Jimquisition: Lugoscababib Discobiscuits

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Proverbial Jon

Not evil, just mildly malevolent
Nov 10, 2009
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Worgen said:
I get the feeling that Jim didn't actually understand the argument. From my perspective the claim of dissidence for Bioshock infinite isn't because its violent, its because that's the only option and your not fighting zombie analogs, your fighting cops and protesters. They made a world that feels lived in but for the most part your only interaction with it is with bullets.
The way I see it is:

In the first 20 minutes or so of Bioshock: Infinite Columbia is presented to us as a peaceful, beautiful Eden. It's an idyllic and pristine world in the sky. As we see more of it however we realise that actually it's based on old world values and a whole heap of racism. Columbia's beauty is nothing more than a veneer. There's little meaningful interaction with the world because it is a fundamentally shallow world.

Booker on the other hand is a man of violence from a world of violence with a violent past. The player embodies a specific character, not a vessel through which they may enact their own actions. Booker used violence to solve his real-world problems and he's just doing the same in Columbia, a shallow world that affords him no other option.

Besides, both the cops and the Vox initiated their respective fights with Booker. The cops want him dead because they believe he's the anti-Christ which makes them essentially religious extremists. The Vox want him dead because Daisy Fitzroy thinks he's a ghost or an imposter so they're fuelled by their already intense hatred of the Columbian regime. What's a heavily armed man to do?

Its one thing when you mow down 20 zombies and see more coming, its another when you shoot 20 cops and they just keep coming and don't react at all to seeing their comrades casually killed.
I'd say pretty much every game that features human enemies suffers from that problem.
 

teebeeohh

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Jun 17, 2009
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silly me, i thought the issue with infinite was that the shooting was not very good and that a lot of mechanics(like the scavenging) don't make sense in a world that is not already fallen to pieces
 

C2Ultima

Future sovereign of Oz
Nov 6, 2010
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I disagree slightly about Bioshock: Infinite. The reason the violence feels off is because a good chunk of the game is devoted to exploring the conflict between the Founders and the Vox Populi, with the conclusion Booker and Elizabeth come to being "Both of these guys are horrible and violent, and they're both in the wrong." Implying Booker and Elizabeth are in the right, even though Booker kills more people than any of them.
 

Jimothy Sterling

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Apr 18, 2011
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Hmm I understand that it can be frustrating, but as usual you are going too overboard with the topic in one direction and missing the point. To be clear, Ludo-Narrative Dissonance literally means a conflict between the game and the narrative of such game.

Many people have pointed out the Ludo-narrative Dissonance in Bioshock, present in the fact that you steal coins and eat food out off trash cans as you well mention, but ALSO present in the fact that for example, Elizabeth turns invisible to the enemies in combat, which is specially odd when she is supposed to be what they are searching. Of course having to escort her could be annoying, but it still conflicts with the world that they have built.
There is also a Stylistic narrative dissonance, Elizabeth has highly caricaturesque features (its clear to see that her original design fit better with the tone of the game, but was less charming), but the world presents very gruesome violence, she is reminiscent of a Disney character while the world is full of over the top violence. There are also smaller details, like the fact that there are weapon and vigor vendors all over the place, but only versy specific militarized forces seem to have any access to them, just opposite to plasmids that composed an integral part of Rapture, Vigors seem superfluous and wanton. Similarly, the almost arcade-ish, seemingly endless waves of enemies that you have to kill in sections that tend to lose focus of the serious story that the game is trying to tell, even if it is a story about violence and trauma (although arguably, it is more a story about loss than anything else JIM).

In fact, for me, this was the biggest issue, not directly about violence but about the structure of the game. Bioshock Infinite has a terrible problem with things being there"just because", none of the story really leads anywhere until the ending, where the game actually shows its cards. And the issue is that at that point, in which most of the combat is done ( and 10+ hours have passed) you realize that there is a profound disconnect between the story the game wanted to tell, and how it actually came around to tell it.

Of course, none of this means that the game is bad, and a lot of it is clearly designed to make the game more fun and enjoyable. But that is the point of the criticism, we are reaching the stage in evolution in which sometimes "game-like" design decisions are playing against the narrative of a the game as a whole, and it is a very real conflict. Dismissing it all because "people are trying to sound smart" is a pretty defensive and plain silly reaction.

In fact, I'd say that we shouldn't be so defensive in general. Even though I LOVED the hell out of TLOU, I agree that in some sections there was a lot of ludo-narrative dissonance, some related to violence and some to other issues.
-mild spoilers- For example, the section where you fall into the refrigerator trap, or the section where you take over the sniper rifle and provide cover fire, both give you endless ammo for you, of course this is not extremely important, but for a game that worked so hard to sett a sense of scarcity and urgency, these bits did damage the overall appeal. In the same way, occasionally there are a number of areas that you can inspect thoroughly, only to find that enemies will spawn out of nowhere only after you press a switch (or open a door, or turn on a generator), shattering the illusion of the organic world and turning it into a chain of interconnected monster closets.
And finally, for me the most offensive aspect of ludo-narrative dissonance in the Last of Us, was the collectibles, the fact that the game is clearly heavily invested in you following a story but still puts hidden collectibles in even some of the most dramatic passages of the game, creating a severe conflict between following the story or following the game.

I know this is a generalization, but all in all, it seems that since games are delving into more and more serious topics narratively speaking, we are still stuck in some very standard Game-like mechanics that seem to be placed in there to please the "target demographic". Personally I do think that the excess in combat and violence in Bioshock did dilute the final punch of the story, and the more gamey The last of us became, the more it pushed me out of its otherwise brilliantly crafted universe. And it's not bad that people are recognizing this, it's something developers have to tackle, so even if some people use the term for basically anything, it doesn't mean that it doesn't have some truth to it.
 

Eric the Orange

Gone Gonzo
Apr 29, 2008
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I'd be interesting in seeing some of what Jim is talking about here. 'cause the only one I can think of is the EC episode, and there reasoning wasn't just "violence".

Link to the episode for those interested.

http://penny-arcade.com/patv/episode/in-service-to-the-brand
 

Reyold

New member
Jun 18, 2012
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Thanks Jim, now you got me thinking about dancing bread.

Also, that suit is snazzy.
 

mjc0961

YOU'RE a pie chart.
Nov 30, 2009
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spartandude said:
While i cant speak about Last Of Us (i havnt played it) the issue i see brought up when refering to bioshock infinite is not that its violent but that when Elisabeth sees you murder she freaks out at you (very understandable) but less than 5 minutes later shes throwing ammo at you and such and enabling you to kill, thats where the issue comes in.
Nope, there's no issue there. You forget that after she freaks out at you for killing that guy but before she starts tossing you ammo, she comes to terms with the fact that it was a "him or me" situation and that what Booker did was necessary. You also forget that Elizabeth desperately wants to not be put back in the tower and that she realizes that Booker is her best and only chance of that happening, so helping him whether or not she likes the killing that she's already come to terms with is in her best interests. Thus the only problem here is your memory failing you. Go on, have a replay, it'll help you realize your mistake.

MichaelPalin said:
But, in my opinion, the core of the problem with TR, B:I and I guess tLoU, which I haven't played, has little to do with ludonarrative dissonace. In my opinion, the problem is that gamers are maturing and are starting to outgrow violence as the king of gameplay and plot in big amounts. Take Infinite, for example. While ludonarrative disonance may have appeared in the criticisms, the criticism that most people was actually making was basically: "I love the setting, I love the city you have built, why do you force me to shoot and shoot, when I would be much rather exploring it?". That's the core of the issue, people just require experiences that do not revolve around violence or that at least give violence less priority and the industry is unable to provide that. And Bioshock Infinite is for me the moment when this become clear.
If that is the complaint, if that is the problem people have with the game, then they should say that instead of shouting "ludonarrative dissonance!" when it does not apply. The gameplay and story differing from each other and an interesting world that players aren't allowed to explore because they're being railroaded from shooting gallery to shooting gallery are two massively different complaints. You aren't really contradicting anything said in the video. In fact, you're pretty much proving Jim's point: that people are tossing ludonarrative dissonance around because they aren't intelligent enough to properly articulate what their actual problem with the game is.

themilo504 said:
The violence never bothered me in bioshock infinite, what did bother me was how booker was a one man army gunning down thousands of cops soldiers and HUGE SPOILERS vox members, even with all of the vigor?s he has that?s ridiculous.

It also bugged me how long it took before soldiers started to appear, you would expect them to start showing up very quickly but instead they send out hundreds of ill-equipped cops to be gunned down in mass before bringing out the big guns.
Welcome to shooters, you must be new.

Eric the Orange said:
I'd be interesting in seeing some of what Jim is talking about here. 'cause the only one I can think of is the EC episode, and there reasoning wasn't just "violence".

Link to the episode for those interested.

http://penny-arcade.com/patv/episode/in-service-to-the-brand
Doesn't surprise me at all that Extra Credits was wrong. Did they talk about how Gears of War is a first person shooter again too?
 

Silentpony_v1legacy

Alleged Feather-Rustler
Jun 5, 2013
6,760
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I have very little to say about this topic. Gender issues and game publishing practices, I can charge in with verbal battleaxe in hand...but I can confidently say I have never heard anyone talk about this issue. I listen to the Escapist Podcast and get several game magazines, both digital and in the mail. I've never heard of this argument.
Its oddly reminiscent with that late 90s renaming of things. Where shyness became social anxiety disorder and what not.
Ludo-narrative dissonance used to be called 'silly'. I think Conker called it 'Context Sensitive' and it was hysterical. Conker is a prime example, indeed because that's the point of the game. Conker does not want to play the game. He wants to go home and fully interacts with the player character and developer. And yet because he's the protagonist, he has no choice but to continue. Practice different then premise. And it was hysterical.
People really need to lighten up about these things.

Also did this week's episode seem shorter than normal? It just feels like it was over really quickly.
 

00slash00

New member
Dec 29, 2009
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I thought the argument people were making about Infinite was primarily the scene where Elizabeth runs away because you kill a group of people. Where she is a afraid of you and thinks you're a monster, and then a few minutes later is completely fine with you killing anything that moves
 

Ukomba

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Oct 14, 2010
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I get the point of Bioshock being violent, but the violence was so catoonish that it brought me out of the game. A lot of it looked like it could have come straight out of Team Fortress 2.
 

Kaendris

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Sep 6, 2013
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Disregard... you have already stated your opinion on the matter I questioned, no sense in drudging up the past.
 

infinity_turtles

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Apr 17, 2010
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I agree with most of this, but disagree that Bioshock Infinite incorporated the violence into the narrative well. Last of Us though? While I may not have enjoyed that particular game's combat very much, the violence very clearly serves the story there. I don't know how anyone can play the game and not get that, even if they disagree with the game's tone/message/whatevs. The violence, and the degree of violence served that story. Infinite, while there being combat serves the story, the way it was handled didn't.
 

Adam Jensen_v1legacy

I never asked for this
Sep 8, 2011
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Hey Jim, did you lose some weight? It looks like you lost some weight. If so, good for you. Keep it up. We don't want you to die. We know god wants you by his side, but it will have to wait.

I don't care much about this issue, but it really was a huge problem in Tomb Raider. And not just because of discobiscuits, but because the series had always relied on platforming puzzles more than action. So to suddenly have that shift in...genre, essentially, and in such a strange way makes no sense. It's a good thing for Tomb Raider that shooting mechanics are so damn satisfying. But I wouldn't have minded if it was introduced more slowly and carefully into the game. Lara got her huge arsenal of firepower and the expertise to use it way too fast.
 

Bad Jim

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Nov 1, 2010
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m19 said:
Good episode.

However I never saw that problem with Tomb Raider either, at least not as much as people seem to. It's a story of a girl who's trained both physically and to use weapons by an ex-special forces dude (you'll miss it if you don't pay attention). And the whole premise of the character arc is that she doesn't know herself. Hence after the first "that just happened" freakout, she shocks herself with what she can't do, "It's scary just how easy it was."

Yes the combat is exaggerated like in much of gaming but it is not completely at odds with the narrative or glossed over.
I bought that in the Steam sale and have been playing it over the weekend. I did hear a quip about her having to do a lot of hikes. But I didn't hear anything specific about weapons training.

I figured she was taught the skills relevant to archeology. Long hikes. Living in remote, harsh environments. Maybe learning how to use a gun to keep unwanted wildlife away. But not how to kill dozens of mercs. Not how to use a bow either, that takes years of effort for no forseeable purpose.
 

Lightknight

Mugwamp Supreme
Nov 26, 2008
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Solid episode. Thanks for bringing this up. I actually heard a person use this in-person recently for a book and had to explain that a failure to immerse in the plot is not what the term means, just a potential result.
 

Piorn

New member
Dec 26, 2007
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So who's the target audience for this episode?
There are people who know what Ludonarrative Dissonance is, and they don't need this episode.
There are people that don't, and if these people use a word they don't understand to prove a point, they'll most likely not stop using it just because someone reasons with them.

Ludonarrative Dissonance is an interesting topic, true, but explaining it properly would be a much more constructive way to deal with it than just ranting about people misusing the word.
 

Jimothy Sterling

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Apr 18, 2011
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mjc0961 said:
If that is the complaint, if that is the problem people have with the game, then they should say that instead of shouting "ludonarrative dissonance!" when it does not apply. The gameplay and story differing from each other and an interesting world that players aren't allowed to explore because they're being railroaded from shooting gallery to shooting gallery are two massively different complaints. You aren't really contradicting anything said in the video. In fact, you're pretty much proving Jim's point: that people are tossing ludonarrative dissonance around because they aren't intelligent enough to properly articulate what their actual problem with the game is.

themilo504 said:
The violence never bothered me in bioshock infinite, what did bother me was how booker was a one man army gunning down thousands of cops soldiers and HUGE SPOILERS vox members, even with all of the vigor?s he has that?s ridiculous.

It also bugged me how long it took before soldiers started to appear, you would expect them to start showing up very quickly but instead they send out hundreds of ill-equipped cops to be gunned down in mass before bringing out the big guns.
Welcome to shooters, you must be new.
Well that is exactly it, not because it is used extensively is the criticism any less true. And YES, this does constitute some ludo-narrative dissonance. A lot of games tend to require some narrative flexibility to make a game more enjoyable. It isn't a huge issue, but it can start grinding when it becomes an over-used trope. This is accentuated when a game takes itself very seriously, and tries to present a thoughtful narrative, but immediately throws in wave after wave of hundreds of increasingly difficult enemies just as mechanical stepping stone, starkly contrasting with the human exposition just presented, and severing a lot of the logical and emotional connection with our reality that it may have achieved before. With universes so thoughtfully crafted, it is these smaller details that show the cracks and the tension between game mechanics and game narrative.

Also, assuming that by using a term people are not intelligent enough is insulting. It is possible that they are observing that division between game and story in ways that you may not have thought about, or even that this fractures are pertinent only to their experience of the game or their playstyle. I'm sure there are people using the terminology without full knowledge of it's meaning, but so far I have not really seen that as a standard, so why be insulting straight away?.

mjc0961 said:
Eric the Orange said:
I'd be interesting in seeing some of what Jim is talking about here. 'cause the only one I can think of is the EC episode, and there reasoning wasn't just "violence".

Link to the episode for those interested.

http://penny-arcade.com/patv/episode/in-service-to-the-brand
Doesn't surprise me at all that Extra Credits was wrong. Did they talk about how Gears of War is a first person shooter again too?
Well, the fact that EC made a mistake defining the genre of one game (not really a very important mistake in relation to this topic) doesn't make their reasoning about this subject wrong (that is in fact a fallacy). To be honest, EC's analysis of Bioshock is rather clear, coherent, logical and correct(I will not say it's true, because they make a few subjective observations, but it makes a lot of sense). In any case, you shouldn't dismiss it so quickly without even trying to understand it's explanation. And no, it isn't solely based about the violence.
 

Jimothy Sterling

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Apr 18, 2011
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uanime5 said:
I'd say both Bioshock Infinite and Last of Us do have ludonarrative dissonance because the story is trying to tell use how great/moral/right/sympathetic the protagonist is but during the game the protagonist keeps killing everyone who opposed them, rather than try to resolve their problems in any other way. As long as the gameplay only allows the player to act as a mass murderer a narrative that shows this character acting any other way has a high chance of exhibiting ludonarrative dissonance.
Except they don't...

Maybe slightly in the case of Booker, since although he is a desperate, tough war veteran with a shady past, he seems to be troubled about it, and wants to correct his wrongs. So I'll grant you that he does seem like a good guy that has done wrong, so there is some dissonance with his endless killing.

But Joel!?
Joel is a troubled guy, he is NOT a good guy. Sure we can relate to some of his suffering, since he will do anything to survive, but the story repeatedly states that he is literally willing to do anything to achieve what he wants.
Violence is integral to this, it doesn't try to make you forget about Joel's actions, or make him look great/moral/right/sympathetic, just desperate and driven.
The game also does promote stealth in various occasions, so yes, there are very beneficial alternatives to violence.
If you have not finished the game, you don't know what Joel s capable of, but in many ways he is very much the villain of the story.
 

Canadamus Prime

Robot in Disguise
Jun 17, 2009
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Don't you just love it when people use terminology that that they don't understand the meaning of and instead just use to sound sophisticated when all they're really saying is "Stop liking what I don't like."