Jimquisition: Objectification And... Men?

Jimothy Sterling

New member
Apr 18, 2011
5,976
0
0
Objectification And... Men?

A common argument in the ongoing debate over gender and videogames is that women and men both are equally objectified. Is that really true?

Watch Video
 

Jimothy Sterling

New member
Apr 18, 2011
5,976
0
0
So i heard you like beating dead horses :U
Truth =/= Urgency
One does not trivialize the other and vice versa and one is not objectively more harmful even if it would be a lot more frequently occuring for example.

Wonder what tired old subject will be tackled next week
DRM?
Bad Business Practices?

Really starting so sound like a broken record by now but oh well...
 

Jimothy Sterling

New member
Apr 18, 2011
5,976
0
0
Your use of forward slashes has totally changed my way of doing things. I'll do a top ten gaming babes next week.
 

Jimothy Sterling

New member
Apr 18, 2011
5,976
0
0
I'm trying my hardest to find all the videos I've done addressing the idea of male objectification before. I must have been on some killer drugs to forget all those.

=/=/=
 

Jimothy Sterling

New member
Apr 18, 2011
5,976
0
0
What? But that video wasnt scheduled until 3 weeks from now....
Wasnt next week going to be: Selfentitled gamers gonna be selfentitled?
and then after that we would have a following episode about racial stereotypes in games and alternative sexuality-tropes?

Still waiting for that lets play with facecam and funny noises eventually....
 

Big_Isaac

New member
May 24, 2012
26
0
0
are people really complaining about your persona being too smug?
way to miss the point lol
 

Jimothy Sterling

New member
Apr 18, 2011
5,976
0
0
I recall having a similar discussion about the portrayal of men vs the portrayal women in popular culture overall. For from objectifying men, this other person seemed to think that men were unfairly stereotyped as fat idiots who were completely dependent on women to save them from themselves. Now I want you to look at these pictures and ask yourself
http://www.bundyology.com/bal2.jpghttp://4.bp.blogspot.com/-oJk4uH5eXdY/TVylPQrTwnI/AAAAAAAAAFw/whLXMmyXaOE/s1600/peggy.jpg
Which standard is harder to live up to?
 

Jimothy Sterling

New member
Apr 18, 2011
5,976
0
0
jokulhaups said:
Cue the masses claiming, "this isn't a problem, stop talking about it".
Thankfully im not one of those however i will say "Lets talk about it but just not repeat ourselves with the same thing so that it doesnt become as much of a discussion and more of a pls-agree-with-me-footrace"

In the sense that, yeah i like that we're having the discussion i just dont like any discussion, discourse and debate to be onesided or to be basically all the people saying the same thing but formulated differently, thats not what debate is to me.
 

Jack and Calumon

Digimon are cool.
Dec 29, 2008
4,190
0
0
All very good points and arguments that have, unfortunately, been covered many times by many people for about a year now. Sure, people still use this defence so you could argue it bears repeating, but honestly this has been said ad nauseum. No new perspectives were brought up, no new ideas, just the ones covered by everyone else.

Not that it detracts from the points you've made. I firmly agree, it's just dull to see what you've seen before.

Calumon's sleeping, I'm lazy. Bleck.
 

Jimothy Sterling

New member
Apr 18, 2011
5,976
0
0
Sir Christopher McFarlane said:
Yeah, Jim, stop talking about this immediately!
What I like is that you posted what was *really* wanting to be said.

"This is getting old" is always a reliable way to mask, "I dislike this topic."
 

ex275w

New member
Mar 27, 2012
187
0
0
Pretty nice video, you resolved the problem I had with "power fantasies" because I don't feel powerful when playing as certain characters, but I do feel like they have very strong ideals. I feel it is better to call male characters idealized than "power fantasies" since that term only applies in few games. (God of War, Warhammer 40k Space Marine) While Idelaized cna include physically weak but morally strong characters like Lee, Luigi and Link.

I think more companies could attract a female audience if they made male characters for them: Alistair and Thane are great examples of male characters made for women that don't "repel" men and are publisher friendly, but this is only a half-measure, but we need to get publishers to accept females as a audience that can sell a game before we start with truly unique and cool female protagonists.
 

ex275w

New member
Mar 27, 2012
187
0
0
Jimothy Sterling said:
Sir Christopher McFarlane said:
Yeah, Jim, stop talking about this immediately!
What I like is that you posted what was *really* wanting to be said.

"This is getting old" is always a reliable way to mask, "I dislike this topic."
The only topic I dislike is Jim talking about his abs and not showing them.
 

Yellowfish

New member
Nov 8, 2012
88
0
0
The so-called "Jimquisition persona" is what got me into watching your videos in the first place. In fact, I think that it's part of what makes them stand out. Yeah, it's not likeable, but is it really important to have a "likable" talking head? Also, I bet you're doing it for comic effect anyway. It's like complaining about a stand-up comedian exaggerating things or actors in slapstick wasting pies.
 

Ashoten

New member
Aug 29, 2010
251
0
0
I have heard this argument before when people talk about comic book women being objectified. This is the best response I have seen.



Make of it what you will.
 

Jimothy Sterling

New member
Apr 18, 2011
5,976
0
0
Jack and Calumon said:
All very good points and arguments that have, unfortunately, been covered many times by many people for about a year now. Sure, people still use this defence so you could argue it bears repeating, but honestly this has been said ad nauseum. No new perspectives were brought up, no new ideas, just the ones covered by everyone else.

Not that it detracts from the points you've made. I firmly agree, it's just dull to see what you've seen before.

Calumon's sleeping, I'm lazy. Bleck.
It really is and thats why we use terms like broken record and beating a dead horse because well...thats all there is to it if no new perspective is brought up or if someone has already said it better before.
I really see no point in arguing and or debating for well...the sake of debating because we need to debate about the debate and need to debate the debate...*headache*

People often say to other people critisizing opinionvideos like these for: Well if you have something better to say why dont you make it yourself?

Well i would if it wasnt already said better by someone else so im not gonna waste other peoples time with simply watching a video of my opinion that is already very similar to someone elses video with for example better content value.
I have something better to say but its not different enough to justify it being said at all just for the sake of saying it, that kind of defeats the point of debate if it becomes stagnant with the same viewpoints being formulated differently time and time again
 

aba1

New member
Mar 18, 2010
3,248
0
0
Some interesting points and well personally it breaks down like this for me. Companies trying to make it so women can't be used outside a handful of stereotypical roles is a issue but women being used in those roles is not a issue. Designers should be able to create the game that makes the most sense and plays as great as possible and if it does tropes along the way sure what ever. Games are fantasy and should be allowed to do what ever they want and if people don't want to play what they provide that is fine what ever floats your boat but don't say it is wrong or hurts people somehow. If a company is forcing designers to objectify women or develop a role outside of that it is a big problem because they are actively doing it because they are women and hold back the creative process of any game.
 

Jimothy Sterling

New member
Apr 18, 2011
5,976
0
0
Jimothy Sterling said:
Your use of forward slashes has totally changed my way of doing things. I'll do a top ten gaming babes next week.

//////////////////////////////////////////////////// do an episode on money for in game currency and economies this whole diablo 3 fiasco has led me to believe that the whole idea and focus is silly but I could be wrong.

Seriously though, the thing you have to remember about video game issues is that they readily solve themselves and never snowball out of control. They also lack any nuance and cannot be approached from multiple angles or points of discussions. Further, continuously championing or talking about a topic has never led to change. Also I am a starfish and I live on the moon.
 

grumpymooselion

New member
May 5, 2011
66
0
0
Good points Jim, but, perhaps you've forgotten - there are male characters made for a female audience.

Male characters made for specifically a female audience, usually a teen female audience, over in Japan. They're those effeminate pretty boys so much of the western male audience seems to hate. So, oddly enough, when male characters are made specially 'for women' the reaction is about what the female reaction is to female characters made to appeal to men.

Personally I always rather liked the prettier eastern male characters, if for no other reason that they were a breath of fresh air, an escape, from the constant barrage of overly muscled, overly masculine and utterly nonsensical male characters of western games.
 

Imp_Emissary

Mages Rule, and Dragons Fly!
Legacy
Aug 9, 2020
2,315
1
3
Country
United States
Monxeroth said:
So i heard you like beating dead horses :U
Truth =/= Urgency
One does not trivialize the other and vice versa and one is not objectively more harmful even if it would be a lot more frequently occuring for example.

Wonder what tired old subject will be tackled next week
DRM?
Bad Business Practices?

Really starting so sound like a broken record by now but oh well...
Don't you think the reason people, (Not just Jim, Bob made this same point a good while ago), keep talking about these problems may be because they haven't stopped being problems?

Ignoring the problems won't make them get better.
Jimothy Sterling said:
I bet on this episode of Road Runner, the coyote tries to catch the bird and fails. Fuck this show.
Every dog has his/her day. Even Coyotes.

He did finally get the Bird on Robot Chicken.
 

Jimothy Sterling

New member
Apr 18, 2011
5,976
0
0
Monxeroth said:
Jack and Calumon said:
All very good points and arguments that have, unfortunately, been covered many times by many people for about a year now. Sure, people still use this defence so you could argue it bears repeating, but honestly this has been said ad nauseum. No new perspectives were brought up, no new ideas, just the ones covered by everyone else.

Not that it detracts from the points you've made. I firmly agree, it's just dull to see what you've seen before.

Calumon's sleeping, I'm lazy. Bleck.
It really is and thats why we use terms like broken record and beating a dead horse because well...thats all there is to it if no new perspective is brought up or if someone has already said it better before.
I really see no point in arguing and or debating for well...the sake of debating because we need to debate about the debate and need to debate the debate...*headache*

People often say to other people critisizing opinionvideos like these for: Well if you have something better to say why dont you make it yourself?

Well i would if it wasnt already said better by someone else so im not gonna waste other peoples time with simply watching a video of my opinion that is already very similar to someone elses video with for example better content value.
I have something better to say but its not different enough to justify it being said at all just for the sake of saying it, that kind of defeats the point of debate if it becomes stagnant with the same viewpoints being formulated differently time and time again
If that was your problem why did you not say that instead of suggesting I'd tackled this topic in my series already, which is factually incorrect?

If you didn't like the video because you say someone else said similar things, whatever. That's not what you said though. You said my show had covered this exact topic before.
 

klown

New member
Jun 6, 2012
250
0
0
Monxeroth said:
jokulhaups said:
Cue the masses claiming, "this isn't a problem, stop talking about it".
Thankfully I'm not one of those however I will say "Lets talk about it but just not repeat ourselves with the same thing so that it doesn't become as much of a discussion and more of a "pls-agree-with-me-footrace""

In the sense that, yeah i like that we're having the discussion I just don't like any discussion, discourse and debate to be one-sided or to be basically all the people saying the same thing but formulated differently, that's not what debate is to me.
Actually that is what a debate is. The point of a debate is to get your point across, and change people's minds. You do this by reiterating your point in as many different ways as it takes to get the furthest person to your side. That is the how you debate, and even a simple discussion.
 

Sepko

New member
Feb 16, 2010
180
0
0
Monxeroth said:
jokulhaups said:
Cue the masses claiming, "this isn't a problem, stop talking about it".
Thankfully im not one of those however i will say "Lets talk about it but just not repeat ourselves with the same thing so that it doesnt become as much of a discussion and more of a pls-agree-with-me-footrace"

In the sense that, yeah i like that we're having the discussion i just dont like any discussion, discourse and debate to be onesided or to be basically all the people saying the same thing but formulated differently, thats not what debate is to me.
This is almost like debating how Creationism has equal standing with Evolution as a science.
Arguments can be one-sided and still be interesting.
 

Jimothy Sterling

New member
Apr 18, 2011
5,976
0
0
Jimothy Sterling said:
Sir Christopher McFarlane said:
Yeah, Jim, stop talking about this immediately!
What I like is that you posted what was *really* wanting to be said.

"This is getting old" is always a reliable way to mask, "I dislike this topic."
Sure it is but same goes for the reverse situation where someone who faces counterarguments or critique goes "Oh youre just saying this is getting old because you really dont like this and you dont want me to talk about it QQQ" please stop sounding like tom preston haha.

Its the same way people label other people who disagree with them on the internet as "trolls and haters". Theyre not trolls and haters they just have a different viewpoint which is a healthy thing for a debate and since the one being critisized to begin with doesnt like different viewpoints or critique well its very reliable and easy to say "eurgh, stupid trolls and haters hating on my videos because theyre haters"
 

DrunkenElfMage

New member
Aug 17, 2011
124
0
0
Jack and Calumon said:
All very good points and arguments that have, unfortunately, been covered many times by many people for about a year now. Sure, people still use this defence so you could argue it bears repeating, but honestly this has been said ad nauseum. No new perspectives were brought up, no new ideas, just the ones covered by everyone else.

Not that it detracts from the points you've made. I firmly agree, it's just dull to see what you've seen before.

Calumon's sleeping, I'm lazy. Bleck.
You'd be surprised to find out just how many people don't know or haven't seen things that you would think that everyone should have heard about already.

I know people who haven't seen Star Wars, anime fans who haven't watched Cowboy Bebop, shooter fans who haven't played Half Life, Half Life 2, or Portal.

Just because you think everyone has heard this already, doesn't mean they have and if a tenth of the audience Jim has has learned something new, then I would say this is a video well made.
 

Jimothy Sterling

New member
Apr 18, 2011
5,976
0
0
Sepko said:
Monxeroth said:
jokulhaups said:
Cue the masses claiming, "this isn't a problem, stop talking about it".
Thankfully im not one of those however i will say "Lets talk about it but just not repeat ourselves with the same thing so that it doesnt become as much of a discussion and more of a pls-agree-with-me-footrace"

In the sense that, yeah i like that we're having the discussion i just dont like any discussion, discourse and debate to be onesided or to be basically all the people saying the same thing but formulated differently, thats not what debate is to me.
This is almost like debating how Creationism has equal standing with Evolution as a science.
Arguments can be one-sided and still be interesting.
Sure they can but in most cases theyre not.
Consistency is good sure but, just repeating for the sake of repeating makes no progress whatsoever towards anything.
It is and always will be more interesting when it is two-sided however.
Yes one-sidedness can SOMETIMES be interesting in a few rare cases (this isnt one of them btw)
but more often than not the two-sided debate is healthier and a lot more interesting
 

MaxwellMouse

New member
Jun 7, 2010
19
0
0
Monxeroth, it is not everyone has seen all internet videos before. Even if it is a covered topic, that does not make it any less valid or relevant. I see people saying things like this all the time, as recent as the whole Dragon`s Crown issue.
 

RaikuFA

New member
Jun 12, 2009
4,371
0
0
Theres some other issues that need to be addressed in this debate. Like the fact that Senran Kagura might never make it outside of Japan due to the west being prudish and crying sexist at anyything that has boobs.
 

Sepko

New member
Feb 16, 2010
180
0
0
grumpymooselion said:
Good points Jim, but, perhaps you've forgotten - there are male characters made for a female audience.

Male characters made for specifically a female audience, usually a teen female audience, over in Japan.
And we're done, those games are sold almost exclusively in Japan, Jim's mostly talking about Western attitudes with the objectification thing. That's including the Dead or Alive Beach Volleyball footage he used, cuz that was sold in the West.
 

Xman490

Doctorate in Danger
May 29, 2010
1,186
0
0
Jim has used the DoA: Beach Volleyball trailer as an example of female objectification way too much. Granted, it's a pure example, but it's in almost every video Jim has done regarding the topic of women.
At least he expanded his scope to Dragon's Crown and sometimes winks at Other M.

Speaking of consistently using examples, Jim also uses Gears of War, Uncharted, and God of War as "male idealization" examples, though not quite as much as DoA:BV.
 

Jimothy Sterling

New member
Apr 18, 2011
5,976
0
0
Imp Emissary said:
Monxeroth said:
So i heard you like beating dead horses :U
Truth =/= Urgency
One does not trivialize the other and vice versa and one is not objectively more harmful even if it would be a lot more frequently occuring for example.

Wonder what tired old subject will be tackled next week
DRM?
Bad Business Practices?

Really starting so sound like a broken record by now but oh well...
Don't you think the reason people, (Not just Jim, Bob made this same point a good while ago), keep talking about these problems may be because they haven't stopped being problems?

Ignoring the problems won't make them get better.
Jimothy Sterling said:
I bet on this episode of Road Runner, the coyote tries to catch the bird and fails. Fuck this show.
Every dog has his/her day. Even Coyotes.

He did finally get the Bird on Robot Chicken.
Again
Truth=/= Urgency
A problem may be a problem, just not as harmful or urgent as people make it out to be yknow
I never said to ignore them so thats just a bad strawman right there i said: Sure you can debate something over and over again but please include a few more viewpoints and try to find valid grounds in viewpoints other than your own and at least attempt to not just repeat yourself for the sake of repeating.
 

Darken12

New member
Apr 16, 2011
1,061
0
0
Thank you, Jim. It's like you know exactly what to say to the douchenozzles who cover their ears and go "LALALA SEXISM DOES NOT EXIST!"

The thing that annoys me the most is the endless flak, the stubborn refusal to face facts and own up to the toxicity of the industry.
 

Jimothy Sterling

New member
Apr 18, 2011
5,976
0
0
Xman490 said:
Jim has used the DoA: Beach Volleyball trailer as an example of female objectification way too much. Granted, it's a pure example, but it's in almost every video Jim has done regarding the topic of women.
Basically because it's a killer example.

I can happily use some different footage. That one just works so damn well.
 

Sepko

New member
Feb 16, 2010
180
0
0
Monxeroth said:
Sepko said:
Monxeroth said:
jokulhaups said:
Cue the masses claiming, "this isn't a problem, stop talking about it".
Thankfully im not one of those however i will say "Lets talk about it but just not repeat ourselves with the same thing so that it doesnt become as much of a discussion and more of a pls-agree-with-me-footrace"

In the sense that, yeah i like that we're having the discussion i just dont like any discussion, discourse and debate to be onesided or to be basically all the people saying the same thing but formulated differently, thats not what debate is to me.
This is almost like debating how Creationism has equal standing with Evolution as a science.
Arguments can be one-sided and still be interesting.
Sure they can but in most cases theyre not.
Consistency is good sure but, just repeating for the sake of repeating makes no progress whatsoever towards anything.
It is and always will be more interesting when it is two-sided however.
Yes one-sidedness can SOMETIMES be interesting in a few rare cases (this isnt one of them btw)
but more often than not the two-sided debate is healthier and a lot more interesting
This is assuming that the second side had any ground to stand on.
 

Muspelheim

New member
Apr 7, 2011
2,023
0
0
Even if the arguement that both male and female characters are equally objectified would be entirely true, I can't for the life of me see how that solves anything. It would only make the problem worse, wouldn't it? It doesn't really seem like another reason to just ignore it and go on as usual if the problem is that much larger.
 

Something Amyss

Aswyng and Amyss
Dec 3, 2008
24,760
0
0
But Jim, you magnificent stallion, if I don't treat them as equal I have to admit that maybe there is an actual problem that should be addressed. Why would I do that when I can yell at people to shut up and offer myself up to false martyrdom?

Help, help! I'm being oppressed!

Ashoten said:
I have heard this argument before when people talk about comic book women being objectified. This is the best response I have seen.



Make of it what you will.
They need bigger boobs.

<..>

Monxeroth said:
People often say to other people critisizing opinionvideos like these for: Well if you have something better to say why dont you make it yourself?

Well i would if it wasnt already said better by someone else so im not gonna waste other peoples time with simply watching a video of my opinion that is already very similar to someone elses video with for example better content value.
I have something better to say but its not different enough to justify it being said at all just for the sake of saying it, that kind of defeats the point of debate if it becomes stagnant with the same viewpoints being formulated differently time and time again
So instead, you're beating a dead horse by insisting that it's all been said.

...This is getting meta. Is this a performance art piece or something?
 

Jimothy Sterling

New member
Apr 18, 2011
5,976
0
0
MaxwellMouse said:
Monxeroth, it is not everyone has seen all internet videos before. Even if it is a covered topic, that does not make it any less valid or relevant. I see people saying things like this all the time, as recent as the whole Dragon`s Crown issue.
It does if there is nothing new brought to the table in a long time then yes, that does make it less relevant since its blown out of proportion and not as equally urgent as it is true yknow >_>

Less valid, most likely not
 

Jimothy Sterling

New member
Apr 18, 2011
5,976
0
0
Zachary Amaranth said:
But Jim, you magnificent stallion, if I don't treat them as equal I have to admit that maybe there is an actual problem that should be addressed. Why would I do that when I can yell at people to shut up and offer myself up to false martyrdom?

Help, help! I'm being oppressed!

Ashoten said:
I have heard this argument before when people talk about comic book women being objectified. This is the best response I have seen.



Make of it what you will.
They need bigger boobs.

<..>

Monxeroth said:
People often say to other people critisizing opinionvideos like these for: Well if you have something better to say why dont you make it yourself?

Well i would if it wasnt already said better by someone else so im not gonna waste other peoples time with simply watching a video of my opinion that is already very similar to someone elses video with for example better content value.
I have something better to say but its not different enough to justify it being said at all just for the sake of saying it, that kind of defeats the point of debate if it becomes stagnant with the same viewpoints being formulated differently time and time again
So instead, you're beating a dead horse by insisting that it's all been said.

...This is getting meta. Is this a performance art piece or something?
Spam all the metas
 

Jimothy Sterling

New member
Apr 18, 2011
5,976
0
0
Sepko said:
Monxeroth said:
Sepko said:
Monxeroth said:
jokulhaups said:
Cue the masses claiming, "this isn't a problem, stop talking about it".
Thankfully im not one of those however i will say "Lets talk about it but just not repeat ourselves with the same thing so that it doesnt become as much of a discussion and more of a pls-agree-with-me-footrace"

In the sense that, yeah i like that we're having the discussion i just dont like any discussion, discourse and debate to be onesided or to be basically all the people saying the same thing but formulated differently, thats not what debate is to me.
This is almost like debating how Creationism has equal standing with Evolution as a science.
Arguments can be one-sided and still be interesting.
Sure they can but in most cases theyre not.
Consistency is good sure but, just repeating for the sake of repeating makes no progress whatsoever towards anything.
It is and always will be more interesting when it is two-sided however.
Yes one-sidedness can SOMETIMES be interesting in a few rare cases (this isnt one of them btw)
but more often than not the two-sided debate is healthier and a lot more interesting
This is assuming that the second side had any ground to stand on.
Which you should always assume going in to a debate if you want to be taken seriously
 

Bke

New member
May 13, 2013
59
0
0
I have a question, that's just an aside, what if men are being objectified by way of the marketing?

Understand I do believe that objectification of women in games is a serious issue ad have sent e-mails to several companies explaining this. However I wonder if part of the issue isn't that game companies have told us what to want to an extent? I mean if all I get from them is bums and boobs won't that mean that's all I want, because I know of no other representation in games?

I know what I'm saying is perhaps a bit convoluted but I have yet to buy bioshock infinite because I'm not sure if that would be sending the right message to publishers, telling them that I respond to that kind of marketing, that I want more "gun-bros" and "boob-girls". And then I'm forced to choose between buying a game I want and telling publishers that what they're doing is cool.

I know in previous episodes Jim has said that we should support the games we like, and speak out against negative practices, but I don't see something like this being resolved in such a manner when I have very few options to "vote with my wallet". So how do we break the cycle? Of course supporting those games with fairly represented women is the way to go, but so far the are only two triple-A titles on the horizon, and nothing else. And I really do want bioshock infinite.

It's pretty messed up that I find myself in such a dilemma.
 

squid5580

New member
Feb 20, 2008
5,106
0
0
Ya when you put it like that and focus pretty much on aesthetics there is an unequal playing ground. From where I am sitting both sexes are on equal ground because it isn't the clothes or the chest size that is the problem. Storytelling is. Walking gun saves boobs from evil. When they take the keyboards away from the chimps and give them too people with I.Q.s in the double digits then we can have this discussion (if it is still warranted).
 

Hap2

New member
May 26, 2010
280
0
0
Jimothy Sterling said:
Sir Christopher McFarlane said:
Yeah, Jim, stop talking about this immediately!
What I like is that you posted what was *really* wanting to be said.

"This is getting old" is always a reliable way to mask, "I dislike this topic."
A sad truth.

As for those who really are just tired: just because good arguments exist showcasing a real problem does not mean that the problem has magically gone away. You have to get up and do something about it too; the grass isn't going to mow itself.

There is nothing worse than a bunch of people who agree that something must be done, yet do fuck all when it comes to actually realizing that change in the world, and then proceed to complain that the problem is "getting old" when they get bored of showing their moral outrage.

If some of you are really tired of hearing about the problem, then get off your rears and do something about it. Write a book, spread the word, and make videos; do something for crap's sake rather than whine about how "old" the problem is, because nothing is more "old" than a gaggle of apathetic geese honking and hissing at passing cars.
 

Dire Sloth

Filthy Casual
Jun 23, 2012
150
0
0
Reading the first few comments is... kind of upsetting.
grumpymooselion said:
Good points Jim, but, perhaps you've forgotten - there are male characters made for a female audience.
Name five please.
 
Apr 28, 2008
14,634
0
0
There's also the fact that if men are treated so poorly, why the hell isn't anyone speaking up about it? The only times I hear about it are when women or any other minority points out how poorly they're represented.

If there's a problem, fucking make noise and try to do something about it. That's what women and many others are trying to do. Just because you don't care doesn't mean everyone else should not care and we should all shut up about everything. That's just stupid.
 

Jimothy Sterling

New member
Apr 18, 2011
5,976
0
0
Monxeroth said:
Jack and Calumon said:
All very good points and arguments that have, unfortunately, been covered many times by many people for about a year now. Sure, people still use this defence so you could argue it bears repeating, but honestly this has been said ad nauseum. No new perspectives were brought up, no new ideas, just the ones covered by everyone else.

Not that it detracts from the points you've made. I firmly agree, it's just dull to see what you've seen before.

Calumon's sleeping, I'm lazy. Bleck.
It really is and thats why we use terms like broken record and beating a dead horse because well...thats all there is to it if no new perspective is brought up or if someone has already said it better before.
I really see no point in arguing and or debating for well...the sake of debating because we need to debate about the debate and need to debate the debate...*headache*

People often say to other people critisizing opinionvideos like these for: Well if you have something better to say why dont you make it yourself?

Well i would if it wasnt already said better by someone else so im not gonna waste other peoples time with simply watching a video of my opinion that is already very similar to someone elses video with for example better content value.
I have something better to say but its not different enough to justify it being said at all just for the sake of saying it, that kind of defeats the point of debate if it becomes stagnant with the same viewpoints being formulated differently time and time again
I agree completely. Why formulate an argument, think on an issue, and and add your voice to the discussion when you can just drop a link on a forum page with a smarmy "I'll just leave this here" and have your point immediately proven for you. People should never discuss a topic once someone has talked about it. Death to those who speak for themselves!!!!!!
 

Jimothy Sterling

New member
Apr 18, 2011
5,976
0
0
Monxeroth said:
Again
Truth=/= Urgency
A problem may be a problem, just not as harmful or urgent as people make it out to be yknow
I never said to ignore them so thats just a bad strawman right there i said: Sure you can debate something over and over again but please include a few more viewpoints and try to find valid grounds in viewpoints other than your own and at least attempt to not just repeat yourself for the sake of repeating.
I've never pretended that every episode I do will cover new ground. In fact, several episodes -- some of which I'm most proud of -- do little more than redraw established arguments. These episodes are made, by design, to re-tell a story in a way that I hope will be understood by those who weren't "getting it" before. A new translation, if you will. Or at least having the words coming from someone such people would be more willing to listen to. I have a decent size audience, and I'd like to use my influences in circles not normally reached by others for some sort of good.

If this topic is nothing new to you, that's fine. I absolutely cannot argue that back to you. However, you're not the blueprint of the human race. Nor am I, as much as it pains me to finally have to admit that.

You said it yourself -- truth=/=urgency. You're right. There's nothing "urgent" about this show. It's a consumer and culture affairs show and I tackle things at my own pace. The existence of this episode does not destroy the existence of other ones.

My only advice to you is, if you're truly tired of my consumer and cultural affairs show tackling consumer and cultural affairs, just stick to Loading Ready Run, which also goes up here on a Monday morning and is generally damn funny.
 

Jimothy Sterling

New member
Apr 18, 2011
5,976
0
0
Bke said:
I have a question, that's just an aside, what if men are being objectified by way of the marketing?

Understand I do believe that objectification of women in games is a serious issue ad have sent e-mails to several companies explaining this. However I wonder if part of the issue isn't that game companies have told us what to want to an extent? I mean if all I get from them is bums and boobs won't that mean that's all I want, because I know of no other representation in games?

I know what I'm saying is perhaps a bit convoluted but I have yet to buy bioshock infinite because I'm not sure if that would be sending the right message to publishers, telling them that I respond to that kind of marketing, that I want more "gun-bros" and "boob-girls". And then I'm forced to choose between buying a game I want and telling publishers that what they're doing is cool.

I know in previous episodes Jim has said that we should support the games we like, and speak out against negative practices, but I don't see something like this being resolved in such a manner when I have very few options to "vote with my wallet". So how do we break the cycle? Of course supporting those games with fairly represented women is the way to go, but so far the are only two triple-A titles on the horizon, and nothing else. And I really do want bioshock infinite.

It's pretty messed up that I find myself in such a dilemma.
Well of course only if we objectively assume that objectifying can objectively only exist for one objective purpose to begin with, ie sex appeal in this case.
As in, objectifying is one thing and one definition only and thus can only be applied to females in that sense

But what if we then assume that objectification isnt just about that?
 

JenSeven

Crazy person! Avoid!
Oct 19, 2010
695
0
0
Dear Jim, your argument is invalid, this is due to the Postal Dude. He is a male character that is in no way idolised nor should he be. He is at best a terrible human being.
 

cookyy2k

New member
Aug 14, 2009
799
0
0
Well I took one look at the title and my reaction was "oh for f*** sake", watched it and like every "gender politics in games" jimquisition or anything on the internet my reaction was well founded. I am do sick of hearing about this "issue", I get it, I really do. Telling me 20 more times isn't going to make me get it any more and neither is it going to change the minds of those who refuse to get it. All it does is make me apathetic, once upon a time I was active over this issue, now I'm so sick of hearing about it from everywhere I avoid getting involved.

There will always be both extremes to this, there will always be those who rail against any attempt for equality and there will always be those waiting to blow any little perceived inequality up to ridiculous proportions. Frankly I'm sick of both sides, I'm sick of the gamer kiddies making all male gamers look bad and I'm sick of every little thing being some giant drama. If everyone stopped being so reactionary to everything and chose when to speak up instead of it being constant it will be noticed a lot better than a constant white noise of nonissues drowning out the few actual issues.
 

maninahat

New member
Nov 8, 2007
4,398
0
0
DVS BSTrD said:
I recall having a similar discussion about the portrayal of men vs the portrayal women in popular culture overall. For from objectifying men, this other person seemed to think that men were unfairly stereotyped as fat idiots who were completely dependent on women to save them from themselves. Now I want you to look at these pictures and ask yourself
http://www.bundyology.com/bal2.jpghttp://4.bp.blogspot.com/-oJk4uH5eXdY/TVylPQrTwnI/AAAAAAAAAFw/whLXMmyXaOE/s1600/peggy.jpg
Which standard is harder to live up to?
There's some truth to the issue that men always get portrayed as fat idiots, and women as smart and beautiful. But in most specific cases, the fat idiot male is usually the focus of the story: it is Peter Griffon/Homer Simpson/Fred Flinstone who get the majority of the screen time, comes up with some wacky scheme, gets into hyjinx, and generally has the emotional arc at the centre of the story. Women are often relegated to a supporting role or side plot (your Marge Simpsons, Wilmas etc), and they often end up as the nagging, serious, fun-hating voice of reason.

The classic sitcom model is an age old parody of the traditional, nuclear family; the recurring themes are blue collar working men, pretty house wives, and precocious children. That's generally the reason we tend to see the fat idiot husband, the overworked smart wife, and the asshole children: they are achetypes, playing against stereotypes.
 

Legion

Were it so easy
Oct 2, 2008
7,190
0
0
Muspelheim said:
Even if the arguement that both male and female characters are equally objectified would be entirely true, I can't for the life of me see how that solves anything. It would only make the problem worse, wouldn't it? It doesn't really seem like another reason to just ignore it and go on as usual if the problem is that much larger.
The thing is, that most people from what I have seen do not use the "They are both objectified" argument as a way of suggesting that it should be ignored, but as a way of pointing out that the issue isn't with bad female characters, but with bad characters overall.

That writers should be working on writing decent characters in the first place, rather than simply trying to fix female characters.

Note that I am not expressing my own opinion, merely pointing out what I have seen when people actually talk about male objectification.

Although I would say that despite most male characters being written to appeal to male gamers. They pretty much exist to make "witty" one liners and shoot things. So while they are not "objectified", they are pretty bad in their own right, as the "ideal" male is apparently a meat head with the inability to converse like a normal person, no emotions or value for human life.

Which I think is the point people who make the argument are trying to get across.

Well some of them.

There does seem to be a fair amount of people who actually think the muscular men in gaming are the equivalent of the sexualised women. Which is worrying.

cookyy2k said:
Frankly I'm sick of both sides, I'm sick of the gamer kiddies making all male gamers look bad and I'm sick of every little thing being some giant drama.
Amen to that.
 

Fappy

\[T]/
May 1, 2020
12,010
0
0
Country
United States
Did Jim just orgasm after the credits? If so, I don't think that's the first time he's done that on camera >.<
 

bartholen_v1legacy

A dyslexic man walks into a bra.
Jan 24, 2009
3,057
0
0
Yes, maybe this topic is well trodden, but it doesn't make it any less important.

As for my stance, people who say "Well men are objectified as well so that makes Jiggly McBoobie LaTits character designs okay" can go fuck themselves. The whole thing can be summed up in two sentences: Male video game characters tend to be power fantasies for men. Female video game characters tend to be sexual fantasies for men.

End of story.
 

Imp_Emissary

Mages Rule, and Dragons Fly!
Legacy
Aug 9, 2020
2,315
1
3
Country
United States
Monxeroth said:
Imp Emissary said:
Monxeroth said:
So i heard you like beating dead horses :U
Truth =/= Urgency
One does not trivialize the other and vice versa and one is not objectively more harmful even if it would be a lot more frequently occuring for example.

Wonder what tired old subject will be tackled next week
DRM?
Bad Business Practices?

Really starting so sound like a broken record by now but oh well...
Don't you think the reason people, (Not just Jim, Bob made this same point a good while ago), keep talking about these problems may be because they haven't stopped being problems?

Ignoring the problems won't make them get better.
Jimothy Sterling said:
I bet on this episode of Road Runner, the coyote tries to catch the bird and fails. Fuck this show.
Every dog has his/her day. Even Coyotes.

He did finally get the Bird on Robot Chicken.
Again
Truth=/= Urgency
A problem may be a problem, just not as harmful or urgent as people make it out to be yknow
I never said to ignore them so thats just a bad strawman right there i said: Sure you can debate something over and over again but please include a few more viewpoints and try to find valid grounds in viewpoints other than your own and at least attempt to not just repeat yourself for the sake of repeating.
So I shouldn't just keep saying "Truth=/=Urgency"?
Also, you are ignoring that while you may not find this problem to be a big deal, others clearly do. Such is a viewpoint held by many, and it is a view point with valid grounds. If people didn't care about these problems, they (the general gaming public), and journalist wouldn't be talking about them.

The point Jim made is being repeated, not for the sake of repeating, but because people are ignoring it. As I said, and as you complained, this is not the first time someone has made this point. Yet people continue to say things aren't that bad, and that we shouldn't be talking about it. It is being repeated, so it won't be forgotten.

The record isn't broken. People just want to play it again, and again, and again. With reason.
 

Jimothy Sterling

New member
Apr 18, 2011
5,976
0
0
Jimothy Sterling said:
Monxeroth said:
Again
Truth=/= Urgency
A problem may be a problem, just not as harmful or urgent as people make it out to be yknow
I never said to ignore them so thats just a bad strawman right there i said: Sure you can debate something over and over again but please include a few more viewpoints and try to find valid grounds in viewpoints other than your own and at least attempt to not just repeat yourself for the sake of repeating.
I've never pretended that every episode I do will cover new ground. In fact, several episodes -- some of which I'm most proud of -- do little more than redraw established arguments. These episodes are made, by design, to re-tell a story in a way that I hope will be understood by those who weren't "getting it" before. A new translation, if you will. Or at least having the words coming from someone such people would be more willing to listen to.

If this topic is nothing new to you, that's fine. I absolutely cannot argue that back to you. However, you're not the blueprint of the human race. Nor am I, as much as it pains me to finally have to admit that.

You said it yourself -- truth=/=urgency. You're right. There's nothing "urgent" about this show. It's a consumer and culture affairs show and I tackle things at my own pace. The existence of this episode does not destroy the existence of other ones.

My only advice to you is, if you're truly tired of my consumer and cultural affairs show tackling consumer and cultural affairs, just stick to Loading Ready Run, which also goes up here on a Monday morning and is generally damn funny.
Why? Because i dont happen to agree with this one in particular or the way it presents itself while there are numerous other Jimquisition episodes that i deem fucking gold-worthy (no sarcasm intended, im actually being serious real talk here ok?)

Its just a mere observation and i havent said and or implied that you should just quit and never do this again, its your show, you have the right and the only entitlement to anything here to do as you wish.
If these subjects and these types of videos are what you want to produce in the future then, ok, do that, your videos and your show and my subjective opinion or anyone elses for that matter should NEVER be the reason to compromise the integrity and the presentation of your videos.


Like you said, some people do not like the jimquisition persona and presentation.
...and? who gives a flying fuck if people dont like it or not?
Internet and videos like these are personality driven - Totalbiscuit

So i find it just contradictory for people to demand change in personality and peronas when..thats what some people are here for, thats why im here >_>
 

Erttheking

Member
Legacy
Apr 23, 2020
10,846
1
3
Country
United States
This thread is going to end in a flame war. This cannot be avoided. I really do want to talk about this in a calm and rational manner but...that's just not gonna happen, let's face it.
 

Jimothy Sterling

New member
Apr 18, 2011
5,976
0
0
cookyy2k said:
Well I took one look at the title and my reaction was "oh for f*** sake", watched it and like every "gender politics in games" jimquisition or anything on the internet my reaction was well founded. I am do sick of hearing about this "issue", I get it, I really do.
There comes a point where, if a child sticks his tongue in an electrical outlet enough times, we must ask if it's the child's fault he keeps involuntarily shitting his Teddy Ruxpin pajamas.
 

1337mokro

New member
Dec 24, 2008
1,503
0
0
Ashoten said:
I have heard this argument before when people talk about comic book women being objectified. This is the best response I have seen.



Make of it what you will.
Question!!! Why does Superman shave his legs? HOW does Superman shave his legs? I mean Greenlantern I can get, Human with alien technology. How does Superman manage though? Industrial strength polymer leg waxing?
 

cefm

New member
Mar 26, 2010
380
0
0
The topic Jim addresses specifically of "are men objectified in video games in the same manner as women?" is treated quite fairly and well I think. However it doesn't address the broader issue of whether or not modern western civilization also presents unhealthy or counterproductive role-models for men. I think that there are plenty of negative and unhealthy roles/stereotypes/expectations/messages being shoved down the throats of young men both regarding their expected physical appearance, societal roles, interactions with other men/women etc. that are worth discussing and dealing with. But to the extent that these roles/portrayals of men appear in videogames it is not "objectifying" in the strictest sense.
 

Jimothy Sterling

New member
Apr 18, 2011
5,976
0
0
cookyy2k said:
Well I took one look at the title and my reaction was "oh for f*** sake", watched it and like every "gender politics in games" jimquisition or anything on the internet my reaction was well founded. I am do sick of hearing about this "issue", I get it, I really do. Telling me 20 more times isn't going to make me get it any more and neither is it going to change the minds of those who refuse to get it. All it does is make me apathetic, once upon a time I was active over this issue, now I'm so sick of hearing about it from everywhere I avoid getting involved.

There will always be both extremes to this, there will always be those who rail against any attempt for equality and there will always be those waiting to blow any little perceived inequality up to ridiculous proportions. Frankly I'm sick of both sides, I'm sick of the gamer kiddies making all male gamers look bad and I'm sick of every little thing being some giant drama. If everyone stopped being so reactionary to everything and chose when to speak up instead of it being constant it will be noticed a lot better than a constant white noise of nonissues drowning out the few actual issues.
Well like jim said this is hardly a show or videos made for the intention of yknow, changing anyones mind who already agrees with him.
 

l3o2828

New member
Mar 24, 2011
955
0
0
RaikuFA said:
Theres some other issues that need to be addressed in this debate. Like the fact that Senran Kagura might never make it outside of Japan due to the west being prudish and crying sexist at anyything that has boobs.
You're being sarcastic, right?
Please tell me you are.
 

Harker067

New member
Sep 21, 2010
236
0
0
CrossLOPER said:
But the women are being idealized as well! Who doesn't want an attractive female who depends on her man?
...depends on her man.... I can think of a lot of people that don't want that (me for starters).




Thanks Jim for once again proving that my cringing dread at seeing a topic come up in your show is entirely baseless.
 

Something Amyss

Aswyng and Amyss
Dec 3, 2008
24,760
0
0
RaikuFA said:
Theres some other issues that need to be addressed in this debate. Like the fact that Senran Kagura might never make it outside of Japan due to the west being prudish and crying sexist at anyything that has boobs.
INORITE, remember when Bayonetta was banned in the states for showing boobs?

Muspelheim said:
Even if the arguement that both male and female characters are equally objectified would be entirely true, I can't for the life of me see how that solves anything. It would only make the problem worse, wouldn't it? It doesn't really seem like another reason to just ignore it and go on as usual if the problem is that much larger.
The argument is "what happens to my sex doesn't bother me, so what happens to your sex shouldn't bother you." The intent is to dismiss claims that it's bad because the side that is claiming equity doesn't mind (though they get the good end of the equation anyway). Which is why claims to false equivalence should be addressed in the first place.

I find it further interesting the obsession with "gamer girlfriends" and "girl gamers" and the bitterness towards the way women (and popular culture in general) view gamers as sad lonely basement-dwelling man-children virgin whatevers, when the mainstream gaming community is so negative towards women, bordering on hostile, unless they play "casual" games or certain MMOs. It's more or less "no wimminz allowed!" followed by "why do girls think my hobby is silly and childish and why can't I find a gamer girl!"

Which is another reason this dialogue needs to exist. It's a shame so many people shout it down before thinking.
 

Jennacide

New member
Dec 6, 2007
1,019
0
0
Something I think you should have covered Jim was that the claims of men being just as "objectified" also like to ignore the much wider diversity in male heroes. The number of female protagonists that aren't boob and sex caddies can be counted on one hand.
 

Something Amyss

Aswyng and Amyss
Dec 3, 2008
24,760
0
0
CrossLOPER said:
But the women are being idealized as well! Who doesn't want an attractive female who depends on her man?
I'd think lesbians, for one.

Though I'd be really disturbed if it turned out that the male ideal is a woman who is essentially a pet with benefits.
 

illiterate

New member
Sep 10, 2008
66
0
0
cefm said:
Question!!! Why does Superman shave his legs? HOW does Superman shave his legs? I mean Greenlantern I can get, Human with alien technology. How does Superman manage though? Industrial strength polymer leg waxing?
1) Superman is an Alien
2) Why assume his species has leg hair?
3) Why assume he is a "he"?
 

Tazzman

New member
Apr 20, 2013
70
0
0
Men being objectified in games...... Haa that is the biggest pile of bullshit anyone has ever stated, how people could even try and use that as a counter argument is beyond crazy. That being said I'm not a big fan of the other argument either. Sure some games (Well lots actually) make women look like nothing more than a trophy which you win before hiding it away when a newer, shinier, trophy comes along but I also think it's daft that some people are willing to give their money away to fund kickstarter projects started by "Journalists" who want little more than their 5 minutes in the spotlight. One day this will all blow over.

Also This was my first time watching Jimquisition and it won't be the last time I watch it either, good show Jim.
 

Jimothy Sterling

New member
Apr 18, 2011
5,976
0
0
Jennacide said:
Something I think you should have covered Jim was that the claims of men being just as "objectified" also like to ignore the much wider diversity in male heroes. The number of female protagonists that aren't boob and sex caddies can be counted on one hand.
You are correct. I touched on it a little when I mentioned we can have old/ugly characters, but beyond the mere aesthetic, you're correct that there's a greater diversity.

Hell, the whole "anti-hero with lots of flaws" thing is almost exclusive to male characters, and they're the type of protagonist I find most compelling.
 

SonOfVoorhees

New member
Aug 3, 2011
3,509
0
0
I agree with Jim. But, for me, these types of sexualisation of a female character are normally stereotypical and not sexual. More stupid and laughable when you see the boobs and everything. You would have to be 14 to get anything out of it. I think most men see it as stupid and continue playing.....especially with that dead and alive rubbish in your vid. Where as Lara was a strong character. I think some may think this stuff is true when compared to real life. In the UK we have The Sun, in which we have a page 3 girl every day, which is a photo of a topless girl on page 3 in our daily newspaper. I guess boobs arnt a thing here as in america. An there is a difference between fantasy idea of a woman and the real woman. Im sure some guys grow up with a blurred line between those two things.

Worse thing is, i know a guy that hates playing females in games. As in, i played ME trilogy as fem shep, she was a strong positive character. He wont play as female, ever. Im sure there is a "your gay" cos you played as a woman or some other pathetic reason. But until developers start making games with strong female characters then us as gamers cant play as those characters. Tomb Raider has shown that this can be done, she can be vulnerable and strong at the same time because it shows she is human and not a superhuman. You feared for her safety not cos she had breasts, but cos she was human. When you play Gears, you dont fear for his safety because he is a macho cartoon character....not a person.

Sorry, i rambled a lot.
 

mdqp

New member
Oct 21, 2011
190
0
0
DVS BSTrD said:
I recall having a similar discussion about the portrayal of men vs the portrayal women in popular culture overall. For from objectifying men, this other person seemed to think that men were unfairly stereotyped as fat idiots who were completely dependent on women to save them from themselves. Now I want you to look at these pictures and ask yourself
http://www.bundyology.com/bal2.jpghttp://4.bp.blogspot.com/-oJk4uH5eXdY/TVylPQrTwnI/AAAAAAAAAFw/whLXMmyXaOE/s1600/peggy.jpg
Which standard is harder to live up to?
Well, if you want to go down that route, then male characters in videogames are a really hard standard to live up to... :p

I wouldn't say that objectification is the whole problem (although it is part of it), I'd say that there is a problem with female characters design. They are not always meant to be goals/trophies in videogames, but there is a good number of them which is simply poorly portrayed, and there is a lack of variety. Sometimes it's not even pandering, it's just resorting to hollywood's standards idea of "normal" (which means, 9 times out of 10 they are all incredibly beautiful), or abusing some tropes. It's certainly ridiculous, and sometimes stupid, but I feel that using the term "objectification" isn't appropriate for a lot of games, and that things are wrong on a different level.
 

Vivi22

New member
Aug 22, 2010
2,300
0
0
Monxeroth said:
MaxwellMouse said:
Monxeroth, it is not everyone has seen all internet videos before. Even if it is a covered topic, that does not make it any less valid or relevant. I see people saying things like this all the time, as recent as the whole Dragon`s Crown issue.
It does if there is nothing new brought to the table in a long time then yes, that does make it less relevant since its blown out of proportion and not as equally urgent as it is true yknow >_>

Less valid, most likely not
So you think there is no benefit to reframing an argument for, what could potentially be, a new audience? Or a segment of an audience that may still be in denial about an issue that others have already covered?

Because you'd be wrong in that case. Objectification is still an issue, and people, including members on this very site, continue to use this flimsy excuse to defend it indicating the message hasn't quite sunk in yet.

And I have one final problem with the major premise behind your comments on this video: you seem to be of the opinion that there is some actual debate to be had here about whether women and men are or aren't being objectified in the majority of video games. But this belief that if there is one side to an argument, there must be another, equally valid counter argument is a fallacy. It's simple fact that viewed through the lens of Western culture, games are objectifying women and idealizing men. There is nothing more that can be brought to this argument because anyone arguing the opposite is factually wrong, and anyone trying to defend the current state of affairs is at best an idiot and at worst sexist.

Regardless of what your parents and teachers told you as a child, not every issue actually has two valid sides, and not everyone's opinion is worthy of respect and tolerance.
 

Jimothy Sterling

New member
Apr 18, 2011
5,976
0
0
Monxeroth said:
Why? Because i dont happen to agree with this one in particular or the way it presents itself while there are numerous other Jimquisition episodes that i deem fucking gold-worthy (no sarcasm intended, im actually being serious real talk here ok?)

Its just a mere observation and i havent said and or implied that you should just quit and never do this again, its your show, you have the right and the only entitlement to anything here to do as you wish.
If these subjects and these types of videos are what you want to produce in the future then, ok, do that, your videos and your show and my subjective opinion or anyone elses for that matter should NEVER be the reason to compromise the integrity and the presentation of your videos.


Like you said, some people do not like the jimquisition persona and presentation.
...and? who gives a flying fuck if people dont like it or not?
Internet and videos like these are personality driven - Totalbiscuit

So i find it just contradictory for people to demand change in personality and peronas when..thats what some people are here for, thats why im here >_>
For the second time, you're altering what your argument was. It's not that you "disagreed with this one in particular." You said my whole show repeats itself and only says the same things. If that's what you believe I do, I wish to amicably suggest an alternative Monday morning viewing.
 

Jimothy Sterling

New member
Apr 18, 2011
5,976
0
0
Zachary Amaranth said:
CrossLOPER said:
But the women are being idealized as well! Who doesn't want an attractive female who depends on her man?
I'd think lesbians, for one.

Though I'd be really disturbed if it turned out that the male ideal is a woman who is essentially a pet with benefits.
But now you are suggesting that every female be molded to be likable by everyone, which would make her generally unlikable. And since when is being loyal in a relationship make one a "pet"?
Harker067 said:
CrossLOPER said:
But the women are being idealized as well! Who doesn't want an attractive female who depends on her man?
...depends on her man.... I can think of a lot of people that don't want that (me for starters).

Thanks Jim for once again proving that my cringing dread at seeing a topic come up in your show is entirely baseless.
Oh so you would like her to betray you at the least opportune time! But then it would be said that women are being portrayed as evil, treacherous beings with their own dark motivations! Who would want that?
 

Karadalis

New member
Apr 26, 2011
1,065
0
0
Thats all pretty nice but on the topic of "All female chars have to be beautifull" Uhm... yeah? Wich woman would want to play an old hag that looks like the hunchback from notre dam.. or who wants to play the super fat lady from borderlands 2? Among males and females.. i would say no one. Or have you ever seen a female player make a ugly fem shep and say "Yup... thats who i want to play as" Beauty is an idialisation for both gender and does have alot to do with sexualisation. The problem here is that man and woman alike on a broader scheme think that being "sexy" as a woman is a more positive trait (and i dare you to tell me otherwise when we have things like XXX next topmodel and beauty contests for little girls) then lets say being someone with a full fledged education. Furthermore you wont see "ugly" main chars because when women do train their bodys reasonable enough their figure does tend to create an hourglass figure, something attractive to males. Because a fat women would realistically not last for a minute in most action games the same reason fat untrained males wouldnt last long enough. So basically what it comes down to is huge asses and tits that would also be a big hindrance in survival. So all this argument boils down to is: Make less giant ass and titties... make more realistically proportioned women. Oh and while youre at it make them interesting chars with their own agenda and ideals.. thank you.

That "hero" chars are made attractive and pleasing to the eye and given traits that are seen as positive by most humans is a reason. They are the $%&( hero, and they have to look the part.

But as i said, if my main char is a female i would rather have her not have huge bazookas that would slap her in the face each time she jumps up and down... thanks.
 

Jimothy Sterling

New member
Apr 18, 2011
5,976
0
0
illiterate said:
cefm said:
Question!!! Why does Superman shave his legs? HOW does Superman shave his legs? I mean Greenlantern I can get, Human with alien technology. How does Superman manage though? Industrial strength polymer leg waxing?
1) Superman is an Alien
2) Why assume his species has leg hair?
3) Why assume he is a "he"?
He burns the hairs off with his heat vision, duh!
 

Lilani

Sometimes known as CaitieLou
May 27, 2009
6,581
0
0
Jimothy Sterling said:
DVS BSTrD said:
I recall having a similar discussion about the portrayal of men vs the portrayal women in popular culture overall. For from objectifying men, this other person seemed to think that men were unfairly stereotyped as fat idiots who were completely dependent on women to save them from themselves. Now I want you to look at these pictures and ask yourself
http://www.bundyology.com/bal2.jpghttp://4.bp.blogspot.com/-oJk4uH5eXdY/TVylPQrTwnI/AAAAAAAAAFw/whLXMmyXaOE/s1600/peggy.jpg
Which standard is harder to live up to?
THANK YOU. And thank Jim as well for bringing this up. This sort of thing has been burning me up for years. The fact that you can have a shlub for a male lead character in a game, TV show, or movie but every female has to be thin and beautiful at all times. And until very recently it's gone unquestioned. Even shows as recent as King of Queens, Seinfeld, Friends, The New Girl, How I Met your Mother...while the female characters may be played by talented actresses, there is a much broader range of body types when it comes to the male characters than the female ones.

And even when you get a show like Drop Dead Diva or Ugly Betty that has a female lead that doesn't conform to the Hollywood standard of beauty, their "ugliness" needs to be addressed in some way. In Drop Dead Diva, Brooke Elliot plays a larger woman whose body becomes inhabited by the soul of a supermodel. I understand not every episode addresses the whole "lul thin lady has to deal with being fat and ugly lul" thing, but the fact that she's fat is still a part of the basic premise of the show, and it wouldn't be the same without that aspect. And while Ugly Betty is all about deconstructing materialism and beauty standards and such, her "ugliness" is still used as a plot device. When was the last time a man's looks were used as a plot device? The closest example I can think of is Twilight, but since many consider Dead or Alive to not be a fair example in this discussion perhaps it should be left out as well.

I'm not much of a connoisseur of sitcoms, but if I had to choose a favorite I'd have to say Roseanne. Roseanne is one of the only sitcoms (or TV shows in general) that has "unusual"[footnote]Read: imperfect, not stereotypical, and not archetypal[/footnote] characters without the show becoming about those unusual aspects. It has an overweight couple, but the show isn't about a couple that's overweight. It has gay characters, but it isn't about people who are gay. It has episodes on teen pregnancy, masturbation, abortion, birth control, infidelity, drug abuse...but the show as a whole can't be pegged as being about just one of those things.

People praise Will and Grace for bringing homosexuality out in the open, or Secret Life of an American Teenager for "tackling" the issue of teen pregnancy. But to me those shows still miss the point because life isn't about JUST dealing with gays or JUST dealing with teen pregnancy. It's about all of those things rolled up into one big mess, and that's what Roseanne is. One big pile of trials and problems and imperfections being dealt with one day at a time. And until we can truly have gay characters without the fact that they're gay being a big deal, or female characters without the fact that they're female being a big deal, I don't think we can say we're truly "over" homophobia or sexism. Or racism for that matter--Hollywood still likes a pasty white male lead when they aren't looking to make a movie like The Blind Side or Madea Goes to the Grocery Store to Buy Lemonade.

Okay, slightly veered off the rails there, but you get my point. As much as we like to think we're "over" treating sexes and races the same in games and movies and what have you, there is still a lot of appalling stuff going on. And while we may no longer be casting males as females like in the Elizabethan era or putting black and yellow face on white actors, it's still there and still being done for the same reason of, "The masses don't want to see non-white non-males doing awesome things, only one race and one sex can do the job right."
 

franksands

New member
Dec 6, 2010
115
0
0
I've always tried to verbalize the difference between how men and women are treated in videogames and you explained it perfectly, Thank God for you, Jim (even if I'm an atheist). I've been playing a lot of mass effect recently, and I just would like to point out the difference between a male character:

http://imgur.com/EINr5wq,5QvMRIS

and a female character:

http://imgur.com/EINr5wq,5QvMRIS#1
 

Machine Man 1992

New member
Jul 4, 2011
785
0
0
That's what I needed to hear; a clear, concise definition of what the buzzwords of the day mean, an acknowledgement of the other side without the demonization, and conceding that there is a problem, but not the same problem.

Just another reason why Jimquisition > Moviebob
 

FoolKiller

New member
Feb 8, 2008
2,409
0
0
Ashoten said:
I have heard this argument before when people talk about comic book women being objectified. This is the best response I have seen.



Make of it what you will.
My only problem with that picture is that none of the female versions of those three even remotely resemble that image. Batgirl is fully covered, Supergirl has the skirt instead of the tights but still is the same, and the Green Lantern uniforms are well... uniform, except for a bit of cleavage.

Now as for others, I can see where they're coming from but these are bad examples as there are actually female equivalents that aren't so skimpily dressed.
 

Ukomba

New member
Oct 14, 2010
1,528
0
0
Don't both genders want to be desirable? Making male characters appeal to men, means making a man whom women want. Old and grizzled can still be attractive to women. Sean Connery won People's Sexiest Man Alive at 59, and there are regularly men over 40. It seems to come down to more what each gender finds attractive and playing to that. Women buy those skimpy outfits and try to pull off those looks even when they shouldn't.

Games are playing up that old 'men are shallow, women are deep' stereotype of what each find attractive. Not necessarily wrongly. My wife can watch Hunchback of Notre Dame and say Esmeralda should have chosen Quasimodo. And it seems just as many women go for the dark, troubled, and brooding Snape as do Edward or Jacob.

For the record, I'd like to see more variety of women in games for variety's sake, but this might be more of a 'men and women are different' issue. I personally like the female avatars. I preferred Fem Shepard to Male Shepard, and had no problem romancing Garrus with her. My wife preferred a blond male renegade Shepard.

*Side question* is Jack from Mass Effect objectified? She wears the skimpiest outfit and I'm sure fits some peoples definition of desirable.

*Side Side note* Is it weird to find Kasumi and Tali the most attractive females in Mass Effect? They are the most covered.
 

the December King

Member
Legacy
Apr 4, 2020
1,580
1
3
Why do I often come here to hear about games and entertainment, and end up leaving feeling like someone has tried to make me feel bad for being a white male? Did I do something wrong in playing certain games and liking them? If so many women play games, then why aren't there more games for them (that, I assume, would objectify men properly and whatnot)? And if no one is really listening to them and 'what they like', then why are more and more playing the current games? Ar e they actually playing any of these 'apparent-male-power-fantasy/objectifying-women-action/adventure' games, or do most gamer women like other types of games?

I always felt that the protagonist/hero in an adventure story should most likely reflect what is needed or wanted of him or her. Lara Croft has to have 'sexy' (or in practical terms, developed and strong) abs and legs to make jump after jump and climb ridiculous things. She has to be fit, and to many people fit is sexy, on a very basic level.

Kratos is like a brick shithouse that has MMA experience and did steroids between adventures/quests for revenge, but it is expected of him, thanks in no small part to 300/ancient greek sculpture.

...

Not sure where I am going here, but I assume toned or muscular men must be attractive to some women, or something.

I guess my point is, is that I want my escapist protagonist to make sense in the context of the narrative. Everything else in a game is classifiable as objectified, though not necessarily sexually- goals, interests, support, rabble, MOBs, etc.

I hope that made some sense- I thought it would when I started typing...
 

Imp_Emissary

Mages Rule, and Dragons Fly!
Legacy
Aug 9, 2020
2,315
1
3
Country
United States
cookyy2k said:
Well I took one look at the title and my reaction was "oh for f*** sake", watched it and like every "gender politics in games" jimquisition or anything on the internet my reaction was well founded. I am do sick of hearing about this "issue", I get it, I really do. Telling me 20 more times isn't going to make me get it any more and neither is it going to change the minds of those who refuse to get it. All it does is make me apathetic, once upon a time I was active over this issue, now I'm so sick of hearing about it from everywhere I avoid getting involved.

There will always be both extremes to this, there will always be those who rail against any attempt for equality and there will always be those waiting to blow any little perceived inequality up to ridiculous proportions. Frankly I'm sick of both sides, I'm sick of the gamer kiddies making all male gamers look bad and I'm sick of every little thing being some giant drama. If everyone stopped being so reactionary to everything and chose when to speak up instead of it being constant it will be noticed a lot better than a constant white noise of nonissues drowning out the few actual issues.
Well, the "goal" (for those who actually want to see something ever get done) is not to get rid of these kinds of characters forever and all time. It's just to have a little more variety. Spice of life and all that. And in that respect there has been progress. We aren't really close yet to the spectrum of characters being more even on all sides, but we are getting there. Little by little. And once it is so, you will likely here very little from the "extremes".

As for the "white noise" issue. Well, if we could make that quiet we could probably just take care of all the problems anyway. That said, even in a storm there are places where it's still quiet. And ya can always just take a break from it. Everyone needs a little rest once in a while.
 

Orbot_Vectorman

Cleaning trash since 1990
May 11, 2009
344
0
0
JenSeven said:
Dear Jim, your argument is invalid, this is due to the Postal Dude. He is a male character that is in no way idolised nor should he be. He is at best a terrible human being.
Hey, I take offence to that. J/k. But yea, he isn't apart of the big "AAA" releases, so unfortunately our favorite psychopathic red head can't be used for this argument.
 

Mosley_Harmless

New member
May 13, 2013
3
0
0
As far as I'm concerned, videogames exist to provide a virtual fantasy world. Don't get upset because you don't belong in the target audience of the person providing the fantasy. As for sexual objectification, Roger Ebert sums it up pretty well in his "Hugh Hefner has been good for us" article:

"Nobody taught me to regard women as sex objects. I always did. Most men do. And truth to tell, most women regard men as sex objects. We regard many other aspects of another person, but sex is the elephant in the room. Evolution has hard-wired us that way. When we meet a new person, in some small recess of our minds we evaluate that person as a sex partner. We don't act on it, we don't dwell on it, but we do it. You know we do. And this process continues bravely until we are old and feeble."

Now please, stop being so goddamn sensitive.
 

DGMockingJay

New member
Feb 6, 2013
5
0
0
DVS BSTrD said:
I recall having a similar discussion about the portrayal of men vs the portrayal women in popular culture overall. For from objectifying men, this other person seemed to think that men were unfairly stereotyped as fat idiots who were completely dependent on women to save them from themselves. Now I want you to look at these pictures and ask yourself
http://www.bundyology.com/bal2.jpghttp://4.bp.blogspot.com/-oJk4uH5eXdY/TVylPQrTwnI/AAAAAAAAAFw/whLXMmyXaOE/s1600/peggy.jpg
Which standard is harder to live up to?
People say that the females are stereo-typically shown useless and male fantasy.

Men on the other hand are brave, big, muscular and full of agency, able to make their decision.

Which standard is harder to live up to?
 

Kopikatsu

New member
May 27, 2010
4,924
0
0
Jim brought up a point that I'd never thought of before, being that male protagonists can be 'ugly' (I don't consider his examples to be ugly, though...Old Snake was pretty great) while female protagonists have to be attractive.

But to be perfectly honest, I wouldn't play a game if the main character was Rachel from Binary Domain. It may sound shallow, but it's the truth. I'm okay with playing a female protagonist, but she'd have to be attractive in some measure for me to consider it.
 

Jimothy Sterling

New member
Apr 18, 2011
5,976
0
0
Orbot_Vectorman said:
JenSeven said:
Dear Jim, your argument is invalid, this is due to the Postal Dude. He is a male character that is in no way idolised nor should he be. He is at best a terrible human being.
Hey, I take offence to that. J/k. But yea, he isn't apart of the big "AAA" releases, so unfortunately our favorite psychopathic red head can't be used for this argument.
Even if Postal was AAA, the argument is a very flawed one. In general, male heroes are idealized. I do not believe, however, that ALL male characters are idealized. We're only dealing with the general and common examples here. Of course anti-heroes, flawed heroes, and downright villain protagonists exist. I always Kane & Lynch's best feature was how it starred two characters who were both physically *and* psychologically ugly people.

But again, male characters are allowed to be flawed, ugly, and even broken. Female protagonists, not so much.
 

the December King

Member
Legacy
Apr 4, 2020
1,580
1
3
Lilani said:
I'm not much of a connoisseur of sitcoms, but if I had to choose a favorite I'd have to say Roseanne.
LOVED Roseanne! Good call.

Although personally, when Roseanne stopped smiling or laughing (around season 7), that as the beginning of the end for me. It got too whacky and she became insufferable.
 

wizzy555

New member
Oct 14, 2010
637
0
0
On the "all women have to be beautiful" issue. This is still present across most of society. Asking the game industry to be ahead of the curve on that particular issue is asking a lot.

On the issue of objectification and idolization. I think it's important to recognise the subjectivity here. The game developers may design the characters intending one thing, but not is not how it is necessary received. - I actually think the original Lara Croft was a pretty good role model.

A lot of the "objectified" women are strong and independant and not interested in pleasing men - at least on paper. Which is what the last generation of feminist critique was primarily concerned with.
 

Gorrath

New member
Feb 22, 2013
1,648
0
0
I'm more curious about things that revolve around this debate. Female characters in media as sexual objects with little or no agency are referred to as a problem, either because they exist at all, or because they are too pervasive and... what? Is it because it is lazy writing? Is it because it sets up standards of beauty that are unreal? Is it because it sets up standards of behavior for women that are appaling? I'm interested in knowing why people think this objectification is bad, otherwise how can one set up counter arguments without resorting to strawmanning?

If we say that the objectification is bad because it is lazy writing, so too can we argue that making idealized male figures is equally so. Even with agency intact, a male hero figure who simply exists as an idealized version of real people is, frankly, boring as crap.

If we say objectification sets up unrealistic and unattainable standards of beauty, so too does idealization often do the same. You can point to 'ugly' male characters and say they aren't setting up any standards of beauty, but they do set up unrealistic expectations of masculine appearance. Even the ones that do have scarred faces and greying beards almost always have muscular forms with rediculous porportions. Almost as often as the idealized protagonist saves the objectified woman, he also saves a horde of skinny, dare I say 'nerdy' looking male characters who are equally defenseless, suggesting that having 'brains' is less preferable to having brawn.

If we say objectification is bad because it sets up standards of behavior that are appaling, the same can be said for idealized male characters. The tropes associated with said idealization usually involve little or no sympathy or empathy and that revolve around suggesting men are or should be brutish oafs. Even clever male characters with wit in their dialogue act without much more thought than "point gun, kill bad guy," much of the time.

That's just a few examples, but the point I"m striving at here, is that while idealization does not equal objectification, can it not cause many or all of the exact same problems? If so, why would we dismiss it as being a valid comparison to objectification? I'm not even saying it is. As I started out in my first paragrah, we'd need to lay out all of the reasons objectificaion IS bad and find out if idealization can cause those exact same problems.
 

DGMockingJay

New member
Feb 6, 2013
5
0
0
Mosley_Harmless said:
As far as I'm concerned, videogames exist to provide a virtual fantasy world. Don't get upset because you don't belong in the target audience of the person providing the fantasy. As for sexual objectification, Roger Ebert sums it up pretty well in his "Hugh Hefner has been good for us" article:

"Nobody taught me to regard women as sex objects. I always did. Most men do. And truth to tell, most women regard men as sex objects. We regard many other aspects of another person, but sex is the elephant in the room. Evolution has hard-wired us that way. When we meet a new person, in some small recess of our minds we evaluate that person as a sex partner. We don't act on it, we don't dwell on it, but we do it. You know we do. And this process continues bravely until we are old and feeble."

Now please, stop being so goddamn sensitive.
THIS...

Please, stop being so critical of a medium because it is not serving to the demographic of your choice. Do you see men whining about the romantic novels only catering to female readers??

Ever wondered why the talk about sexism is only happening now, and not 10-15 years go?? Thats because women are only entering the industry now. Gaming was beneath them, or unavailable to them or, or they were not allowed to play games by patriarchal society, and only now they are being accepted as a hobby by females. They are new. And as much as you claim they are the 47% of the demographic, they are NOT.

Well, they are unless you start counting the occasional angry bird gamers or browser gamers. Come to think of it, my mom is a gamer too[since she plays spider solitaire]. I wonder if she'd want to play Assassins Creed 4 when it comes out.
 

Dire Sloth

Filthy Casual
Jun 23, 2012
150
0
0
It's really disappointing to see a handful of people posting that this is some huge waste of time.
I usually watch Jimquisition videos regardless, but when this is the topic, I stop what I'm doing and I watch it.
Maybe it's not such a huge deal to some of you, but for me, a female - the objectified - this is HUGE.

I hope, if anything, there are many more videos like this one. You can't change everyone's minds, but at least you can give them a little bit of perspective.
 

Goliath100

New member
Sep 29, 2009
437
0
0
Jimothy Sterling said:
Xman490 said:
Jim has used the DoA: Beach Volleyball trailer as an example of female objectification way too much. Granted, it's a pure example, but it's in almost every video Jim has done regarding the topic of women.
Basically because it's a killer example.

I can happily use some different footage. That one just works so damn well.
No it's not a "killer example" of objectification of females, because none of does characters are female. After all, gender is defined by what an individual identified as and not physical characteristics. And a playble character is incomplete without player input, the player is infact a part of the character, making the player's identification the character's too. In other words: Objectively a playable character have to be seen as genderless.
 

lord.jeff

New member
Oct 27, 2010
1,468
0
0
The other issue with this argument is that it's essentially saying because objectification effects everyone not just women we should stop arguing it. How does saying something is a bigger problem then first stated a reason to end the discussion?

Also for everyone how is tired of hearing this topic, why did you click and watch a video that was obviously about sexism? Jim didn't waste your time you wasted you own time by choosing to watch a video about a topic you're supposedly not interested in.
 

JediMB

New member
Oct 25, 2008
3,094
0
0
FoolKiller said:
Ashoten said:
I have heard this argument before when people talk about comic book women being objectified. This is the best response I have seen.



Make of it what you will.
My only problem with that picture is that none of the female versions of those three even remotely resemble that image. Batgirl is fully covered, Supergirl has the skirt instead of the tights but still is the same, and the Green Lantern uniforms are well... uniform, except for a bit of cleavage.

Now as for others, I can see where they're coming from but these are bad examples as there are actually female equivalents that aren't so skimpily dressed.
Well, those guys are all core heroes in the JLA, right?

Who else is? Wonder Woman, right? Look at Wonder Woman, and then back at that picture, I guess? (And keep WW's lasso in mind.)
 
Apr 24, 2008
3,912
0
0
Jimothy Sterling said:
Sir Christopher McFarlane said:
Yeah, Jim, stop talking about this immediately!
What I like is that you posted what was *really* wanting to be said.

"This is getting old" is always a reliable way to mask, "I dislike this topic."
Just yesterday I commented that gender threads get locked down unnecessarily, and that the contributors repeatedly throw fuel on the fire of the debate that we're apparently not allowed to have here.

I go to work for a few hours, come back... the thread I posted that in is locked. I go to sleep, wake up, and a contributor is focusing on gender issues again. I'm not claiming to be a prophetic genius, the pattern is just easy to spot.

This is the only reason I'm getting sick of this. Can we not just let people talk without locking every single thread? If people are in violation of the code-of-conduct, surely dealing with those people is better than locking the threads. We're only throwing around ideas and opinions, not daggers, we don't need to be saved.

We can leave a thread we don't like at any time, it's very easy. What we can't do is talk when someone is forever hitting the disable button.

I agree with the distinction, Jim. I think it's cool that you follow up in the forums too, even if it is mostly just to be facetious. I do wonder about your "nearly 50% female" audience assertion though. The numbers seem to support it in one sense, but not in others.

http://www.esrb.org/about/video-game-industry-statistics.jsp

These seem to lean towards female gamers not being anything near 50% of ps3/360 users. I would be interested in seeing a more robust set of numbers.

Love Panda.
xxoxx
 

Jimothy Sterling

New member
Apr 18, 2011
5,976
0
0
DGMockingJay said:
DVS BSTrD said:
I recall having a similar discussion about the portrayal of men vs the portrayal women in popular culture overall. For from objectifying men, this other person seemed to think that men were unfairly stereotyped as fat idiots who were completely dependent on women to save them from themselves. Now I want you to look at these pictures and ask yourself
http://www.bundyology.com/bal2.jpghttp://4.bp.blogspot.com/-oJk4uH5eXdY/TVylPQrTwnI/AAAAAAAAAFw/whLXMmyXaOE/s1600/peggy.jpg
Which standard is harder to live up to?
People say that the females are stereo-typically shown useless and male fantasy.

Men on the other hand are brave, big, muscular and full of agency, able to make their decision.

Which standard is harder to live up to?
Which one do you think is more rewarding?
mdqp said:
Well, if you want to go down that route, then male characters in videogames are a really hard standard to live up to... :p
That's why they have a whole game world made for them to do just that. The females on the other hand... you don't get 8 hour games about putting on make-up, doing cardio at the gym, sticking to a low fat diet and shopping for impractical fanservice clothing. =/

Well, not any good games anyway.
 

Something Amyss

Aswyng and Amyss
Dec 3, 2008
24,760
0
0
CrossLOPER said:
But now you are suggesting that every female be molded to be likable by everyone, which would make her generally unlikable.
When did I suggest that? Because I'll gladly chew myself out for saying something that wrong.

...Or I would, if it was true.

And since when is being loyal in a relationship make one a "pet"?
"Loyalty" wasn't even in the phrase I quoted. "Depends" was.

I know you're going for "absurd," but at least don't misrepresent me in the process. Someone who doesn't "get it" might get the wrong idea and assume I said something like that.
 

Orbot_Vectorman

Cleaning trash since 1990
May 11, 2009
344
0
0
Jimothy Sterling said:
Orbot_Vectorman said:
JenSeven said:
Dear Jim, your argument is invalid, this is due to the Postal Dude. He is a male character that is in no way idolised nor should he be. He is at best a terrible human being.
Hey, I take offence to that. J/k. But yea, he isn't apart of the big "AAA" releases, so unfortunately our favorite psychopathic red head can't be used for this argument.
Even if Postal was AAA, the argument is a very flawed one. In general, male heroes are idealized. I do not believe, however, that ALL male characters are idealized. We're only dealing with the general and common examples here. Of course anti-heroes, flawed heroes, and downright villain protagonists exist. I always Kane & Lynch's best feature was how it starred two characters who were both physically *and* psychologically ugly people.

But again, male characters are allowed to be flawed, ugly, and even broken. Female protagonists, not so much.
True, very true. But, (And I'm sorry for potentially playing devils advocate)the flip side to this argument is, IF they made a flawed (physically or mentally) there could be a potential uproar over it.
 

Ashoten

New member
Aug 29, 2010
251
0
0
FoolKiller said:
Ashoten said:
I have heard this argument before when people talk about comic book women being objectified. This is the best response I have seen.



Make of it what you will.
My only problem with that picture is that none of the female versions of those three even remotely resemble that image. Batgirl is fully covered, Supergirl has the skirt instead of the tights but still is the same, and the Green Lantern uniforms are well... uniform, except for a bit of cleavage.

Now as for others, I can see where they're coming from but these are bad examples as there are actually female equivalents that aren't so skimpily dressed.
What this picture illustrates is the way in which a female character is drawn a large percentage of the time. Notice how the butt always has to be jutting out in one direction and the chest in the other. It is an obvious outfit design that apes WOnder Womens wardrobe. Wonder Women who is one of the most progressive female characters in comics still need to stick her ass out to sell issues(according to the people who make comics apparently).





Not every female character is in skimpy cloths as you said but that does not mean that they are not being objectified.



See how this costume covers her face and arms but not her torso. Yes I did just look for pictures that support my opinion and there are plenty of examples of female super heros looking heroic and sexy but not objectified but try to find many examples of men in the same suggestive poses that are not a spoof.
 

fightclubdoll

New member
Mar 9, 2012
1
0
0
RE: Why does Superman have such smooth legs as compared to Green Lantern and Batman?

1337mokro said:
Ashoten said:
I have heard this argument before when people talk about comic book women being objectified. This is the best response I have seen.



Make of it what you will.
Question!!! Why does Superman shave his legs? HOW does Superman shave his legs? I mean Greenlantern I can get, Human with alien technology. How does Superman manage though? Industrial strength polymer leg waxing?
You said it yourself...alien. Superman, too, comes from a world far, far away... where hair is more evolved.
 

Karadalis

New member
Apr 26, 2011
1,065
0
0
Gorrath said:
I'm more curious about things that revolve around this debate. Female characters in media as sexual objects with little or no agency are referred to as a problem, either because they exist at all, or because they are too pervasive and... what? Is it because it is lazy writing? Is it because it sets up standards of beauty that are unreal? Is it because it sets up standards of behavior for women that are appaling? I'm interested in knowing why people think this objectification is bad, otherwise how can one set up counter arguments without resorting to strawmanning?

If we say that the objectification is bad because it is lazy writing, so too can we argue that making idealized male figures is equally so. Even with agency intact, a male hero figure who simply exists as an idealized version of real people is, frankly, boring as crap.

If we say objectification sets up unrealistic and unattainable standards of beauty, so too does idealization often do the same. You can point to 'ugly' male characters and say they aren't setting up any standards of beauty, but they do set up unrealistic expectations of masculine appearance. Even the ones that do have scarred faces and greying beards almost always have muscular forms with rediculous porportions. Almost as often as the idealized protagonist saves the objectified woman, he also saves a horde of skinny, dare I say 'nerdy' looking male characters who are equally defenseless, suggesting that having 'brains' is less preferable to having brawn.

If we say objectification is bad because it sets up standards of behavior that are appaling, the same can be said for idealized male characters. The tropes associated with said idealization usually involve little or no sympathy or empathy and that revolve around suggesting men are or should be brutish oafs. Even clever male characters with wit in their dialogue act without much more thought than "point gun, kill bad guy," much of the time.

That's just a few examples, but the point I"m striving at here, is that while idealization does not equal objectification, can it not cause many or all of the exact same problems? If so, why would we dismiss it as being a valid comparison to objectification? I'm not even saying it is, as I started out in my first paragrah, we'd need to lay our all of the reasons objectificaion IS bad and find out if idealization can cause those exact same problems.

I think the difference here is that an idealized character is still a character.. while an objectivied char... is wank material?

Solid snake for example had big char flaws.. objectified he would not have them.. he would all be "positive" traits.. and therefore very boring.

Or take away the personality of morrigan in Dragon age and she would be nothing more then a pole with tits. But add her personality and suddenly you have a bad ass female char with a somewhat grating personallity... you know.. like most badasses have?

There is a fine line between idealisation and sexualisation... it is crossed when the char is nothing but sexapeal and little else.

As for your other question in how this is bad: Well i guess Miss titsnass goes against the big moralic picture we all should adhere to but secretly enjoying to break all the time if we look at human culture as a whole and especialy the media industry.

Aslong as people buy the product.. the product maker will not make it more "unatractive" for his customers just to stand on the moral high ground.
 

Wilco86

New member
Oct 5, 2011
99
0
0
I do not understand the idea that ideal men are what players want; for example the flawed hero of Planescape: Torment is more sympathetic character than most can-do heroes that own everyone else in combat, always does the right choices where others fail etc. (I actually hate how Dead Space 3 used the character of Norton; as the hero Isaac is always right, and Norton who opposes him is of course an inferior human being and overall a bad, bad person. It feels like those kind of protagonists exist only to boost players' self-esteem.)

Of the objectification of females, for example Dragon Age: Origins has some of the most beautiful full plate armors for female characters, like the one Teyrn Loghain's soldiers are wearing. Not a single "chainmail bikini" among their ranks, and I really liked Ser Cauthrien as a character, also.
 

Lilani

Sometimes known as CaitieLou
May 27, 2009
6,581
0
0
DGMockingJay said:
People say that the females are stereo-typically shown useless and male fantasy.

Men on the other hand are brave, big, muscular and full of agency, able to make their decision.

Which standard is harder to live up to?
But here's the thing: Men aren't being asked to be like the big-brave muscular guys in games. They're simply being asked to identify with them and enjoy the power fantasy. Those muscular characters are the way they are to stroke the player's ego and make them feel more powerful.

What are women being asked to do, then? Identify with that same power fantasy? Sure, why not? I'm never put off by the fact that all the player-characters in TF2 are male, and in Kingdom Hearts I have no problem enjoying the battle system as a spiky-haired do-gooding boy. But things do get rather awkward when the titties come out and I'm being asked to enjoy that as well. And it would be nice just to have a female lead thrown in there every now and then, just to spice things up. I'd like some female power fantasy, as well. I've been envisioning myself in the place of male protagonists for as long as I can remember. Surely it shouldn't be that earth-shatteringly difficult for guys, either? Or hell, just sit back and soak in the strangeness and role-play for a while.

Come on into the gender-displacement pool, the water's fine!
 

alj

Master of Unlocking
Nov 20, 2009
335
0
0
Do people really have a problem playing as a female character that is a bit concerning to say the least. And this brings me to something I have been thinking about recently.

You see people argue that "its just a game its not me doing that" and at the same time the same people wont play as a girl as they argue that the character is a projection of themselves. Well you cannot have it both ways. Ether its "just a game " and therefore who you play as should not be a problem for you or the character is a projection of yourself and its you who is using white phosphorus or butchering innocent people in an airport.

And why should every single character you play reflect your sex race and orientation? It would make for a very bland and boring world if all entertainment and art was like that.

I do not think the majority of people think this way, some will do(usually the young male adolescent) however the problem is the publishers thank think that they need to aim everything at this demographic, (publishers you need to get better market research departments seriously).


An example of how stupid this can get ...

Does anyone know of a game where you play as a 27 year old man who is

- slightly overweight
- has a long scruffy ponytail
- who has a beard because they are too lazy to shave


Anyone

Anyone ?

What a shame guess i cannot play any more games then.


see how stupid this can get
 

Clovus

New member
Mar 3, 2011
275
0
0
1337mokro said:
Ashoten said:
I have heard this argument before when people talk about comic book women being objectified. This is the best response I have seen.



Make of it what you will.
Question!!! Why does Superman shave his legs? HOW does Superman shave his legs? I mean Greenlantern I can get, Human with alien technology. How does Superman manage though? Industrial strength polymer leg waxing?
Like, maybe he just uses his breath to freeze his own leg and then just brushes them off. Or maybe he just, like, burns them off with this eyes.
 

Gorrath

New member
Feb 22, 2013
1,648
0
0
Ashoten said:
See how this costume covers her face and arms but not her torso. Yes I did just look for pictures that support my opinion and there are plenty of examples of female super heros looking heroic and sexy but not objectified but try to find many examples of men in the same suggestive poses that are not a spoof.
I've always found this to be a bit of a logical fallacy simply because what women would find sexually attractive doesn't generally revolve around what men do. Saying that we can't find men on the front of comics jutting their hip to the side is proof that they aren't done up to be sexy isn't a good argument.

I think we'd need a deeper understanding of what many or most women DO find sexually appealing to know if the poses used for male heroes are appealing to them, and then we'd have a basis for comparison.
 

Jimothy Sterling

New member
Apr 18, 2011
5,976
0
0
Jimothy Sterling said:
Sir Christopher McFarlane said:
Yeah, Jim, stop talking about this immediately!
What I like is that you posted what was *really* wanting to be said.

"This is getting old" is always a reliable way to mask, "I dislike this topic."
You know Jim, Anyone who is familiar with my name could probably tell you how very tired I am of this topic cropping up over, and over, and over....

But your video manages to address the issue in an interesting way, without resorting to trying to be a white knight like SOME contributors on the escapist. Your video was logical, straight forward and had very clear reasonable points. So thank you for actually moving the discussion forward instead of resorting to sensationalism like some articles and comics have.

keep up the great work man, and dont be discouraged by the trolls.
 

1337mokro

New member
Dec 24, 2008
1,503
0
0
Clovus said:
1337mokro said:
Ashoten said:
I have heard this argument before when people talk about comic book women being objectified. This is the best response I have seen.



Make of it what you will.
Question!!! Why does Superman shave his legs? HOW does Superman shave his legs? I mean Greenlantern I can get, Human with alien technology. How does Superman manage though? Industrial strength polymer leg waxing?
Like, maybe he just uses his breath to freeze his own leg and then just brushes them off. Or maybe he just, like, burns them off with this eyes.
Can Superman's powers harm himself? His hair is basically indestructible if not he'd have his glorious mullet burned of every single time a heat based enemy was encountered. So why should there be an exception for his own heat vision which still works on the same principles and does not seem to be all that strong, compared to other heat powers in the same universe.

Kryptonite razorblades?
 

DGMockingJay

New member
Feb 6, 2013
5
0
0
DVS BSTrD said:
DGMockingJay said:
DVS BSTrD said:
I recall having a similar discussion about the portrayal of men vs the portrayal women in popular culture overall. For from objectifying men, this other person seemed to think that men were unfairly stereotyped as fat idiots who were completely dependent on women to save them from themselves. Now I want you to look at these pictures and ask yourself
http://www.bundyology.com/bal2.jpghttp://4.bp.blogspot.com/-oJk4uH5eXdY/TVylPQrTwnI/AAAAAAAAAFw/whLXMmyXaOE/s1600/peggy.jpg
Which standard is harder to live up to?
People say that the females are stereo-typically shown useless and male fantasy.

Men on the other hand are brave, big, muscular and full of agency, able to make their decision.

Which standard is harder to live up to?
Which one do you think is more rewarding?
I was just humoring you. Your argument that the depiction of either gender in media creates an unrealistic standard for women and men, I find stupid. You dont have to live upto anything. Video games are not your Asian dads [not being racist, I am Asian, and its a meme] who want you to be the best in everything. Its fucking video games.They want you to show something that is fantasy. Its the best version of you, or the stereotypically/universally accepted best version of anybody.

Yeah, Men want to be with women with a body like Kate Upton. Women want Ryan Gosling lookalike. But thats society's problem. Its always been like that.
 

Imp_Emissary

Mages Rule, and Dragons Fly!
Legacy
Aug 9, 2020
2,315
1
3
Country
United States
the December King said:
...

Not sure where I am going here, but I assume toned or muscular men must be attractive to some women, or something.

I guess my point is, is that I want my escapist protagonist to make sense in the context of the narrative. Everything else in a game is classifiable as objectified, though not necessarily sexually- goals, interests, support, rabble, MOBs, etc.

I hope that made some sense- I thought it would when I started typing...
Wanting the game to make sense is fine. Though that is one of the common complaints people make when talking about over sexualized characters. The whole "chainmail bikini" thing.

That and as Jim said, while most of the time the male protagonist are usually "idolized" as something the player wants to be, strong in some way, powerful, good, or just very good at being bad. They can not be what most would call "sexy". Kratos may have a better body than it may be possible for a real person to have, but he is also kind of ugly in the face. At least compared to say,

I mean come on. His shirt gets that dirty, but his face and hair are just fine? Say what you will about Lara still being pretty hot, but at least they let her get reasonably dirty.

Don't be hard on yourself, but keep in mind that you aren't the only one who feels bad.

Also, as you said about women playing games with characters they may not like? Well, they may not have much choice if they like the game but hate how the female characters look/act. You can like a game but hate the characters. And as for the "why aren't there more games with female characters made for females yet?" Well, as Jim said, some people don't even want women to come in and test the game yet, so asking them to focus on what women want when they won't even bring in some to see the game may be asking a bit much yet.
 

Jimothy Sterling

New member
Apr 18, 2011
5,976
0
0
Clovus said:
1337mokro said:
Ashoten said:
I have heard this argument before when people talk about comic book women being objectified. This is the best response I have seen.

Make of it what you will.
Question!!! Why does Superman shave his legs? HOW does Superman shave his legs? I mean Greenlantern I can get, Human with alien technology. How does Superman manage though? Industrial strength polymer leg waxing?
Like, maybe he just uses his breath to freeze his own leg and then just brushes them off. Or maybe he just, like, burns them off with this eyes.
Superman, the original inventor of laser hair removal! You should see his brazilian!

Though I did just get an entertaining mental image of evil superman from that new beat em up game 'helping' a gentleman with laser eye surgery.
 

FFP2

New member
Dec 24, 2012
741
0
0
Yay... this again. Guessing the last video didn't get a lot of views.

Constantly whining about this isn't going to change anything. Unless devs/publishers decide to change. Sales mean more than good characters to them and this whole "sexist" shit is the easiest way to do this. Macho men and women with big boobs are here to stay. They're trying to appeal to the biggest audience - men.

The horror!
 

Clovus

New member
Mar 3, 2011
275
0
0
Dire Sloth said:
This is my idea of an idealized female protagonist:
Ugh, horrible. She doesn't even have boob shaped armor.

I noticed the other day that Dark Souls doesn't include female armor either. I'm guessing they weren't making a political statement though. Either it was cheaper or they just decided that it was idiotic for Havel's armor to change just because a femal was wearing it. Even the armor sets that are female don't look ridiculous, like the Painting Guardian's armor.

There was a recent article (can't link, at work) on Penny Arcade about how boob armor would probably get the person wearing it killed.
 

Bke

New member
May 13, 2013
59
0
0
Monxeroth said:
Well of course only if we objectively assume that objectifying can objectively only exist for one objective purpose to begin with, ie sex appeal in this case.
As in, objectifying is one thing and one definition only and thus can only be applied to females in that sense

But what if we then assume that objectification isnt just about that?
Lovely...

To cut to what I was saying, sans preamble this time:

How do we as the consumers help fix this issue? This is not like licensing or DRM. When a game sells well publishers think this was due to marketing. People bought bioshock infinite regardless of the cover, however I guarantee you the publishers believed that the gun-bro cover actually helped sell the game. So how do we show our desire not to support this practice without missing out on the games we want?
 

JarinArenos

New member
Jan 31, 2012
556
0
0
alj said:
Do people really have a problem playing as a female character that is a bit concerning to say the least. And this brings me to something I have been thinking about recently.

You see people argue that "its just a game its not me doing that" and at the same time the same people wont play as a girl as they argue that the character is a projection of themselves. Well you cannot have it both ways. Ether its "just a game " and therefore who you play as should not be a problem for you or the character is a projection of yourself and its you who is using white phosphorus or butchering innocent people in an airport.

And why should every single character you play reflect your sex race and orientation? It would make for a very bland and boring world if all entertainment and art was like that.

I do not think the majority of people think this way, some will do(usually the young male adolescent) however the problem is the publishers thank think that they need to aim everything at this demographic, (publishers you need to get better market research departments seriously).


An example of how stupid this can get ...

Does anyone know of a game where you play as a 27 year old man who is

- slightly overweight
- has a long scruffy ponytail
- who has a beard because they are too lazy to shave


Anyone

Anyone ?

What a shame guess i cannot play any more games then.


see how stupid this can get
I'm not entirely sure what side you're arguing for here, honestly. People should branch out more (more solid female protagonists is a good thing) or things are fine (girls shouldn't complain about playing guys)?

Edit:
Bke said:
When a game sells well publishers think this was due to marketing. People bought bioshock infinite regardless of the cover, however I guarantee you the publishers believed that the gun-bro cover actually helped sell the game. So how do we show our desire not to support this practice without missing out on the games we want?
Exactly like this video. Not letting the topic die. Making the conversation louder so publishers can't help but hear it. Not shutting up just because some people are "tired" of hearing the issue discussed. We'll stop talking about it when the industry changes its practices.
 

Karadalis

New member
Apr 26, 2011
1,065
0
0
Superman cant burn his own hair with his laserbeams or freeze them off with his breath. His hair can withstand extreme temperatures and extreme cold perfectly fine. After all he got shot by so many lasers in his career and got frozen so often he should be bald like lex luthor by now.

Nah he would need a cryptonite razorblade to do that.
 

Rastrelly

%PCName
Mar 19, 2011
602
0
0
I don't quite get the problem. Yes, there are a lot of female gamers. But what is their demand? What games do they want to play? I have no problems with any girl to play Half-Life or Diablo. But what percentage of female audience wants to play such games? Male and female sectors of game market will be as unequal as cloth or accessory. men tend to dislike wearing skirts or pink. Females (if they are not business women/politicians) would never wear business suits. It's an obvious fact. Nowadays females form giant markets and they in most cases do not correlate to male markets. And gaming is the same thing. The PROBLEM is not objectification or whatever. The problem is actual absence of AAA-class female gaming. That is what to be solved. The industry must start producing those pink shorts/tight jeans/fur coats/jewelry IN ADDITION to modern cowboy hats and boots. That's it.
 

wizzy555

New member
Oct 14, 2010
637
0
0
JarinArenos said:
Exactly like this video. Not letting the topic die. Making the conversation louder so publishers can't help but hear it. Not shutting up just because some people are "tired" of hearing the issue discussed. We'll stop talking about it when the industry changes its practices.
By making sure Remember me sells well. If you want to support equality, buy remember me.

No I don't work for the company.
 

Reeve

New member
Feb 8, 2013
292
0
0
So what's wrong with having an idealised person in something that's just a fantasy again? I missed the part where that was demonstrated to have a causative negative effect. What's that? You can't demonstrate the causation? LOL sounds like the violent videogames = violent people bullshit all over again.
 

Gorrath

New member
Feb 22, 2013
1,648
0
0
[quote="Karadalis" post="6.407898.17030026

I think the difference here is that an idealized character is still a character.. while an objectivied char... is wank material?

Solid snake for example had big char flaws.. objectified he would not have them.. he would all be "positive" traits.. and therefore very boring.

Or take away the personality of morrigan in Dragon age and she would be nothing more then a pole with tits. But add her personality and suddenly you have a bad ass female char with a somewhat grating personallity... you know.. like most badasses have?

There is a fine line between idealisation and sexualisation... it is crossed when the char is nothing but sexapeal and little else.

As for your other question in how this is bad: Well i guess Miss titsnass goes against the big moralic picture we all should adhere to but secretly enjoying to break all the time if we look at human culture as a whole and especialy the media industry.

Aslong as people buy the product.. the product maker will not make it more "unatractive" for his customers just to stand on the moral high ground.[/quote]

Well that's sort of what I was on about. They are not the same, and I understand that, but if they do cause the same problems then both should be considered valid points of criticism. Saying that male characters aren't objectifed, they're just idealized isn't much of an argument if that idealization leads to many or all of teh exact same issues that objectification does.

We shouldn't hold Miss T&A up as an actual ideal to strive for, but we sure as heck shouldn't hold up Kratos as one either. WHile Kratos has agency and characterization, this idealized version of masculinity is every bit a abhorrent as Miss T&A's version of femininity.
 

Azaraxzealot

New member
Dec 1, 2009
2,403
0
0
Jimothy Sterling said:
Your use of forward slashes has totally changed my way of doing things. I'll do a top ten gaming babes next week.
My gf as #1?

Or if it's the digital ones, I vote Garcia Hotspur as #1.

Anyways, I see objectification on both sides. But men don't get it as bad because in games we're portrayed as how we've always wanted to look and act, not how women want us to look and act.
 

Kuth

New member
Jan 14, 2009
62
0
0
Jim,

I agree that using an apples to apples comparison to sexualizing for male and female roles is true. Males have never been as sexualized compared to Females. The problem I am seeing with your viewpoint over men issues is that you seem to assume that male issues is over being overpostive or a dream standard that most men can not achieve. While that argument itself is not invalid, you fail horribly in finding negative roles for men in gaming.

Men are disposable. The disposablity of men are such a normal thing, that we are just numb at seeing it. In the GCN game 'Geist' there is a part of the game where you kill a soldier near a computer. If you actually read the computer, it will be a letter to his wife on how he will be home. If that letter didn't exist, you wouldn't care that you killed that soldier. You wouldn't care that he died, yet now that you gain the knowledge that you just killed a loving husband, how do you feel? Remorse? Sadness? Regret? All irrelevant.

In video games, you are told to kill waves and waves of men with no back-story, no reasons to exist but to die by your hand. Even NPC's that you work with can be just as disposable. Your comrades may die in the game, and unless he is your best friend, you are not given a reason to care. His existence is to be no more than a cold body on the floor and reinforce your need to kill for vengeance.

A man's life is of lesser value than a woman's life. I highly doubt in the current culture you can debate that idea. Sure you can say both men and women are equal in their value of life, but that's not how video games or any media treats it. If you were given an option to kill 10 men or save 1 woman, what would you choose? Is a woman's life more valuable then those ten men?

I will even go back to just using women as sexual objects. In games, women have a place, but their deaths are something to ponder before chopping their head off. In many games, women are not killed off in some shameless or useless reason to reinforce killing, most of the time their death has a value. You can and will find examples to prove the opposite to what I just said, but most games do not use women's death in the same manner as men.

Jim, the points you have are good but they don't even drill far into the iceberg of sexual roles and negative contexts of those roles.
 

Ticklefist

New member
Jul 19, 2010
487
0
0
Surprised this needed to be spelled out for some people but if Mr. Ruffled Feathers trying to sweep it under the rug is any indication, it does.
 

Mahoshonen

New member
Jul 28, 2008
358
0
0
Jim, I have a suggestion: just lock these threads or don't make them. They all invariably descend into furious *****-slapping competitions of who can abuse the shift key the most.
 

Azaraxzealot

New member
Dec 1, 2009
2,403
0
0
Dire Sloth said:
This is my idea of an idealized female protagonist:
YESSSSS! Can't fucking agree more.

Because unlike most other "strong female protagonists", she actually is aware she is still a woman instead of just being a woman acting in the role of a man and shunning all things womanly.
 

Jimothy Sterling

New member
Apr 18, 2011
5,976
0
0
What Jimmy fails to see is that idealization IS a form of objectification.

Yes... The kind of male characters you see in games are IDEAL men BUT SO ARE THE WOMEN!

***NEWSFLASH***

The kind of women exhibited in videogames are IDEAL women!!!
 

Dire Sloth

Filthy Casual
Jun 23, 2012
150
0
0
Clovus said:
Dire Sloth said:
This is my idea of an idealized female protagonist:
Ugh, horrible. She doesn't even have boob shaped armor.

There was a recent article (can't link, at work) on Penny Arcade about how boob armor would probably get the person wearing it killed.
Ha! And no worries. I'll try hunting it down.
 

LordMonty

Badgerlord
Jul 2, 2008
570
0
0
I like boobs your harsh oposistion of boobs makes me sad! I also feel you that you flaunting of your mighty form makes me sad also. You are cruel as both of these things are currently out of my reach.

P.S Also your shows are amusing and I feel you keep it fresh so screw the detractors and keep on saying whatever the smeg you like.
 

Psykoma

New member
Nov 29, 2010
481
0
0
CrossLOPER said:
But the women are being idealized as well! Who doesn't want an attractive female who depends on her man?
That's still objectifying women - it's framing women as some thing for men to want.

If you had said "what woman doesn't want to be..." you'd have the basis for an idealized character.

But then the character design would have to deal with the issue that so very very few women think having massive boobs with a petite frame is more attractive and preferable, and yet even fewer would think highly of being dependant on her man.


the December King said:
I always felt that the protagonist/hero in an adventure story should most likely reflect what is needed or wanted of him or her. Lara Croft has to have 'sexy' (or in practical terms, developed and strong) abs and legs to make jump after jump and climb ridiculous things. She has to be fit, and to many people fit is sexy, on a very basic level.
I'm sorry, but the "the women have to look like for what they do in the game to be realistically feasible" does not work.

I guarantee you, a woman who could 'realistically' do all that Lara Croft does has 0 boob - all muscle (thighs and butt for that matter as well). A real life woman who can do what Lara Croft does has the same body as Kratos. Well, minus the willy.

the December King said:
Not sure where I am going here, but I assume toned or muscular men must be attractive to some women, or something.
Yes, there are some who do find that attractive.
But the point is that they are incidental to it all, they aren't the target.
 

Groenteman

New member
Mar 30, 2011
120
0
0
And another fish in a bucket bites the dust! (boomheadshot-criticalhit-itsover9000!!1!!one1)

Not that the internet is not full of fishes in buckets needing some shooting, but this is not one of your videos where your eloquent wording described a problem in a way/from a angle I couldnt find myself.

There are many people on the internet making a stupid argument, no one man can adress them all!

Id also like to add that I personaly dont see the typical male game muscly peabrain protagonist as something to look up at.


Mosley_Harmless said:
As far as I'm concerned, videogames exist to provide a virtual fantasy world. Don't get upset because you don't belong in the target audience of the person providing the fantasy. As for sexual objectification, Roger Ebert sums it up pretty well in his "Hugh Hefner has been good for us" article:

"Nobody taught me to regard women as sex objects. I always did. Most men do. And truth to tell, most women regard men as sex objects. We regard many other aspects of another person, but sex is the elephant in the room. Evolution has hard-wired us that way. When we meet a new person, in some small recess of our minds we evaluate that person as a sex partner. We don't act on it, we don't dwell on it, but we do it. You know we do. And this process continues bravely until we are old and feeble."

Now please, stop being so goddamn sensitive.
DGMockingJay said:
THIS...

Please, stop being so critical of a medium because it is not serving to the demographic of your choice. Do you see men whining about the romantic novels only catering to female readers??

Ever wondered why the talk about sexism is only happening now, and not 10-15 years go?? Thats because women are only entering the industry now. Gaming was beneath them, or unavailable to them or, or they were not allowed to play games by patriarchal society, and only now they are being accepted as a hobby by females. They are new. And as much as you claim they are the 47% of the demographic, they are NOT.

Well, they are unless you start counting the occasional angry bird gamers or browser gamers. Come to think of it, my mom is a gamer too[since she plays spider solitaire]. I wonder if she'd want to play Assassins Creed 4 when it comes out.
I think the bigger issue here is not the 'regarding as', but 'treating as'. You are expected to be able to keep your junk in your pants and treat people with some basic respect, not blindly hobble after base insticts. Even monkeys can do it.

Same goes for popular media. Sure theres a place for DoA and Gears of War, just like in movies theres a place for porn and cheesy action flicks, books have place for erotic novels and whatnot, etc etc. This does not mean we want a whole bloody medium to be just porn and muscly peabrains (and those who do want that, why the hell are you complaining? there not every going to be a shortage of those)

Also romance novels are a genre, not a medium. Gaming is a medium, shooters are a genre. 'male-centric' is not even an essential part of shooters. Try and think a bit harder about your analogies.
 

blackdwarf

New member
Jun 7, 2010
606
0
0
You are pretty spot-on with this subject. It always annoys me that female character always get stuck with the same stereotype, being the hot model with the slim body, but the male characters have dozens of types to choose from. Fat, ugly, slim, muscular, miss formed and more. Games with rosters of characters like fighting games or League of legends really show the lack of creativity (or too much fan-service), concerning the the female body type. All females have the same "perfect" body.

But besides the visuals we also lack the cool female characters who are cool for their characteristics, not their body.
 
Feb 28, 2008
689
0
0
FFP2 said:
Yay... this again. Guessing the last video didn't get a lot of views.

Constantly whining about this isn't going to change anything. Unless devs/publishers decide to change. Sales mean more than good characters to them and this whole "sexist" shit is the easiest way to do this. Macho men and women with big boobs are here to stay. They're trying to appeal to the biggest audience - men.

The horror!
Well what else are people supposed to do in order to get the change they think is long overdue? Arguing and raising the debate is the only way to influence publisher (or, of course, not buying the games -- but then again, raising the issue is important). And Jim specifically said that the audience of video games is far more diverse than people think, it's not vastly more men than women.
 

Jimothy Sterling

New member
Apr 18, 2011
5,976
0
0
Jim there's one argument I like to bring up when talk up of objectification in games comes up, and I'd like to know what you think.

Why should we care about objectifying fictional characters?

As far as I'm concerned because they don't actually exist, they're beneath objects on the global scale of importance and turning them into objects would be an upgrade if they were actually being turned to objects.

I've heard that it's off putting to women but why is the argument always that 'it puts women off to all video games' rather than 'it puts off women to those specific games'? I mean there has been a rise in women playing so how much have they really put off women to all games?
 

Jimothy Sterling

New member
Apr 18, 2011
5,976
0
0
Psykoma said:
But then the character design would have to deal with the issue that so very very few women think having massive boobs with a petite frame is more attractive and preferable, and yet even fewer would think highly of being dependant on her man.
How well do you think a game would sell if all the women were obese and had the personalities of reclusive anti-Semites?

Zachary Amaranth said:
When did I suggest that? Because I'll gladly chew myself out for saying something that wrong.

...Or I would, if it was true.
You brought up a specific subgroup of people.
 

verdant monkai

New member
Oct 30, 2011
1,519
0
0
I know what Jim means but I disagree to a certain extent. Whilst women are often made to be sex objects, men are made into objects of violence. Reduced to nothing but a grunting monster that just wants violence and slaughter. Thats not one of my ideals and I don't wan't to be that.

Theres a guy in skyrim called Hrongar who sums this up "I'm not a man I'm a weapon in human form".




I will obviously admit that women have it a lot worse. It's just that objectification of men does exist and it is a valid complaint. It's just that I don't think devs should be told to curb their games in anyway, to avoid offending people or making it safer for certain groups. Not because I don't want women enjoying games, just because I don't like it when art is stifled and censored.
 

Imp_Emissary

Mages Rule, and Dragons Fly!
Legacy
Aug 9, 2020
2,315
1
3
Country
United States
Orbot_Vectorman said:
Jimothy Sterling said:
Orbot_Vectorman said:
JenSeven said:
Dear Jim, your argument is invalid, this is due to the Postal Dude. He is a male character that is in no way idolised nor should he be. He is at best a terrible human being.
Hey, I take offence to that. J/k. But yea, he isn't apart of the big "AAA" releases, so unfortunately our favorite psychopathic red head can't be used for this argument.
Even if Postal was AAA, the argument is a very flawed one. In general, male heroes are idealized. I do not believe, however, that ALL male characters are idealized. We're only dealing with the general and common examples here. Of course anti-heroes, flawed heroes, and downright villain protagonists exist. I always Kane & Lynch's best feature was how it starred two characters who were both physically *and* psychologically ugly people.

But again, male characters are allowed to be flawed, ugly, and even broken. Female protagonists, not so much.
True, very true. But, (And I'm sorry for potentially playing devils advocate)the flip side to this argument is, IF they made a flawed (physically or mentally) there could be a potential uproar over it.
Maybe, but I must ask, so? There will always be some uproar about any game. Hell, remember when Jim made the joke about the people who made an uproar about Sonic's eyes being made green?(hahaha...that was funny)

That, and there have already been female characters in games that have been ugly physically and mentally (sometimes both but most just mentally) before. Granted, most were not the protagonist, but I don't remember much complaining about them. Not to say that there wasn't, but if there was it wasn't very widespread. Plus we could use something not so over done once in a while.
 

Reeve

New member
Feb 8, 2013
292
0
0
Here's another thing: An ideal woman, even from a woman's point of view, would look attractive to most men. Because who doesn't want to look attractive?
 

franksands

New member
Dec 6, 2010
115
0
0
Ukomba said:
Don't both genders want to be desirable? Making male characters appeal to men, means making a man whom women want. Old and grizzled can still be attractive to women. Sean Connery won People's Sexiest Man Alive at 59, and there are regularly men over 40. It seems to come down to more what each gender finds attractive and playing to that. Women buy those skimpy outfits and try to pull off those looks even when they shouldn't.

Games are playing up that old 'men are shallow, women are deep' stereotype of what each find attractive. Not necessarily wrongly. My wife can watch Hunchback of Notre Dame and say Esmeralda should have chosen Quasimodo. And it seems just as many women go for the dark, troubled, and brooding Snape as do Edward or Jacob.

For the record, I'd like to see more variety of women in games for variety's sake, but this might be more of a 'men and women are different' issue. I personally like the female avatars. I preferred Fem Shepard to Male Shepard, and had no problem romancing Garrus with her. My wife preferred a blond male renegade Shepard.

*Side question* is Jack from Mass Effect objectified? She wears the skimpiest outfit and I'm sure fits some peoples definition of desirable.

*Side Side note* Is it weird to find Kasumi and Tali the most attractive females in Mass Effect? They are the most covered.
(M)Ass Effect 2 wins the trophy for most objectified women. Aside from Jack, you have Samara, the justicar with high red heels. But the 1st place goes to Miranda, because the camera always focuses on her ass.
 

Dire Sloth

Filthy Casual
Jun 23, 2012
150
0
0
Azaraxzealot said:
Dire Sloth said:
This is my idea of an idealized female protagonist:
YESSSSS! Can't fucking agree more.

Because unlike most other "strong female protagonists", she actually is aware she is still a woman instead of just being a woman acting in the role of a man and shunning all things womanly.
If you watch GoT (I'm assuming you do):
When Jaimie and Brienne duke it out for the first time! I got so excited when Jaimie fell over trying to tackle her. She is a womanly beast.
 

Psykoma

New member
Nov 29, 2010
481
0
0
CrossLOPER said:
Psykoma said:
But then the character design would have to deal with the issue that so very very few women think having massive boobs with a petite frame is more attractive and preferable, and yet even fewer would think highly of being dependant on her man.
How well do you think a game would sell if all the women were obese and had the personalities of reclusive anti-Semites?
Except that's not the argument you posted. You posted that women are idealized as well, but sorry - they aren't.

And even then, women who women find attractive wouldn't be "obese [with] the personalities of reclusive anti-Semites", they would still be attractive to the vast majority of men.
 

TheThirdChild

New member
Feb 16, 2010
41
0
0
For the 'smug' bit you could have just put up a flashing sign saying "satire". Maybe then people would connect the dots, or learn a new word...
Has anyone ever ask female players what they'd like their female (and male) characters to look and act like?
 

Reeve

New member
Feb 8, 2013
292
0
0
Women in video games are idealised. Unless you think that women don't want to look attractive.
 

Jimothy Sterling

New member
Apr 18, 2011
5,976
0
0
Ashoten said:
I have heard this argument before when people talk about comic book women being objectified. This is the best response I have seen.



Make of it what you will.
What's this supposed to prove? There's no male heroes in burqas, high heels or dresses either. I think you know why.
 

Reeve

New member
Feb 8, 2013
292
0
0
TheThirdChild said:
For the 'smug' bit you could have just put up a flashing sign saying "satire". Maybe then people would connect the dots, or learn a new word...
Has anyone ever ask female players what they'd like their female (and male) characters to look and act like?
Except that it's not "their" characters. It's the writer and artist's characters.

I'm sick of seeing entitled whining from people who get the privilege to play someone else's work.
 

Orekoya

New member
Sep 24, 2008
485
0
0
1337mokro said:
Clovus said:
1337mokro said:
Ashoten said:
I have heard this argument before when people talk about comic book women being objectified. This is the best response I have seen.



Make of it what you will.
Question!!! Why does Superman shave his legs? HOW does Superman shave his legs? I mean Greenlantern I can get, Human with alien technology. How does Superman manage though? Industrial strength polymer leg waxing?
Like, maybe he just uses his breath to freeze his own leg and then just brushes them off. Or maybe he just, like, burns them off with this eyes.
Can Superman's powers harm himself? His hair is basically indestructible if not he'd have his glorious mullet burned of every single time a heat based enemy was encountered. So why should there be an exception for his own heat vision which still works on the same principles and does not seem to be all that strong, compared to other heat powers in the same universe.

Kryptonite razorblades?
There you go.
 

Jimothy Sterling

New member
Apr 18, 2011
5,976
0
0
Psykoma said:
And even then, women who women find attractive wouldn't be "obese [with] the personalities of reclusive anti-Semites".
I think you read two different posts, one of them being mine, and somehow merged them together in your mind because I never said that.

Psykoma said:
Except that's not the argument you posted. You posted that women are idealized as well, but sorry - they aren't.
i·de·al·ize (-d-lz)
v. i·de·al·ized, i·de·al·iz·ing, i·de·al·iz·es
v.tr.
1. To regard as ideal.
2. To make or envision as ideal.
v.intr.
1. To render something as an ideal.
2. To conceive ideals or an ideal.

They are so long as they fit someone's ideal.

Jim's choice of words was poor.
 

Bke

New member
May 13, 2013
59
0
0
JarinArenos said:
Exactly like this video. Not letting the topic die. Making the conversation louder so publishers can't help but hear it. Not shutting up just because some people are "tired" of hearing the issue discussed. We'll stop talking about it when the industry changes its practices.
However I wonder about the effectiveness about talking about it. While Jim is right to think that his predicted console market collapse will bring and end, or at least a change, to DRM and other such practices, I don't think this is such a prominent issue to be considered in the proceeding regrowth after the collapse.

If we look at what happened in the 80's, consumers became disillusioned because of poor quality control, leaving Nintendo strictly controlling its releases even today. If another collapse were to occur, or even something near to it, how could we ensure that sexism is indeed identified as one of the causes from a profit standpoint?

Of course speaking to the publishers and developers is one way, but the feeling I got from replies to the e-mails I sent is that this is still a non-issue in the eyes of publishers, and may have been brought up too late in this "second era" of gaming history to see effective change come soon enough.

I suppose I answer my own question by way of pointing out that we can't directly "vote with our wallets" on this matter, but it's still sad to think the industry may still have to endure another era with cliché stereotyping. But I can see no way to alter this course.
 

Spearmaster

New member
Mar 10, 2010
378
0
0
Internet-"Hey! There is a problem"

Me- "What is it?"

Internet-"Women in games are over sexualized!!!"

Me-"Why is that a problem?"

Internet-"because some people don't like it"

Me-"Well I don't like tomatoes on my tacos"

Internet-"Derp,Derp'Derp"

Me-"Is it hurting people?"

Internet-"Well there is absolutely no evidence but we say it is... so yes it is hurting people."

Me-"Ohh, so what do you plan to do about your problem?

Internet-"Just another wave of over entitled bitching about someone's art form and how things have to change"

Me-"Really? I just don't buy tacos that have tomatoes on them, some people like tomatoes on their tacos so I don't think it has to change"

Internet-"Derp,Derp,Derp"


**Disclaimer**
This was a fictional dramatization of a typical conversation with the internet.

Is there a solution in this mire of sexism in video games that doesn't trample all over an artists creative design? Or is it nothing more than a whine about stuff people don't like. I hear thousands of people AGAINST sexism in video games and AGAINST over sexualized women and now even the idealization of men. Never once have I heard someone FOR a solution to this supposed problem, just whiners and the supposed moderates that say we should have discussions about it which is just a cowards way of supporting the whiners by giving credence to their argument.
 

Xanex

New member
Jun 18, 2012
117
0
0
I have yet to see any correlation between how female characters are portrayed in games and any harm to women in reality besides "it offends me". And I have yet to see anyone forcing anyone else to buy and play games that offend them. Well, besides game reviewers.
 

Psykoma

New member
Nov 29, 2010
481
0
0
CrossLOPER said:
Psykoma said:
And even then, women who women find attractive wouldn't be "obese [with] the personalities of reclusive anti-Semites".
I think you read two different posts, one of them being mine, and somehow merged them together in your mind because I never said that.

Psykoma said:
Except that's not the argument you posted. You posted that women are idealized as well, but sorry - they aren't.
i·de·al·ize (-d-lz)
v. i·de·al·ized, i·de·al·iz·ing, i·de·al·iz·es
v.tr.
1. To regard as ideal.
2. To make or envision as ideal.
v.intr.
1. To render something as an ideal.
2. To conceive ideals or an ideal.

They are so long as they fit someone's ideal.

Jim's choice of words was poor.
No, they are idealized if they fit the general ideals of the group they represent.
Women game characters are what they think men find ideal in women, that's not idealization, that's objectification.
If the women game characters were what they thought women would find ideal in women, then that would be idealization.
 

Imp_Emissary

Mages Rule, and Dragons Fly!
Legacy
Aug 9, 2020
2,315
1
3
Country
United States
verdant monkai said:
I know what Jim means but I disagree to a certain extent. Whilst women are often made to be sex objects, men are made into objects of violence. Reduced to nothing but a grunting monster that just wants violence and slaughter. Thats not one of my ideals and I don't wan't to be that.

Theres a guy in skyrim called Hrongar who sums this up "I'm not a man I'm a weapon in human form".


I will obviously admit that women have it a lot worse. It's just that objectification of men does exist and it is a valid complaint. It's just that I don't think devs should be told to curb their games in anyway, to avoid offending people or making it safer for certain groups. Not because I don't want women enjoying games, just because I don't like it when art is stifled and censored.
True. There are many "manly men" in Skyrim, but there are also men who don't at all fit that description(Nazeem=prick). Just as there are women in Skyrim who are pretty girly girls, and other women will cut your head off as soon as they look at you(not just the bandits). Some aren't even that pretty either. Though, none on either gender are fat.

That said, Skyrim is kind of the exception that proves the rule. There are many different types of male/female characters because that's what the game is famous for, and that is how they are made almost always.

Many other games can't say that.
 

the December King

Member
Legacy
Apr 4, 2020
1,580
1
3
Psykoma said:
the December King said:
I always felt that the protagonist/hero in an adventure story should most likely reflect what is needed or wanted of him or her. Lara Croft has to have 'sexy' (or in practical terms, developed and strong) abs and legs to make jump after jump and climb ridiculous things. She has to be fit, and to many people fit is sexy, on a very basic level.
I'm sorry, but the "the women have to look like for what they do in the game to be realistically feasible" does not work.

I guarantee you, a woman who could 'realistically' do all that Lara Croft does has 0 boob - all muscle (thighs and butt for that matter as well). A real life woman who can do what Lara Croft does has the same body as Kratos. Well, minus the willy.

the December King said:
Not sure where I am going here, but I assume toned or muscular men must be attractive to some women, or something.
Yes, there are some who do find that attractive.
But the point is that they are incidental to it all, they aren't the target.
Fair enough, I suppose, but again I was suggesting that the characters in action/adventure games should look like they COULD do some of the things they do, but I didn't mean to imply any sense of realism.

Because there is none, really.

If you get shot you can't normally hide for a moment and then regenerate, for example.

Rock-climbers and long-jumpers don't all look like WWE headliners. I was just saying that Lara fits the image/ideal better than, say, a non mountain- climbing, long-jumping stripper. Or something.

And again, the target would be the audience that pays the company for a product, so if giant ham-fisted troglydyte for a protagonist appeals to the demographic, you pander your suits off to make that money. And if there really are almost 50% of gamers basically not bothering to speak up, the squeaky wheels will get the grease, I guess?
 

Jimothy Sterling

New member
Apr 18, 2011
5,976
0
0
YES!!!!!!

Thank God for Jim. Because now, whenever some dolt brings up the "herpaderp, but menz are sexualised too!1!" in the eternal sexism discussion threads, I can just link them to this rather than having to write out paragraph upon paragraph of gender role theory.

Seriously, I don't care how many times its been brought up, it needs to keep getting brought up until developers and publishers actually make an effort for it to go away.

Father Time said:
Jim there's one argument I like to bring up when talk up of objectification in games comes up, and I'd like to know what you think.

Why should we care about objectifying fictional characters?
Because whether they're fictional or not, the way they are represented not only tells us how the author, artist or developer feels about a character, but also how they feel about the demographic of which that character is from.



A developer who includes a blatantly racist portrayal of a black character isn't just demeaning the character himself. He is also insulting any black person who might play the game, by saying he doesn't care what reaction it may provoke. That developer is essentially saying explicitly how little he cares for black people, by including a character whose only purpose is to negatively portray black people.

It's the same with female characters. A developer who portrays women in an unhealthily objectified way isn't just demeaning their characters, they're insulting any women who may want to play the game. They're saying "This is what I think of you, and anyone of your gender!" And when those portrayals frequently look like this or this, that's a big problem in the industry.


I've heard that it's off putting to women but why is the argument always that 'it puts women off to all video games' rather than 'it puts off women to those specific games'? I mean there has been a rise in women playing so how much have they really put off women to all games?
Because it is endemic in a large proportion of 'triple-A' games, to the point that many women probably look at how your average female character is portrayed, and feel it's not worth getting into gaming at all.

The main area where women have been getting into gaming is 'casual' gaming. A form of gaming where, to contrast, negative portrayals of female characters tend to be far less endemic, given how abstract or non-narrative based those games tend to be. It's kind of hard to objectify a female character in something like Fruit Ninja or Cut The Rope.
 

Jack and Calumon

Digimon are cool.
Dec 29, 2008
4,190
0
0
DrunkenElfMage said:
Jack and Calumon said:
All very good points and arguments that have, unfortunately, been covered many times by many people for about a year now. Sure, people still use this defence so you could argue it bears repeating, but honestly this has been said ad nauseum. No new perspectives were brought up, no new ideas, just the ones covered by everyone else.

Not that it detracts from the points you've made. I firmly agree, it's just dull to see what you've seen before.

Calumon's sleeping, I'm lazy. Bleck.
You'd be surprised to find out just how many people don't know or haven't seen things that you would think that everyone should have heard about already.

I know people who haven't seen Star Wars, anime fans who haven't watched Cowboy Bebop, shooter fans who haven't played Half Life, Half Life 2, or Portal.

Just because you think everyone has heard this already, doesn't mean they have and if a tenth of the audience Jim has has learned something new, then I would say this is a video well made.
I think if anyone cared about this debate enough to watch this, they would have seen this. Heck, MovieBob did it nearly a year ago. and I'm not even going to point out the massive amounts of people who've said this in forum debates, blog posts and several articles.

I did say that the argument is still being said and that does grant, perhaps, repeating that counterpoint until people stop saying it. My point is is that the vast majority of people have heard this and this video is dull because of that. We've heard this before, it's been said already. The majority have heard this and now we're having the same thing but with Jim's face and voice. You can argue that if someone's going to get enlightened, it's worth doing sure. That doesn't mean I can't say it was boring for me to watch because in my view, this is very slow on the ball.

Calumon likes people. End of. Go home.
 

The Funslinger

Corporate Splooge
Sep 12, 2010
6,150
0
0
Jimothy Sterling said:
Your use of forward slashes has totally changed my way of doing things. I'll do a top ten gaming babes next week.
With a piece of female Willem Dafoe fan art making a surprise win on the number one spot, right? It counts because of Beyond: Two Souls!
 

Redd the Sock

New member
Apr 14, 2010
1,088
0
0
Legion said:
Muspelheim said:
Even if the arguement that both male and female characters are equally objectified would be entirely true, I can't for the life of me see how that solves anything. It would only make the problem worse, wouldn't it? It doesn't really seem like another reason to just ignore it and go on as usual if the problem is that much larger.
The thing is, that most people from what I have seen do not use the "They are both objectified" argument as a way of suggesting that it should be ignored, but as a way of pointing out that the issue isn't with bad female characters, but with bad characters overall.

That writers should be working on writing decent characters in the first place, rather than simply trying to fix female characters.

Note that I am not expressing my own opinion, merely pointing out what I have seen when people actually talk about male objectification.

Although I would say that despite most male characters being written to appeal to male gamers. They pretty much exist to make "witty" one liners and shoot things. So while they are not "objectified", they are pretty bad in their own right, as the "ideal" male is apparently a meat head with the inability to converse like a normal person, no emotions or value for human life.

Which I think is the point people who make the argument are trying to get across.

Well some of them.

There does seem to be a fair amount of people who actually think the muscular men in gaming are the equivalent of the sexualised women. Which is worrying.
It depends on the guy and the girl in question. Dante didn't go shirtless for the guys to look at his abs.

As someone that has used that argument in the past, I do so more to address the issue of self image: specifically that stereotypically men don't look at Kratos and think they need to hit the gym while an attractive female character seems to put off women that can't live up to the big boobs and thin waists. It isn't that I don't get where women are coming from, but I think the wrong message gets taken away. I'm a 35 your old hairy guy with minor acne, crooked teeth, and a beer gut, and I don't get self conscious when I see Dante, or Brad Pitt, or a muscle bound guy in tights in a comic book. I'm not always happy with everything about me, but I know I don't have to live up to some ideal, especially one that can only exist digitally, or through plastic surgery, starvation diets, non-stop exercise, and drugs.

But an element behind these gender topics is that yes, a lot of women still feel the need to live up to the Lara Crofts, and the response is to minimize their usage, not to try and break through their personal beauty myth. I'd like to think that a something women could learn from the guys in these debates is that you don't need to have your self worth dictated by how much you match something designed to be an unrealistic fantasy, and that the problem we do have with the beauty myth, exists less because of the myth's existence, but on people that do seem to think that their fantasy should be reality. Don't attack Lara Croft for being attractive, or anyone that finds her attractive. Attack those that expect you to be her, especially if that someone is yourself.
 

mdqp

New member
Oct 21, 2011
190
0
0
DVS BSTrD said:
That's why they have a whole game world made for them to do just that. The females on the other hand... you don't get 8 hour games about putting on make-up, doing cardio at the gym, sticking to a low fat diet and shopping for impractical fanservice clothing. =/

Well, not any good games anyway.
I know you didn't mean it, but that sounded terribly sexist right there, I think you might want to word it differently... :D

As someone pointed out before, the point about living up to any standard is madness. If your friends pressure into certain standards, they aren't really your friends, and if it's your family doing it, well, they might still be your family, but they might just suck. And society is pretty much a faceless, shapeless thing, getting pushed by it into doing anything is something I can't really understand. Also, even if someone was pressuring you into anything, you still have a functioning brain, which allows you to disregard any dumb suggestion thrown your way.

Also, I believe it's a bit unfair to arbitrarily say: "if males are inept in this media, that's a standard which is easy to meet, while if they act like badasses in that media, then it's just empowering". I agree there is an issue in variety and quality of female characters portrayal in videogames, but that's just cherry picking.
 

DGMockingJay

New member
Feb 6, 2013
5
0
0
Groenteman said:
Same goes for popular media. Sure theres a place for DoA and Gears of War, just like in movies theres a place for porn and cheesy action flicks, books have place for erotic novels and whatnot, etc etc. This does not mean we want a whole bloody medium to be just porn and muscly peabrains (and those who do want that, why the hell are you complaining? there not every going to be a shortage of those)

Also romance novels are a genre, not a medium. Gaming is a medium, shooters are a genre. 'male-centric' is not even an essential part of shooters. Try and think a bit harder about your analogies.
The medium has several genres that serve to men.FPS and Fighting Simulators for example. Just like books have a genre that serve females specifically.

Thats not to say that video games as a medium cater exclusively to men. I mean if the idea is, that there are no game that exist in this world that have good female characters, women would like, then thats truly not the case. Games like Tomb Raider, Mass Effect, Dragon Age, Resident Evil 6 + Revelations, Beyond Two Souls, Remember Me have good female characters, and most of them are recent or upcoming.

Nobody asks for these games. They just exist. And now with the advent of female gamer demographic, this type of games are only going to increase. Organic growth. Do you think teenage girls demanded chick flicks to be made?? No. People make them still because there is demand.

Also, Look at Wii games. Now I wont say it serves to females, but the number of female gamers on Wii is massive, even more than men [80% of Wii owner are females]. Now they must be doing something to attract the female gamers, I am sure.

Also I find it tough to believe that 47% of gamers are women even though the games exclusively cater to men.. I dont think such a large number of women are playing games even though games dont even consider their needs.
 

Jimothy Sterling

New member
Apr 18, 2011
5,976
0
0
Psykoma said:
No, they are idealized if they fit the general ideals of the group they represent.


Women game characters are what they think men find ideal in women, that's not idealization, that's objectification.
If the women game characters were what they thought women would find ideal in women, then that would be idealization.
i·de·al (-dl, -dl)
n.
1. A conception of something in its absolute perfection.
2. One that is regarded as a standard or model of perfection or excellence.
3. An ultimate object of endeavor; a goal.
4. An honorable or worthy principle or aim.
adj.
1.
a. Of, relating to, or embodying an ideal.
b. Conforming to an ultimate form or standard of perfection or excellence.
2. Considered the best of its kind.
3. Completely or highly satisfactory: The location of the new house is ideal.
4.
a. Existing only in the mind; imaginary.
b. Lacking practicality or the possibility of realization.
5. Of, relating to, or consisting of ideas or mental images.
6. Philosophy
a. Existing as an archetype or pattern, especially as a Platonic idea or perception.
b. Of or relating to idealism.

Idealism is subjective.

I also question the assertion that having the personality of an angry cardboard box is an "ideal" that men strive for.
 

Jimothy Sterling

New member
Apr 18, 2011
5,976
0
0
I have brought this up several times now so I am going to sound like a broken record, Soapapras, Romantic Comedies, Twilight, did any of these make any effort to appeal to men, to include men? Did they ever even discuss it.

Even stuff that is supposed to be for a primarily male audience has horrible male characters, Two and a Half men, Big Bang Theory, IT Crowd.
Only in very very few cases is the tide turning and now the guy who played Al Bundy, one of the most pathetic examples of men, is playing Jay, an almost Yoda-like character in a family comedy.

That said, the point is kind of valid. And there have been two instances when I have actually seen men objectified,DMC and Two Broke Girls' Candy Man, and I loved both because finally men are being shown as describable to women.

Still, I don't see why gamers are the only ones discussing problems in their media while female audience remains complete quiet about how men are treated in things that are supposed to appeal mainly to them. Once when I was trying to search for anything with a 2 girl one guy love triangle, a woman's post I saw, and several people agreed with her, said that they would hate such a thing and not want to see it. And because of them I don't get anything to wipe out the disgust I feel seeing two men fight for a woman, it made the Dark Knight unwatchable for me, it made Legend of Korra unwatchable and it may make Arrow unwatchable too.
 

Jimothy Sterling

New member
Apr 18, 2011
5,976
0
0
the December King said:
Why do I often come here to hear about games and entertainment, and end up leaving feeling like someone has tried to make me feel bad for being a white male?
I don't think anyone, maybe not even the creators themselves (maybe) go in with that intent...

It's just that so many people think that the White Male is the DEFAULT only kind of person that exists, and treat everyone else is some strange exotic other-wordly oddity that they have no idea what to do with/address like a normal freakin human being. Soooo what happens is that you either make the Other Worldly Oddities A) trophies only if they look pretty enough to make you look that much cooler, B) the default enemy when they're ugly enough/TOO different, or C) make their differences the DEFINING trait about them (or at least overwhelming trait), beating you over the head with "LOOK AT HOW DIFFERENT I AM! THIS GAME/SHOW/MOVIE CARES ABOUT DIFFERENT PEOPLE! PRAISE US FOR ACKNOWLEDGING THAT DIFFERENT PEOPLE EXIST DESPITE HOW PEDANTIC THE REST OF OUR PRODUCT IS!"

Thanks, media producer person. Captain Obvious wasn't around so good thing you were here to tell me this amazing discovery.
 

CalUKGR

New member
Dec 9, 2012
7
0
0
The problem is, Jim, that some men in some games are objectified - certainly on a purely visual level. I'd cite Dante, from the most recent DMC game. Both he and his gorgeous-looking twin brother are dreamily good-looking young men, designed by someone with a VERY keen appreciation of male beauty. Personally (and speaking as a gay man) I can't get enough of a look at him (opening cut-scene FTW!).

It is true enough to say that in most games most male characters are indeed idealised; but in a few, like DMC, they are clearly objectified as well - and as us Brits would say: Gwooarh! Eh?
 

DGMockingJay

New member
Feb 6, 2013
5
0
0
Orekoya said:
1337mokro said:
Clovus said:
1337mokro said:
Ashoten said:
I have heard this argument before when people talk about comic book women being objectified. This is the best response I have seen.



Make of it what you will.
Question!!! Why does Superman shave his legs? HOW does Superman shave his legs? I mean Greenlantern I can get, Human with alien technology. How does Superman manage though? Industrial strength polymer leg waxing?
Like, maybe he just uses his breath to freeze his own leg and then just brushes them off. Or maybe he just, like, burns them off with this eyes.
Can Superman's powers harm himself? His hair is basically indestructible if not he'd have his glorious mullet burned of every single time a heat based enemy was encountered. So why should there be an exception for his own heat vision which still works on the same principles and does not seem to be all that strong, compared to other heat powers in the same universe.

Kryptonite razorblades?
There you go.
I think he uses his laser eyes, because its fast and efficient.

If his hairs were really indestructible, how come his own laser eyes destroys them??
 

FoolKiller

New member
Feb 8, 2008
2,409
0
0
Dire Sloth said:
This is my idea of an idealized female protagonist:
Now in video games this becomes a problem because people will claim that its just a guy with a female skin.
 

CrazyCapnMorgan

Is not insane, just crazy >:)
Jan 5, 2011
2,742
0
0
Jimothy Sterling said:
Objectification And... Men?

A common argument in the ongoing debate over gender and videogames is that women and men both are equally objectified. Is that really true?

Watch Video
Great video, even if the subject has been brought up numerous times. A worthy debate, examination and rebuffing is always welcome in these types of affairs.

I know you touched briefly on the whole exclusivity of the male hero "ideal" and how they can be varied and you touched upon the variety of female NPCs, but I wonder if you've played or seen anything of Persona 3 or Persona 4? These characters are not overly sexualized AND have realistic traits and flaws that, in my opinion, should be brought to light in this type of discussion on how to portray different kinds of people correctly. Kanji Tatsumi and Naoto Shirogane are two of the most well thought out characters from Persona 4, as well as Aigis and Junpei from Persona 3. I wonder if, in future episodes, you could touch on these examples of characters and how they impact, not only the player, but the image of the industry?

Just my two cents, Jim.
 

Jimothy Sterling

New member
Apr 18, 2011
5,976
0
0
Men are Idealized in gaming, woman are sexualized.

The point is that men and woman may both be reduced to objects but they are done so thought a heterosexual male perspective (ironically invoking a lot of unintentional homo-erotic iconography but whatever the "Ewwww gay" impulse of the mainstream gaming industry is another discussion) I guess you could call both a form of objectification but men are objectified to be powerful and worshiped.

Gaming essentially takes place in what other forms of media would critique as "The male gaze". We use the protagonists as vessels for ourselves and the female characters are only seen as appealing if we can look at them. You're meant to feel like you're a big powerful dude when you play as a man and place yourself as him in a fighting game but when you play as a woman you're meant to be looking AT her not looking through her eyes in her perspective.
 

verdant monkai

New member
Oct 30, 2011
1,519
0
0
Imp Emissary said:
True. There are many "manly men" in Skyrim, but there are also men who don't at all fit that description(Nazeem=prick). Just as there are women in Skyrim who are pretty girly girls, and other women will cut your head off as soon as they look at you(not just the bandits). Some aren't even that pretty either. Though, none on either gender are fat.

That said, Skyrim is kind of the exception that proves the rule. There are many different types of male/female characters because that's what the game is famous for, and that is how they are made almost always.

Many other games can't say that.
I'm talking about this character as an individual nothing to do with Skyrim other than its where he comes from. He is just an example of a man who has been objectified into a killing machine, which isn't nessecarily an ideal that most men want to achieve.

And to set the record straight I love the Elder Scrolls but the characters are some of the worst in existence. They may be diverse but they are all boring forgettable cardboard cut outs.
 

Ukomba

New member
Oct 14, 2010
1,528
0
0
franksands said:
Ukomba said:
Don't both genders want to be desirable? Making male characters appeal to men, means making a man whom women want. Old and grizzled can still be attractive to women. Sean Connery won People's Sexiest Man Alive at 59, and there are regularly men over 40. It seems to come down to more what each gender finds attractive and playing to that. Women buy those skimpy outfits and try to pull off those looks even when they shouldn't.

Games are playing up that old 'men are shallow, women are deep' stereotype of what each find attractive. Not necessarily wrongly. My wife can watch Hunchback of Notre Dame and say Esmeralda should have chosen Quasimodo. And it seems just as many women go for the dark, troubled, and brooding Snape as do Edward or Jacob.

For the record, I'd like to see more variety of women in games for variety's sake, but this might be more of a 'men and women are different' issue. I personally like the female avatars. I preferred Fem Shepard to Male Shepard, and had no problem romancing Garrus with her. My wife preferred a blond male renegade Shepard.

*Side question* is Jack from Mass Effect objectified? She wears the skimpiest outfit and I'm sure fits some peoples definition of desirable.

*Side Side note* Is it weird to find Kasumi and Tali the most attractive females in Mass Effect? They are the most covered.
(M)Ass Effect 2 wins the trophy for most objectified women. Aside from Jack, you have Samara, the justicar with high red heels. But the 1st place goes to Miranda, because the camera always focuses on her ass.
Ah, no, I believe you'll find that Final Fantasy X still holds that trophy.

As for ME2. I don't know. I never found Samara attractive, like, at all. Not sure if it was her age, her design, or her personality, she just never came off as an object of desire to me. Same goes for Miranda. Sure she's got a good body, but I just couldn't get over her being an infertile, cloned, gender switched man. Jack didn't seem come off as objectified either. I couldn't romance her either, I just kept seeing her as a wounded child. She was great in ME3.
 

GreenTeaGal

New member
Apr 19, 2011
10
0
0
I enjoyed this, thank you! Enlightenment aside, I would kinda like to see some games where men are truly objectified... for the sake of equality of course.
 

Piorn

New member
Dec 26, 2007
1,097
0
0
If big publishers can afford to neglect half the playerbase, there is even less room to justify the greedy business tactics of recent years.
Still, I'm glad to be just an observer. They'll either work to find a solution, or they don't.
People will vote with their purchases, so we don't actually have to talk about it, we just have to wait it out and let reason take it's course.
 

Eve Charm

New member
Aug 10, 2011
760
0
0
I'm lost to the point where good looking female character is nothing but objective but good looking male character is idealized.

DOA for example, all the characters have some story and they are just there to fight for a prize pretty much aside from the volleyball game What makes the females objective but the shirtless guys not. And no being a guy character doesn't put a better story, or get the woman story, it the same thing.

The Ideal woman isn't pretty? Ya I know we all have different tastes but how many of say 100 people are going to write down features like Fat, ugly or hairy. on the topic of boobs and butts tho, ya plastic surgery is pretty big in the us, same for male hairloss. How many male leads of games are balding ;p.

Playing MMO's, the big fat ugly character builds are hardly ever used and when they are used it's people making a joke character male or female, so can you see reasons on not spending a ton of money to make ugly character models.

Face it, Men and Women don't want ugly characters in games, the only that want them are for jokes.
 

FoolKiller

New member
Feb 8, 2008
2,409
0
0
Dire Sloth said:
FoolKiller said:
Dire Sloth said:
This is my idea of an idealized female protagonist:
Now in video games this becomes a problem because people will claim that its just a guy with a female skin.
Damn. Just can't win!
Actually I posted why there is a problem with the whole process at one point.

If a game has a female protagonist that is masculine, then its bad because its a masculine character with a female skin.
If a game has a female protagonist that is feminine, then its bad because it stereotypes females.
If a game has a female protagonist that is genderless, then its bad because once again, its just a male character with a female skin.
If a game has a male protagonist then its bad because it isn't female.

I read complaints that fall into these four categories every time. The devs see this too and think "well, we can't win no matter what we do so lets do the safe thing and have a male protagonist"

There are two big problems overall.

1. The way that females are portrayed a lot of the time. The crazy attire and poses need to be removed.

2. No one has ever actually come up with a real solution to specific things rather than just sweeping generalizations. I've actually asked several people and they just make general statements without being to give one solid concrete example of what to specifically do.

The problem that I see is that the concept of a feminine trait is sexist by definition and so you can't be non-sexist and use those traits.
 

Darth_Payn

New member
Aug 5, 2009
2,868
0
0
An interesting theory, Jim, but how do you know for sure women wouldn't play games with the kind of protagonists you talk about, just for fun? To me, if any series would have a large female audience, it's Final Fantasy and their "girly men" leads. Also, you left out the approach of male/female sexual characterization from games by Bioware.

And what's this about Bioshock: Infinite's creator intending to make it for the "DudeBro" crowd?
 

Imp_Emissary

Mages Rule, and Dragons Fly!
Legacy
Aug 9, 2020
2,315
1
3
Country
United States
Spearmaster said:
Internet-"Hey! There is a problem"

Me- "What is it?"

Internet-"Women in games are over sexualized!!!"

Me-"Why is that a problem?"

Internet-"because some people don't like it"

Me-"Well I don't like tomatoes on my tacos"

Internet-"Derp,Derp'Derp"

Me-"Is it hurting people?"

Internet-"Well there is absolutely no evidence but we say it is... so yes it is hurting people."

Me-"Ohh, so what do you plan to do about your problem?

Internet-"Just another wave of over entitled bitching about someone's art form and how things have to change"

Me-"Really? I just don't buy tacos that have tomatoes on them, some people like tomatoes on their tacos so I don't think it has to change"

Internet-"Derp,Derp,Derp"


**Disclaimer**
This was a fictional dramatization of a typical conversation with the internet.

Is there a solution in this mire of sexism in video games that doesn't trample all over an artists creative design? Or is it nothing more than a whine about stuff people don't like. I hear thousands of people AGAINST sexism in video games and AGAINST over sexualized women and now even the idealization of men. Never once have I heard someone FOR a solution to this supposed problem, just whiners and the supposed moderates that say we should have discussions about it which is just a cowards way of supporting the whiners by giving credence to their argument.
:) It's good cheese.

Goes well with whine. I know because I've had some here already.

Anyway, I think the reason no one talks about a solution is because we all kind of "know" what it is.

We just have to ask/demand more diversity in game characters. Whether or not the developers/publishers listen is another thing. After all like we found out with The Last of Us, they seem to not want to even bring women in to test the game, so I guess all we can do with others is keep asking, or be louder.

Then, all we must do is buy the games with characters that we find to be more diverse(in this particular case, women who aren't made to be overly "sexy"), and maybe tell them why we bought the game with a short email. We can still buy games that don't of course. Heck, buy Dragon's Crown and you can do both. It has some over sexualized female characters, as well as some that aren't like the elf archer.

Also, while people are not being hurt physically, or insulted directly by the overuse of some characters in games. It is making some feel bad, or uncomfortable.
 

Ben Los

New member
Jan 10, 2013
3
0
0
Though some points in this video may be redundant, Jim is not beating a dead horse. The horse is not dead until we see some honest-to-God change in gaming culture.

Also worth mentioning: Can you really blame Jim for going after the topic of "Gender Roles and Gaming" when it has repeatedly generated more discussion than almost any other topic? I'm sure Jim wouldn't continue making episodes about it if the viewers didn't create such a stir each time. That stir can be seen as evidence that the issue is in the back of many people's minds, and therefore needs to be continuously talked about.
 

Jimothy Sterling

New member
Apr 18, 2011
5,976
0
0
mdqp said:
DVS BSTrD said:
That's why they have a whole game world made for them to do just that. The females on the other hand... you don't get 8 hour games about putting on make-up, doing cardio at the gym, sticking to a low fat diet and shopping for impractical fanservice clothing. =/

Well, not any good games anyway.
I know you didn't mean it, but that sounded terribly sexist right there, I think you might want to word it differently... :D
I'm talking about the ideal female in videogames, Not IRL. And a lot of videogames ARE terribly sexist.
 

Mosley_Harmless

New member
May 13, 2013
3
0
0
If you want things to change, you have to make the effort yourself. You can't point the finger at the industry and accuse them of being sexist pigs just because they're not looking out for your personal interests. That's just lazy. There seem to be plenty of people that are fed up with the way things are, just like there are plenty of people who feel like things are just fine. The people that are fed up should make an assessment of how much they really care, find a group of likeminded individuals and start making the videogames that they themselves would like to see, which is exactly what every other developer out there did. They had a vision and they made it happen, they didn't try to guilt trip some faceless industry into doing it for them. If you can't be bothered to put in the hard work, then maybe you don't really care, maybe you're just looking for something to be mad about.
 

Jimothy Sterling

New member
Apr 18, 2011
5,976
0
0
Ha! Jim cam! :p

Anyway, great vid. Nice to see a direct way differentiate the roles of women and men in games.

Although i don't think anyone should want to be Nathan Drake, he's a bigger douche than Kratos XD
 

wizzy555

New member
Oct 14, 2010
637
0
0
CalUKGR said:
The problem is, Jim, that some men in some games are objectified - certainly on a purely visual level. I'd cite Dante, from the most recent DMC game. Both he and his gorgeous-looking twin brother are dreamily good-looking young men, designed by someone with a VERY keen appreciation of male beauty. Personally (and speaking as a gay man) I can't get enough of a look at him (opening cut-scene FTW!).

It is true enough to say that in most games most male characters are indeed idealised; but in a few, like DMC, they are clearly objectified as well - and as us Brits would say: Gwooarh! Eh?

Yeah, its odd that people don't realise that one man's power fantasy is another man's (or woman's) sex fantasy.
 

Legion

Were it so easy
Oct 2, 2008
7,190
0
0
Redd the Sock said:
It depends on the guy and the girl in question. Dante didn't go shirtless for the guys to look at his abs.

As someone that has used that argument in the past, I do so more to address the issue of self image: specifically that stereotypically men don't look at Kratos and think they need to hit the gym while an attractive female character seems to put off women that can't live up to the big boobs and thin waists. It isn't that I don't get where women are coming from, but I think the wrong message gets taken away. I'm a 35 your old hairy guy with minor acne, crooked teeth, and a beer gut, and I don't get self conscious when I see Dante, or Brad Pitt, or a muscle bound guy in tights in a comic book. I'm not always happy with everything about me, but I know I don't have to live up to some ideal, especially one that can only exist digitally, or through plastic surgery, starvation diets, non-stop exercise, and drugs.

But an element behind these gender topics is that yes, a lot of women still feel the need to live up to the Lara Crofts, and the response is to minimize their usage, not to try and break through their personal beauty myth. I'd like to think that a something women could learn from the guys in these debates is that you don't need to have your self worth dictated by how much you match something designed to be an unrealistic fantasy, and that the problem we do have with the beauty myth, exists less because of the myth's existence, but on people that do seem to think that their fantasy should be reality. Don't attack Lara Croft for being attractive, or anyone that finds her attractive. Attack those that expect you to be her, especially if that someone is yourself.
A line of argument I saw a woman use in another one of these topics in fact. She basically said more or less the same thing, that she doesn't have a problem with these fictional characters as her sense of self worth isn't determined by attractive characters.

A point I can certainly understand and get behind, as I also don't look at any fictional characters and think they are an idealised person I should try and be like.

But I don't think that is the reason for why a lot of people don't like them. I think the reason is because they believe that it reduces women's importance down to their physical appearance, that the characters personality, thoughts and feelings are seen as unimportant, whereas their physical appearance is.

I can definitely follow that line of argument in regards to characters who are practically nothing beyond "sex appeal" such as Rachel from Ninja Gaiden 2; but I also frequently see people who object to women being sexy, even if they are also an amazing character beyond that. Which to me is not a fair judgement to make.

In a thread yesterday somebody used Jill Valentine as an example of a good character who wasn't just there for sex appeal. The rebuke was that she is now more sexy, and that's a bad thing. As if being more sexy negates all of the positive traits about her character.

It suggests to me the idea that a woman cannot be taken seriously if she is also sexually attractive, and that is something I find pretty offensive.

Darth_Payn said:
And what's this about Bioshock: Infinite's creator intending to make it for the "DudeBro" crowd?
A misinterpretation made to sound like it had anything to do with gender.

Basically people asked why Bioshock Infinite cover art had a clichéd grizzled male protagonist staring off into the distance, when the game is not just another shooter. Ken Levine said that the cover doesn't need to appeal to the people who are already into the game, as people who like the series are not using the cover as a means of deciding whether to get it.

The cover is meant to advertise to people who may not have heard of it. People who don't follow games like the people on here do, and will walk into a game store, pick up the boxes of games that catch their eye, and then flip them over to find out more info on the back.

That's why the cover is the way that it is. He wanted to appeal to the general action/shooter crowd who might otherwise never have heard of Bioshock. So copying the kind of cover you typically see on a military shooter such as Battlefield is probably a smart way to go about it.

People are then using that as a "Having a woman on the box will scare men off!" when the reason was purely to try and appeal to the kind of person who plays games like COD. It's not that it might scare them off, it's that it's not effective marketing.
 

Imp_Emissary

Mages Rule, and Dragons Fly!
Legacy
Aug 9, 2020
2,315
1
3
Country
United States
Eve Charm said:
I'm lost to the point where good looking female character is nothing but objective but good looking male character is idealized.

DOA for example, all the characters have some story and they are just there to fight for a prize pretty much aside from the volleyball game What makes the females objective but the shirtless guys not. And no being a guy character doesn't put a better story, or get the woman story, it the same thing.

The Ideal woman isn't pretty? Ya I know we all have different tastes but how many of say 100 people are going to write down features like Fat, ugly or hairy. on the topic of boobs and butts tho, ya plastic surgery is pretty big in the us, same for male hairloss. How many male leads of games are balding ;p.

Playing MMO's, the big fat ugly character builds are hardly ever used and when they are used it's people making a joke character male or female, so can you see reasons on not spending a ton of money to make ugly character models.

Face it, Men and Women don't want ugly characters in games, the only that want them are for jokes.
I don't think the point is that the "ideal" woman for women can't be sexy. What is being said is that they don't have to look like
to be sexy.

For an example Jim pulled from the same game, they could look like
 

karamazovnew

New member
Apr 4, 2011
263
0
0
Female objectification in games is a double edged sword. Male gamers fail to realize that they are being objectified as well, by the developers and marketing strategists. We're basically viewed as cash dispensing drooling perverts, jerking off in our smelly little rooms, careful not to wake our parents, while our hidden homoerotic tendencies (we're all homophobes, aren't we?) make us faint at the sight of our virtual muscles and surreal heroism. Of course, that is true for a LOT of people, but those more intelligent and educated of us should see objectification for the insult it is.

Of course, this is more true for movies or TV series which feel that they can't keep our interest unless they show titties every 10 minutes or so. Or the gratuitous sex scenes that you find in any Hollywood movie these days. If I were to list a long list of my favorite movies, almost none of them features any sex scenes, unless integral to the plot and usually awkward, and most don't even have a single little kiss.

Funny then that we should point at games as the bad neighborhood of sexual objectification. Some of the most successful games don't even feature humans at all.
 

Jimothy Sterling

New member
Apr 18, 2011
5,976
0
0
This whole video was Jim misrepresenting this issue because people are disagreeing with him.

Firstly he claims that male characters are idealised because men want to be them, while female characters and objectified because men want them. The problem is that he's only looking at this from a male perspective. Do women idealise the female characters because they want to look like that and objectify the male characters because they want men who look like that? If they do then male characters are being objectified as much as female characters.

Secondly Jim complains that only men have positive traits, such as being brave and noble. This shows his sexist bias because men and women consider different traits positive. Men prefer to achieve specific goals through their own effort to prove how amazing they are, such as climbing mountains or building a motorbike, so they value traits associated with bravery. By contrast women are more concerned with social interactions, such as talking with other mothers or helping schools with fund raising, so they value traits such as communication. It Jim every wants female characters that women can relate to then he needs to stop demanding that they have the same traits as men.

Thirdly there's nothing wrong with a game maker producing games that don't appeal to every demographic. As Jim said in an earlier video "there's no perfect pasta sauce, only perfect pasta sauces". So what's wrong with making games that will appeal to men?
 

Gorrath

New member
Feb 22, 2013
1,648
0
0
Red X said:
Ha! Jim cam! :p

Anyway, great vid. Nice to see a direct way differentiate the roles of women and men in games.

Although i don't think anyone should want to be Nathan Drake, he's a bigger douche than Kratos XD
Well that's sort of the problem. Jim did a fine job of differentiating between objectification and idealization, but without demonstrating that idealization doesn't cause many or all of the exact same problems as objectification, I don't know that we're doing ourselves a favor by pretending they don't have a lot in common. Some might argue that idealization is, in fact, a form of objectification, and therefore carries all the same baggage. I don't claim that to be true, but I'd like to see it discussed.