It's really odd that Aliens: Colonial Marines doesn't have female characters for multi-player. Sigourney Weaver is 6 feet tall, so it would have been easy to put an accurate character model of her in the Aliens game while still keeping the same hit box size as the male characters.
Jimquisition: Let's End the FPS Sausage-fest
- Thread starter Jimothy Sterling
- Start date
I mean for all of the "realism" these games propose to present the lack of women on the battlefield is strange, considering it is the 21st century. But at the same time, the way that politics have been lately, with scapegoats and villains dominating issues (rather than the issues themselves) and all of the back peddling on so many issues we've been making it would not, in the slightest, surprise me to see a future where women are broodmares to provide soldiers to the state to go off and fight our many, pointless wars for our corporate overlords.
I suppose if you have as much "faith" in mankind as I do the very fact that colonial marines suggests that humans are even still alive a few thousand years in the future makes it utter fantasy while the aliens, cryo-sleep and other sci-fi elements are entirely plausible.
I'm not saying any of this makes any of it ok, mind you. I actually hope that having more women as main characters could lead to some new styles of narrative, rather than all of the crappy, military revenge porn we see these days. Ideally something more mature than "She almost gets raped because she's weak and pathetic and nothing like the old, ass kicking take on the character so you want to protect her and help her escape the island."
I suppose if you have as much "faith" in mankind as I do the very fact that colonial marines suggests that humans are even still alive a few thousand years in the future makes it utter fantasy while the aliens, cryo-sleep and other sci-fi elements are entirely plausible.
I'm not saying any of this makes any of it ok, mind you. I actually hope that having more women as main characters could lead to some new styles of narrative, rather than all of the crappy, military revenge porn we see these days. Ideally something more mature than "She almost gets raped because she's weak and pathetic and nothing like the old, ass kicking take on the character so you want to protect her and help her escape the island."
TF2 has a rock, paper, scissors class approach to it's game balance. Most shooters don't. Everybody is supposedly on the same level. your argument is invalidSnakeoilSage said:
When you say toon do you refer to games that let you create your character (Bioware games) or that offer different premade characters of different sexes? (Dead Island)Mylinkay Asdara said:
I don't like the argument that game forces you to play as Nathan Drake or Kratos. It's like saying a movie forces its protagonist onto you. Since games are becoming more like movies and made with that mindset, and AAA games are risk averse we always get our Michael Bay protagonists.
Technologically it's not currently feasible to have the choice of playing as Nathan and Natalie Drake since the Uncharted games for instance are highly cinematic (Have plenty of pre-rendered cut scenes) and disc memory wouldn't be enough to fit all the content for the male and female protagonist plus the game's budget would skyrocket.
Of course this doesn't mean that there shouldn't be the choose your sex option in any game, only games that aren't highly cinematic, of which they are many.
Another option is doing it the JRPG way and have both men and women in the party without a clear protagonist among the group. Like Final Fantasy VI.
Doesn't the Bible refer to god as a He and as the LORD (The male version of a lady, though Fire Emblem has female lords so...) and as creating Adam in his image, meaning chest hair, beard, and a dong. Or was this all additions made by the King James version?Imp Emissary said:ex275w said:You're practice futility friend! God is omnipotent, and beyond comprehension. Only nothing is omnipotent and you can't see nothing. That means he, she, it, and they are all "correct" and "incorrect" pronouns to use on God. God is a woman, a man, a genderless thingy, and a group of creatures all at once and yet not at all.
<_< But I can't picture that in my head, let alone describe it.
Also, so we stay with the topic; Not having playable women in shooters is crap, realism is a poor excuse (especially when we have soldiers fighting unmaned four legged walking tanks), and strangely Jim is a pretty lady.
I guess if you want Dog to look like Steve Buscemi or Salma Hayek you have the right, I was just going by what I know from the Bible.
Also why do games use realism to justify laziness? Realism is supposed to add different mechanics and not remove options from games. As long as it's believable (doesn't break the rules the game sets) I'll think God of War is real.
gotta ask, hows that a bad thing? the spartan armor is designed to be functional (for that universe) not sexyBindal said:
Bravo, I usually yell "poppy cock!" at these types of points but you have a talent for broadening my perspectives.
Ladies are totally in on the FPS genre and I always remember them being there... since the Quake days at least. My ex fiance played Bad Company 2 with me all the time and she was very good. She too would complain some times about having to play with a male model. On Black Ops I totally got my ass handed to me over and over by a certain female. I was even thinking then, that it would have been cool if the model matched the voice that was talking all that shit to me. The point you made about Alien is spot on for sure. The only Alien game I remember playing a female, that being Ripley was in Alien 3 for SNES.
Last Note: Killzone 2/3 would have been bad-ass with female models.
Ladies are totally in on the FPS genre and I always remember them being there... since the Quake days at least. My ex fiance played Bad Company 2 with me all the time and she was very good. She too would complain some times about having to play with a male model. On Black Ops I totally got my ass handed to me over and over by a certain female. I was even thinking then, that it would have been cool if the model matched the voice that was talking all that shit to me. The point you made about Alien is spot on for sure. The only Alien game I remember playing a female, that being Ripley was in Alien 3 for SNES.
Last Note: Killzone 2/3 would have been bad-ass with female models.
(This is a long one so grab some water)
Speaking as someone who was in the U.S. Army, and on top of that, in a unit that had women serving in a front line combat capacity (MP Combat Battalion, every female soldier, and male for that matter, in my Company had a CAB) I can say, at least in "Modern" FPS's (Call of Duty and it's ilk) that women have absolutely no place as a player character.
Fact of the matter is, almost all of these modern setting FPS's involve the player being part of, or something there equivalent to, a Special Operations Troop. There are no special operations troops in the world that employ women in Combat roles. That's not conjecture, that's a fact. Women DO serve in U.S. Army Special Forces, MARSOC, NAVSPECGRU, as well as many foreign Special Operations Units such as English SAS and SBS, however only in clerical or administrative positions. Even the Russian military, who has historically been the most open to allowing women to serve in "traditional" male roles (Russian being one of the few countries to have multiple female fighter Ace's, EXTREMELY proficient snipers, and female chiefs of staff) To put it simply, women do not kick down doors in Special Operations. And, for the foreseeable future, they won't.
There are a variety of reasons, some range from as innocuous as ability for a special operations troop to blend in with their surrounding (a female soldier would stand out quite a bit more in Kandahar trying to gain intelligence from a local clan) to as extreme as WHY women are not allowed in front line infantry units. It is funny, even within the military it is not... often explained *why* women are NOT allowed in true front line units (In the Army's case that would be Combat MOS's in Combat Arm's branches (Infantry, Armor, ect). As far as the U.S. Military (and English Military although they have an extra reason) is concerned there are two critical reasons why women are prohibited from these positions:
1) Women, baring the rare exceptions, have grossly different physical and hygienic demands that are not conducive to a front line Infantry unit. If a male soldier goes 3 months without showering and at best changing/washing clothes once a week, in all likelihood he will be physically fine. Probably not happy, nor anyone catching a whiff of him, but he will not develop (baring open wounds or something of that nature) an infection PURELY from not showering/changing clothes (I can speak from personal experience on two tours on this). A female, without being overly graphic, cannot. They will develop specific infections that are unique to their gender due to lack of hygiene. Hygiene is important in the field, but to many degree's it goes by the wayside.
Additionally women, baring the rare exception, can't meet the same physical requirement. That's a data supported fact in the U.S. Military and the English military. Women even have separate physical standards in the U.S. Military that are VERY much different from the males (for example, on the Army APFT in the 17-21 age range, the female 2Mile run time of 15:36 is a 100% score, while the same time for a male equals a 64, just 5 points shy of failing the exam, what this is in essence saying is the absolute best score time for a woman in the Army is just BARELY passing for a male) These score discrepancies don't exist to make it easier for women, nor do women pass the APFT in a far greater percentage. In actuality, the pass/fail ratio is relatively similar between both genders. Women simply are not as strong as men. Period. We're different, what a surprise. However that degree of difference, while not a problem in everyday life, or even clerical/administrative duties in the military, both are a far cry from front line service such as infantry. NOW take it to the next point, given this is about games and games are almost always about Special Operations, Special Operations universally have DRASTICALLY higher physical requirements than any regular military. They in fact are SO high, that barely 1% (was like .96% or something last time I saw the statistic) of the U.S. Army, male or female, can consistently make the standard.
So in summation of that, not only can women not meet the "bare" minimum of standard physical requirements, there is in no way shape or form, that they could meet the physical requirements of a Special Operations troop.
2) This is the most unknown, but not hidden though, reason, and that is physiological, and not in the way you'd think. this ALSO is the reason there was resistance to repealing don't ask don't tell. Why no 4 star ever mentioned it in the press is beyond me as it is a fairly... logical reason to bar both homosexuals and women at least in frontline combat units.
Men have a natural urge to protect. This is a biological fact. Those rare individuals that don't are the exception, not the rule. In the military, this holds true. However the urge to protect a battle buddy and perhaps, someone you're attract too, are drastically different. In the military there is one thing held above all else; the mission. Absolutely nothing can come between the soldier and the mission. No danger, no person. Only a threat to the mission itself can cause pause. This is paramount and when you become an officer this is drilled home all the more clear. Personal relationships CANNOT be allowed to come between the soldier and the mission.
What this means is a soldier cannot allow himself to be in a position where they choose to save a friend/romantic interest over completing a mission. Period. End of story. Black and white (in this rare time, the world is no gray). Now a group of straight men, or for that matter, a group of straight women, this problem won't arise, however if you mix units, or have homosexuals involved, then a problem can ensue. We've all been attracted to SOMEONE at a job or school before. Can anyone honestly say that did not effect their work behavior and perhaps even how hard they worked a company or school goal? Even something as simple of skipping a class to be around that individual or rushed paperwork at a job to finish early or took an extra long lunch break, or even just being distracted. While... understandable (and even perhaps tolerable) in the regular world, this is absolutely UNACCEPTABLE in the military. As an MP, and our unit being COED, I saw how this *did* cause regular issues, both in and out of the field. It is a TRUE problem and MP's are relatively small units. I can only image the problems that could happen in a large Infantry battalion.
You couple this with the scientific fact that men have an urge to protect women, and there is a spell for disaster. To return to the idea of all women units, that in theory could work 100% fine in say a regular infantry unit, but keeping in mind the overarching theme here of women in the military IN games, this does not work. As said, even few MALES can attain the necessary physical skills, and qualifications to obtain Special Operations quality, and granting that the exceptional female may have that ability, there is not enough of either to attempt to have an all female special operations troop. The Russians tried that once with the NKVD, and I suppose the Amazonian guard might qualify (although I would question whether or not they were as qualified as say, a member of the British SAS, or German KSK)
So if you followed me through this, (long read I apologize) those are the two key reasons right now women are not allowed in "simple" infantry units. To make the next step to Special Operations is just impossible in the world as we know it now. Drastic technology or necessity is all that could change that at this point.
Now to tie it all into the grander topic, in "modern" setting FPS's, women cannot be player characters. At least in any section involving the "classic" idea of what a modern FPS is suppose to be (kicking down doors, setting charges, special insertions/infiltrations)
That said you *could* have women in a modern setting FPS however it would not be like any other FPS as it would have to involve being part of a VERY different military group than Special Operations. For example in the case of the U.S. Military, for all intents and purposes (baring a few, isolated exceptions) the only roles women can take on that also tend to involve "true" combat are MP's (and their Air Force, Marine, and Naval equivalents) SeaBee's in the Navy, a few jobs for female's in the Artillery, combat pilots, and, at least in the U.S. Army, a few jobs in the Ordinance branch and Chemical Branch can involve combat operations (and said jobs are open to females).
And to be fair, a videogame about being an MP in Iraq would be interesting (and I'd buy it in a heartbeat, but it would be relatively boring as standing in/next to a Humvee for an hour then a small firefight then returning to FOB, rinse, repeat ad-nasum, would be a really boring game.
AND this is all assuming that whatever pretense of "realism" the developer is trying to maintain even cares about any of this to start.
Speaking as someone who was in the U.S. Army, and on top of that, in a unit that had women serving in a front line combat capacity (MP Combat Battalion, every female soldier, and male for that matter, in my Company had a CAB) I can say, at least in "Modern" FPS's (Call of Duty and it's ilk) that women have absolutely no place as a player character.
Fact of the matter is, almost all of these modern setting FPS's involve the player being part of, or something there equivalent to, a Special Operations Troop. There are no special operations troops in the world that employ women in Combat roles. That's not conjecture, that's a fact. Women DO serve in U.S. Army Special Forces, MARSOC, NAVSPECGRU, as well as many foreign Special Operations Units such as English SAS and SBS, however only in clerical or administrative positions. Even the Russian military, who has historically been the most open to allowing women to serve in "traditional" male roles (Russian being one of the few countries to have multiple female fighter Ace's, EXTREMELY proficient snipers, and female chiefs of staff) To put it simply, women do not kick down doors in Special Operations. And, for the foreseeable future, they won't.
There are a variety of reasons, some range from as innocuous as ability for a special operations troop to blend in with their surrounding (a female soldier would stand out quite a bit more in Kandahar trying to gain intelligence from a local clan) to as extreme as WHY women are not allowed in front line infantry units. It is funny, even within the military it is not... often explained *why* women are NOT allowed in true front line units (In the Army's case that would be Combat MOS's in Combat Arm's branches (Infantry, Armor, ect). As far as the U.S. Military (and English Military although they have an extra reason) is concerned there are two critical reasons why women are prohibited from these positions:
1) Women, baring the rare exceptions, have grossly different physical and hygienic demands that are not conducive to a front line Infantry unit. If a male soldier goes 3 months without showering and at best changing/washing clothes once a week, in all likelihood he will be physically fine. Probably not happy, nor anyone catching a whiff of him, but he will not develop (baring open wounds or something of that nature) an infection PURELY from not showering/changing clothes (I can speak from personal experience on two tours on this). A female, without being overly graphic, cannot. They will develop specific infections that are unique to their gender due to lack of hygiene. Hygiene is important in the field, but to many degree's it goes by the wayside.
Additionally women, baring the rare exception, can't meet the same physical requirement. That's a data supported fact in the U.S. Military and the English military. Women even have separate physical standards in the U.S. Military that are VERY much different from the males (for example, on the Army APFT in the 17-21 age range, the female 2Mile run time of 15:36 is a 100% score, while the same time for a male equals a 64, just 5 points shy of failing the exam, what this is in essence saying is the absolute best score time for a woman in the Army is just BARELY passing for a male) These score discrepancies don't exist to make it easier for women, nor do women pass the APFT in a far greater percentage. In actuality, the pass/fail ratio is relatively similar between both genders. Women simply are not as strong as men. Period. We're different, what a surprise. However that degree of difference, while not a problem in everyday life, or even clerical/administrative duties in the military, both are a far cry from front line service such as infantry. NOW take it to the next point, given this is about games and games are almost always about Special Operations, Special Operations universally have DRASTICALLY higher physical requirements than any regular military. They in fact are SO high, that barely 1% (was like .96% or something last time I saw the statistic) of the U.S. Army, male or female, can consistently make the standard.
So in summation of that, not only can women not meet the "bare" minimum of standard physical requirements, there is in no way shape or form, that they could meet the physical requirements of a Special Operations troop.
2) This is the most unknown, but not hidden though, reason, and that is physiological, and not in the way you'd think. this ALSO is the reason there was resistance to repealing don't ask don't tell. Why no 4 star ever mentioned it in the press is beyond me as it is a fairly... logical reason to bar both homosexuals and women at least in frontline combat units.
Men have a natural urge to protect. This is a biological fact. Those rare individuals that don't are the exception, not the rule. In the military, this holds true. However the urge to protect a battle buddy and perhaps, someone you're attract too, are drastically different. In the military there is one thing held above all else; the mission. Absolutely nothing can come between the soldier and the mission. No danger, no person. Only a threat to the mission itself can cause pause. This is paramount and when you become an officer this is drilled home all the more clear. Personal relationships CANNOT be allowed to come between the soldier and the mission.
What this means is a soldier cannot allow himself to be in a position where they choose to save a friend/romantic interest over completing a mission. Period. End of story. Black and white (in this rare time, the world is no gray). Now a group of straight men, or for that matter, a group of straight women, this problem won't arise, however if you mix units, or have homosexuals involved, then a problem can ensue. We've all been attracted to SOMEONE at a job or school before. Can anyone honestly say that did not effect their work behavior and perhaps even how hard they worked a company or school goal? Even something as simple of skipping a class to be around that individual or rushed paperwork at a job to finish early or took an extra long lunch break, or even just being distracted. While... understandable (and even perhaps tolerable) in the regular world, this is absolutely UNACCEPTABLE in the military. As an MP, and our unit being COED, I saw how this *did* cause regular issues, both in and out of the field. It is a TRUE problem and MP's are relatively small units. I can only image the problems that could happen in a large Infantry battalion.
You couple this with the scientific fact that men have an urge to protect women, and there is a spell for disaster. To return to the idea of all women units, that in theory could work 100% fine in say a regular infantry unit, but keeping in mind the overarching theme here of women in the military IN games, this does not work. As said, even few MALES can attain the necessary physical skills, and qualifications to obtain Special Operations quality, and granting that the exceptional female may have that ability, there is not enough of either to attempt to have an all female special operations troop. The Russians tried that once with the NKVD, and I suppose the Amazonian guard might qualify (although I would question whether or not they were as qualified as say, a member of the British SAS, or German KSK)
So if you followed me through this, (long read I apologize) those are the two key reasons right now women are not allowed in "simple" infantry units. To make the next step to Special Operations is just impossible in the world as we know it now. Drastic technology or necessity is all that could change that at this point.
Now to tie it all into the grander topic, in "modern" setting FPS's, women cannot be player characters. At least in any section involving the "classic" idea of what a modern FPS is suppose to be (kicking down doors, setting charges, special insertions/infiltrations)
That said you *could* have women in a modern setting FPS however it would not be like any other FPS as it would have to involve being part of a VERY different military group than Special Operations. For example in the case of the U.S. Military, for all intents and purposes (baring a few, isolated exceptions) the only roles women can take on that also tend to involve "true" combat are MP's (and their Air Force, Marine, and Naval equivalents) SeaBee's in the Navy, a few jobs for female's in the Artillery, combat pilots, and, at least in the U.S. Army, a few jobs in the Ordinance branch and Chemical Branch can involve combat operations (and said jobs are open to females).
And to be fair, a videogame about being an MP in Iraq would be interesting (and I'd buy it in a heartbeat, but it would be relatively boring as standing in/next to a Humvee for an hour then a small firefight then returning to FOB, rinse, repeat ad-nasum, would be a really boring game.
AND this is all assuming that whatever pretense of "realism" the developer is trying to maintain even cares about any of this to start.
I would love Jim to go radical in my bed, together, naked. It's just that s/he reminded me of Andrea Dworkin, who was a radical feminist.Vampire cat said:
Still, maybe Jim should've had a woman present the show, only she would be speaking in Jim Sterling's voice, due to the power of video editing.
Well said, Halo Reach had female models and I never noticed the difference in gameplay/hitboxes.
Awesome points for sure but I have to lean on games being made for fantasy. Even so called "realistic", "tactical" shooters are feeding you some fantastic stories to play in. A special Ops type of single player story that is based in the present is understandable from a male perspective but multi-player can be flexible enough to accommodate a female player. What about a game like Deus Ex? A female option would of rocked it.RC1138 said:
Never said it's bad - it's actually proving the point, that to make a female model doesn't require a serious change in model, just a minor one and maybe a slight different animation when idle and maybe walking (not running). A female model doesn't have to be "sexy" at all - just clearly more feminine than the male counterpart. And Reach shows, how you can do it without really spending much resources on an entirely new model.Lunar Templar said:
I was speaking purely on the concept of modern setting (that is to say, 1975-2012) FPS that take place in OUR world. Things like futuristic or even straight up fantasy (Bioshock comes to mind) is a whole different thing and WAY past anything I'm talking about.liam_whinery said:
Basically if the phrase "Call of Duty clone" (or CoD itself) is involved in a games general description then women *should not* be the player character.
On that note, I should point out that a secondary charterer in WH40K: Space Marine was a Female Guardsman. Also, every Farseer I can remember in Dawn of War has been female, with no exceptions (though with the ridiculous voice synthesizer, I'm wondering if we should use the term for a Female Robot instead X3)el_kabong said:
CAPATCHA: Fancy Pants. Clearly this is what the Capatcha thinks of Jim in this episode X3
It wasn't intended to be bad at all. I only mentioned that Jim kinda forgot that Halo has been doing the female soldiers for a while, even in the first game. They started getting playable at Halo 3.undeadsuitor said: