Jimquisition: Lugoscababib Discobiscuits

[Endocrom]

Somebody has to do it:

Ludo! Call the Rocks!

 

[TheSKSpecial]

Lugoscababib Discobiscuits

This week, Jim loads his gun and shoots holes in the argument that certain games suffer from ludonarrative dissonance, just because they're violent.

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Oh man, speaking of people automatically dismissing violence, have you read greg tito's GTA V review? Oh yeah, how dare a GTA game be violent.

I just read that and...really couldn't quite believe it. I have to wonder if Greg has ever played a GTA game before? It's a series based on jumping into cars, mowing down pedestrians on the sidewalk before picking up a hooker, screwing her in a back alley, then beating her with a baseball bat to get your money back once you're finished. In other words: GTA is a series based on over-the-top violence. I get the feeling that Greg's the type of player that always drives on the road and stops for every stoplight when he plays GTA.

Oh, and Jim....that really is a damn fine suit you've got there.

Er...he wasn't complaining about the violence itself, he was complaining about the narrative and the characters being unlikeable dicks. Yeah, the series has always been about violence, but at the very least the characters back then had some positives about them that kinda sorta gave them some appeal. Now you're playing as violent, unlikeable dicks that are violent and unlikeable dicks for the sake of being violent unlikeable dicks.

Now, you may say, that's the hallmark of the crime genre Grand Theft Auto spawned, at least in videogames. But some of the events and missions of Grand Theft Auto V feel more malicious and, well, evil, than the comparatively light-hearted violence of most games, the recent Saints Row 4 being a perfect example. What's missing in GTA V's story is a sense that the characters have been painted into a corner by various machinations beyond their control, like Niko Bellic of GTA IV, or must commit their crimes to mete out justice, as Tommy Vercetti does in Vice City. The three main characters of GTAV do terrible things merely to get paid, and deserve no sympathy. There's no drive in them even to be the best at what they do, the last American value we afford criminals, but rather they commit these crimes with no lifeline thrown to the audience to pull us along in supporting them.

 

[Soak]

Whaaaaa? An episode not about gender- or developing-stuff, is that a thing now? Beware, you might offend your long term-fans by presenting new topics .
Sarcasm aside, good episode.

However, while i agree with your point in general, that sometimes words can be used falsly (ew, shit happens to me all the time, but often i'm able to clarify rather soon), i disagree with some specific points, mainly regarding the dicsussion about Infinite.
In particular, the dissonance of Booker "scavanging" garbage from the streets of Columbia was often mentioned by many in those discussions, but most of the time seen as a minor gameplay issue compared to what i saw as actually critisized about the combat in Infinite.
As i see it, at least the critisism of most gamers was neither the quality of violance presented - at least not for me, on the contrary, i was positively impressed how the game managed to present the cruelty throughout the course of the game, starting with the decent placement of the dead person in the lighthouse, over the first actual "action sequence" at the raffle, in a way getting more intense throughout the game - and i'd say, nor with the "quantity" as such, but more how shallow and "stupid" it is implemented in the game, mostly resulting in predictable and repetitive encounters, which, pared with the quantity, become increasingly tedious.
And that comes along with some other issues, already mentioned all over the Escapist-Forums.
And in the discissions i had about the topic, i neither used, nor read the term of legowhiskers dribbleboosters - at least not until now, but sad truth, i'm not able to keep track of every game-related discussion to begin with.

Buuuuuut, as i would never dare to question or even speak against you, once more i bow and call "amen" to your presentation and thank god for you, Jim .

 

[leviadragon99]

Huh, I wasn't even aware that misuse was happening... guess it never goes out of style for people to misuse fancy terminology.

 

[daxterx2005]

That is quite a spiffy coat you have there, Jim.

 

[Guitarmasterx7]

Generally agreed with all points presented here. Though on the subject of bioshock, I don't think the violence was the problem, it just seems like gameplay wise it was just kind of a bland FPS. For a game that has such an emphasis on world-building I think it had some missed potential. It could have used more moments like the train station, where maybe you can talk your way out of situations or even get violent when the other party has their guard down. For a narrative that was so layered and interesting, the core gameplay felt shallow by comparison. I don't think it contradicts the narrative, just that it isn't on par with it.

 

[Marley]

If you cut the intros and outros out of these videos I might be able to stand this guy. Every time I hear them I want to punch something.

 

[Gulandro]

I think the problem was with these games that they were hard to dislike in public when came out. The sheer fandom that covered there was simply offending anyone, who disliked any aspects of there "masterpieces". I think that's why they people tried another alternative to express their dislike, through this funny words. But there is such a thing, speaking of the problem, like in GTA IV the protagonist constantly struggling with his old angry self and saying to violence which doesn't really support the typical GTA gameplay.

 

[Pebkio]

Yeah, well, I've always said I don't like Bioshock Infinite because it took the coolest. concept. ever. and turned it into yet another combat-heavy plodathon. The only reason why anyone gives it the time of day is because it had a convoluted story. But I, as a regular hater of Steven Moffat, thought it was the bad kind of convoluted that used contradictions and unexplained plot-holes to appear deep and complicated. But more to the point, the GAME part of the game was slow, straight-forward, and pretty halo-ish.

Not that I'm saying I cared that there was too much violence... I care more that it was a samey tsunami of violence.

Also: What's the Luto thing? This is, very honestly, the first time I've heard that label.

 

[Deathfish15]

Best example of "Ludonarrative Dissonance" that I can bring up is GW2. The whole time during the actual gameplay of the story arch, the player is doing the dirty work of saving everyone, killing Zhaitan, and so on. However, the entirety of the story has the player as a 2nd fiddle to some twig POS named "Trahern" who takes all the credit and the rest of the NPC's cheer for saving everyone and everything for. So back and forth between gameplay and cutscenes one is saying "Trahern did everything" and the other is saying "the player did everything"

 

[Pebkio]

Best example of "Ludonarrative Dissonance" that I can bring up is GW2. The whole time during the actual gameplay of the story arch, the player is doing the dirty work of saving everyone, killing Zhaitan, and so on. However, the entirety of the story has the player as a 2nd fiddle to some twig POS named "Trahern" who takes all the credit and the rest of the NPC's cheer for saving everyone and everything for. So back and forth between gameplay and cutscenes one is saying "Trahern did everything" and the other is saying "the player did everything"

Yeah, no, that crap can happen in real life. In fact, that's not a disconnect at all. The only kind of disconnects this Luto thing would apply to is a dissonence between motivations and actions or atmosphere and actions. You know... a character who, in every cutscene, talks about how they hate most everyone alive but then the game rewards you for helping strangers. Or a game that's trying to set up an atmosphere of oppressive horror and then gives you an AK 47 with 360 rounds.

But a situation where some blowhard takes credit for the work you're doing? Not this Psuedo-Science Lutoism.

 

[TheLion]

My problem with Bioshock Infinite is that it didn't have the violence we were promised. In the 2010 demo, Booker walks into a bar serving well-dressed, and supposedly respectable patrons. A couple seconds later, he finds himself on the wrong side of a lynch mob. That is what violence in America was like 100 years ago; an outward veneer of normality and respectability hiding an oppressive culture that reacts with extreme violence on every level when the status quo is challenged. There are parts of the game that handle violence very well: the Raffle Fair baseball stoning; The Fraternity of the Raven area; The self-immolation of that woman on Comstock's airship; the shoot-out at Battleship Bay; the Hall of Heroes interior, especially the introduction of the Motorized Patriot and "dealing" with Slate; Booker's Audition at Fink's Good Time Club; The Battle for Fink Factory; and finally, Emporia and Comstock House are almost beyond reproach. The rest of the gunfights with the Founders and the Vox Populi simply feel like filling, as if the game is afraid that we'd get bored if we aren't slinging lead in every section of the game, which is a shame because all that room could have allowed the player to make his/her own mark in Columbia, like aiding the postman in the 2011 demo (even if it doesn't change the core narrative, it would have aided in selling the deception and granted the player agency), or at least an endless lynch mob or two.

Also, the Heavy Hitters weren't done as well as I hoped they would be. The Motorized Patriot shows up too often, the Handyman doesn't show up often enough, but when he does there's no warning and he always has backup he doesn't need, and the Boys of Silence? Good God why! The Siren was awesome though.

 

[1337mokro]

I think you meant perpetrator not victim. Bioshock Infinite was a steaming pile of shit with disjointed gameplay and elements that just didn't belong in the game. It was a wobbling mess of intellectual sounding garbage that didn't realize exactly how messed up it was. When called on it's bullshit however it didn't do the regular thing which was ask for our suspension of disbelief, it just said "Constants and Variables" and then started giving itself high fives and laughing to itself uncontrollably.

The violence felt out of place because of who the people committing the violence were. I had NO such argument to make about the Last of Us, the violence there felt necessary and realistic, despite a bit overkill at the start.

Why are cops, guys with families, a long live ahead of them, who get PAID to do this work, charging at you, a homicidal maniac who is literally their incarnation of the anti-christ, with nothing but a baton? No reason, just the fact that it's a Bioshock game and we had allot of melee units in the previous ones, the same story with the vigours, food system, health kits, different types of weapons (despite the fact you can only carry 2 now and about 3 of em are just variations on machineguns), upgrades for vigours and weapons, etc. Bioshock had them so they HAVE to be in here somewhere.

I will be up front here and don't mask what I say behind Lumobabrive Misnocance, as I already did in the opening but here it is again, I did not like the game, I did not like it one bit. I would have much rather played the game in the E3 demo than this watered down fratboy edition. Where you actual had areas that felt lived in and the violence was way more realistic where you were suddenly stuck in between someone holding a rock and someone banging your head on a hard surface because of who you are or something you said.

However to say there were no problems with the way the violence was portrayed is quite absurd. If you wish to show me that this is totally normal behaviour for a cop show me a video where a cop assaults a bank robbery with nothing but a stick and his giant balls.

 

[I.Muir]

Yes it did seem funny mourning the loss of people you just killed in tomb raider during a cut scene then mowing them down with the extreme efficiency of a practiced gamer the next. Thing is however that I preferred tomb raider to bio shock infinite which seemed to me like it was trying to appear more deep and meaningful than it actually was. As to violence in general well... I normally play games as if the main character were merely directed psychopathy and few games have ever changed that.

 

[m19]

I bought that in the Steam sale and have been playing it over the weekend. I did hear a quip about her having to do a lot of hikes. But I didn't hear anything specific about weapons training.

I figured she was taught the skills relevant to archeology. Long hikes. Living in remote, harsh environments. Maybe learning how to use a gun to keep unwanted wildlife away. But not how to kill dozens of mercs. Not how to use a bow either, that takes years of effort for no forseeable purpose.

There is no one on earth who can kill dozens of mercs in a close pitched battle like games depict. Doesn't matter that Booker for example was an experienced soldier, what he does can only be done by the Terminator. So of course all of that is exaggerated. Point is Lara always had it in her to fight back even if the act itself is exaggerated she just doesn't know that about herself.

In the beginning she has flashbacks to Roth's lessons where he tells her about navigation and using weapons which implies he trained her. And if you know some of the backstory of Roth and what is implied he did with Lara's father (more like dangerous treasure hunts than archaeology), he trained Lara to be prepared for the same danger on these same kind of adventure expeditions which means it was more than self defence from just wild animals. He also believes in her abilities and that she's ready. In the beginning cinematic you can see a cup with her archery club logo [http://www.mercuryrapids.co.uk/tomb_raider_page/turning_point_trailer/Image2.jpg] so she knows how to use a bow.

Of course it's not realistic and over the top but to say she was never prepared is not exactly true since she was groomed by Roth to do what he and her father did. If you follow the story it's not about a random person being suddenly dropped into the wild.

 

[Drummodino]

For some reason I thought Jim was planning to say that Tomb Raider didn't have this issue and I felt like I'd have to disagree. I should have had more faith, Jim is bang on the money. I'd like to see someone convincingly argue that the violence in The Last of Us is an example of ludonarrative dissonance.

 

[wizzy555]

I'd like to express my thanks for something that wasn't about publishers, capitalism or gender issues.

 

[NezumiiroKitsune]

Was this episode all about the actor who plays Sherlock Holmes in the BBC series, having a problem with games? Because I think you mispronounced his name. It's phonetic; Bemupfick Cymbalpock Libblénibber Dingyflambot.

OT: I hadn't heard this term before today, and had to look it up. It's interesting to see terms emerge, purely to fill the void, for the benefit of dialogue about videogames. This is a discussion I have been having, we've all been having, for much longer than this term has been around, and while it's clearly integral to the development of videogame making as a medium, particularly in refinement of it's capacity to craft a narrative into itself, it's good to know that it has been hastily misused and burnt out. Fortunately, this might mean it'll get boring, and make it into the usual "buzzless" lexicon. Then we can have grown up talks maybe.

Camberpotch Bendydick.

 

[Gunner 51]

If you cut the intros and outros out of these videos I might be able to stand this guy. Every time I hear them I want to punch something.

I agree with you. I find Jim's immaturity and obsession with dildos coupled his better-than-God persona to be quite irritating. When Jim speaks seriously, he's quite interesting to listen to and raises some interesting points. (Even though I do not find myself agreeing with them all.)

Still, if you thought Jim's enormous ego was bad - try watching him from his first episodes. Toe curlingly embarrassing stuff.

Anyhow, as you seem to be newbie - I'd also like to say Welcome to the Escapist.

 

[keefah]

My problem with Infinite when it came to it's violence wasn't that it was too violence, it was that the real violence the characters were experiencing as part of the narrative (Violence that Jim points out here) is undermined by the cartoonish head-sploding violence in the gameplay. We see the characters go through moments of real pain just to have enemies get thrown off the city or killed in ways that more fun/funny than violent or painful.

Edit
Also, It's a good thing that someone posted Christopher Franklin here because I was about too