The fact that you didn't find it attractive, does not mean that the character was not objectified. Jack almost has no clothes on, except from a string to cover her nipples, but Miranda is naked even *with* her clothes on.Ukomba said:
Jimquisition: Objectification And... Men?
- Thread starter Jimothy Sterling
- Start date
No one is evil for liking or hating these characters. The only bad thing about them is that they are used too much.Nurb said:In video games, both are equally objectified in the sense male and female game characters are objects that do what we want for our entertainment and fantasies, whatever they may be because it's fictional escapism.
Women are pretty and nice to look at, and men are fodder for the player to wade through with any given weapon weilded by a perfect looking protagonist. Men are not evil for enjoying sexualized fictional characters, nor are we evil for enjoying laying waste to thousands of enemies that want to stop our character.
Now please, no more forced gender debates!
As for the "male, female, at the end of the day, we're just a bunch of dang avatars made of bits and polygons", while true, the problem is more with the art(how the characters look), and the story(how the characters act).
Things that are not always in control of the player.
Also, that is a cute cat(picture and your avatar).
You may like this user group: Catoholics anonymous. If you are in already, sorry, I didn't see your name when I looked at the members list.
I hear the argument of the "hot male superhero" all the time too, and as Jim points out, it completely misses the point in the exact same way. When male heroes are showing off as much skin and having their "good stuff" front and center of panels, poses and covers, THEN we can talk about men being objectified.
Happy that the discussion's continuing, even though people seem to think threads full of nothing but "CAN WE STOP TALKING ABOUT THIS!?!?" and "WHINY BITCHES NEED TO GET OVER IT!!" apparently constitutes "having already been discussed."
Happy that the discussion's continuing, even though people seem to think threads full of nothing but "CAN WE STOP TALKING ABOUT THIS!?!?" and "WHINY BITCHES NEED TO GET OVER IT!!" apparently constitutes "having already been discussed."
Skimpy cloths doesn't equal objectified. Jack very nearly has the physique of a young man, has a shaved head, and is covered in tattoos. Jack's outfit isn't supposed to be titillating. I'm sure some people do find it provocative, but there are some people who really get off on a librarians over conservative look.franksands said:
If you want to say women have to be completely covered to not be objectified then you're not only severely limiting character model options, but your actually heading into sexist territory. Jack is a good female character with a design that fits well within the context of her back story and the universe.
I have no comment on Miranda. Objectifying a transgender character isn't the topic of this discussion. I wasn't big on her cat suit, her personality, or her combat abilities so I never used her. I always preferred the non-human characters.
When women objectify men(in media) it is USUALLY more subtle, involving something I can only describe as 'emotional objectification'. Twilight is a good example of what I am talking about. The men in that movie aren't men, or even characters. They are things, teddybears, furbies... made entierly to be pleasurable to women; things to acquire with no personality of their own. They are not people in any sense of the word. This is why while the twilight movies have haters and fans of both genders, they are typically more jarring to men then women.Jimothy Sterling said:
DOA volleyball clearly has one reason to exist, and I don't agree with it or games like it at all. It is a problem, and it does make the statement that we're not all equal, especially given the frequency of DOAs character design in other game franchises. But lets not pretend that men are completely immune to this happening to them in games; it does happen (but again, subtly and infrequently). Look how huge Link's female fan-base is, and the things (oh god) that are done to him in the fan fiction made by said fanbase. Link is a character with little to no personality, by the way. All he does is act courageous. Apparently a pretty intimate object doing that is enough to get some girls wet, but I will at least agree that Link might be unintentional. He was a avatar always made to be a blank slate for the needs of anyone wanting to play the role of a hero, even if he ultimately ended up making girl's eyes twinkle brighter then boys. Raiden on the other-hand was admitted by his creator to be "for the ladies". There is a good reason why he looks the way he does, and started with such an 'odd' personality for a MGS character (probably why he absolutely had to have a scene being nude, to). At least, that's what the creator said. So even if Raiden was unsuccessful, he was an 'attempt' to do what you said people aren't.
But again, I will reiterate: it's very infrequent, and not near the problem it is for women. But possible? Has it happened before? Yes. But yeah, women are much more objectified then men, you will get no argument from me there.
When it comes to sexism in games, most of the games I play don't seem to have it at least none that I can see. However, I don't think it should be illegal for games to have female characters that are objectified. But at the same time if a game is only made for men then you're only getting half the audience.
One of my favorite games is Moretal Kombat and MK is no stranger to sexism, but looking at it, my favorite in the series was Mortal Kombat 2, which also had the least amount of sexism.
One of my favorite games is Moretal Kombat and MK is no stranger to sexism, but looking at it, my favorite in the series was Mortal Kombat 2, which also had the least amount of sexism.
We have solved one of the greatest mysteries in the world! Now for the other one.Orekoya said:There you go.1337mokro said:Can Superman's powers harm himself? His hair is basically indestructible if not he'd have his glorious mullet burned of every single time a heat based enemy was encountered. So why should there be an exception for his own heat vision which still works on the same principles and does not seem to be all that strong, compared to other heat powers in the same universe.Clovus said:Like, maybe he just uses his breath to freeze his own leg and then just brushes them off. Or maybe he just, like, burns them off with this eyes.1337mokro said:Question!!! Why does Superman shave his legs? HOW does Superman shave his legs? I mean Greenlantern I can get, Human with alien technology. How does Superman manage though? Industrial strength polymer leg waxing?Ashoten said:I have heard this argument before when people talk about comic book women being objectified. This is the best response I have seen.
Make of it what you will.
Kryptonite razorblades?
Why DID he shave his legs?
Sorry if I'm late to the party, but videos on this subject always result in a million replies per second.
In other words, even comedic parodies of male stereotypes objectify their women, portraying them as the "prize" that all men, fat, lazy or stupid, are somehow entitled to.
On topic, have a read: 5 Ways Modern Men are Trained to Hate Women [http://www.cracked.com/article_19785_5-ways-modern-men-are-trained-to-hate-women.html]
Funny that this example has been brought up. These fat slobs, like Homer Simpson, or Peter Griffin, tend to have hot women at their side, who not only settle for fat, lazy and stupid men, but dutifully endure all their shenanigans and take care of them.DVS BSTrD said:
In other words, even comedic parodies of male stereotypes objectify their women, portraying them as the "prize" that all men, fat, lazy or stupid, are somehow entitled to.
On topic, have a read: 5 Ways Modern Men are Trained to Hate Women [http://www.cracked.com/article_19785_5-ways-modern-men-are-trained-to-hate-women.html]
Yeah I am with you on this one Jim
objectification of men isn't a problem like moviebob put it
"They weren't rendered that way for them fellas (girls) they were rendered that way for YOU, to be male alter ego's for you to strive to be" (something like that not perfect quote)
Anyway the objectification/idealization of men is a problem, but its not NEARLY as bad as females in video games.
Besides I often hear of males turning down girls because "You aren't obedient and sexy enough for me"
but I don't see many girls turning down guys because "You don't look like Kratos"
objectification of men isn't a problem like moviebob put it
"They weren't rendered that way for them fellas (girls) they were rendered that way for YOU, to be male alter ego's for you to strive to be" (something like that not perfect quote)
Anyway the objectification/idealization of men is a problem, but its not NEARLY as bad as females in video games.
Besides I often hear of males turning down girls because "You aren't obedient and sexy enough for me"
but I don't see many girls turning down guys because "You don't look like Kratos"
I'm stating that most of the female protagonists in video games tend to lean more on the Playboy of the Month centerfolds rather than something more 3 dimensional. I'd like to see more games that cater towards other designs and personalities other than the latest model to test out "Jiggle Physics".Gorrath said:Starting off by presuming that an argument comes from self delusion isn't going to change hearts. Some arguments do, in fact, stem from delusion, but I tihnk one should consider that there may be an argument here that does not.Mr. Q said:The following response is towards the "fine gentlemen" that believe they are being objectified just as badly as women are in video games, comic books, etc...
I can never fully understand the level of self-delusion that some people have to truly believe that males are treated like sex symbols or objects of desire on the same level as women. I hate to break it to you, but its not the same!
And don't give me the B.S. that topics like these fall under the "beating a dead horse" category. Regardless of what Monxeroth might have to say about it, these topics keeping coming up is because they are still a problem within the games industry and in other forms of media. I don't care how big of a blanket you've got on hand, using it to hide the elephant in the living room does not make it go away. These are serious problems that need to be addressed and resolved with urgency. It's a problem that neither side cannot ignore forever.
What Jim did today, and what he does every week on the Jimquisition, is taking the first step in solving a problem... and that is admitting there is a problem.
The majority of female characters in games are not properly portrayed in video games.
This whole argument was purely about sex or sexual attraction, but about objectification, sexual or otherwise. Also, simply claiming, "...it's not the same," also doesn't provide any insight.
What is a 'proper' portryal of a female character in a game? What is the 'proper' portryal of a man? Is a sexualized female body improper? What about a sexualized male one? Is a female character without agency improper? What about a psycopathic male who can only solve problems by shooting it with bigger guns? What about a 'nerdy' male scientist who also has no agency whatsoever and needs the thick-necked meat-head with guns-a-blazin' to save him too? Is he objectified because of his lack of agency?
I'd argue that there is no proper way to write a character. I would argue that there is much greater room in gaming and other mediums to expand to other tropes and characterizations.
I can understand your statement on what is the proper portrayal of a female protagonist and its something I'd like to see explored. What about a female protagonist who is a mother of two trying to survive in a zombie-filled wasteland while having to make drastic decisions to protect her children (I.E. does she kill another human being to take his/her food rations to feed her kids)? How about a female soldier having to deal with PTSD and re-adjusting to civilian life? There are hundreds of ideas to be explored but as long as the industry caters to the teenage male demo, video games will never evolve any further.
As I recall, Clark shaved with his own fingernails in Smallville.1337mokro said:We have solved one of the greatest mysteries in the world! Now for the other one.Orekoya said:There you go.1337mokro said:Can Superman's powers harm himself? His hair is basically indestructible if not he'd have his glorious mullet burned of every single time a heat based enemy was encountered. So why should there be an exception for his own heat vision which still works on the same principles and does not seem to be all that strong, compared to other heat powers in the same universe.Clovus said:Like, maybe he just uses his breath to freeze his own leg and then just brushes them off. Or maybe he just, like, burns them off with this eyes.1337mokro said:Question!!! Why does Superman shave his legs? HOW does Superman shave his legs? I mean Greenlantern I can get, Human with alien technology. How does Superman manage though? Industrial strength polymer leg waxing?Ashoten said:I have heard this argument before when people talk about comic book women being objectified. This is the best response I have seen.
Make of it what you will.
Kryptonite razorblades?
Why DID he shave his legs?
I can only imagine that he trims those, in turn, with his teeth.
Being a Kryptonian god sure makes these things complicated.
Exactly,Oskuro said:
I have a problem with portrayals of white men in media (TV media not games)since the stereotype seems to be homer simpson
but on the other hand they have hot chicks for wives/GF's
WTF?
Jim is right on this one
male idealization is a problem
but female objectification is a MUCH MUCH larger and more significant problem
Well i don't live a life on the internet so i haven't seen these topics discussed ad nauseum.Monxeroth said:
I personally found it a enlightening video.
The argument boils down to a separation of ideal and objectification with very little reasoning, it often seems like its all about the sex of the person that makes it.
I have no finalized thoughts on the subject because it all falls apart when you try to find the female 'ideal' rather than objectification, ask a woman to design a character and they will still be attractive.
If I'm coming to any conclusion its that objectification itself isn't something you can try to eliminate because it is something that will always be within the viewer.
So is there a difference between a power fantasy and an objectified character when we exclude the audience? I would think a truly objectified character would have to be seen as something to be owned by other characters, and even if that happened it wouldn't be bad since we would be analyzing this within a piece of art.
This seems much more like an argument against the sexualisation of women in games and that that is apparently causing the all audiences to objectify woman all because of this, which is crazy.
Those dead or alive characters aren't objectified by the game, they are objectified by the audience, and that is far more telling. Blaming the game for this is like complaining oh i don't want to objectify these characters but they are just so damn objectify-able you have to fix it!
I have no finalized thoughts on the subject because it all falls apart when you try to find the female 'ideal' rather than objectification, ask a woman to design a character and they will still be attractive.
If I'm coming to any conclusion its that objectification itself isn't something you can try to eliminate because it is something that will always be within the viewer.
So is there a difference between a power fantasy and an objectified character when we exclude the audience? I would think a truly objectified character would have to be seen as something to be owned by other characters, and even if that happened it wouldn't be bad since we would be analyzing this within a piece of art.
This seems much more like an argument against the sexualisation of women in games and that that is apparently causing the all audiences to objectify woman all because of this, which is crazy.
Those dead or alive characters aren't objectified by the game, they are objectified by the audience, and that is far more telling. Blaming the game for this is like complaining oh i don't want to objectify these characters but they are just so damn objectify-able you have to fix it!
First up Jim, thanks for acknowledging that the idealisation of men is also a problem. A different one to be sure, but a problem nonetheless.
It's been noted that the idealisation of men and objectification of women actually have quite a lot of overlap, in that they both represent a (probably) unattainable standard of physical perfection. So if strong, heroic, "idealised" men are "male power fantasy" (an expression I have absolutely no connection with whatsoever - there's been plenty of discussion about brains vs brawn already and I'm definitely on the brains side) written solely for men, what would an idealised woman be?
I'm being serious. I don't know. It's also been argued plenty of times (couldn't get on this thread earlier, I was at work) that women aren't doing enough to involve themselves in the development process. So, women, what is your idealisation? Is it a "female power fantasy"? Think about it. Then tell me. Then make an indie game about it!
I promise you, though: it'll probably still be something that if created by a male would be considered to be objectification.
It's been noted that the idealisation of men and objectification of women actually have quite a lot of overlap, in that they both represent a (probably) unattainable standard of physical perfection. So if strong, heroic, "idealised" men are "male power fantasy" (an expression I have absolutely no connection with whatsoever - there's been plenty of discussion about brains vs brawn already and I'm definitely on the brains side) written solely for men, what would an idealised woman be?
I'm being serious. I don't know. It's also been argued plenty of times (couldn't get on this thread earlier, I was at work) that women aren't doing enough to involve themselves in the development process. So, women, what is your idealisation? Is it a "female power fantasy"? Think about it. Then tell me. Then make an indie game about it!
I promise you, though: it'll probably still be something that if created by a male would be considered to be objectification.