, and considering the amount of attention Pokemon X and Y is getting now- the Vita has a time bomb between this summer and October 12 to get it's shit together. Because once that game gets released, it's done.

Pokemon along with Animal Crossing tend to be games that players can indulge themselves into for months without getting tired of them.
Perhaps they should start out their handheld launch libraries with those two franchises first. They are guaranteed to move a lot of units, which in turn will attract third party support.
 

Something Amyss

Aswyng and Amyss
Dec 3, 2008
24,759
0
0
subtlefuge said:
Pokemon X&Y will effectively bury the Vita. I'd be surprised if Sony doesn't bow out of the handheld market at some point soon. They can laugh at all the dumb choices they made when they're counting all their PS4 money.
They're unlikely to bow out of the handheld market based on poor performance. Look at the PSP.
 

carpathic

New member
Oct 5, 2009
1,287
0
0
A lot of the Vita's problems were predicated upon the whole digital distribution/cash grab BS. It had little to do with the launch line up and everything to do with corporate greed, and the fact that no one really needs a singular gaming device any more...
 

Dragonbums

Indulge in it's whiffy sensation
May 9, 2013
3,307
0
0
Zachary Amaranth said:
subtlefuge said:
Pokemon X&Y will effectively bury the Vita. I'd be surprised if Sony doesn't bow out of the handheld market at some point soon. They can laugh at all the dumb choices they made when they're counting all their PS4 money.
They're unlikely to bow out of the handheld market based on poor performance. Look at the PSP.
I don't think the PSP did that bad.
I mean, when I was a kid it was all too common that kids would buy a Nintendo DS along with a PSP to satiate their gaming needs.
It was a symbiotic combo.
 

Lovely Mixture

New member
Jul 12, 2011
1,474
0
0
Zachary Amaranth said:
One of the things people seem to forget, and one of the things that makes me wary of the Xbone, is Microsoft's tendency to display a strong showing of exclusives in early years and then more or less tapering off fast. One of the major reasons launches are important is they show support, which is not necessarily actually going to translate to long-term support. Sony, on the other hand, never seems to let up. There's always third party games, but they tend to be available everywhere (sans Wii U now).

Now. That's sort of tangential, but I think it goes along with what Jim's saying.

However:

Correlation does not equal causation. The Vita and WiiU have issues other than launch titles. Part of it is simply that a lot of the launch titles suck, but they don't have to. Even in a large environment. I want a lineup at launch where I can select from a series of genres, though 20 games is probably more than is necessary. I digress, however. Both the Wii U and Vita have issues in terms of being hardware people don't necessarily want and an answer to a question no-one asked. Vita was also an expensive console, especially compared to the more popular Nintendo franchise entry. All of these are bigger reasons these systems have problems.
I agree. I'd argue that Jim only meant to say they contributed to the problem these consoles have, but this point needs to be addressed.

I surmise that one of the reasons the PS3 did so well despite having an awkward line up is because it had a Blu-Ray player, ie. it had a long term investment (well before the advent of streaming technology started competing with it). Heck that's the reason Blu-Ray WON the format war, people were getting a new console AND a Blu-Ray player when they bought the PS3.

This is the problem with the PS4 and the Xbone, there's no incentive to "upgrade" now.

Dragonbums said:
Zachary Amaranth said:
subtlefuge said:
Pokemon X&Y will effectively bury the Vita. I'd be surprised if Sony doesn't bow out of the handheld market at some point soon. They can laugh at all the dumb choices they made when they're counting all their PS4 money.
They're unlikely to bow out of the handheld market based on poor performance. Look at the PSP.
I don't think the PSP did that bad.
I mean, when I was a kid it was all too common that kids would buy a Nintendo DS along with a PSP to satiate their gaming needs.
It was a symbiotic combo.
IIRC it didn't do well at first and then improved.

The DS's audience was a lot more focused while the PSP's wasn't. The PSP had the ambition of a portable media player but lacked power. It had to rely on its exclusives and video capability.
 

mike1921

New member
Oct 17, 2008
1,292
0
0
Sonic Doctor said:
Roman Monaghan said:
But isn't that the issue? It's not that we want TONS of games on a console at launch. I don't know anyone who says that (some people might, but they're stupid) It's that we want games that are actually worth playing! I mean I counted one launch game for the WiiU that was actually a new game that didn't look like complete ass, and it was ZombiU for crying out loud. The Vita had, what, AC 3 L?
That is the problem I see though. People will wait to buy a console, even if they have the money, because it only has one or two games they are interested in.

Really, one game should be enough. You get a console, play that one game to death for a few months, move onto another hobby for a few months or go back and play old games on other systems you have, and then when a new game you want to play comes out, you will be more than ready to get and play it.
Who the hell wants to play one game for months? What do you even mean by that? Replaying it over and over again? going for 100% completion which won't even take months? No If I'm going to pay launch price for a console right now, there better be more than one reason for me to play it, because one reason is not going to last me months. Time is money, paying later is generally considered an advantage and paying less is an advantage. Move on to another hobby? What if I want to play games? Who the hell wants to replay games like that?
I'm of the belief that many people wait way too long for a library of games they like to appear before they get a console. I think these people tend to be the ones that wait till that ass end of a console generation to make a choice of console, then end up complaining that the generation wasn't long enough when a year or two later a new generation is starting. "But I just got my console, and these five or so games(though dated)! They need to wait and release more games(ignoring and not taking the time to truly look at the library of thousands of games that they let wiz past them as they waited for their preferred library of games for the system to be 'worth it')."
..Who exactly waited until a year or two to get a console for a reason other than "they're cheap now because a new gen is starting"? Also: why not dig through that library of games for shit that looks interesting during those last two years? Games don't "wiz by", they're released and stay there and get CHEAPER.
Really the optimum time to get a console is between launch and just before the half-way point of the generation. That is the perfect window that then gives people time to properly look at the system they have and broaden their minds to what will be a good game to play out of the games coming out and games that have already been released in the past.
No, really the optimum time would be 10 years later when the console is cheapest, the library is full, and you can dig through that library instead of waiting. Broaden their mind? Why does a new console mean mind-broadening? It's just better hardware. I know what games look interesting to me. I have never went into a new game that didn't interest me and come out surprised, because I know what I want.
My advice to people is, if you have the money now to get the console you want, even mildly want, and it has at least one game you want to play on it, just get it now. The console generations have been getting longer and longer, and if you don't think you will get a good list of games in a 6 to 8 year span(even 3 to 4 years if bought at the midway point), I don't even know why you would even bother with gaming, because at that point, you are just too picky about what you want to play. Again broaden your gaming horizon, over time, buy a few games in some genres you aren't interested in, maybe something will stick in the mean time while you wait for the actual game you want to come out.
Why should I spend hundreds of dollars for one game and wait time? What if the next game that comes out that I really want comes out when the console is cheaper? Don't forget, PC gaming exists, a lot of those games are multiplatform titles that will be just as good if not better on PC.

My advice to people is: If you just mildly want a console: Wait until a game makes you really want it or just buy it in 10 years. If 360 didn't get Tales of Vesperia the 360 still wouldn't be worth it to me, I would regret having bought the console so many years ago if it weren't for the fluke ToV (which is my all time favorite game), I looked through it's entire list of exclusives. there's like 4-5 games there that look worth playing.
 

ellieallegro

New member
Mar 8, 2013
69
0
0
Yeah, good luck with that. Consistency would require long-term critical thinking and delayed gratification. Two things which are wholly un-american.
 

Vylox

New member
May 3, 2013
79
0
0
Its like going to a nice restaurant for an expensive dinner.. you get a starter, then an appetizer then the main course, maybe a soup or small salad after and then desert.

With a large launch library, the companies are selling the console (starter or appetizer) and then putting the main course and desert on the table at the same time.. and I'm it sure about you, but I don't want my ice-cream on the table while I try to enjoy the bread sticks and steak.


A strong overall release line-up is a much better investment, because it will ensure (hopefully) some kind of continued loyalty and support, and all but guarantee future sales as those who aren't interested in the initial offerings come late to the party by examining the menu.

And its not like they don't know what they are pushing out next year or so, considering that those games are likely in development right now, hell even some games that might be as far as 3 years away from launch are likely in development right now (especially if its a square-enix title) so they (MS and or Sony) could easily dangle those titles in front of folx in order to generate future sales and residual and recurring income. And I'm not talking about showing off the next Halo or Madden or CoD or even Final Fantasy... but the real forthcoming games for these consoles.
 

Something Amyss

Aswyng and Amyss
Dec 3, 2008
24,759
0
0
Lovely Mixture said:
I agree. I'd argue that Jim only meant to say they contributed to the problem these consoles have, but this point needs to be addressed.
Very possibly.

I surmise that one of the reasons the PS3 did so well despite having an awkward line up is because it had a Blu-Ray player, ie. it had a long term investment (well before the advent of streaming technology started competing with it). Heck that's the reason Blu-Ray WON the format war, people were getting a new console AND a Blu-Ray player when they bought the PS3.

This is the problem with the PS4 and the Xbone, there's no incentive to "upgrade" now.
And even the PS3's sales were considered kind of sluggish early on.

However, this is a strategy that was more or less acknowledged by Tretton and company on multiple occasions. They commented that there were people buying it even if they were buying no games, and investor material discussed the format war HEAVILY. I think they were prepared to gamble away the future of the PS line to install BD as the standard format for HD discs.

Dragonbums said:
I don't think the PSP did that bad.
In short:

Lovely Mixture said:
IIRC it didn't do well at first and then improved.
The longer version is that the PSP was originally considered disappointing and relied on multiple revisions and pricings in order to become what one MIGHT consider a success. It's initial result wasn't much different compared to the Vita. As it relates to the guy I was quoting, its status as a success is somewhat debatable by the standards of the company that is supposedly going to bow out of the market when Pokémon "buries" them.
 

ShadowHamster

New member
Mar 17, 2008
64
0
0
CriticKitten said:
Hard to argue with your point this week, but I'm going to try.

I don't mind a strong launch library, and I don't think it's the launch library that's the core problem. Every console suffers from a great number of "meh" or outright shitty games across its long lifespan. A majority of a console's game will never be played by the average consumer, ever, nor should they probably exist at all. That isn't just limited to the launch in particular. So only releasing a few games at a time doesn't fix the problem so much as spread it out across several months, and that won't solve the problem of having "no games" either.

What really needs to be done is for people's standards to increase, more than anything else. If we demand better games and stop buying bad ones, they'll have to start making better games. It's our tolerance for bullshit that's the problem. If we accept that every console's going to have a lot of shitty games and only a few good ones, and don't actively try to push the industry to do better, then they'll just keep on doing what they're doing and we'll be barraged with shitty games and only a handful of solid ones.

In this respect I give Nintendo props. They're taking their time on making sure their newest games are really good ones, rather than crapping out mediocre or bad ones at a rapid pace. Of course, by the time the good stuff comes out, it might have already been too little, too late. Time will tell.

Captcha: can I love?

Thanks to the defeat of DOMA, you can. Thank Jim for DOMA's defeat!
My roommate owns a wii u and it's the most played system in the house. I own a PS3 and am not ready to jump that particular bandwagon, and have enough games to still keep me busy for another year or so. I think your right, but I think Jim is getting to that point. His point is that these companies are PRESSURING the producers, which in turn causes untested glitches and shoddy design all around, whereas giving people time to get their vision across would lead to honestly good games, even though there would be fewer of them.

Your both preaching quality over quantity, witch is something the whole damn world needs to relearn.
 

Adventurer2626

New member
Jan 21, 2010
713
0
0
Mord says:

[http://imageshack.us/photo/my-images/22/r0bw.png/]

Uploaded with ImageShack.us [http://imageshack.us]

Also:
Thank Jim! Thank Jim!
 

KiKiweaky

New member
Aug 29, 2008
972
0
0
Irridium said:
Oh those look like some nice games, when people say ip's relating to computer games do they mean intellectual property or are they trying to say something else?

Some of the game clips you used in this video Jim look outstanding D:
 
Apr 28, 2008
14,634
0
0
KiKiweaky said:
Irridium said:
Oh those look like some nice games, when people say ip's relating to computer games do they mean intellectual property or are they trying to say something else?

Some of the game clips you used in this video Jim look outstanding D:
Generally people mean a game that isn't a sequel or based on an existing property when they say new IP.
 

KiKiweaky

New member
Aug 29, 2008
972
0
0
Irridium said:
KiKiweaky said:
Irridium said:
snip
Generally people mean a game that isn't a sequel or based on an existing property when they say new IP.
Thanks for clearing that up, the captcha I have to type says 'you rock' haha :D

Saw it all over the place and didn't have a clue what it meant.
 

finalizer

New member
Aug 13, 2010
17
0
0
loa said:
Backwards compatibility creates a strong launch lineup but I guess that's just really backwards nowadays.
Backwards compatibility just isn't feasible. The only ways to do it are either

1. Adding the old hardware to the new console ala the initial run of PS3s. Unless you want to add an extra $100+ to the cost of the unit (and this is just an assumption - it could be a lot more), and force a larger, hotter unit into the equation, it's just not gonna work. Sony kind of shot themselves in the foot by using this method for the PS2's BC with PS1 software - it only worked then because the PS1's hardware was so simplistic by comparison. As the future generations got hardware that was more complicated and expensive, this avenue of backward compatibility just wasn't sustainable in the long-run.

2. Software emulation. Like it's been mentioned in threads past, this is also not feasible in the immediate future. PS1 emulation is fine, but PS2 emulation is flaky - it already takes i7s to get a PS2 emulator running on desktop PCs without fiddling around with a bunch of speedhacks and work-arounds. (And even then it's not foolproof - there's still some games outright incompatible with the emulators) To say nothing of the monumental requirements it would take to emulate something like the PS3; that's just completely out of the question. PS4 hardware might be up to snuff for PS2 emulation considering that it's a closed hardware platform, but that's still a lot of work to guarantee every game would run well with it, bearing in mind that the concessions given to a fan-driven emulation project will never be afforded to a corporation like Sony.

So yeah, don't expect to see backward compatibility on consoles going forward. At this point, I'm just curious to see how Sony handles the whole Gaikai thing, to see if that'll help solve the BC dilemma.
 

Roman Monaghan

New member
Nov 20, 2010
101
0
0
Sonic Doctor said:
Roman Monaghan said:
But isn't that the issue? It's not that we want TONS of games on a console at launch. I don't know anyone who says that (some people might, but they're stupid) It's that we want games that are actually worth playing! I mean I counted one launch game for the WiiU that was actually a new game that didn't look like complete ass, and it was ZombiU for crying out loud. The Vita had, what, AC 3 L?
That is the problem I see though. People will wait to buy a console, even if they have the money, because it only has one or two games they are interested in.

Really, one game should be enough. You get a console, play that one game to death for a few months, move onto another hobby for a few months or go back and play old games on other systems you have, and then when a new game you want to play comes out, you will be more than ready to get and play it.

I'm of the belief that many people wait way too long for a library of games they like to appear before they get a console. I think these people tend to be the ones that wait till that ass end of a console generation to make a choice of console, then end up complaining that the generation wasn't long enough when a year or two later a new generation is starting. "But I just got my console, and these five or so games(though dated)! They need to wait and release more games(ignoring and not taking the time to truly look at the library of thousands of games that they let wiz past them as they waited for their preferred library of games for the system to be 'worth it')."

Really the optimum time to get a console is between launch and just before the half-way point of the generation. That is the perfect window that then gives people time to properly look at the system they have and broaden their minds to what will be a good game to play out of the games coming out and games that have already been released in the past.

My advice to people is, if you have the money now to get the console you want, even mildly want, and it has at least one game you want to play on it, just get it now. The console generations have been getting longer and longer, and if you don't think you will get a good list of games in a 6 to 8 year span(even 3 to 4 years if bought at the midway point), I don't even know why you would even bother with gaming, because at that point, you are just too picky about what you want to play. Again broaden your gaming horizon, over time, buy a few games in some genres you aren't interested in, maybe something will stick in the mean time while you wait for the actual game you want to come out.
Are we doing this before or after buying a fifth Lamborghini, because in your retarded fantasy suggestion everyone is rich and can just drop 3-5 hundred dollars willy nilly for a console they're barely going to touch for longer then a month and can afford a totally pointless and useless purchase like it's just a drop in the bucket.

People like you are the ones running these companies and it's also the same reason the AAA industry is going to fucking crash pretty soon, and with a fucked up mindset like this, I can't say I'm not looking forward to it.
 

Petromir

New member
Apr 10, 2010
593
0
0
I'm not sure that I entirely agree.

While a steady flow of games after launch is important, too few games at launch restricts that most vital of things, choice. The reason the flow works and consoles continue to sell is because of choice, so limiting that artificially at launch isn't wise.

Mostly delaying games from launch just spreads the shit ones out. Most of the good games that used the console better that come out post launch are ones that even the most craven publisher wouldn't have released around launch, and were rushed to make the windows they did make it into. Often they were made by teams who had made at least one game for launch and possibly several after. That cycle should hopefully be shorter as the PS4 and XBox One are essentially locked down PCs so the time to get togrips with their power should be shorter.