Jimquisition: Objectification And... Men?

[WarpedintheHead]

Thing is traditional agency was for men in games and scifi/fantasy. Because it was a niche for nerds and geeks. Women had agency and sexualization of men in the romance genre, also now that its kinda blending all together more of the YA and urban fantasy genres are seeing more women agency.

If you look at these genres you would see very little male agency, hell one can look at the local bookstore and note while there are plenty of men on the covers they are usually quite sexualized and in many cases the face is obscured or hidden.

I think it would be foolish of my to expect male agency in said genres. Exp when I have a genre for me. Now that the fantasy and scifi genre is expanding I would expect more female agency and there is. But expecting female agency in the genre in its roots is the worst kind of historical revisioning I could possible imagine.


Of course mario rescued Peach, at the time no women would admit to playing it. Heck diverse actions towards nerds were still quite common in the 2000s.

Now that is not too say a more expansive genre wouldn't be appreciated. But acting like it should of been there at the start is just plain dishonesty. Men did not keep women out of the genre, women did. Now plenty of women tried to expand it for a while now, but I can't help but feel people need to take more from the examples of Andre Norton and Mercedes Lackey. Then expecting a company to start making games for you.

 

[Rebel_Raven]

Does Luigi's mansion series count? Scared guy clad in green ghost busting nervously? I didn't play it, but I've seen gameplay, and researched into it.
Kirby? Kirby's a dude.
Pacman?
Quantum Conundrum where you play as a little boy puzzle solving more than anything.
Pokemon games. I don't think Ash/red is a hulking he-man by any stretch of the imagination nevermind the male pokemon.
Closure.
Dungeon Defenders. the knight is in heart shaped boxer shorts, and is hardly an Adonis.
Zombie tycoon II.
Kingdom Hearts series, maybe?
Legend of mana?
The Sims series?
Link, perhaps?
That's a short list of guys that don't fit the hulking macho man, or typical guy. Go ahead nad dispute if you want. I'll be able to think up more.

None of them are ugly though. How many of those characters are the stereotypical overweight basement dwellers? Seems his point flew over your head there.

Your entire hyperbole in your posts is getting rather pathetic. Yes, there are more male protagonists than female, but there are a lot more female protagonists than you care to realize. Clearly you don't bother to play much games or even do your research.

I also find it funny with you suggesting that there should be games where the roles are reversed and have a woman saving the guy. Why the hell should the damsel in distress be a man, especially when I keep hearing people like you talk down about the damsel in distress? If there are to be games with reversed roles, then I hope they go all the way. Make a game where all the bad guys you kill are only females. Let females be the cannon fodder for once. Let the males be the ones worthy of saving instead of the women.

I find it funny that you would go out of your way to only play games with female protagonists. There's some deep-seeded sexism right there. It goes both ways. It's as sexist as guys refusing to play a game because the character is female.

Oh, you want outright UGLY male protagonists? Maybe you should've specefied, and asked as opposed to assuming those guys didn't ecxist, or that I didn't know about them. See, the guy I replying to just wanted people that weren't typical muclemen, and such as far as I know.
For you?
Boogerman, Chuck Rock, arguably everyone in Brink, earthworm Jim, Raiden kinda gotten ugly with his cyborg parts, Sir Daniel Fortesque, Stubbs the Zombie, Legacy of Kain's Raziel (Isn't raziel missing a lower jaw or something?)Cryptosporidium 137 from Destroy all humans was an ugly ugly alien guy. Deadpool's game hasn't been released just yet, but it will be. Deadpool is pretty damn ugly under that mask.
So, there's the ugly section. EASILY, there it is out of the past, present, and future of gaming. Guys not held up to adonis like perfect beauty.

Yeah, there's no basement dweller heroes just yet that I know of. Kinda close in Comix Zone, but nothing so sterotypical as an ugly one in a male only protagonist game. There probably is one out there, but if there is, you apparently didn't do your research if I find one. Want to go that route ye who thrusts fingers at me?

But where's the ugly female protagonists in female only protagonist games? Hm? Go ahead, and research that. Coz I'd say you have to research them.

So I'm not made of money, able to buy every game since the 80s just to get my fix, and get a powerful computer with god knows how much disk space if I wanna PC game. I'm not a huge fan of PC gaming either since there's so much that can go wrong with it.
So I'm not scraping the hell out of the corners of the internet, and scouring to find every last female only protagonist game? So I'm not learning Japanese to be able to play those games not released in the english speaking world?
Thing is I have to do stuff like that if you want me to go get every female protagonist only game to quell my wrath against the gaming industry... wait, no, I'll still find reasons to be angry, and dissapointed in them.
Ever hear of "Black Lotus?" No? That's coz it got turned into Sleeping Dogs, and Wei Shen replaced the original female protagonist while the game was being created.
Farcry 2 cut playable women out of their game.
God of war didn't have any playable women (presumeably in multiplayer) coz Sony couldn't figureout how to design them...
Want a lot more reasons I'm none too pleased with the gaming industry? Or can I save some typing?

I research like hell for more recent releases like Remember Me. I cry inside a bit every time I see someone ask what that game is when footage gets shown. What should be a prominent game from Capcom, a well known gaming company, laying in obscurity, and it's not even out yet! And it wil be in less than three weeks on June the 4th.

Oh, and Two Souls, Transistor, and... uhm... I think that's the list until 2014-15 for female only protagonist games. Not all ofthe list of games I want, though, like Deadpool. A male only protagonist game I presume. Or Saints Row 4, which allows gender select.

See, I HAVE to jump through hoops, and research to find female protagonist only games for the most part. Their commercials don't often appear on TV like male only protagonist Call of duties, Modern Warfares, and Metal Gears. No doubt GTA will get TV commercials, too well before 3 weeks before it comes out.
Color me surprised if I EVER see a TV commercial for "Remember Me."
Tomb Raider got sparse advertisement on TV. Huzzah! <.<

Meanwhile guys have quite the pick of past, present, and future games and have to do little research to find one. If they're good or not? Half the research I have to do.
You can't swing a dead cat in gamestop without knocking over half a shelf full of male only games. Meanwhile you gotta dig around for a female only protagonist game.

I do more to enjoy my hobby of gaming than most to say the least thanks to needing to research. People defending the status quo of gaming seem happy with that.

I'm wondering if you have anything against a guy being in the damsel in distress while a woman spends the game to save him? If so, why are you okay with women in that role? Do you look down on the NPCs you have to save? I'm not going to assume about your character like you so graciously assumed about me.

I don't look down on damsels in distress. They're there for the plot. Problem is the roles are so rarely reversed. Why's it gotta be that way?
I played tomb raider just fine saving a damsel in distress as Lara Croft. I looked forward to saving her. Largely a new experience for me, there.
Dragons Dogma had me saving several women as my female Arisen in quests dedicated to saving them! I'm not complaining about that. Infact I'm pretty endeared towards some of characters I saved.

Killing only women on the way instead of guys, and robots, and dinosaurs? Why not? 'z diffirent. Wouldn't be too surprised if someone made that game already anyhow. I dunno, I didn't research that. <.< But if I find one, you sure as hell didn't research either, so do you really wanna go that way?

Don't pretend I haven't played games where you killed women, sometimes unavoidably. Tomb Raider, Mortal Kombat, Shadow Warrior, Mass Effect, Skyrim, Oblivion, GTA Vice city/4, Saints row 2, 3, and hopefully 4. I've fought many women who got killed by someone else coz they didn't kill me, like Heavenly Sword.
Don't pretend there's never been a female villain in a game you have to kill, or got killed as a result for beating them. A lot of RPGs have them.

I've gamed plenty. If I missed female protagonists is because I've NEVER HEARD OF THEM. I wonder why? Rarity, lack of media? So I gotta google like mad to find lists of them, and hope that they still exist somewhere, and research them to make sure they're worth my limited funds, and not crappy games that rely almost solely on a scantily clad women for sales like Cross Blades, or infuriating messes like Metroid: Other M.

Also don't lump me in with people. I'm my own person. You can be angry at "them," but don't bring that baggage here. You don't know me. I'm not some general entity like the Gaming Industry, I'm a person you're singling out.

I prefer female protagonists, yes, but that doesn't mean I'm entirely excluding males from my gaming library, so I'm apparently not as sexist as the immature persons that won't ever play as a female character, especially a female character that makes out with a dude while your're still her.

See, I bought Red Dead Redemption because the premise was so thoroughly interesting! I couldn't relate to Marston at ALL, but I liked the game well enough. And the Undead Nightmare expansion pack!

Infamous, Sleeping Dogs, Quantum Conundrum are more somewhat recent games I can name off the top of my head that are in my collection whre I have to play as a guy.

I bought Batman Arkham City, and will be seeking out batman Arkham Asylum sooner or later (the latter hs no catwoman storyline, but I want one of Mark hamill's last Joker roles as I appreciate his work! I also appreciate Kevin Conroy's voice acting!).
I am considering the Deadpool game, too.
I like those properties, and respect them enough that they stick out from the Kratos like guys, and the 20-30 something underwear models like Nathan Drake, and Dante who don't really interest me as characters.

So, yeah, I may not be buying games willy nilly, and avoiding some I deem boring, and unimmersive, but I still have, and probably will buy games that FORCE me to play as a male.
've got a long long long list from the 80s to the near future of them. So I'm kinda tired of having to play as a guy nearly all the time to enjoy videogaming.

I've also played games that force me to play as a guy before I get to play as a woman, like the Way of the Samurai series, Resident Evil 5.

You still really wanna peg me as akin to the insecure males that will never play as a female character? The sort of people that the gaming industry is afraid of alienating which is attached to the fear that they'll loose so much money on it if they make a female protagonist only game?

Sexist? I don't think so. Jaded towards the typical dudebro? Yes. Eager for new rare luxuries like playing as a female protagonist in a game? Yes. Hence my preferrence for my own gender. If I respect a property well enough, I'll try'n buy it with my limited funds male or female.

 

[Rebel_Raven]

Blah blah blah.

Aside from Raiden and Deadpool, where the hell are those characters now that you've listed? Yeah, that's what I thought. Nowhere! No, Raiden is not ugly, even with his robotic parts, and Deadpool may be ugly under his mask, but we don't see his face, do we? No, he has a mask on, obviously.

Yes, I do have something against males being the damsels because it just seems to only please someone as insecure as you who seems only interested in role reversals. Spare me your garbage. No, I don't look down on female damsels or NPCs I have to save. Nice try, though.

I never said there weren't female villains. Maybe you should actually read what I wrote. I suggested making a game where the bad guys are only female, especially with female-only protagonists. Try actually reading what's actually written. No, I haven't found a game where all females are the bad guys. Are you suggesting that games exists. Then by all means, what is this game? Oh, and yes, I do want to go that way, even with all my research I did. So you can knock off that arrogant attitude and deal with it.

I've lumped you in with those other people because you've shown you deserve to be there. You keep talking about all those male protagonists in the history of gaming, yet the vast, vast, VAST majority of them have been forgotten.

He may have been pretty before, but that's changed as far as I'm concerned.

I've seen Deadpool's face in comics, and he might pull it off in game. Never know until the game is out. Point is, I dug up examples. Lots of examples, obscure or not.
And I'm just going on hideously disfigured people.

How about John Marston, who's not exatly a looker. Especially in his zombie form in Undead Nightmare.

Not seeing you answering my challenge of finding ugly female protagonists in female protagonist only games, though.

As for me being "insecure?" You couldn't be more wrong. I'm just fed up with the misogyny, sexism, and inequities in the gaming industry towards women. Am I blind towards the inequities vs men? Nope. Frankly they just aren't equal as far as I'm concerned. It's why I'm more inclined to see the inequities at least evened up before I fight for both.

Games where all your enemies are women?
Rose and camellia. Sure it's a flash game but you play the role of a wife of a dying/dead husband, and unfortunately all the other women of the house hate you. Now you are in a slap duel vs each of them.
Possibly the sequel to Rose and Camellia, too.

Skullgirls. All female cast. Some are evil. You gotta fight your compitention anyhow regardless of alignment. There's several other fighting games with an all female cast.

A game where you mow down women in a similar fashion to male grunts in shooters? I'll say you got me on this one. The headache you're giving me is putting me off researching.
Pretty sure it exists outside of hentai games, though, obscure as it is.

You're calling me arrogant for what I said to Homo Carnivorous? At least I apologized for it and meant well with it instead of being arrogant just to be spiteful.
I explained my reasoning behind my seeming arrogance. I certainly try to be civil, and try not to be arrogant.

So you're cutting down the majority of my examples of guys because they're forgotten?

You do realize a lot of female protagonists are already in the area of "forgotten?"

You may not think well of me, but you're not exactly makign a good impression either. Sounds a lot like you're defending the status quo of the gaming industry.

I'll spare you my "garbage" if you spare me your "garbage."

 

[Rebel_Raven]

As for me being "insecure?" You couldn't be more wrong. I'm just fed up with the misogyny, sexism, and inequities in the gaming industry towards women. Am I blind towards the inequities vs men? Nope. Frankly they just aren't equal as far as I'm concerned. It's why I'm more inclined to see the inequities at least evened up before I fight for both.

How ironic that this is your response. Inequities are either good or bad. Maybe they are not equal between the sexes, but so what? Why should that stop you from fighting against both. In other words, you just proved you don't actually want equality. You don't fight inequality by accepting inequality just because it doesn't affect you personally. But thanks for showing us your true colours.

I guess you never heard the phrase "beauty is in the eye of the beholder." Just because you find someone ugly doesn't mean others do. I don't see anything ugly with Raiden, even with his implants.

Yes, a lot of female protagonists may be forgotten. But many more male protagonists are too, plain and simple. Funny how you fail to mention that. That's mainly because of poor writing.

I haven't searched anything for you because I never said I would. You can do that yourself.

Your reply to Homo Carnivorous only showed you didn't even pay attention to what he wrote. He wasn't just talking about big, hulking men as you assumed.

No, I do not want the status quo. But to change the status quo means to also call out garbage posts like yours that's full of hypocrisy.

Ironic? My responce was an unintentnional consequence?

I'm not accepting the inequalities vs males. I said I wasn't blind to them, didn't I? Still inequities vs guys pales vs the inequalities with women, IMO.
Want me to fight against the inadequacies vs men? I am.
As female protagonists get more accepted, and wide spread, say in Call of Duty/MW eventually, the times might change enough to allow for more female enemies to help stamp out the "all cannon fodder are males" thing you brought up.
Frankly I've seen more variety in female cannon fodder than I have female protagonists.

More female protagonists might just help stamp out that whole "Only men get shown as slobbering muder machines!" complaint some have as sooner or later women are going to be shown like that more, and more thanks to women getting some equality in te poor writing department.

If you want changes vs the appearances of guys, they come in a wide variety from the Kratoses to the protagonist in Infamous: Second Son, to the trio of male leads in GTA 5. There's plenty of variety in appearances as far as bodies, and personalities go. I don't think we can outright halt the sexualized man any more than we can halt the sexualized woman, so I'm not fighting that battle as hard.

I'll grant you that minority ethnicities of people have a long way to go, but they're starting to diversify more and more.

So what inequities do you see with men in the gaming industry? You keep on about them, but you never really say them aside from being cannon fodder. Go ahead, and air them out. Help make people aware so they can talk about it, too. For the sake of the fight vs inadequate treatment vs males in the gaming industry!

If you want to talk about the inadequacies vs guys in the gaming industry, we sure can! Especially if you can be civil about it.

Fine, keep your opinion on Raiden. I sure as heck held back on my opinions on a lot of male protagonists appearances.

Many more male protagonists are forgotten because there were many more male protagonists period. Your argument doesn't hold water there. Poor writing happens to both genders, too. I'll freely admit that. They both get into some really bad games whih also adds to why they're forgotten.

I asked him if my list was inadequate, and I would've added more towards it if it wasn't. I just didn't have any hideous male protagonsits on mind then. Just a plethora of males who aren't perfect in one way or another.

I'll thank you to stop your attempts to demonize me. I'm no hypocrate. Wait, how am I a hypocrate? What am I telling people not to do that I am doing? Where are my moral shortcomings here? How about you explain that one to me.

 

[LastDarkness]

To play the Devils Advocate here, but you use alot of clips from Dead or Alive: Xtreme Beach Volly Ball. I have to say that as a gamer I joking got this game for a friend as a bit of a gag gift who then later got me to play it.
I had my doubts at first because I thought it was just going to be garbage wrapped in eye candy but after the first ten minutes the appeal of the girls wore off and I found that the game was a really good volly ball sports game underneath.

So dont just judge a game by imagery after all, sometimes they surprise you.

 

[Rebel_Raven]

...

Your hypocrisy comes when you say you recognize inequities of both, then admit in your previous post in refusing to fight both because you personally feel one pales in comparison to the other, as if that actually mattered. You don't say you want equality, then say something like that. That is what hypocrisy is. That should be obvious. It doesn't matter how minimal you feel inequality against a certain group is, recognizing it means you recognize a problem, and not speaking against is hypocritical, plain and simple.

Again, I don't care about who you find attractive. My point is that beauty is in the eye of the beholder. Lots of people don't find Raiden hideous. So quit pushing your opinion as fact here. Aside from a couple of characters you mentioned, many others you listed aren't automatically seen as hideous by many people. The fact that many have been forgotten should tell you that they haven't really caught on with people, or else they'd still be here as a franchise.

I don't have any qualms about more female protagonists, I never have, so I don't know why you keep arguing as if I said otherwise..

When did I say I "refuse" to fight for both genders? Quote me.

I can, will, and have talked about how males get mistreated, and agreed with points (including ones you made), and so on. I offered to talk about it, which you didn't take me up on it. How is that refusal?

I admitted bias towards being against the misogyny, and sexism towards women, but I never EVER ignored the problems with men, and never will. I recognize they exist. That is not hypocracy. That's just bias towards what I perceive to be larger/more numerous problems which can have a ripple effect of change for both genders when addressed. I feel like the way women are treated in the gaming industry is worse than the way men are. If you disagree, that's fine, but my opinion isn't likely to change. If we made a list of the way things weren't equal in games with one gender protagonists, I'm fairly certain that the list against women would be longer, and, the way I see it, tinged with more malice from the gaming industry which is what's annoying me most.

I recognized inequities towards men you made, and compared them to women's problems since it felt like you were countering my points without any agreement with my points.
If I kept talking about it, it's likely coz you never said "I agree" on anything I said on the matter, rather treated it like you were contesting the matter, never indicating you wanted to change the subject.

You said you didn't like the status quo, so, we have a similar viewpoint on the status quo in that it needs to change? You just don't like the way I say it? Good enough for me.

Honestly, miscommunication was likely why this topic got dragged on so long between us.

Also your posts were largely just blasting me with insults with little description on why you were doing it until I asked for elaboration.

 

[Rebel_Raven]

When did I say I "refuse" to fight for both genders? Quote me.

As for me being "insecure?" You couldn't be more wrong. I'm just fed up with the misogyny, sexism, and inequities in the gaming industry towards women. Am I blind towards the inequities vs men? Nope. Frankly they just aren't equal as far as I'm concerned. It's why I'm more inclined to see the inequities at least evened up before I fight for both.

That's basically a refusal right there.

More inclined to, not NEVER inclined to. That's not refusal, that's being less likely to.

 

[Rebel_Raven]

More inclined to, not NEVER inclined to. That's not refusal, that's being less likely to.

That's not much better. It would be better to speak up against it and snuff it out before it gets worse. To think otherwise is kind of ridiculous.

Humor me. How would it get worse for guys?

 

[Rebel_Raven]

More inclined to, not NEVER inclined to. That's not refusal, that's being less likely to.

That's not much better. It would be better to speak up against it and snuff it out before it gets worse. To think otherwise is kind of ridiculous.

Humor me. How would it get worse for guys?

I'm speaking in general based on your comment. I sure hope you don't stop speaking up even if you are "inclined" not to.

Noted. I'll speak up as I come across the topics.

 

[WarpedintheHead]

So Rebel Raven what are your thoughts on the idea that the romance genre is the other side of the coin here? That stereotypically it was a female dominated field and had male sexual objectification? How do you feel about the idea that the main issue here as the more popular focus video games and scifi/fantasy in general were left to geeks and nerds deliberately by the majority of women and a good potion of men who considered it weird and worth of ridicule? Or how about the unfair stigma placed on the genre until the last decade?

 

[WarpedintheHead]

It's a shame Rebel Raven seemed to have missed my posts entirely.As it is a shame no one wants to comment on the fact that women do have a genre where sexual objectification of men occurs.

Another thing is to point a tricker subject to handle. And that subject has a perfect example in its most recent successful franchise....Twilight.


Twilight is not very feminist friendly. It has Edward Cullen engaging in extremely possessive and stalker like acts, and Bella Swan is not a good female roll model.

But it was written by a woman for women and was far more popular and in fact a sensation in the western world with women then it would ever be with men.

However I do think a part of the reason why women still enjoyed this despite the real lack of agency in the series is the fact that they did realize it was not real and a fantasy. The fantastical elements allowed Edward's actions to come across as they were intended, romantically, instead of creepy. And if girls and women can understand that difference between real life morals and harmless fantasy, then boys and men can as well.

 

[Rebel_Raven]

So Rebel Raven what are your thoughts on the idea that the romance genre is the other side of the coin here? That stereotypically it was a female dominated field and had male sexual objectification? How do you feel about the idea that the main issue here as the more popular focus video games and scifi/fantasy in general were left to geeks and nerds deliberately by the majority of women and a good potion of men who considered it weird and worth of ridicule? Or how about the unfair stigma placed on the genre until the last decade?

It might've helped if you quoted me at all. Thread's been quiet a while so I left it alone.

Your argument is entirely unfair on so many levels.

You're taking a genre of novels, separating it from every other genre of novels, and comparing it to a media in it's entirity in videogames.
Novels have a long long history of objectifying women. They also objectify everyone for the most part. They are the way they're written, and that won't vary from copy of the book to copy of the book aside from a few genres like pick your own adventure, or something.

Male/female only protagonists aren't a genre. If they were, I'd have an easier time finding female only protagonsit games, and games with gender select. The objectification, idealization, allowed agency, and the general problems both male characters, and female characters have (some shared, but for the most part they are dififrent problems, and unequal IMO.) goes across every genre of gaming from sci-fi to romance to sports to FPS to TPS to racing, and so forth.

If you didn't limit it to one genre we'd have something to talk about that was fair, but, well, I'd say novels suffer a lot of the problems videogames do.

Videogames do have a Romance Genre, but it's largely unknown to me as it's largely in asian languages, and on PC. I can't comment all too well, but odds are, yes there's the same objectification towards men... then again do dating sims count? If so, then it's still hugely slanted against women as most dating sim protagonsits are men AFAIK. This gets compounded by the fact that a lot of porn games are in the dating sim format.

Videogames seem like an extension from Dungeons and Dragons, table top games, and card games to me. Largely something men did in groups, exluded women, and generally set the tone for videogame. Seen as toys and, and immature medium that society as a whole looked down on because adults shouldn't be playing at all, as opposed to working, and being responsible!

Videogames have also long been viewed as "toys" and thus a matter of immaturity. Women generally mature faster, and were/are expected to be more mature, so they were generally pressured to avoid playing them. They still are. Something of a secret shame like grown men watching cartoons, and playing with toys or something. The whole "They aren't dolls, they're action figures" thing of old comes to mind.

Pressure to be seen as "mature" is lifting on women, it seems, or videogames are being more and more respected as a more mature media that there's more female gamers coming out of the shadows, though.

Lets not forget the extremely toxic environment women face in videogames today. Especially in insult heavy games like FPS games, and other highly compeditive games. It's by no means limited to that, though. No doubt they've dealt with that in other gaming communities.
Anonyminity is a ticket to be utter bastards for some. It's not limited to men, either. There are women who troll, and such, though, but it seems rarer.

Lets not discount other areas of gaming that aren't too welcoming of women, and those who speak up about the inequities they face, like threads like these. Anita, and even our own Jim are taking flak for standing up for women in games by people who're defending the status quo. Spend some time in that field, and you'll understand some of the slings, and arrows people will loose in your direction.

The industry itself is filled with sexist, preconceived notions towards men, and women, but that's across businesses in general, I'm sure. http://www.nbcnews.com/technology/women-use-twitter-expose-video-game-industry-sexism-1C7283842

P.S. It's kinda funny if I think about it. As popular as Twilight is, I've never heard of a videogame based on the franchise, and long running franchises like Lord of the Rings, and Harry Potter are no stranger to videogame adaptations.

 

[WarpedintheHead]

You're taking a genre of novels, separating it from every other genre of novels, and comparing it to a media in it's entirity in videogames.
Novels have a long long history of objectifying women. They also objectify everyone for the most part. They are the way they're written, and that won't vary from copy of the book to copy of the book aside from a few genres like pick your own adventure, or something.

Books are the very start of the genres that come from them. There is no difference really except of course the meduim it works in. And the romance genre itself is not only just as large as the scifi/fantasy its more available as well. Every shopping center from Dollar General to Walmart is going to carry a book shelf with a fair number of romance books and maybe a few more popular young adult/scifi books.

And so you admit male sexual objectification does exist in the romance genre? The only real difference here is one has become more popular, but that is to the credit of the people working on said genre, not to say romance genre is inherently any better.

Male/female only protagonists aren't a genre. If they were, I'd have an easier time finding female only protagonsit games, and games with gender select. The objectification, idealization, allowed agency, and the general problems both male characters, and female characters have (some shared, but for the most part they are dififrent problems, and unequal IMO.) goes across every genre of gaming from sci-fi to romance to sports to FPS to TPS to racing, and so forth.

Until recently however both cartoons and video games were considered genres however with rather strict rules on what could be done for them. Cartoons were for kids and needed to be censored and give out aesops. And video games were for nerds or at best some games were considered for a more varied audience such as racing or sports games. There were made on genre assumptions and until very recently historically speaking are we seeing the branching out that other places like japan have enjoyed for decades. And this is just as the fault of the female population of the western world as it was the male. With women only now reconizing the meduim as variable for their interests. But this is not the way to do it.

Videogames do have a Romance Genre, but it's largely unknown to me as it's largely in asian languages, and on PC. I can't comment all too well, but odds are, yes there's the same objectification towards men... then again do dating sims count? If so, then it's still hugely slanted against women as most dating sim protagonsits are men AFAIK. This gets compounded by the fact that a lot of porn games are in the dating sim format.

Well the most important fact to remember about asian material such anime and video games is that the japanese have long considered it a meduim able to reach just about every sub-culture in japan with office wagslave manga and a varied of women oriented franchises. However this is not really tapped all that much for an english market. So any assumptions you make on who is more represented with anime and japanese video games is imbalanced by the demands on its western consumers. I only know of one blog who even covers the wealth of female reverse harem games in english.

Videogames have also long been viewed as "toys" and thus a matter of immaturity. Women generally mature faster, and were/are expected to be more mature, so they were generally pressured to avoid playing them. They still are. Something of a secret shame like grown men watching cartoons, and playing with toys or something. The whole "They aren't dolls, they're action figures" thing of old comes to mind.

However even men were supposed to give up said "toys" and were harassed and redicule when they did not. Men were still considered to leave said things behind and "mature" into sports loving hard working wage slaves. And men who continued to enjoy this after the cut off period were consider by societal standards to be weird and worthy of redicule. Women exp helped in this regard. They were just as quick as men to insult and belittle people who liked this stuff as any men was if not to a worse degree. The irony being that even these "mature" boys and girls were hardly mature at all. And these girls really hurt the idea of female gamers, as they were emotionally blackmailed into given up there interests even more then the boys were.

But that isn't the video game industries fault.

Lets not forget the extremely toxic environment women face in videogames today. Especially in insult heavy games like FPS games, and other highly compeditive games. It's by no means limited to that, though. No doubt they've dealt with that in other gaming communities.
Anonyminity is a ticket to be utter bastards for some. It's not limited to men, either. There are women who troll, and such, though, but it seems rarer.

FPS gaming chat is highly toxic to begin with its just as bad to anyone there who doesn't enjoy it (which is most people). Its not a unique enviroment to female gamers. It doesn't matter what your gender or race is. So any consideration of it needs to be universal, and not as a solely female player based problem. Its a problem for everyone. Not a single group.

The industry itself is filled with sexist, preconceived notions towards men, and women, but that's across businesses in general, I'm sure. http://www.nbcnews.com/technology/women-use-twitter-expose-video-game-industry-sexism-1C7283842

I'm sorry, but do you have any evidence that isn't so vague and anecdotal?

P.S. It's kinda funny if I think about it. As popular as Twilight is, I've never heard of a videogame based on the franchise, and long running franchises like Lord of the Rings, and Harry Potter are no stranger to videogame adaptations.

Not really, twilight is considered for women mainly and lets face facts women have historically speaking shown no interest in buying video games. Even considering this recent discussion an interest in women gaming there is hardly any way to tell how the majority of women would flock to a video game franchise. And most video game makers are hard at work making things they wnjoy making for a fanbase that they know will buy it.

 

[Rebel_Raven]

You're taking a genre of novels, separating it from every other genre of novels, and comparing it to a media in it's entirity in videogames.
Novels have a long long history of objectifying women. They also objectify everyone for the most part. They are the way they're written, and that won't vary from copy of the book to copy of the book aside from a few genres like pick your own adventure, or something.

Books are the very start of the genres that come from them. There is no difference really except of course the meduim it works in. And the romance genre itself is not only just as large as the scifi/fantasy its more available as well. Every shopping center from Dollar General to Walmart is going to carry a book shelf with a fair number of romance books and maybe a few more popular young adult/scifi books.

And so you admit male sexual objectification does exist in the romance genre? The only real difference here is one has become more popular, but that is to the credit of the people working on said genre, not to say romance genre is inherently any better.

Male/female only protagonists aren't a genre. If they were, I'd have an easier time finding female only protagonsit games, and games with gender select. The objectification, idealization, allowed agency, and the general problems both male characters, and female characters have (some shared, but for the most part they are dififrent problems, and unequal IMO.) goes across every genre of gaming from sci-fi to romance to sports to FPS to TPS to racing, and so forth.

Until recently however both cartoons and video games were considered genres however with rather strict rules on what could be done for them. Cartoons were for kids and needed to be censored and give out aesops. And video games were for nerds or at best some games were considered for a more varied audience such as racing or sports games. There were made on genre assumptions and until very recently historically speaking are we seeing the branching out that other places like japan have enjoyed for decades. And this is just as the fault of the female population of the western world as it was the male. With women only now reconizing the meduim as variable for their interests. But this is not the way to do it.

Videogames do have a Romance Genre, but it's largely unknown to me as it's largely in asian languages, and on PC. I can't comment all too well, but odds are, yes there's the same objectification towards men... then again do dating sims count? If so, then it's still hugely slanted against women as most dating sim protagonsits are men AFAIK. This gets compounded by the fact that a lot of porn games are in the dating sim format.

Well the most important fact to remember about asian material such anime and video games is that the japanese have long considered it a meduim able to reach just about every sub-culture in japan with office wagslave manga and a varied of women oriented franchises. However this is not really tapped all that much for an english market. So any assumptions you make on who is more represented with anime and japanese video games is imbalanced by the demands on its western consumers. I only know of one blog who even covers the wealth of female reverse harem games in english.

Videogames have also long been viewed as "toys" and thus a matter of immaturity. Women generally mature faster, and were/are expected to be more mature, so they were generally pressured to avoid playing them. They still are. Something of a secret shame like grown men watching cartoons, and playing with toys or something. The whole "They aren't dolls, they're action figures" thing of old comes to mind.

However even men were supposed to give up said "toys" and were harassed and redicule when they did not. Men were still considered to leave said things behind and "mature" into sports loving hard working wage slaves. And men who continued to enjoy this after the cut off period were consider by societal standards to be weird and worthy of redicule. Women exp helped in this regard. They were just as quick as men to insult and belittle people who liked this stuff as any men was if not to a worse degree. The irony being that even these "mature" boys and girls were hardly mature at all. And these girls really hurt the idea of female gamers, as they were emotionally blackmailed into given up there interests even more then the boys were.

But that isn't the video game industries fault.

Lets not forget the extremely toxic environment women face in videogames today. Especially in insult heavy games like FPS games, and other highly compeditive games. It's by no means limited to that, though. No doubt they've dealt with that in other gaming communities.
Anonyminity is a ticket to be utter bastards for some. It's not limited to men, either. There are women who troll, and such, though, but it seems rarer.

FPS gaming chat is highly toxic to begin with its just as bad to anyone there who doesn't enjoy it (which is most people). Its not a unique enviroment to female gamers. It doesn't matter what your gender or race is. So any consideration of it needs to be universal, and not as a solely female player based problem. Its a problem for everyone. Not a single group.

The industry itself is filled with sexist, preconceived notions towards men, and women, but that's across businesses in general, I'm sure. http://www.nbcnews.com/technology/women-use-twitter-expose-video-game-industry-sexism-1C7283842

I'm sorry, but do you have any evidence that isn't so vague and anecdotal?

P.S. It's kinda funny if I think about it. As popular as Twilight is, I've never heard of a videogame based on the franchise, and long running franchises like Lord of the Rings, and Harry Potter are no stranger to videogame adaptations.

Not really, twilight is considered for women mainly and lets face facts women have historically speaking shown no interest in buying video games. Even considering this recent discussion an interest in women gaming there is hardly any way to tell how the majority of women would flock to a video game franchise. And most video game makers are hard at work making things they wnjoy making for a fanbase that they know will buy it.

So what you're saying is that just because the majority of a single genre of novels objectifies men, it's okay for videogames as a whole to do it to women across all genres of videogames?
You do know that James Bond started off as novels, and no doubt there are still novel adaptations of current movies, right? It's basically a male romance novel under an action/mystery/suspense genre thanks to the bond girls. And James Bond is a very small slice of the larger world of novels that don't include the Romance Genre.

The -real- difference is that men get glorified and idealized in other genres of novels. They get the same treatment in the majority of videogames, too.

Your whole point of it happening in a very tight grouping doesn't hold up vs videogames as a whole. It's not fair to compare a genre to an entire medium at all, and yet you persist.
It's a ludicrous notion to compare a fraction to a whole, and it doesn't defend the status quo of the gaming industry in the slightest! You're simply not going to sell me on the notion that it's fair.

I've little doubt that romance novels have also expanded to cover some LGBT themes. Moreover, like I said, James Bond, and similar novels no doubt constitute as something of a male romance genre thanks to love interests, and the fact that James Bond is an infamous womanizer. He's basically the objectified guy but in an idealized role.

Videogames are the very start of the FPS genre as books are the start to the romance genre.

Videogames may have been a "genre" of gaming back when they were considered toys, and games, but they're more a medium onto themselves lately, and have matured considerably, IMO. Just nowhere near enough to the point that they're equitable to the female audience.
Cartoons are a genre of television shows.
There's the diffirence.

So you admit there's an imbalance in videogames? <.<

At least you recognize that women were "emotionally blackmailed" to avoid videogames.
I have to wonder if the marketing of videogames might have lended to the stigma that videogames were toys at the time, though? It might still be the industry's fault even way back then. The consumers definitely bought into it.

It's not just FPS games where women face a toxic environment. I just used it as a more popular example. If there's multiplayer, and an option to pick a gender there's likely to be a diffirent treatment of male, and female avatars for better or worse.
Playstation home is very much not a FPS, and I'd say anyone that spends time in the guise of a female without broadcasting they're a guy will likely find the toxic nature female gamers face. The climate was a -lot- worse in the earlier days towards female avatars.
Even if a guy broadcasts they're a guy in a female avatar there's no doubt going to be an eventual backlash from people who don't appreciate the notion at all. I've seen it often asked why men play as women by people who don't understand, or care to understand. Some even get outright hostile over the matter.
Odds are good,IMO, that similar genres of Videogames will illustrate a similar treatment of the female avatar.

Vague and antecdotal? I trust the people that spoke out in the article over you by leagues, honestly. I trust the people that experience it first hand over the people trying to dismiss it, and likely never had to deal with it, nor have any apparent empathy over it.
I definitely trust DontnoD, and Naugty Dog, and Ken Levine over people trying to sweep the issue under the rug.
To put statements like that out there leaves one open to scandal if it weren't true.

Times are changing. Girl gamers are buying games out in the open thanks to the loss of effectiveness of emotional blackmail over it. I've personally seen a woman who's old enough to be my mother buying games in gamestop. It was pretty awesome, IMO.

The historical "fact" you state is a joke as I've spent decades gaming, and know several girls that have spent a fair chunk of their life gaming.
That "fact" that women haven't been interested in buying games might have something to do with them doing it in secret, and proxy thanks to the emotional blackmail you touched on earlier.

And while most videogame developers are working on something the audience might enjoy, you're overlooking those who's works are being denied simply on the basis that there's a female protagonist. Women, regardless of their roles get relegated to the back of the box, out of sight, and out of mind.
We won't know if women, or men will flock to games with female protagonsits until those games get produced -and- marketed similarly to male only protagonist games, and I'd hope that the game isn't niche as all get out.
But lets not overlook the fact that Femshep has become something of an icon in the gaming industry. The popularity of some female protagonists, and the popularity of topics like this have got to say something about the possibility of the consumer being open to a female protagonist.

If there are consumers who aren't open to female protagonists, well, that's on them.

Even if you do consider it some fair trade that men get objectified in Romance novels, and women get objectified in videogames as a whole, it's certainly not fair.
Thing is, though, this topic is about videogames, and the inequities women face in videogames in general. There's nothing fair about it.

 

[mecegirl]

The romance genre as a comparison doesn't add up to me simply because of the context. This goes deeper than women like romance, men like action, and so they sexualze each other within their perspective genres because that's what people do.

First of all it should be noted that both men and women are sexualized in romance novels, even on the covers. Go to Google, type in romance novel, and then look at the covers. You will see a few pictures of shirtless men, but you will also see a man and a woman embracing like they are seconds away from sucking each others face off(in some cases it looks like they are getting it on with their clothes still on)...and that leads to context. These are stories about love and a lot of the time sex. At what point would it be logical to assume that a story about love and sex wouldn't have sexulized imagery? That's the whole point of the story is it not?

With video games of the action adventure, sci fi/fantasy genres love and sex may be a part of the story, but it is at best a secondary plot. And so seeing sexulized images within the story of such video games while sex/romance isn't happening is jarring and unnecesary. It's one thing if the chracters are in the middle of flirting or whatever, its another when she's supposed to be in the middle of a gunfight but the camera is focused on her posterior.

 

[WarpedintheHead]

The romance genre as a comparison doesn't add up to me simply because of the context. This goes deeper than women like romance, men like action, and so they sexualze each other within their perspective genres because that's what people do.

First of all it should be noted that both men and women are sexualized in romance novels, even on the covers. Go to Google, type in romance novel, and then look at the covers. You will see a few pictures of shirtless men, but you will also see a man and a woman embracing like they are seconds away from sucking each others face off(in some cases it looks like they are getting it on with their clothes still on)...and that leads to context. These are stories about love and a lot of the time sex. At what point would it be logical to assume that a story about love and sex wouldn't have sexulized imagery? That's the whole point of the story is it not?

With video games of the action adventure, sci fi/fantasy genres love and sex may be a part of the story, but it is at best a secondary plot. And so seeing sexulized images within the story of such video games while sex/romance isn't happening is jarring and unnecesary. It's one thing if the chracters are in the middle of flirting or whatever, its another when she's supposed to be in the middle of a gunfight but the camera is focused on her posterior.

The focus is clearly on the man as an object however. If I could post pictures I would, the man is even naked on some covers, and often not showing his face at all. Thing is I would agree with you as the fact is just like boys and the video games these are women fantasies of what they want to be like and why they look no different then men's fantasy women? Because they is very little difference between what we want to be and what the other gender generally views as sexy.

But to claim it objectifies both is to spite in the face of Jimquisition's original argument, and to claim its different when women do it.

As for the story itself and the romance....Sometimes. Other times it is a cheap reverse male harem story where the girl sleeps with an expanded male harem. Like say Anita Blake series for instance.


And yes the same thing with the "focus on her butt" also happens on romance covers, like say a man about to drown on a ship with it focused on his chest.

 

[WarpedintheHead]

So what you're saying is that just because the majority of a single genre of novels objectifies men, it's okay for videogames as a whole to do it to women across all genres of videogames?

The most important thing to take from this is the fact that Jim's original arguement is that sexual objectification of men does happen, just in places where women are generally known to make stories. It's illogical to ignore that fact when talking about one part of our culture that typically women ignored.

The -real- difference is that men get glorified and idealized in other genres of novels. They get the same treatment in the majority of videogames, too.

I'm going to assume you mean as opposed to how women are treated in the same games, and the misandry implied here is not intended?

Your whole point of it happening in a very tight grouping doesn't hold up vs videogames as a whole. It's not fair to compare a genre to an entire medium at all, and yet you persist.
It's a ludicrous notion to compare a fraction to a whole, and it doesn't defend the status quo of the gaming industry in the slightest! You're simply not going to sell me on the notion that it's fair.

As I pointed out video games was as a whole were consider for boys and this is somerthing you knew growing up in the western world. I would just argue this had little to do with the people who enjoyed and worked at said games as much as the people who critized them till now.

I've little doubt that romance novels have also expanded to cover some LGBT themes. Moreover, like I said, James Bond, and similar novels no doubt constitute as something of a male romance genre thanks to love interests, and the fact that James Bond is an infamous womanizer. He's basically the objectified guy but in an idealized role.

Videogames are the very start of the FPS genre as books are the start to the romance genre.

I disagree, I do not see the logic in ignoring the fact that till very recently video games were considered toys.

Videogames may have been a "genre" of gaming back when they were considered toys, and games, but they're more a medium onto themselves lately, and have matured considerably, IMO. Just nowhere near enough to the point that they're equitable to the female audience.
Cartoons are a genre of television shows.
There's the diffirence.

Incorrect, animations are a medium and just like in japan can tell any story and american producers have been trying to get out of the cartoon ghetto since the very start of the meduim which things like Heavy Metal and early cartoons like DnD.

However this is a perfect example of western mentaility here. To you its a genre and therefore you have decided what is ok for it. When hard working people expand that into a meduim you suddenly complain about it despite the origins of the genre.

"Why are the majority of animation geared towards kids? Why isn't there more animation geared towards my tastes already? Clearly there is an imbalance at work here."

Its not surprising that an expanding meduim has stuff for the people who worked on long before it became popular and the people who bought them. And not surprising not much for the people who didn't.

So you admit there's an imbalance in videogames? <.<

As much as looking at one side of a coin and complaining why its always heads.
Or ignoring a room full of games and coming back later to wonder "why aren't there more games for me?"

At least you recognize that women were "emotionally blackmailed" to avoid videogames.

By other women, yes.

I have to wonder if the marketing of videogames might have lended to the stigma that videogames were toys at the time, though? It might still be the industry's fault even way back then. The consumers definitely bought into it.

Historical revisioning at its finest. Are you ignoring the fact these meduims were highly regulated by the public conscious and heavily monitered it took decades to get to the point where we are today. If you do not know anything about the history of video games and other genres were are talking about, how can you argue anything of real fact?

It's not just FPS games where people face a toxic environment.

Fixed for you.

I just used it as a more popular example. If there's multiplayer, and an option to pick a gender there's likely to be a diffirent treatment of male, and female avatars for better or worse.
Playstation home is very much not a FPS, and I'd say anyone that spends time in the guise of a female without broadcasting they're a guy will likely find the toxic nature female gamers face. The climate was a -lot- worse in the earlier days towards female avatars.
Even if a guy broadcasts they're a guy in a female avatar there's no doubt going to be an eventual backlash from people who don't appreciate the notion at all. I've seen it often asked why men play as women by people who don't understand, or care to understand. Some even get outright hostile over the matter.
Odds are good,IMO, that similar genres of Videogames will illustrate a similar treatment of the female avatar.

Not everywhere, I know a person who pretends to be an actually girl in mmo's because he didn't tell people he was male, and not only got preferential treatment, but free shit.

Vague and antecdotal? I trust the people that spoke out in the article over you by leagues, honestly. I trust the people that experience it first hand over the people trying to dismiss it, and likely never had to deal with it, nor have any apparent empathy over it.
I definitely trust DontnoD, and Naugty Dog, and Ken Levine over people trying to sweep the issue under the rug.
To put statements like that out there leaves one open to scandal if it weren't true.

Trust wasn't the issue as much as the lack of hard facts. Take for example the desk one, well obvoiusly her co-workers knew her job, so who was thinking she was a secertary? People visting? and yes the majority of walk in desks are secretorally and I would assume any front dest is essentially a secertary. Male or female. As such its terribly hard to conclude much of value from the texts. Outside of unfair stuff happening to some people in the same field.

Times are changing. Girl gamers are buying games out in the open thanks to the loss of effectiveness of emotional blackmail over it. I've personally seen a woman who's old enough to be my mother buying games in gamestop. It was pretty awesome, IMO.

Kinda like watching the same woman buying hentai at a video store I imagine.

The historical "fact" you state is a joke as I've spent decades gaming, and know several girls that have spent a fair chunk of their life gaming.
That "fact" that women haven't been interested in buying games might have something to do with them doing it in secret, and proxy thanks to the emotional blackmail you touched on earlier.

Your right, but that wasn't by the people that either made the games nor bought them. It was made by people who dismissed the meduim and the genre. If anything its to the crediut of the people who make these games that people are breaking down their preconceived

And while most videogame developers are working on something the audience might enjoy, you're overlooking those who's works are being denied simply on the basis that there's a female protagonist. Women, regardless of their roles get relegated to the back of the box, out of sight, and out of mind.
We won't know if women, or men will flock to games with female protagonsits until those games get produced -and- marketed similarly to male only protagonist games, and I'd hope that the game isn't niche as all get out.
But lets not overlook the fact that Femshep has become something of an icon in the gaming industry. The popularity of some female protagonists, and the popularity of topics like this have got to say something about the possibility of the consumer being open to a female protagonist.

Except it has been done and generally not so much. One could argue maybe bioware games but they give you an option. Lara Croft games are a heavy hitter but I doubt you want to acknowledge that. And there are plenty of games with women protags that do well or bomb. Now i would agree with you but its not surprising that giving the origins of the genre there are predominate male driven, and that the need to make more female games is probably going to be up to that new generation coming in that wants that type of game.

If there are consumers who aren't open to female protagonists, well, that's on them.

Where a consumer puts their money is not an indication of sexism my friend.

Even if you do consider it some fair trade that men get objectified in Romance novels, and women get objectified in videogames as a whole, it's certainly not fair.

Fairness has nothing to do with it. A person who makes what he or she likes is not responsible for making things for other people on the idea that it is "fair". Exp considering the "unfair" treatment they recieved in the past. A consumer doesn't have to buy something out of "fairness" exp considering their "unfair" treatment in the past. You are coming into a meduim in full bloom here, and had ignored the hard work that it took to get it there. And want someone to make games you like on an issue of "fairness"? Your demands are not fair in the first place.

Thing is, though, this topic is about videogames, and the inequities women face in videogames in general. There's nothing fair about it.

You're right, there is nothing fair in your argument.

 

[mecegirl]

The focus is clearly on the man as an object however. If I could post pictures I would, the man is even naked on some covers, and often not showing his face at all. Thing is I would agree with you as the fact is just like boys and the video games these are women fantasies of what they want to be like and why they look no different then men's fantasy women? Because they is very little difference between what we want to be and what the other gender generally views as sexy.

But to claim it objectifies both is to spite in the face of Jimquisition's original argument, and to claim its different when women do it.

As for the story itself and the romance....Sometimes. Other times it is a cheap reverse male harem story where the girl sleeps with an expanded male harem. Like say Anita Blake series for instance.


And yes the same thing with the "focus on her butt" also happens on romance covers, like say a man about to drown on a ship with it focused on his chest.

Like I said, sometimes the novels do just have scantily clad men on the covers, however they also show scantily clad women on those covers just as often. It is not as if every single cover is just scantily clad men. You can not apply Jim's argument to romance novels. Like you say, if I could post a picture I would, but what do you say to those covers with both a man and a woman on the cover? In what way are the drawings of those women swooning at the guy, with a slit up her skirt to show her legs and her dress pulled down to expose her shoulders and cleavage not sexualized? Like I mentioned before, in some of those covers the pair looks seconds away from sex, how are both the male and female protagonist not sexulized on those covers?

And the thing is...I never claimed that sexulization is somehow different when women do it. That isn't my point,and that is the problem. People keep trying to bring romance novels up as a defense, as if to say "hey women do this too!". They do it because they misunderstand the problem people have about women being sexulized in action based video games. Note I specify action based. There is a clear difference between these genres (action and romance) that is outright ignored when the comparison is made. If I were to make some "It's okay when women do it" type statement it would only be this. At least the Romance genre is in someway about sex. The books go from "Aww look at these two in love" to "Oh yeah these two are about to get it on." That is the main plot. That is the main story. Sometimes it is just pornographic, but at least it is in CONTEXT. This genre that has a large female fan base inserts sex and sexual imagery into stories that are ABOUT sex. "Women" (totally generalizing here)are not inserting their sexual fantasies into their power fantasies when the write/read romance novels. Meanwhile in action oriented genres aimed at men(generalizing again), no one is saying that sexual imagery doesn't have a place, but that that imagery is used in the wrong context sometimes. What is the point of having a sexualized image of a women when she is nowhere near the point of engaging in sexual activities? What purpose does a butt shot have in the middle of a gunfight?

In short it is not "okay when women do it" it is okay when it is done in the proper context. So I must again ask at what point would it be logical to assume that a story about love and sex wouldn't have sexulized imagery? Perhaps it is time to find a different genre to harp on? I'm sure there is a genre somewhere that is the gender flip of the dynamic in action/adventure games. The Romance genre is not it. The Romance genre at times is the gender flip of porn. For instance the Anita Blake series is within the Urban Fantasy genre, not romance. You should direct your criticism to that genre instead. (Though it should be noted that the Blake series did have a major shift from Urban Fantasy to Paranormal Romance as the series wore on.)

 

[Rebel_Raven]

So what you're saying is that just because the majority of a single genre of novels objectifies men, it's okay for videogames as a whole to do it to women across all genres of videogames?

The most important thing to take from this is the fact that Jim's original arguement is that sexual objectification of men does happen, just in places where women are generally known to make stories. It's illogical to ignore that fact when talking about one part of our culture that typically women ignored.

Uhm, I'm not ignoring objectification doesn't happen to men. When the hell did I say that? Nevermind when did I say I didn't care?

Fact is that female protagonists in videogames are being targeted for being kaboshed. Women important to the plot are being targeted for removal from game covers.
http://www.escapistmagazine.com/forums/read/6.404244-Jimquisition-The-Creepy-Cull-of-Female-Protagonists?page=1
http://youtu.be/X6p5AZp7r_Q
http://www.giantbomb.com/sleeping-dogs/3030-29441/

I don't give a damn why those examples happened, it's sexist to treat a gender diffirently for better or worse, even for makreting.
Even in romance novels both the male, and female are often on the cover. In that respect romance novels are more progressive than videogames as a whole.

The -real- difference is that men get glorified and idealized in other genres of novels. They get the same treatment in the majority of videogames, too.

I'm going to assume you mean as opposed to how women are treated in the same games, and the misandry implied here is not intended?

Do I loathe male protagonsits? Nah. I've bought Red Dead Redemption, Batman Arkham City (And asylum is on my list of wants), I'm interested in the new Deadpool game. I respect those properties regardless of the gender of the main protagonist. I especially enjoy Kevin Conroy's roles as Batman, and Mark Hamill's work as Joker. Just gotta say I'd like to see more female protagonsits.
Simple fact is I consider those who have agency in videogames, usually the playable character(s), to be idealized over objectified.

I don't have misandry towards the videogame industry, I just hate the way they're misogynistic. There's women in the gaming industry, too.

I loathe people who defend the sexist status quo in videogames regardless of their gender.

There's no misandry here. Way to jump to conclusions.

If anything, I have misanthropy. Thanks for fueling it by accusing me of misandry, and defending the status quo of the gaming industry, by the way.

Your whole point of it happening in a very tight grouping doesn't hold up vs videogames as a whole. It's not fair to compare a genre to an entire medium at all, and yet you persist.
It's a ludicrous notion to compare a fraction to a whole, and it doesn't defend the status quo of the gaming industry in the slightest! You're simply not going to sell me on the notion that it's fair.

As I pointed out video games was as a whole were consider for boys and this is somerthing you knew growing up in the western world. I would just argue this had little to do with the people who enjoyed and worked at said games as much as the people who critized them till now.

I've little doubt that romance novels have also expanded to cover some LGBT themes. Moreover, like I said, James Bond, and similar novels no doubt constitute as something of a male romance genre thanks to love interests, and the fact that James Bond is an infamous womanizer. He's basically the objectified guy but in an idealized role.

Videogames are the very start of the FPS genre as books are the start to the romance genre.

I disagree, I do not see the logic in ignoring the fact that till very recently video games were considered toys.

Very recently as in something of a decade, or two? In the grand scheme of things, sure, but to a person that's a long time. That's borderline "back in my day!!"

Videogames may have been a "genre" of gaming back when they were considered toys, and games, but they're more a medium onto themselves lately, and have matured considerably, IMO. Just nowhere near enough to the point that they're equitable to the female audience.
Cartoons are a genre of television shows.
There's the diffirence.

Incorrect, animations are a medium and just like in japan can tell any story and american producers have been trying to get out of the cartoon ghetto since the very start of the meduim which things like Heavy Metal and early cartoons like DnD.

However this is a perfect example of western mentaility here. To you its a genre and therefore you have decided what is ok for it. When hard working people expand that into a meduim you suddenly complain about it despite the origins of the genre.

"Why are the majority of animation geared towards kids? Why isn't there more animation geared towards my tastes already? Clearly there is an imbalance at work here."

Its not surprising that an expanding meduim has stuff for the people who worked on long before it became popular and the people who bought them. And not surprising not much for the people who didn't.

I haven't decided anything about what's "okay" for cartoons. I'm well aware of heavy metal, it's sequels, hentai, anime soap operas, King of the Hill, Family Guy, simpsons, and so forth.
But when it's shown on tv, it's a genre of TV shows. When it's a movie it's a genre of movie. When a videogame is shown on any screen be it TV, or an IMAX screen, it's a videogame.

So you admit there's an imbalance in videogames? <.<

As much as looking at one side of a coin and complaining why its always heads.
Or ignoring a room full of games and coming back later to wonder "why aren't there more games for me?"

A "room full" of games? You're kidding me? Are you going to include the games from the 80s, and 90s in that? Games which are likely no longer being produced? Are you going to pull out obscure, and/or foreign games to back up your point?
Compared to the vast amount of male only protagonist games that are avaliable in the past year alone?
Are you going to mount gender select games in your examples where they give you the illusion gender matters at all to the game?
Compared to the simple fact guys don't have to look very far for a male only protagonist game?

At least you recognize that women were "emotionally blackmailed" to avoid videogames.

By other women, yes.

By society. How many dads went out of their way to get a girl a videogame system for their birthday over barbies?
Adding to that, how many of those dads bought a game system for their sons while their daughters got barbies?
And you can't lay the blame on them entirely! Marketing was largely towards boys!

You think guys are universally okay with girl gamers? That'd be a hysterical notion since some aren't even okay with them today.

I have to wonder if the marketing of videogames might have lended to the stigma that videogames were toys at the time, though? It might still be the industry's fault even way back then. The consumers definitely bought into it.

Historical revisioning at its finest. Are you ignoring the fact these meduims were highly regulated by the public conscious and heavily monitered it took decades to get to the point where we are today. If you do not know anything about the history of video games and other genres were are talking about, how can you argue anything of real fact?

Same way you're defending the gaming industry's status quo.
Who says I'm ignoring anything? Did I not say that society had a hand in it? But look at commercials!
http://youtu.be/evI5pF5h8Ck
Granted it got changed, but that was due to the outrage it sparked!
I can argue because you're underestimating me apparently.

It's not just FPS games where people face a toxic environment.

Fixed for you.

I gotta wonder how often males get harassed for their gender. Women get harassed over their gender. That's sexism. Sexism is when people treat a gender worse than another.

I just used it as a more popular example. If there's multiplayer, and an option to pick a gender there's likely to be a diffirent treatment of male, and female avatars for better or worse.
Playstation home is very much not a FPS, and I'd say anyone that spends time in the guise of a female without broadcasting they're a guy will likely find the toxic nature female gamers face. The climate was a -lot- worse in the earlier days towards female avatars.
Even if a guy broadcasts they're a guy in a female avatar there's no doubt going to be an eventual backlash from people who don't appreciate the notion at all. I've seen it often asked why men play as women by people who don't understand, or care to understand. Some even get outright hostile over the matter.
Odds are good,IMO, that similar genres of Videogames will illustrate a similar treatment of the female avatar.

Not everywhere, I know a person who pretends to be an actually girl in mmo's because he didn't tell people he was male, and not only got preferential treatment, but free shit.

I guess it's worth the sexist treatment, and harassment he gets. If he doesn't get any of it, he's a lucky one.

Vague and antecdotal? I trust the people that spoke out in the article over you by leagues, honestly. I trust the people that experience it first hand over the people trying to dismiss it, and likely never had to deal with it, nor have any apparent empathy over it.
I definitely trust DontnoD, and Naugty Dog, and Ken Levine over people trying to sweep the issue under the rug.
To put statements like that out there leaves one open to scandal if it weren't true.

Trust wasn't the issue as much as the lack of hard facts. Take for example the desk one, well obvoiusly her co-workers knew her job, so who was thinking she was a secertary? People visting? and yes the majority of walk in desks are secretorally and I would assume any front dest is essentially a secertary. Male or female. As such its terribly hard to conclude much of value from the texts. Outside of unfair stuff happening to some people in the same field.

Uhm, the woman who complained about being seen as a receptionist stated that the guy she traded desks with wasn't mistaken as a receptionist. It's pretty easy to conclude. Wonderful how you selectively read the post.

Times are changing. Girl gamers are buying games out in the open thanks to the loss of effectiveness of emotional blackmail over it. I've personally seen a woman who's old enough to be my mother buying games in gamestop. It was pretty awesome, IMO.

Kinda like watching the same woman buying hentai at a video store I imagine.

I'm not interested in paying attention to watching people buy hentai. But the woman did ask me my opinion on some Spyro games.

The historical "fact" you state is a joke as I've spent decades gaming, and know several girls that have spent a fair chunk of their life gaming.
That "fact" that women haven't been interested in buying games might have something to do with them doing it in secret, and proxy thanks to the emotional blackmail you touched on earlier.

Your right, but that wasn't by the people that either made the games nor bought them. It was made by people who dismissed the meduim and the genre. If anything its to the crediut of the people who make these games that people are breaking down their preconceived

Preconceived what?

And while most videogame developers are working on something the audience might enjoy, you're overlooking those who's works are being denied simply on the basis that there's a female protagonist. Women, regardless of their roles get relegated to the back of the box, out of sight, and out of mind.
We won't know if women, or men will flock to games with female protagonsits until those games get produced -and- marketed similarly to male only protagonist games, and I'd hope that the game isn't niche as all get out.
But lets not overlook the fact that Femshep has become something of an icon in the gaming industry. The popularity of some female protagonists, and the popularity of topics like this have got to say something about the possibility of the consumer being open to a female protagonist.

Except it has been done and generally not so much. One could argue maybe bioware games but they give you an option. Lara Croft games are a heavy hitter but I doubt you want to acknowledge that. And there are plenty of games with women protags that do well or bomb. Now i would agree with you but its not surprising that giving the origins of the genre there are predominate male driven, and that the need to make more female games is probably going to be up to that new generation coming in that wants that type of game.

As I stated before, games with gender select, while nice, give the illusion gender matters, by and large.
A lot of the voice work is the same for male, and female shepards. While that's some form of equality, it's hard pressed to say it was told from either gender's point of view, and that gender mattered that much to the game by and large.
I'll give them props for the romance bits being so vast, and small wonder Fem-shep is an icon of gaming over her male counterpart, isn't she? Jennifer Hale's practically famous because of her role as female shepard, no?

A lot of female protagonsits get a cult following.

Oh, wow, Lara Croft? Who's been out of action for over a decade until 2013, and some guys have called her something akin to the male Nathan Drake while they're missing out on the fact that she pre-dates him?

Got another example? 3 examples? maybe 4?

I've played the new tomb raider, and loved every second of it short of the frustrating moments of combat. Near cried at the ending. I want more.

ONE example doesn't break the case on my end any mroe than it does for you.

If there are consumers who aren't open to female protagonists, well, that's on them.

Where a consumer puts their money is not an indication of sexism my friend.

Lets be clear. You're defending the status quo of the gaming industry. We aren't even remotely friends. I'm hesitant to consider you an aquaintance.
You're free to have your opinions, but that doesn't mean I have to like you because of them.

Even if you do consider it some fair trade that men get objectified in Romance novels, and women get objectified in videogames as a whole, it's certainly not fair.

Fairness has nothing to do with it. A person who makes what he or she likes is not responsible for making things for other people on the idea that it is "fair". Exp considering the "unfair" treatment they recieved in the past. A consumer doesn't have to buy something out of "fairness" exp considering their "unfair" treatment in the past. You are coming into a meduim in full bloom here, and had ignored the hard work that it took to get it there. And want someone to make games you like on an issue of "fairness"? Your demands are not fair in the first place.

A person makes what he, or she likes, but that sure doesn't mean it gets produced. When things aren't produced based on the gender of the main character, that's sexist.

Thing is, though, this topic is about videogames, and the inequities women face in videogames in general. There's nothing fair about it.

You're right, there is nothing fair in your argument.

Oiy vey, if you're not willing to budge in your argument, then there's simply no point in talking to you. I'm not going to budge either.

 

[WarpedintheHead]

Uhm, I'm not ignoring objectification doesn't happen to men. When the hell did I say that? Nevermind when did I say I didn't care?

First off that is exactly what this thread is about. Second I asked you for your opinion on it in my first post to you. This thread is about male and I would suggest female objectification as well given the parallels and differences of between sexual objectification and empowerment when we look at it.

Fact is that female protagonists in videogames are being targeted for being kaboshed. Women important to the plot are being targeted for removal from game covers.
http://www.escapistmagazine.com/forums/read/6.404244-Jimquisition-The-Creepy-Cull-of-Female-Protagonists?page=1
http://youtu.be/X6p5AZp7r_Q
http://www.giantbomb.com/sleeping-dogs/3030-29441/

I can not comment on something I have not studied in depth nor inside the boundries of this conversation.

I don't give a damn why those examples happened, it's sexist to treat a gender diffirently for better or worse, even for makreting.
Even in romance novels both the male, and female are often on the cover. In that respect romance novels are more progressive than videogames as a whole.

Actually the progressive movement in the romance genre would be to allow more men in there, but much like video games of a decade ago are still considered for women and are made for women ideas. Not that some urban fantasy and others don't exist that bridge the gender gap. But its pretty much stuck where the video game industry was three decades ago.

I don't see how proggressive a romance genre is solely because from its inception it cattered to women's needs because that is what it was made to do. By that logic video games are progressive as they need to be for having men on the cover. Thats not making much sense.

Do I loathe male protagonsits? Nah. I've bought Red Dead Redemption, Batman Arkham City (And asylum is on my list of wants), I'm interested in the new Deadpool game. I respect those properties regardless of the gender of the main protagonist. I especially enjoy Kevin Conroy's roles as Batman, and Mark Hamill's work as Joker. Just gotta say I'd like to see more female protagonsits.
Simple fact is I consider those who have agency in videogames, usually the playable character(s), to be idealized over objectified.

I don't have misandry towards the videogame industry, I just hate the way they're misogynistic. There's women in the gaming industry, too.

Thing is I understand that, however you are denying that just in the last ten years the video game industry was a toy for boys, and that generally female empowerment was in other meduims such as romance or urban fantasy. You are ignoring the past and blaming the present, while not helping the future.

I loathe people who defend the sexist status quo in videogames regardless of their gender.

Seems a quick way to stop conversation if you are going to assume not agreeing with you on something is tandemount to defending sexism.

There's no misandry here. Way to jump to conclusions.

You ok? I was very clear that I wasn't and was giving you the benefit of a doubt.

If anything, I have misanthropy. Thanks for fueling it by accusing me of misandry, and defending the status quo of the gaming industry, by the way.

Be honest know you admitted by your defense that it did sound like you hated male protagonists and I even gave you the benefit of the doubt without jumping to conclusions. So you want to try to insinuate something sinister as a retaliation for your mistake?

But lets be honest here, we don't agree on this matter and I've stated my reasons why, if you can not argue your points rationally and see me as morally wrong and have no reason to debate than to throw opinions at each other till one of us gives up. Maybe I should go?

Very recently as in something of a decade, or two? In the grand scheme of things, sure, but to a person that's a long time. That's borderline "back in my day!!"

maybe at best the last five years. And why you said that? It took 50 years for things to get where they are now. And you only showed interest in the last five years. It took decades of companies, technology, and drive to get where we are at. Do you have any information at all to think that your claim is any more accurate than mine? If I am talking like an old time, then you are talking like a newborn who expects a toy no one has ever made before and expected it yesterday.

I haven't decided anything about what's "okay" for cartoons. I'm well aware of heavy metal, it's sequels, hentai, anime soap operas, King of the Hill, Family Guy, simpsons, and so forth.
But when it's shown on tv, it's a genre of TV shows. When it's a movie it's a genre of movie. When a videogame is shown on any screen be it TV, or an IMAX screen, it's a videogame.

You avoided the point here and I'm not even sure what this is supposed to be about. You avoided issue entirely. Please respond.

A "room full" of games? You're kidding me? Are you going to include the games from the 80s, and 90s in that? Games which are likely no longer being produced? Are you going to pull out obscure, and/or foreign games to back up your point?
Compared to the vast amount of male only protagonist games that are avaliable in the past year alone?
Are you going to mount gender select games in your examples where they give you the illusion gender matters at all to the game?
Compared to the simple fact guys don't have to look very far for a male only protagonist game?

It was a figure of speach raven. Fact is those new games are based on the success of the old ones. This whole new opening is based on the success those creators and consumers did by themselves. Its unfair to ignore the past to complain about the present people like you and me helped create.

By society. How many dads went out of their way to get a girl a videogame system for their birthday over barbies?
Adding to that, how many of those dads bought a game system for their sons while their daughters got barbies?
And you can't lay the blame on them entirely! Marketing was largely towards boys!

And if a boy came to school with a scifi book he was bullied, his book may of been stolen, and the girls outed him as a freak not worth a date and teased him just as bad. And there insults to the girls who liked this stuff was worse. Maybe it was society focus that started it. But every kid in school was its enforcer, and that was more of the fact that kids like to bully. Not that things are better in colleges or the work place right at this moment.

You think guys are universally okay with girl gamers? That'd be a hysterical notion since some aren't even okay with them today.

Please restrain yourself to comments I have actually said and not manufactured please. So you believe in the sterotype of the nerd misanthrobe then hmmm? You think that's acturate? What are you basing this on? Trolls?

Same way you're defending the gaming industry's status quo.
Who says I'm ignoring anything? Did I not say that society had a hand in it? But look at commercials!
http://youtu.be/evI5pF5h8Ck
Granted it got changed, but that was due to the outrage it sparked!
I can argue because you're underestimating me apparently.

So you're the only one who can argue examples from two decades ago? You think my argument is close to "back in my day" but a commercial from the 90s is an example of modern day sexism?

Fixed for you.

I gotta wonder how often males get harassed for their gender. Women get harassed over their gender. That's sexism. Sexism is when people treat a gender worse than another.

I have never heard of anyone thinking sexism is worse than racism before or homophobia. But you see it in those same FPS games.

I guess it's worth the sexist treatment, and harassment he gets. If he doesn't get any of it, he's a lucky one.

I would say that mmos are often quite different forms of harassment then insults like in FPS. And no one I know including myself have ever been insulted in a wide selection in mmos for female avatars or being mistake for a women. Free shit and help yes, but not insults. Then again, we are nice people by nature, and don't often get negative treatment.

Usually its either noobs jokes or griefing on mmos.

Uhm, the woman who complained about being seen as a receptionist stated that the guy she traded desks with wasn't mistaken as a receptionist. It's pretty easy to conclude. Wonderful how you selectively read the post.

By who? And you realize that is pretty random. It does happen that they see male people there. When was this? How long ago? I mean we assume this was a recent event right? And was this vistors or co-workers?

I'm not interested in paying attention to watching people buy hentai. But the woman did ask me my opinion on some Spyro games.

Neither I'm I. I just made a statement. Sexuality is not a sin.

Preconceived what?

My mistake, but was "notions" that hard to figure out?

And while most videogame developers are working on something the audience might enjoy, you're overlooking those who's works are being denied simply on the basis that there's a female protagonist. Women, regardless of their roles get relegated to the back of the box, out of sight, and out of mind.
We won't know if women, or men will flock to games with female protagonsits until those games get produced -and- marketed similarly to male only protagonist games, and I'd hope that the game isn't niche as all get out.
But lets not overlook the fact that Femshep has become something of an icon in the gaming industry. The popularity of some female protagonists, and the popularity of topics like this have got to say something about the possibility of the consumer being open to a female protagonist.

A lot of the voice work is the same for male, and female shepards. While that's some form of equality, it's hard pressed to say it was told from either gender's point of view, and that gender mattered that much to the game by and large.
I'll give them props for the romance bits being so vast, and small wonder Fem-shep is an icon of gaming over her male counterpart, isn't she? Jennifer Hale's practically famous because of her role as female shepard, no?

Alot of voice work isn't needed to be changed for a different gender. However I do not see what this has to do with sexual objectifcation for either sex.

Oh, wow, Lara Croft? Who's been out of action for over a decade until 2013, and some guys have called her something akin to the male Nathan Drake while they're missing out on the fact that she pre-dates him?

Got another example? 3 examples? maybe 4?

Million dollar hit and you want to dismiss it? Becuase some arse on the internet probably baited you talking about Nathan?

I've played the new tomb raider, and loved every second of it short of the frustrating moments of combat. Near cried at the ending. I want more.

ONE example doesn't break the case on my end any mroe than it does for you.

However I did not make the case that the past didn't matter and then used an example from the 90s while dismissing a million unit selling new game.

Lets be clear. You're defending the status quo of the gaming industry. We aren't even remotely friends. I'm hesitant to consider you an aquaintance.
You're free to have your opinions, but that doesn't mean I have to like you because of them.

Missed the point again my friend.

Fairness has nothing to do with it. A person who makes what he or she likes is not responsible for making things for other people on the idea that it is "fair". Exp considering the "unfair" treatment they recieved in the past. A consumer doesn't have to buy something out of "fairness" exp considering their "unfair" treatment in the past. You are coming into a meduim in full bloom here, and had ignored the hard work that it took to get it there. And want someone to make games you like on an issue of "fairness"? Your demands are not fair in the first place.

A person makes what he, or she likes, but that sure doesn't mean it gets produced. When things aren't produced based on the gender of the main character, that's sexist.

I would agree on the case of the video above where the guy wanted a female character. However that doesn't mean I'm sexist for buying games I like either. And no one is making that guy make a female character centered game, he WANTED to make it.

Oiy vey, if you're not willing to budge in your argument, then there's simply no point in talking to you. I'm not going to budge either.

Considering you've almost completely sidestep my talk on female/male sexual objectification to talk about what you want to? I can see that. However skipping over a point doesn't make it go away my friend. It remains for this entire forum to read it.