Jimquisition: Neutered

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Yuuki

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I don't know who Jim was directing this video at, because I'm yet to meet someone on these forums who holds the kind of opinion that Jim is countering. And this isn't the first video Jim's done where he appears to be arguing against some...one...some...where...that I have no clue about.

Then again, perhaps Jim is referring to a bunch of crazy people from another part of this forum that I'm yet to visit, or another website altogether where there are a whole bunch of crazies.

Jim has only been adding fuel to the fire for the past few weeks.

Making video after video repeatedly saying "calm the fuck down everyone!" is NOT how you calm people down, I hope Jim has learned that lesson by now. Find a new fucking topic so we can move on from this. Please don't turn into a Sarkeesian.

Oh and please for the love of god Jim, stop responding to completely crazy people who make up a tiny minority.
 

jamesbrown

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uanime5 said:
Shjade said:
It's a completely fair criticism, actually. If a game is visually unappealing it's less fun to play since, even if the mechanics are great, you have to watch crap to use those mechanics. This is more important to some people than others, but it's important.
It's only a valid criticism when the art makes it harder to play the game; such as making it impossible to tell what you can jump on, where the enemies are, or where your character is. Hating the a game because you don't like how large a character's breasts are isn't a valid criticism as it has no effect on the game play. Also as Dragon Crown on average got a score of 83% (8.3 out of 10) a score of 6.5 out of 10 effectively means it lost nearly 2 points just because the reviewer didn't like how some of the characters looked. Such a large reduction simply can't be justified based on the preference of a reviewer, rather than a fault with the game.
You aren't in any position to determine whether or not someone's opinion is invalid on something that isn't fact-based like whether or not you like a game. If someone determines a game based on artstyle, that is their opinion; and it is a valid opinion because that is how they judge their games and you don't have to agree with the opinion, but that doesn't invalidate it.

Now your second statement about average scores is incredibly backwards thinking, and does not promote anything other than homogenization of everyone and every opinion. I am glad to see someone leave the flock and actually give something other than an 10/10! which at this point is so meaningless because of that mentality; blame the sites which average scores for that, reviews aren't supposed to be mixed up and blended, they are self-contained and are supposed to be independent of each other. It is not the reviewers responsibility to make sure an average score matches what is in your head.
 

EternallyBored

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Silentpony said:
erttheking said:
Silentpony said:
I don't get how you can have it both ways. How you can say include everyone but don't appeal to a wider audience. Jim has always been a fan of niche games, horror being his favorite genre, but when Dead Space 3 came out, a game designed to be an inoffensive and inclusive as possible, he hated it. Didn't he say in a lot of videos that if a game has a small but loyal fanbase, that's awesome? Well how about now?! If you defend a game that has a small fanbase, by implication not appealing to a wider audience, AND rant and rave against the homogenization of games to appeal to a wider audience, how can you do a video saying the exact opposite?
He flat out said that there was a difference between being more inclusive and appealing to a wider audience. And let's face facts when people say "we want to appeal to a wider audience" they mean "We want Call of Duty fans" That is what Jim criticizes.
Right, no, I got that. He DID say there was a difference. My question is what? What is the difference? How are they different? Just saying there is one isn't the same...
The difference is that when a publisher says they are trying to broaden appeal, what they mean is that they want to change things to make it more like Call of Duty, or World of Warcraft, or League of Legends, they aren't actually broadening anything they are just mimicking more popular games in order to try and draw in fans of those games. Notice that whenever a developer says that they are doing that it's never something like adding a female protagonist, or bringing new elements in that have never been done before, it's always things like cover-based combat, a two weapon limit, free-to-play transactions, or a tacked on multiplayer mode. The difference is one is actually encouraging (important note: not forcing) change to try and be more inclusive (and by inclusive I mean taking into consideration, not including everything and the kitchen sink into every game), and the other just homogenizes brands in order to ape a popular title at the time.

I doubt Jim expects every attempt to succeed and publishers will probably still find some way to screw things up, but it's still better for innovation that we have and encourage the option rather than trying to artificially limit things by saying, "that's just the way things are". Even if all this controversy and pointless arguing accomplishes is to make a single developer ask themselves, "Why does my character need to be a white male? Can he be something else, or is his identity integral to the story I wish to tell?", then I would consider it all worthwhile.
 

Erttheking

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m19 said:
Remember when Jim criticized Resident Evil 6 for trying to appeal to everyone at once?

Yeah... Same thing can apply here. Gaming in general should be inclusive. An individual game doesn't have to be and often is better off not being for everyone. And there is certainly no excuse for labelling people as misogynists because they are men making things that appeal to other men.

Ask for what you want, don't point fingers at other people.
There's a difference between a game trying to be everything and as a direct result being nothing, and developers stepping out of their comfort zones.
 

jamesbrown

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Yuuki said:
I don't know who Jim was directing this video at, because I'm yet to meet someone on these forums who holds the kind of opinion that Jim is countering.

Then again, perhaps Jim is referring to a bunch of crazy people from another part of this forum that I'm yet to visit, or another website altogether where there are a whole bunch of crazies.

To be honest I'm sick of people making shit controversial, and Jim has only been adding fuel to the fire for the past few weeks.

Making video after video repeatedly saying "calm the fuck down everyone!" is NOT how you calm people down, I hope Jim has learned that lesson by now. When a baby is crying you don't tell it to stop crying, you divert it's attention to something else, i.e. find a new fucking topic. Please don't turn into a Sarkeesian.

I guess from now on I'm going to start having to skim over the video descriptions to decide whether it's worthwhile.
They do exist on these forums and jim does read the comments to his escapist videos as well as his destructoid articles; so if he sees it here then he will do something about it here, if it is there then he will do something about it there
 

WindKnight

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kailus13 said:
I

Also, people might be worrying that characters like the sorceress wouldn't be allowed if detractors got their way, which would be stifling creativity somewhat.
And yet, they'll defend publishers when they actively stifle creativity by telling developers they can't have the female protagonist they wanted.
 
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For the most part, excellent episode. I agree with much of what you said.

However, it wasn't perfect. While your points were very well made, I think it's a mistake to hold every game to the standard of Saints Row. The madcap, unchained goofiness of Saints Row makes it extremely easy to be inclusive where in other games, it's much more difficult.

Also, while I agree we need more creativity, as you said yourself long ago, creativity for it's own sake is stupid, as is inclusivity. If it makes sense in the game, go for it! Include everyone you can! But if you turn one of GTA V's protagonists into a woman just for the sake of having a female protagonist, it's probably going to feel shoehorned and shitty.
 

Yuuki

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jamesbrown said:
They do exist on these forums and jim does read the comments to his escapist videos as well as his destructoid articles; so if he sees it here then he will do something about it here, if it is there then he will do something about it there
If Jim is going to make every future video based on the responses to his previous videos then JimQuisition is pretty much fucked, because he'll never move on from this and neither will we.

Every video that tries to discuss sexism/gender-controversy/criticism turns into the same shit, over and over again. This has probably happened like 500 times on these forums alone and Jim isn't helping.

Jim's videos will never reach or convince the people he is responding to. It's the equivalent of a Call Of Duty pro making a thread on forums saying "OMG STOP SUCKING GUYS!" without realizing that the people who suck at the game most likely don't even visit forums and will never read his thread.
 

WindKnight

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aba1 said:
JudgeGame said:
Asking artists to break away from tired, stereotypical ideas and accept harder challenges leads to originality? This is baseless pseudo-science.
Ya I agree. I generally agree with Jim but not this week. This sorta movement will just force guidelines and stifle creativity. If the creator wants to do things a certain way than they should be able too simple as that. Saints row wanted to be have crazy customization but just because they wanted it doesn't mean everyone should be forced to have it. If someone wanted a all female cast I say go for it for all I care they just shouldn't be forced to do it.
To follow up on my earlier post, games companies are already stifling creativity. Publishers are telling developers they can't have a female protagonist when they want one. the 'inclusivity checklist' may stifle creativity. the current policy of excluding IS actively right now stifling creativity.
 

Yuuki

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Windknight said:
To follow up on my earlier post, games companies are already stifling creativity. Publishers are telling developers they can't have a female protagonist when they want one. the 'inclusivity checklist' may stifle creativity. the current policy of sxcluding IS actively right now stifling creativity.
...and Jim already did a video responding to publishers rejecting female protagonists. A ton of discussion already happened regarding that video/thread.

This particular video/thread has nothing to do with publishers rejecting female protagonists. It's not even addressed towards publishers.
 

Legion

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Windknight said:
aba1 said:
JudgeGame said:
Asking artists to break away from tired, stereotypical ideas and accept harder challenges leads to originality? This is baseless pseudo-science.
Ya I agree. I generally agree with Jim but not this week. This sorta movement will just force guidelines and stifle creativity. If the creator wants to do things a certain way than they should be able too simple as that. Saints row wanted to be have crazy customization but just because they wanted it doesn't mean everyone should be forced to have it. If someone wanted a all female cast I say go for it for all I care they just shouldn't be forced to do it.
To follow up on my earlier post, games companies are already stifling creativity. Publishers are telling developers they can't have a female protagonist when they want one.
Examples and sources please.

All I have heard of are a couple of developers claiming that unnamed publishers didn't want them having female characters the prominent character on the box art. The Last of Us and Remember Me being the two games. I have genuinely not heard of a single game where a publisher has denied the rights to have a female character.
 

Callate

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I feel like this probably isn't going to come out right, but, here it goes anyway. Prepare mouth for insertion of foot.

It's great to see more games that buck stereotypes and tropes, really. I'm absolutely for seeing more games that have strong female characters in leading roles that weren't designed from the ground up for sex appeal. I also, however ,think there's a whole other problem that such characters can get flack if they seem too much like "male characters with a quick female paint job"- essentially the same grunting stolid space marines, just with an armor redesign and a different voice... And equally get flack if they're in any way vulnerable, quickly earning an unwarranted "oh, she's just another damsel in distress" just for trying to give the character some depth. Both Last of Us and Tomb Raider seem to have received a certain amount of punishment on these lines, and it's hard for me not to sympathize at that point with a designer wanting to say, "You know what? I'm tired of trying to placate you, so kindly @$#% off."

And on the other side of things, I bought Remember Me from the Steam Summer Sale, paying a bit more than I would have for a game I was uncertain about in part because I wanted to support a developer who had fought tooth and nail to keep their strong female protaganist. And... it's not a very good game. It's not a bad game, by any stretch, it's just a very linear one, quick to disempower the player if they aren't cleaving strictly to a very limited intended way of doing things. But more damningly, it has a whole theme of memory manipulation to work with, yet fails to really gel the "memory manipulation is a horror" sentiment with the fact that three quarters of the people whose memories are re-spliced by the heroine become better people for it, and largely sets the "this is what memory drain does to you" bar at "it turns you into a fast zombie."

...Seriously, Blade Runner did more interesting things with memory manipulation more than thirty years ago, and it wasn't even the primary focus of the story.

So, yes, there's this strong heroine, of mixed racial descent, no less... And a tiny part of me wonders if they wouldn't have been better off focusing their creative energies on story, rather than this one character.

I guess ultimately, my love for the idea of games that push and expand the boundaries doesn't push as far as suggesting that every game should have to do so, or that games that don't are always deserving of criticism simply because they could have used their place in the spotlight to push a more progressive agenda and failed to do so. Shakespeare used plenty of plot lines that were borrowed from fairy tales and Greek and Roman theater, tropes that were hundreds or even thousands of years old even as he re-immortalized them. I'll happily cheer a game that make me feel like their unconventional transgender multiracial protagonist stakes their claim as if they've always been there, and leads a terrific game that fills me with joy to play. But I'm not necessarily going to ***** and moan (yes, I'm aware of the word choice) if an otherwise great game fails to supply a female protagonist.

What was it Jim said about "innovation", before?
 

m19

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erttheking said:
There's a difference between a game trying to be everything and as a direct result being nothing, and developers stepping out of their comfort zones.
I'm not sure what you are trying to say.

Take for example the ability to choose the protagonist's gender. That already waters down what you can do with characterization. Because now the narrative has to work for both and you need to do twice the work with voice acting and animation.

An individual game can be just one thing, like a strictly male or female fantasy. And that's not a crime like many these days act that it is.
 

WindKnight

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Legion said:
Windknight said:
aba1 said:
JudgeGame said:
Asking artists to break away from tired, stereotypical ideas and accept harder challenges leads to originality? This is baseless pseudo-science.
Ya I agree. I generally agree with Jim but not this week. This sorta movement will just force guidelines and stifle creativity. If the creator wants to do things a certain way than they should be able too simple as that. Saints row wanted to be have crazy customization but just because they wanted it doesn't mean everyone should be forced to have it. If someone wanted a all female cast I say go for it for all I care they just shouldn't be forced to do it.
To follow up on my earlier post, games companies are already stifling creativity. Publishers are telling developers they can't have a female protagonist when they want one.
Examples and sources please.

All I have heard of are a couple of developers claiming that unnamed publishers didn't want them having female characters the prominent character on the box art. The Last of Us and Remember Me being the two games. I have genuinely not heard of a single game where a publisher has denied the rights to have a female character.
http://www.giantbomb.com/sleeping-dogs/3030-29441/

'Sleeping Dogs, in its later stages developed at United Front Games and eventually published by Square-Enix, originally began life at Activision as "Black Lotus", an open-world crime game with a female protagonist. However, under the belief that their predominantly male target audience would not play such a game starring a woman, management demanded that the protagonist be replaced with a man, and further tied the previously-unrelated game into the then-abandoned True Crime franchise. '

And in remember me's case, many publishers refused to publish it because they had a female lead character.
 

Erttheking

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Legion said:
Windknight said:
aba1 said:
JudgeGame said:
Asking artists to break away from tired, stereotypical ideas and accept harder challenges leads to originality? This is baseless pseudo-science.
Ya I agree. I generally agree with Jim but not this week. This sorta movement will just force guidelines and stifle creativity. If the creator wants to do things a certain way than they should be able too simple as that. Saints row wanted to be have crazy customization but just because they wanted it doesn't mean everyone should be forced to have it. If someone wanted a all female cast I say go for it for all I care they just shouldn't be forced to do it.
To follow up on my earlier post, games companies are already stifling creativity. Publishers are telling developers they can't have a female protagonist when they want one.
Examples and sources please.

All I have heard of are a couple of developers claiming that unnamed publishers didn't want them having female characters the prominent character on the box art. The Last of Us and Remember Me being the two games. I have genuinely not heard of a single game where a publisher has denied the rights to have a female character.
No, when it came to remember me, the developers had to actually fight to make the main character female. Some publishers refused to go with it because of the female character.

http://www.polygon.com/2013/3/18/4120694/remember-me-publishers-balked-at-female-lead-character
 

WindKnight

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Yuuki said:
Windknight said:
To follow up on my earlier post, games companies are already stifling creativity. Publishers are telling developers they can't have a female protagonist when they want one. the 'inclusivity checklist' may stifle creativity. the current policy of sxcluding IS actively right now stifling creativity.
...and Jim already did a video responding to publishers rejecting female protagonists. A ton of discussion already happened regarding that video/thread.

This particular video/thread has nothing to do with publishers rejecting female protagonists. It's not even addressed towards publishers.
I was responding to a post claiming 'inclusivity' will stifle creatively. I was making the point that the OPPOSITE, that people seem to be championing, is already stifling creativity, not encouraging it.
 

PunkRex

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So many mixed feels about this vid... which is weird as I basically agreed with all of it.

I wanna see more diversity in the medium (as well as a few others) but the idea that ALL new games should do this... no, I could never agree with that. A good artist/s can produce some truely amazing things under restrictions while others work better with a larger pallette. Some wanna push their passion in new directions while some wanna stay the course and do what others have done, maybe better.

Different people like different things. I like my characters to have full personalities but I also like abit of 'flair' to lighten the mood every now and then.

Artists should do what they want, if you don't like it than maybe its not for you. I hate mordern shooters so I don't play them, I critise what I don't like about them but I don't blame the artist/customer for liking it in the first place. People wanna read Twilight, read Twilight, people wanna play CoD, play CoD, you only live once right... I would say yolo but I hate that bloody phrase.

Don't think i'm against critisism, I really liked your 'Dragon Frown' ep Jim. The reveiw you mentioned is exactly what i'm on about. She was bothered by the female portayal and thats fine. Personally I think abit of sex appeal (aimed at whomever) is no big deal but some don't like it. True, keeping females in supportive/panda'ering roles to tick some sort of list is bull but if thats just the way that artist roles than... as I said mixed feels.
 

Erttheking

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m19 said:
erttheking said:
There's a difference between a game trying to be everything and as a direct result being nothing, and developers stepping out of their comfort zones.
I'm not sure what you are trying to say.

Take for example the ability to choose the protagonist's gender. That already waters down what you can do with characterization. Because now the narrative has to work for both and you need to do twice the work with voice acting and animation.

An individual game can be just one thing, like a strictly male or female fantasy. And that's not a crime like many these days act that it is.
Yes, but the problem is that more often than not we get plenty of male fantasies, but barely any female fantasies. That's the developers staying in their comfort zones.
 

mjc0961

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Also in the line of games that are "equal opportunity offenders" like Saints Row 4, I'm kind of sick of seeing feminists and white knights take big steamy shits on Lollipop Chainsaw without even playing it just because it has a cheerleader on the cover and a trophy for looking up said cheerleader's skirt. Maybe if they played the fucking game, they would see that Juliet isn't your typical female protagonist at all, and that the game is just as equally "sexist" to its male lead as it is the female lead (poor guy is a disembodied head who gets treated more like an item than a person and gets dragged around despite protests and requests to be left behind). But no, fuck playing it. Just take a big steamy shit all over it because this is on the cover: http://d1vr6n66ssr06c.cloudfront.net/wp-content/uploads/2011/12/LollipopChainsawCover01-600x690.jpg And then go get a job on Fox News or in Congress where all the other dipshits who bash games without playing them first work.

One other thing I'd like to see from that crowd is more praising of games that they feel do it right. Right now, from where I'm sitting, it seems like all they want is to shit on games they feel are being sexist until no more sexist games exist. I don't thing the solution to the problem here is to completely remove sexism like that from games, I think it's just to offer more games that aren't quite so sexist. There's a market for the sexist stuff and the people who actually want and enjoy it shouldn't be denied it. It reminds me of a few years back when shitting on "fun" games was all the rage and people were going on about how we need to completely get rid of them so we can have more super serious games. No. We just need to offer more of the other thing (serious games and non-sexist games) so everyone can have what they want, not flip the situation around so we're still stuck with one group feeling like there aren't enough games for them.
 

Catrixa

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Reading some of the responses here, I'm honestly starting to think the issue lies with, well, boxes. Jim, you say putting a box (restriction, as you put it) around doing the same durn thing over and over will help creativity. I completely agree, assuming that's the only box being used. You also mentioned Ye Olde Focus Testing (to death). This is another box, and developers/publishers wield it like the Mighty Sword of Mediocrity it is. So, to keep with your language metaphor: You've got a poem (something where vocabulary is extremely important). You want to say stuff in your poem, but it has to be about a specific subject, can't have language that's above a 9th grade level, must appeal to a certain group, and must rhyme (i.e. the box a publisher might put around the next fps). Now you want to add "also appeal to another group, while still keeping the first group." That's a lot of restrictions! I can see why people would say it stifles creativity, because after a certain point, you stop forcing creative solutions and start restricting any creative ideas.

That said: Maybe we should be arguing for more varied games, based on less strict focus testing. Maybe we should be encouraging devs to sacrifice cutting-edge tech (that costs stupid amounts of money) in favor of more innovative ideas. That way, there aren't so many boxes to be in. Hell, if people could get over it: Using the same art assets and engine to make completely different stories. Yeah, seeing the same colored crates between two vastly different games is visually boring, but if the complaint is always "we can't afford new ideas," using those same assets will save on development time and money.